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forgottenlor
11-03-2008, 17:07
This is a question for anyone who has read the vampire book and has an opinion they`d like to share.

I am thinking about what rare choices I`d like to add to my army. Currently I have 2 banshees, so some wraiths are a given. I will pass on the blood knights, as I don`t like frenzy and don`t plan to spend so much on one unit.

That leaves me with the Varghulf and the black coach. They seem to me to serve very similar roles. Both are vampires, have the same unit strength, movement, and roughly similar damage potential ( I think). I like both models from the photos.

Anyone want to come up with an argument about why one might be better than the other? All opinions are welcome.

EvC
11-03-2008, 17:27
Well the list I'll be using in general has the Varghulf over the Coach, but yesterday I thought I'd stick the Coach into the list instead... and it was fantastic. Sucked up about a dozen of my opponent's magic dice in total (Getting it close to a Slann + Diadem of Power + Skink Priest was quite evil), and it did a lot of damage on top of that, so much so that I think I'd be sticking with it permanently if I hadn't already submitted my campaign list and converted my Vaghulf!

By the time a Black Coach as absorbed four power dice, he's every bit as powerful as the Varghulf, even moreso on the charge. Once you have 5-6 upgrades, it's nigh unstoppable.

Anardakil
11-03-2008, 17:52
Well the Coach won't be half as good against, say Dwarfs or some other army without or with little magic. ;)

EvC
11-03-2008, 18:06
They'll still have power dice to suck up though, even if they never use them :)

W0lf
11-03-2008, 18:40
Varghulf!!!

Shame my army cant fit one in :P

Bleakwood
11-03-2008, 20:13
I use a Varghulf in my army, the only reason being its mobility. A 16" march move in turn 1 makes him an instant pain for the opponent and I use him in tandem with 10 Dire Wolfes who provide the unit strength and flank charges necesary for him to win combats againts primary units. When those two run up the flank, the opponent cannot ignore them.

But I havent actually tried the BC yet, although I plan too. I have barely gotten hold of how to use the Varghulf yet.

Fellblade
11-03-2008, 21:31
Currently I have 2 banshees, so some wraiths are a given. I will pass on the blood knights, as I don`t like frenzy and don`t plan to spend so much on one unit.

In my opinion, to use the wraith units 'right' you need to spend as much as you would for blood knights. 6 wraiths with a banshee is absolutely devastating to most armies. 18 str5 attacks that most units in the game can't touch is brutal.

As for Coach Vs Varghulf, its a tough choice. I usually run out of points before I get to my varghulf so I haven't had a the chance to test it out yet, although I've been meaning to on several occasions. The coach can be great depending on what army you're facing. I have one of each of them and I don't see myself as ever needing more than that. More wraiths on the other hand... that's a different story

Johnnyfrej
11-03-2008, 22:07
They'll still have power dice to suck up though, even if they never use them :)
They can't suck up powerdice if you don't use any Wizards ;)

-Private Jon

Dark_Mage99
11-03-2008, 22:07
I would take the Coach over a Varghulf simply because of the potential to be far, far better. Even without upgrades, it hits harder; and with them is incredibly powerful.

Dark_Mage99
11-03-2008, 22:08
They can't suck up powerdice if you don't use any Wizards ;)

-Private Jon

The Black Coach sucks up basic power dice as well - including your opponents in their own magic phase.

benccowan
11-03-2008, 22:14
i would choose niether.
spend the points on ghouls in exchange for the 5 strengthe 5 attacks and four wounds toughness 4
you get 11 strength 3 poisoned attacks just on the 1st rank with toughnes 4 and 20 wounds
motto: dont limmit your choices just because you have a rare/hero/special slot a unit can do aloy better than one model

Johnnyfrej
11-03-2008, 22:53
The Black Coach sucks up basic power dice as well - including your opponents in their own magic phase.
Fine, I'll just blow it up with my Great Cannons first shooting phase :evilgrin:

-Private Jon

Spoonie
11-03-2008, 22:57
By that rationale there's no reason to take anything but core troops, which just isn't true. You need pressure to point, and both units do that very well. Personally I like the Varghulf because it's faster, but that's just me.

Bleakwood
11-03-2008, 22:57
i would choose niether.
spend the points on ghouls in exchange for the 5 strengthe 5 attacks and four wounds toughness 4
you get 11 strength 3 poisoned attacks just on the 1st rank with toughnes 4 and 20 wounds
motto: dont limmit your choices just because you have a rare/hero/special slot a unit can do aloy better than one model

Actually, a primary reason for including the Varghulf is that I dont include many vamp characters, preferring wight kings for front-line killing. Its speed makes it easy to get its enhancing effect to where it is needed.

benccowan
11-03-2008, 23:05
yes but im just trying to say dont be limmeted it seams to me that he's looking for a rare just because he can i mean the only reason he's choosing the varghulf or bc over the blood nights is due to frenzy and i cant see blood nights going warmachine hunting can you? (i actualy can and its pretty funny and depressing at the same time) i feel the same lure but i think of whats best for my chances of winning not what i want to date ive only used a rare unit in 3 out of about 100 battles

Darnok
11-03-2008, 23:05
Fine, I'll just blow it up with my Great Cannons first shooting phase :evilgrin:

Anybody dumb enough to place his Black Coach in the line of sight of a cannon deserves that. ;)

Bleakwood
11-03-2008, 23:19
yes but im just trying to say dont be limmeted it seams to me that he's looking for a rare just because he can i mean the only reason he's choosing the varghulf or bc over the blood nights is due to frenzy and i cant see blood nights going warmachine hunting can you? (i actualy can and its pretty funny and depressing at the same time) i feel the same lure but i think of whats best for my chances of winning not what i want to date ive only used a rare unit in 3 out of about 100 battles

Sure sure, I understood your point just fine, just wanted to point out that its Vampire rule is also of benefit under some circumstances.

Except for that I totally agree about the tactical aspect. Personally I am a sucker for centre-pieces and need at last one. I'm working on a new army without it so I can include my beloved Maneaters which should be very interresting in a VC army, but I find it hard to let the varghulf go...and I converted and painted it. Oh the humanity!!

benccowan
11-03-2008, 23:28
yes the same can be said for my blacknights i find it impossible to avoid them :D

Fellblade
11-03-2008, 23:56
They can't suck up powerdice if you don't use any WizardsEverybody has two power dice in their own magic phase, even if they never use them. (ie. dwarves, Tomb kings)

Yhcrana
12-03-2008, 00:06
I really like both the varghulf and the black coach and would like to put both in my 2k army.

Of course after buying 4 vampires and 3 core I don't have a huge amount of points left so its going to be tricky fitting both in.

zak
12-03-2008, 01:47
The black coach is far better now in the 7th edition and with the improved ward and not being a large target is a bit more resistant. Add to that the new improved upgrades and it's hard to leave behind.

Petey
12-03-2008, 02:37
@Fellblade . Fell, dude, the coach's wording says it can only steal from enemy wizards, not the table.

Fellblade
12-03-2008, 02:47
No, read it again. Evocation of Death says at the start of every magic phase, roll all the dice in the power pool, AND of each wizard within its (small) range. The person who's turn it is has the power pool, the opposite player has the dispel pool. Everyone generates 2 power dice base on their turns and 2 dispel dice on their opponent's turn. So yes, no matter who you're playing at least two dice will be rolled in all 12 magic phases of the game, assuming there's at least one coach that survives the whole game.

Mireadur
12-03-2008, 03:13
I havent read the book yet, but from your comments it looks like many units went through a big revamp, and they appear to be quite interesting and different from what they used to.

One thing i like is that you guys seem to have plenty rare choices, its always great having to choose and not being able to field everything in every game.

Kerill
12-03-2008, 04:16
Against a gunline either is going to have trouble surviving although the fact the coach is no longer a large target (dwarven ballistae) helps somewhat. T6 4+ ward and 3+ save help a lot as does becoming ethereal after sucking five dice. The coach also causes massive damage on the charge with impact hits and 5 attacks and can potentially break a unit on the charge which the varghulf can't.

The coach is particularly good against anyoe without cannons and tore my high elf line apart the other day.

Even against cannons they aren't guaranteed to hit, you have the chance of the ward and it means those cannons aren't hitting your vampire lord with his measly saves. If the coach starts off near a vamp lord and another vamp you are looking at up to 10 dice that can be sucked in per turn plus two in your opponents phase, your opponent has to target the coach first because when it becomes ethereal there is very little that can harm it, unlike the varghulf.

123DeMaere
12-03-2008, 04:17
Look its very simple. The Coach is a strong and possibly hard-hitting unit that needs alittle support(magic or a flanker). The Varghulf is a support unit that can help fast unit march and kill war machines and sometimes help in (close but,) important battles. My vote is for the Coach! Against armies with no wizards AND alot of war machines (aka Dwarfs and someone playing another army wrong) the varghulf will kick butt. The other 90% of times the Coach is hands down better:

-better toughness and 3+ armour make it able to take alot more firepower.

-impact hits mean that it can charge a unit of 20 strong infany and actually win (Varghulf can only tie if he hits and wounds with everything, then lose because of musician)

- a couple of power dice(on average 3 turns the way I play him) and he is a scary *&%$er.

Basically it can't march. thats the only really big thing unless your fighting Dwarfs or Empire (and doing d6 or d3 wounds anyway it means a war machine will have to hit a Varghulf twice instead of once(or once if your lucky))

EvC
12-03-2008, 13:37
Yep, the speed of the Vaghulf is really its main selling point compared to the Coach (Though once the Coach gets the ability to fly, all bets are off).

Still, I've not actually used a Vaghulf yet (First time tonight) so who knows, I might come back enthusing on it too ;)

Also: could certain people please stop posting in this thread to "correct" those of us who actually know the Black Coach's abilities...

FurryMiguell
12-03-2008, 13:49
take the coach. mainly because the other one (I shall not mention names) has a retarded name! which makes it obvious why I didnt watn to mantion names:p)

I think the varghulf looks great, but I also think that the name is such a big turnoff that i dont want it for my army...

Cheers:D

forgottenlor
12-03-2008, 15:13
Thanks for all the replies. I think maybe I`ll pick up both of them. I can see how the speed of a Varghulf could be useful in some games, the magic draining effect of the Black Coach in others. To benccowan, my standard game is 2500 points, so I do usually have points for some rares left. By the way my aversion to the blood knights has to do more with their money cost than their point cost. I could buy a black coach and a varghulf and still give out less than for a unit of blood knights.