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WalkerShado
11-03-2008, 21:22
This idea was mentioned in the Vampire Tactica in the Tactics section, but I wanted to rule clerification on this...

For this exsample, I'd like to use the Corpce Cart with a mounter Necromancer in a Unit of Skeletons with spears. The Corpce cart has the base of a Chariot but counts as a monsterous creature.

First off, How dose Ranking work? Can you say put the corpce cart in the middle of the unit with 2 rows of Skeletons on each side? If this dose not work, How do you fit a creature like this into a unit? any wackyness with spears I should be aware of?

Also, could the corpce cart be put in a unit without a Necromancer mounted on it?

Any other weirdness I should be aware of?

Thanks!!

skank
11-03-2008, 21:33
Is the corpsecart a monster mount? It just say it fights and moves as a monster:rolleyes:, nice and clear.

definatly can't join units without a rider though.

WalkerShado
11-03-2008, 21:40
The Necromancer (and Necromancer only) can take the Corpce cart as a mount.

It has multiple wounds like the Abysal terror and Zombie dragon, thus a monsterous mount, correct?

Yade
11-03-2008, 22:22
The only way for a monstrous mount to join a unit is if there is a character riding it. Since characters are FORBIDDEN in zombie units, special zombie rule, I would have to say your necromancer on the corpse cart cannot join them.

WalkerShado
11-03-2008, 22:31
I'm not trying to get the corpce cart in a Zombie unit, I'm trying to put the corpce cart in a Skeleton unit.

I'm not seeing a problem with getting it in there... Just with ranking and such with the cart being so long.

FigureFour
12-03-2008, 00:22
I don't think there's actually a clear answer here.
Some people will let you count it as the number of base "slots" the large base takes up, but there is nothing in the rules explaining how you resolve it.

Strictly speaking you need 5 models in a rank for it to count, and the cart is only one model. However I don't see why it wouldn't count as being one model in each rank it occupies a space in.

Atrahasis
12-03-2008, 00:25
FigureFour's solution is the generally accepted one.

Paging T10 and his patented rank diagram to thread 132357.

Dracosavarian
12-03-2008, 03:11
The Corpse Cart takes up approximately 10 normal Rank and File models worth of space in a Unit. So lets say you stick a Corpse Cart in a Unit of 20 Ghouls. You would have a frontage 6. 2 Ghouls in the front to each side of the corpse cart, each side running 5 deep, 2 wide.

So something like this.

GGCCGG
GGCCGG
GGCCGG
GGCCGG
GGCCGG

G=Ghoul
C=Corpse Cart

That is what the unit would look like exactly. So basically, I'd say for purposes of ranks, you'd get the full ranks bonus. However, you would have a Unit Strength of 24.

WalkerShado
12-03-2008, 05:01
Thanks guys, I didnt exspect that answer, but works for me!

feeder
12-03-2008, 05:10
Monsters cannot join units, sorry. (pg. 58)

WalkerShado
12-03-2008, 05:39
They can if they are mounted with a character.

feeder
13-03-2008, 00:55
They can if they are mounted with a character.

No, sorry. The first rule for monsters state they always fight individually, and then provides an exception to allow a character and a monster to form a single unit of one model together. This does not allow a monster, or a character riding a monster, to join another unit.

Atrahasis
13-03-2008, 01:11
feeder, you're talking tripe.

"they can never join other models to form a unit, except when they are ridden by a character."

Characters on flying monsters cannot join units, but otherwise they're free to do so.

feeder
13-03-2008, 01:32
No, I'm not.

"They" refers to the monster. "Other models" refers to the character.

kris_kapsner
13-03-2008, 02:18
No, I'm not.

"They" refers to the monster. "Other models" refers to the character.

If that were the case, Archeon couldn't join his chaos knights.

feeder
13-03-2008, 02:58
I do not know Archeon and his rules. Must he deploy in a unit of Chaos Knights?

Monsters cannot join units, the Monster Reaction table will create impossible situations if they could.

theunwantedbeing
13-03-2008, 03:10
Page 58 feeder.(rulebook obviously....)

Page 74 for the conditions of character's joining units.

Atrahasis
13-03-2008, 10:26
No, I'm not.You really are.


"They" refers to the monster. "Other models" refers to the character.

"Other models" does not refer to the character, it refers to other models. Characters do not JOIN monsters (and in fact cannot), they are bought together.

I'm not sure that someone who isn't even familiar with Archaon (a character any WHFB player should know) should be arguing so hard.

Spirit
13-03-2008, 11:21
Edited because i messed up and itl confuse people.

Atrahasis
13-03-2008, 11:36
I thought it was on a chariot base?

T10
13-03-2008, 11:57
This is the most correct anwer, exept the cart only takes up 8 spaces (and a bit), not 10, you cant claim 10 spaces just for having a little over 8. You need the full 10.

The cart is extremely hard to fit in place, but it does only take up 8 slots.

Bah! :dismissive hand-wave:

The corpse cart is one model and is only entitled to a single "slot".

-T10

EvC
13-03-2008, 11:57
Yeah, 50mm x 100mm, so a bit wider than 2 models and 5 models deep. So you can claim ten spaces if you really want (Banner of Everliving Dead or whatever the 4-rank bonus banner is called being the only possible "abuse")...

AlexCage
13-03-2008, 14:06
I believe the following provides an answer to this question:
http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/chronicles/assets/Q&A2003.pdf (Bottom of 2nd page)

Granted, it's out of date, but this particular problem has no other clarification, otherwise, and as far as I can tell has not been affected by anything new in 7th ed.

And the Corpse Cart does match up perfectly 5 models deep, I made certain of that before putting them together. So at 12 models you have 4 ranks. Really, how can you beat that for Static CR on the cheap?

Atrahasis
13-03-2008, 14:12
It's not really "on the cheap" since it costs at least 130 points, which is 40 or so points more expensive than the rank and file would be.

Then again, 8 skeletons won't cast spells or generate dispel dice...

AlexCage
13-03-2008, 14:16
Or resurrect themselves or subtract to the casting roll of enemy wizards or give them an extra attack in the magic phase, etc etc.

That was more to the point of "If you're going to bring the Necro on a Cart, it's far more economic to put them in a unit of RnF".

feeder
13-03-2008, 14:46
You really are.

Seriously, I'm not.



"Other models" does not refer to the character, it refers to other models. Characters do not JOIN monsters (and in fact cannot), they are bought together.

First sentance, wrong; second, semantics.


I'm not sure that someone who isn't even familiar with Archaon (a character any WHFB player should know) should be arguing so hard.

Besides the point, but I know of Archaon, I've just never encountered him and I don't know his rules.


Unbreakable Monsters in a unit of RnF creates unresolvable situations. The rules do not allow for Unbreakable/breakable unit types to mix.

Soul of Iron
13-03-2008, 15:29
Feeder, you are ill informed. The CC can join units of skeletons, grave guard, or ghouls.

The rulebook is very clear on this scenario and you are coming across as trolling really.

juample
13-03-2008, 15:45
GGCCGG
GGCCGG
GGCCGG
GGCCGG
GGCCGG

This unit has +3BR.


CCGGG
CCGGG
CCGGG
CCGGG
CC
Really this is the question

Has this unit +3BR?

Atrahasis
13-03-2008, 15:54
Unbreakable Monsters in a unit of RnF creates unresolvable situations. The rules do not allow for Unbreakable/breakable unit types to mix.Who is talking about Unbreakable monsters? Nice red herring, want some butter and toast with that?

Festus
13-03-2008, 18:45
You really are.

Seriously, I'm not.
Most seriously you are...

Go, read the rulebook. :eyebrows:

Most importantly p.7 of the BRB and the following pages which have already been given.
Only characters on flying creatures or on chariots may not join units (while those on chariots may well join chariot units - but this is for TK only at the time of writing).

Festus

devolutionary
13-03-2008, 18:50
The Corpse Cart only takes up one slot in the unit, surely? There are no rules for counting base size as equivalent to X number of troops, it's simply a 1 base, 1 model, no matter the size.

So, allowing C = Corpse, S = Skeleton, X = blank



SSCCSS
xxCCxx
xxCCxx
SSSxSS


2 ranks of 5 models, total 10 models (9 Skeletons, 1 Corpse Cart).

If this is wrong, please find the rule, because it would make a truly MASSIVE difference to my Bretonnian army.

juample
13-03-2008, 19:13
xxCCxx
xxCCxx
SSCCSS
SSSxSS

Why no this way? xD

This is clearly uncovered by rules.

Anyway, there is no rule that states a model cant be in two (or more) ranks at the same time.

devolutionary
13-03-2008, 21:18
Which end is the front of the unit? In my example, the top of the diagram is the front. I put the CC in front because, well, it's habitual, and I believe characters need to go to the front, yeah?

Atrahasis
13-03-2008, 22:22
I believe the top is the front in juample's diagram too.

It's best to use the 6th edition FAQ, and the precedent set by Screaming Bells and Slann. Anything else is ridiculous.

Spirit
14-03-2008, 01:57
Bah! :dismissive hand-wave:

The corpse cart is one model and is only entitled to a single "slot".

-T10

Bah :bigger dismissive hand-wave:

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/chronicles/assets/Q&A2003.pdf

If that had been changed, we'd know about it, and i see no reason to argue with it.,

Masque
14-03-2008, 02:16
And using the first picture example (boy on horse) you can clearly see you only count "full" base widths, so the CC counts as 8, not 10, as 10 is too large for the base, 8 is too small, you accept the smaller amount.

Are you bad at math?

The Corpse Cart is on a chariot base. It's 50mm X 100mm. Skeletons are on 20mm X 20mm bases. Therefore, the CC is 2.5 Skeletons wide and 5 Skeletons deep. You then round that down to 2 Skeletons wide. 2 X 5 = 10, not 8.

neXus6
14-03-2008, 02:23
I really don't like this idea of "discounting part of the base." A chariot base is exactly 2x4 25x25mm infantry bases. But you want to take 2x5 20x20mm bases and have a 10mmx100mm bit spare?

Masque you can't round down in this case because your unit frontage WILL be 10mm bigger and theres no way of stopping that, so surely you have to count it as if it was made of 25x25mm bases.

You want to use the smaller base size for rank, when you MUST use the larger base size for unit frontage. :eyebrows:

theunwantedbeing
14-03-2008, 02:31
A chariot base is 100mm deep and 50mm wide.
A skeleton comes on a 20mm wide by 20mm deep base.
100mm / 20mm = 5
So you can have it 5 models deep just fine.

Problems appear when the unit is more than 6 models deep, as then you get a noticable 10mm wide gap at the edge of the unit at the back.
This doesnt mean you can assume the 20mmx20mm bases aare 25mm bases as then the unit looks even sillier.

Spirit
14-03-2008, 02:31
Sorry masqu, that was being edited as you spoke. Im tired.

Masque
14-03-2008, 02:33
I really don't like this idea of "discounting part of the base." A chariot base is exactly 2x4 25x25mm infantry bases. But you want to take 2x5 20x20mm bases and have a 10mmx100mm bit spare?

Masque you can't round down in this case because your unit frontage WILL be 10mm bigger and theres no way of stopping that, so surely you have to count it as if it was made of 25x25mm bases.

You want to use the smaller base size for rank, when you MUST use the larger base size for unit frontage. :eyebrows:

Most people would round up when using a 40mm square base in a unit of 25mm models and count is as 4 models. (Doombull in Bestigor unit) How is rounding down worse than rounding up?

kris_kapsner
14-03-2008, 02:40
Though I agree in concept with models of wider bases counting as potentially more than one model wide for the necessary frontage to gain rank bonuses, there are no rules that allow this. So, a corpse cart needs to still have 4 other skeletons/models with it per rank in order to gain a rank bonus.

If this weren't the case, then why would ogre models still be required to be 5 MODELS wide to gain a rank bonus even though a unit of elves 5 models wide takes up half the space.

neXus6
14-03-2008, 02:43
Okay masque don't think of it as "rounding up or down."
Use the size that takes up the FULL base so theres no left over bits.

To take your example 25x25 and 20x20 are both legal 1 Rank base sizes, so in a unit with 25x25mm base models a 40x40mm base still takes up 4 legal 1 Rank base size areas...i.e no problem.

But if you "round down," which you cannot do as it IS a 50mm frontage not a 40mm, you are getting extra ranks while keeping the larger frontage, and your just discounting 10x100mm of base, which is equal to 2 and a bit MORE 20mm bases, but you wouldn't count them would you?

@Kris: Units of Monsters do make things more complicated, but in principle if you had 4 ogres and a 20x20mm base human DoW character join it the unit would have "a rank." Similarly if it was 4 models and had a 50x50mm based character join it it would have "a rank." I'd have to say you take the basic base size of the unit and then apply the frontage of the added base to the rank to a minimum of 1 if that makes sense.

It is pretty much the only way to take mixed bases sizes, but thank god it doesn't come up very often. The CC situation is made more complicated cause of the whole 25x25mm bases = 20x20mm bases for ranks and it's divisible by both up one side but only by one along the frontage.

Masque
14-03-2008, 02:50
So, are you then suggesting that the CC should be rounded up to count as 3x5 skeletons? Because that would seem like an equally valid solution to me.

Spirit
14-03-2008, 02:55
Though I agree in concept with models of wider bases counting as potentially more than one model wide for the necessary frontage to gain rank bonuses, there are no rules that allow this. So, a corpse cart needs to still have 4 other skeletons/models with it per rank in order to gain a rank bonus.

If this weren't the case, then why would ogre models still be required to be 5 MODELS wide to gain a rank bonus even though a unit of elves 5 models wide takes up half the space.

Thats fair, hadnt thought of that one

So your saying the front rank would NEED to be:

GGCCGG

And could not be

GGCCG

neXus6
14-03-2008, 03:01
Okay I just realised this is a totally pointless discussion.

As scoring ranks cap at +3, it doesn't matter, if its 4 or 5 ranks deep, your still going to have the same number of models in the unit, your still going to get your +3 until models in the 4th rank die. :p
Go forth and rank them how ever the **** you want!

GG people, we got there in the end. :D

Masque
14-03-2008, 03:06
Terradons are also US 1, they are on 40mm bases. So maybe that Doombull in the Bestigor unit should only count as one model since 40mm = 40mm and Bestigors and Tarradons are both on 40mm bases. How far would you carry this?

The base size and US of other models in other units should have no bearing on how models rank up and count in a unit.

neXus6
14-03-2008, 03:11
Look Up ^^ :)

Though, IF a terradon WAS in a unit of Bestigor it would add 4 spaces of "rank" and 1 US. I never mentioned US, I only mentioned base sizes and how I feel that you should use the size that gives you the full area of the base, this only becomes a "problem" when its a base size divisible by 25 AND 20 though. :p

When -> FAQ, look at page 2 for the monsters in ranks bit. (http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/chronicles/assets/Q&A2003.pdf)
was done chariot bases didn't exist. But seeing as this is the ONLY base bigger than 50x50 that can, at the moment, join a unit it is the only problematic one and will no doubt be FAQed, and as stated in my previous post, it doesn't matter anyway, 4 ranks or 5 doesn't actually affect anything in game.

feeder
14-03-2008, 04:59
Who is talking about Unbreakable monsters? Nice red herring, want some butter and toast with that?

What does that even mean? Can you discuss rules without coming across as snarky or superior? :rolleyes:

Unbreakable Monsters exist. They are created when the rider dies, if this happens within a unit, how is this resolved?

Festus
14-03-2008, 06:06
Hi

Unbreakable Monsters exist. They are created when the rider dies, if this happens within a unit, how is this resolved?
1st: Which monster automatically becomes *unbreakable* when the rider dies? I do not know about a single one off the top of my head.

2nd: Use the search function: There were quite a lot of threads on the subject of illegal units being created in a game within the last few months.

Illegal units are eg. units with two or more joined characters - and the troopers all died, or units with ridden monsters in them - when the character was killed.


Festus

juample
14-03-2008, 09:41
Sirs, be reasonably. There are only 2 playable options on this.

1) Following only the Rulebook (left in the below image link)
2) Following the chronicles 2003 old rule (http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/chronicles/assets/Q&A2003.pdf).(right in the below image link)

http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/1294/2wyaste8.jpg

NOTE: In the image the minimum number of model to get the +3Rank Bonus.
EDIT: Think in the chariot above as a Corpse Cart, and the Eagle below as a Doom Minotaur.

FigureFour
14-03-2008, 13:49
Thats fair, hadnt thought of that one

So your saying the front rank would NEED to be:

GGCCGG

And could not be

GGCCG

Yes. This is right.


Unbreakable Monsters exist. They are created when the rider dies, if this happens within a unit, how is this resolved?

It is resolved by the monster leaving the unit immediately as the combination is no longer legal.

T10
14-03-2008, 15:23
It is resolved by the monster leaving the unit immediately as the combination is no longer legal.

Please note that there are no instructions as to how you are supposed to break up illegal units.

The idea of illegal units stems from the various limitations on joining characters with units, but no rules address the issue in detail.

-T10