PDA

View Full Version : High Elf Nobles of WarSeer (High Elf Tactics Thread)



WhiteKnight
12-03-2008, 03:53
Welcome to the WarSeer High Elf tactics discussion thread. Here you can speak of your excellent plans of battle and prove to us that you truly are a High Elf General.

aenarion67
12-03-2008, 07:43
ahh yes always wanted one of these threads. well what shall we discuss first?

BLinDy
12-03-2008, 09:09
I was thinking about getting the HE 25year annverseray box set, 20 lions 20 PG 1 Dragon and 1 chariot.. but ive already got 10 PG and a lion chariot. is it worth having 30 PG :)))

Dtae787
12-03-2008, 09:46
No you should not have 30 unless your playing like 4k or something.

Lets start this out the way im sure everyone wants to go.

Dragons.

Your opinion/builds?

I use Moon dragon for friendly games. Star dragon for tournys.

Prince on star dragon, Armor of caledor, Vampbraces of defense, Lance

An excellent choice, and one of the best ways to utilize a dragon IMO.

Dragon mages, I dont like them. Its a decent beast with a hot stick of butter on top. Would rather have a Phoenix Guard, or some more spearmen. if you want to get mobile here then i would take dragon princes.

Someone else care to continue?

TheSanityAssassin
12-03-2008, 20:13
My armies with my High Elves tend to go in very opposite directions from what most people do. Magic and Character light, with no Dragon Princes OR White Lions. That said, I've cleaned house against high grade opponents in every game I've played except one. Pulled two massacres and a solid in my last tournament.

I tend to run with one level 2 and a Radiant Gem noble for magic defense (we limit magic to 5 levels here, because no one has fun against the 15 PD lists that come to visit every once in a while), and a bare-bones noble on an unbarded steed with a lance that joins my fast cav. Tend to run 2 big blocks of spears, and 16 each of Phoneix Guard and Swordsmasters. The infantry tend to run in tandems, with the elites each supported by a block of spears. I also take 1 lion and one Tiranoc chariot, as well as 3 bolt throwers and 5 spear-only Reavers.. (2000 points)

On paper it looks like a weaker list than alot of the ones that get put out here, but with careful application of fear-causing I can suddenly surge through a centre with spears and PG, while the Swordsmasters scare away the enemy combat from one flank, the Bolt Throwers combat enemy shooting/flankers and the Light Cav + Chariots sweep the other. The main focus is to use the fear causers to force 1 turn breaks, as the army doesn't last long in maintained combat (Generally). The PG also get put in front of warmachines, as I have insane luck with my 4+ ward saves, and generally can neutralize shooting, either by blocking LOS to things, or simply by being in the middle and being scary.

winkypinky
13-03-2008, 00:24
Hey.

After the new book, and I have played a bit with it, I have come up with the following 3 lists that I like to play.
It is a (almost) all cavalry, a MSU list with a dragon mage and finally a Infantry list, which has a line that is rather hard to move.

Might just as well get on with the lists.

------------

List 1: AA-cavalry.

Prince:
Chariot, Dragon armour, shield, Blade of leaping Gold, Talisman of Loec, Temakador's gauntlets.
347

Mage: Lvl 2.
Barded elven steed, 2 Dispel scroll, silver wand.
201

Noble:
Barded elven steed, Dragon armour, shield, lance, Radiant gem of Hoeth.
158

Noble:
Barded elven steed, Dragon armour, shield, Star lance.
149

2*10 Archers. (curse you to hell)
2*110

3*5 Dragon Princes: Musician.
3*160

7 Dragon Princes: MSC, warbanner, skeinsliver.
305

1 Lion Chariot
140

1 Tiranoc chariot
85

3 Great eagles.
3*50

2246.

Comments on the list.
Prince = part time all star fencing master. 7 attacks with a bucketload of re-rolls and penalties for the enemy is rather good. Even if it is S4. And it makes him very much able to go over to the enemy "big guy" and dance his pants off.
The magic defence + other hero: I have through a bit of gaming found out that 1 lvl 1 simply isnt enough for scroll caddying. And we elves are so unforunate that our mages cost a crapload so we cant really aford 2 scroll caddies, then we might as well go magic heavy. The solution? Drain magic 2 times a turn and 2 scrolls with 4 DD. I have found that, it just enough for most games. It is granted that you will not get many drain magic's through against many magic heavy armies. But take a 2nd gen slann list. Many of them only have 5-6 DD.. and you have 5 power with above list. And 1 Drain magic against 2nd gen slann is like shutting down their entire phase, or halving it at least. So a lvl 1 and a lvl 2 with 2 scrolls (lvl 2 mage + radiant gem of Hoeth) is my ideal way of going for magic defence at the moment, at 2.25k. But I would very much like to hear about what other people are doing.
The star lance hero is just there for the S7, sometimes it is not that good, but sometimes it can be game winning, and he isnt as expensive as he seems. It was Star lance/reaver bow in my head. And in this list I chose the Star lance, since chariots could be very bad if they are setup as counter charge units, This guy gives a chance to get rid of them in a cavalry list.

The rest of the list is pretty much given if you ask me. Going for the most bang for your buck on the dragon princes with 3 minimum cost units and 1 hammer unit. I would have liked a unit of reavers in there but in the end and after some playtesting I just really couldnt see what I would lose to gain those reavers. The Tiranoc chariot is there because of point concerns I would have liked if it was a lion chariot. The reason for this over a reaver unit is that I really needed the 3th chariot to make sure some of them got there and that I could be more or less sure that I would break something when combinig a charge with a chariot in the front and princes in the side. Also I found out that making a front charge with the chariot unsuported at first seems very bad, and is in most cases. But it can come in handy if you just need to hold something for a turn, or make sure in which direction it go in next turn. You can probably draw a combat on the first turn with 1 chariot and a bucket of luck. Or your Ld 8/10 will probably make you stay if you lose a little. And next turn the enemy cant move, and the only way he can move the unit is during a overrun move (more or less bound to happen on his turn) so you can just line up some flank charges along that path. Yes you can just "bait" but many times against clever people they wont take the bait. And in this way you bait, maybe loses a unit (cheap tiranoc chariot and it flees 3d6, make it good to get away) but you dictate the acts of 1 of his units for 1 turn. That is okay for 85 points in some cases.
3 eagles ? I just cant get enough warmachine hunters, thorek holders (for 1 turn), march blockers, baiters and shooting stoppers with this list.

Problems with the list: I would like to add 1 more unit champion, cutting a silver wand + dragon armours most likely. It is not because the unit champion is good in anyway (more or less a waste of points in most cases compared to 1 more prince) but he can take challanges which my real Prince hates to be in, and sometimes it is a little hard with only 1 champion to pair the prince with.
Else it is pretty much a standard cavalry list and faces the same problems. The prince is really good in my opinion, even though he is rather fragile in a chariot. And he might well switch place with the radiant gem noble in the future after I have had a chance to run the list in a tournament. Or after many more playtest games. But right now he works wonders and breakes units on his own a lot.

------------

List 2: Rock Infantry.

I hate infantry, now it is said. I hate not having the advantage of movement and therefor the initiative in the game. But then I tried this list. Which really couldnt give a damn about what that is hitting it and in what angle most of the time. And I kinda liked it but it is not one of my favourite lists to play. And have some glaring weaknesses.

Korhil.
140

Mage: lvl 2, 2 dispel scroll
175

Noble: BSB
Heavy armour, shield, great weapon, Radiant gem of Hoeth.
169

22 Spearmen: MSC.
223

10 Archers.
110

17 White Lions: MSC, lion standard, skeinsliver.
335

19 Phoenix guards: MSC, the gem of Courage.
325

13 Swordmasters: Musician.
201

5 Ellyrian reavers: Musican, bows.
112

5 Dragon Princes.
150

2*RBT.
2*100

1 Great eagle.
50

10 Halflings.
60

2249

The BSB, in the lions which protects him from challanges, he is rather fragile. And the list fails a little when he dies and it is one of the main weaknesses. But as explained under the cavalry list I really needed him to have Radian Gem of Hoeth for minimum spell protection.
Korhil is in there to make the spearelfs stubborn. They are kinda crap without, but I find them rather amazing with stubborn. They become a okay tar-pit in that way. The phoenix guards are rather good at not dying, you have to give them that. Which makes them rather good as the last unit to form the line. And the gem of Courage + BSB should make them able to hold almost anything for a turn. Giving me 1 full turn to think about it, and get something done about it. Actually 2 turns. Since it is very rare that you can not see what that is going to charge what and what that have a chance of charging with spells and suchs if you pay attention during he game. Swordmasters are in there for some killing power, they are rather good on a flank. But I have keept them to minimum, (minimum in my mind is still 13 with a musician, I have seen and tried the 5-7 man units but I find them rather crap) since I didnt have the points to make the unit 18 strong with full command.
I alsmost always try to fit in a unit of 5 reavers with bows. I find them amazing. Some people dont like them, i adore them. They can turn as they like shoot all over they are fast and they are cheap. And will not get shot a lot when you have Swordsmasters and Dragon princes running around. The dragon princes are there to give me a unit that can really scare enemy flankers, or giving me a powerfull agressive unit with a long range, to go to their firebase in the case of the enemy has shooting but not enough to make me come to him, but still enough to make it a threath.
And eagle is included simply because it is a eagle, and with the new rare restrictions there is no reason or excuse anymore to not have 1 in your army. Halflings? Yes halflings, look at their pont cost. 60 points... Look at the rest of the list... and remember to add 150 for a char in each unit. I would gladly pay 60 points to save them. Halflings are perfect for the same as an eagle. The downside? They have half the movement. The bonus? They have bows and Bs4 and Ld8 which makes them rather good as Archer nr. 16-25. And at a reasonable price compared to HE archers. Which I have included again because that I couldnt really find the 25 points to make them seaguards with musican. And because that in this particular list I liked to have them range 30 in the case of I was facing a gun-line.

The general plan with this list is pretty simple.
- I have better troops than you and you can not get them down by out manouvering me. Making it less (in my oppion) skill required to play compared to a cavalry or MSU list. And therefor a bit more boring for me to play. But a very resilent list. Hard to massacre with and hard to massacre. Most games I played with it tended to end at something with minor or a draw.
In my oppinion it is also a very fluffy list. And one I will probably still play a bit since there is no point in making the most competitive list for casual and good spirited club games.

(spearelfs with korhil in 6*4, lion with bsb in 6*3, phoenix guards in 5*4 and with mage in many cases, SM's in 7*2. If anyone was wondering about formations)

----------------

Msu.

The list I like playing the most, since it is the most unforgiving, but the most rewarding in my oppinion. A bit like a harder to play wood elf list, since it is basicly trying to do the same. But with a army book not written for that kind of play.

Archmage: lvl 4.
Seerstaff of Saphary, Ring of Fury, Dispel scroll.
350

Dragon mage: Lvl 2.
Guardian Phoenix, silverwand.
420

Noble:
Dragon armour, shield, great weapon, reaver bow.
141

2*10 Lothern Seaguards: Musician, shields.
2*135

14 Swordmasters: MS, banner of sorcery.
278

5 Dragon Princes: Musician.
160

5 Ellyrian reaver: Musician, bows.
112

1 Lion Chariot.
140

5 Shadow warriors.
80

1 RBT.
100

1 Cannon.
85

1 Great eagle.
50

10 Halflings.
60

2246

What to say about the list?
It includes all of the very best from the High Elf army book in my opinion. The downside. It includes nothing else. There is no backbone in the list really. Just things that are powerfull which then takes a certain degree of overview to get to work together and win.
It includes: Seerstaff, Ring of fury, Reaver bow, Banner of sorcery, arguable the best infantry in the game and arguable some of the best cavalry, 12-14 Pd, a cannon and 40 bow shots (which is still bows but not that bad if you can fire 30+ shots without paying a lot for it and compromising other elements of the list.) I have explained most of the units fielded in this army before, so i wont go through them again.
Archmage with a Seerstaff + banner of sorcery is just silly. But very fun to use. Gives you a lot of power in the magic phase if your opponent is not to magic heavy. The Dragon mage is one of the most powerfull options in the High Elf book in my opinion, but the problem with him is that it is hard to make a list that "needs" him in anyway really, were a cheap prince (like really cheap) on sundragon would not be better. (in a cavalry list fx. that would like a dragon). But in this list he can really shine. Since it is just a goodstuff list that depends on flexibility and power rather than sense and a pre-made battle plan. I always gives my Dragon Mage guardian phoenix and silverwand I see no other items that really fit on him. It gives him a ward save and 1 more spell + 1 more Pd. For 35 points only.
The cannon is there because this list really needs something more against really tough things: treemen, huge monsters, tanks an suchs. The noble has a reaver bow, since it is just a really good utility item. If you really need to pluck down a fanatic or a mage has gone out in the open this is the guy to turn to. He will kill most t3 2w things in one go with a little luck. Which just makes the reaver bow a very good magic item for the list and in general, i did and still do consider a Star lance noble instead. But i still need some more testing to decide, since the star lance noble is better at what he do. But very limited at what he can do. (a radiant gem noble have also crossed my mind a few times but that should be for a meta that is very magic heavy. Which gives me a chance for double drain)

-------------

The last list is in my opinion the most powerfull of the 3 lists, but also the hardest to play. Which makes it good for "I am gonna wack you matches" but not ideal for a tournament were you are bound to make play errors at some point that will cost you the game. Were I would rather bring the AA-cavalry list or a variation of it, and try to outplay people. Or bring a list with 2 dragons (Stardragon + Asarnil/Dragon mage.) and pray for good matchups.

*The names of the army lists is just what is on top of my hand written army lists, couldnt really come up with any new ones.

- Yes I do miss the all cavalry seercouncil, but times changes and old loves moves away (or becomes ugly)

WhiteKnight
13-03-2008, 01:02
Just so you know, High Elves cannot take Dogs of War anymore so that cannon and halflings must go. You may only use Great Eagles and Bolt Throwers for rare. Sorry.

marv335
13-03-2008, 01:13
Just so you know, High Elves cannot take Dogs of War anymore so that cannon and halflings must go. You may only use Great Eagles and Bolt Throwers for rare. Sorry.

That's not technically true.
they removed the option from the book, but the GW website says they can still be included.

winkypinky
13-03-2008, 01:21
Just so you know, High Elves cannot take Dogs of War anymore so that cannon and halflings must go. You may only use Great Eagles and Bolt Throwers for rare. Sorry.

You have misunderstood it like marv said. They must be in becayse you have 4 choices and when there is no 2 for 1's on RBT's and eagles they become so much better and more attractive in my oppinion.

marv335
13-03-2008, 01:33
personally I'm not a fan of DoW in armies. I think it reflects badly on a general who takes them. In some cases I can see it. Pike blocks in Empire armies or Mengels Manflayers in DE, But cannons in HE armies? it just seems tacky and cheap to me.

That said, it's your army and you can do what you like (within the rules of course)

Dtae787
13-03-2008, 01:38
Idk the ruling on it. but GW hasn't done much at all to the website. And from reading things they still have in some new things 6th ed rulings.

I wouldn't trust the GW website. Also they are re doing the entire website, so have it shut down almost and everything is wack.

Also that list would belong in the army list section. Not the tactics. Im sure the OP intended for this to be what units do you use. or what units should be doing what.

Anyways let me set it back on topic.

Lets go with Great eagles. These birds do almost anything you need them to do. With the flying and WS5 and S4 T4, these make excelent war machine hunters, and great march blockers. Also drive out fanatics. Do any of you use them for anything else?

marv335
13-03-2008, 01:51
I use them so that frenzied troops can play "hunt the budgie"

Alathir
13-03-2008, 02:19
What's everyone's thoughts on fighting the new Vampire Counts list? Any bright ideas?

Dtae787
13-03-2008, 02:34
I played a VC guy. Against his core units let your spear men enjoy them selfs all day long. His GG You have to watch out for. They will just demolish you. Send things like Phoenix Guard at them. To my knowledge they have killing blow. So dont send your dragon princes at them. Vargulf will eat your warmachines and archers.

Other then that the guy I played didnt use anything else. The vampire, BSB, GG unit though is ridiculously hard to kill.

winkypinky
13-03-2008, 16:36
....the new Vampire Counts list? Any bright ideas?

Well in my oppinion it is pretty obvious. They are still undead. I have only played some mock up games with a friend with the new VC.
He bought the book and we cut out paper pieces to represent units roughly to scala and we sat down one day and played our different armies against what we thought was some hard, cool and fluffy VC list. This is something I highly recomment to other people who are interested in optimizing lists. Get a play test partner (friend) who is of the same "skill level" or higher than you and play through some very quick games on a basic table with random stuff as terrain in one of your living rooms (rooms) instead of at the local club. This gives a very good feel of the army without using a lot of time to gain that info.(or money if that is a concern) And you can do it any day that the 2 of you prefer.

We basicly both discovered that it was more or less the same. The vampires are still tough and you need a prince geared for combat to take their lords down in cc. But you are still playing an unbreakebel army that causes fear.


A few other points.
Zombies being T2 and cheaper.
- Well it really didnt make that much of a difference for any of us. Because we both play armies that either avoid tar-pits completly or armies that could tear through zombie hordes before in cc. The difference of the extra zombies were not so great because either you can handle a zombie horde or you cant. It is very simple. Them being T2 could make a difference for other armies than HE maybe. But not really for our all ready elite troops.

The ZomG PwnAge rare unit of doom, death and invincibility (mounted vamp unit)
- That is a hard unit. It was a little problem for me at first to face the fact that I no longer controlled the most powerfull unit on the battlefield. (a feeling I almost always have when playing HE) And it could stomp through anything without 2 characters in it on the charge. The first few games I played against it I Simply put eagles in odd angles in front of it (and later a few halflings) to make it sure it wouldnt do anything for 2 turns at a time.(his charge, and the next turn were he would have to turn around) So sacrificing 100-150 points of troops to keep the uber death unit away all game seems pretty good to me. I tried a few times to bring it down, it failed some times and it worked others. Sticking a large unit of whitelions in front of it was a ok idea but not something I will do if I have spare eagles or halflings. It didnt really kill the unit unless I had a prince in it. And then it was more a "my uber unit of death against yours" scenario were it was more or less a toss up of who won. But as expensive for me as for him so not really a tactic I prefer. Plus the fact that since his unit is mounted he can avoid your uber unit. And dragon princes are just to weak to remove the entire unit on the charge. And they will get utterly hammered next turn. Shooting at the unit was ok in my oppinion, they have a 4+ "ward" most of the timebut I can live with that. They cost a crap load for him so they should be tough to bring down with shooting. Lore of metal gave me some good damage to the units when I used it. But the problem is you have to have all your mages or at least 2 with metal to have "enough" spells to do any damage to the unit.

Wraiths.
- They are back in.... me and my friend both had a little "and then" episode. We did play against them in 5th and it was the same. Hit them with magic and they go away. If you dont they will be a pain.
Banshee. As always good. The "ideal" scenario with a lot of reduce Ld effects and double banshee was just to easy to counter to be to powerfull. (in our humble oppinion)

Vargulf.
- An interesting subject. A warmachine hunter that is expensive, but very able to hunt warmachines. When we tried VC armies with 2 of them it became devastating. They are fast. But easy to kill, but the easy to kill factor dosnt really come in when you play an opponent that will not just let you kill them. They do not negate ranks though. Which makes them balanced. Since they can not take on infantry units alone or use their speed to negate ranks for your other units.

The amazing power of their magic.
- Well... was it any different before? Other than the fact that MAYBE once in a while you came across a VC player that wasnt very magic heavy. That can still happen in the same alternative freak parallel universe. But the chance still are that you will not see magic light VC armies very often. (Unless you venture into the most twisted parts of the warp)

Corpse cart.
- Marginal impact we decided. It did some nice things but if you know what it does it will not really suprise you and you can plan for it. (or kill it)

That was more or less my experience with the new VC and against them.
- Still the same, more or less.

Tecliso
14-03-2008, 16:49
I had a little Idea for a prince..

I would give it a great wep - long bow.

Armour of Caledor, Ring of corin, Radiant gem of hoeth, Talisman of loec.
Take the lore of beast and then The bears anger. (( Remains in play gives you +3 atack +2 str and 1 t (( 4 T elf!:P )) It's the first spell in the lore so you always can take it.
You would have a great vampire - big boega lord killer on foot with 2+ save and if ring of corin goes off destroy some nice item + know what his items do,

You can Challenge his lord big scarry meanie. You would strike first and can use talisman of loec. (( tough you will lose 1 wound )) then you would have
a ws 7 s 6 t 4 and 7 atacks! + reroll ALL failed rolls to hit and wound. And he must reroll all successful saves of any kind..

Think he will must be pretty dead then... and you only lose 1 wound Take that!^^

Tough he is best placed in a magic heavy army.

winkypinky
14-03-2008, 17:16
That is the great thing about Talisman of Loec. It makes you able to make a lord that will whipe the floor with almost any other close combat lords thanks to their first strike. You just have to get your lord to his and the result is almost given.

Von Wibble
14-03-2008, 21:59
Tecliso - If he has nightshroud it is probably you who dies. He strikes first and can have 4 S5 attacks with reroll to hit, with wounds allowing more attacks. And still afford the carstein ring!

Any anti nightshroud tactics? In a prince led army Vaul's unmaking isn't realistic to cast, Lore of metal not ideal vs undead (light and high are better), and ring of corin 1 use only so not reliable. This single item makes vampire hunting very difficult for characters on foot.

Of course, most vampires have at best S7 to deal with armour, and at best S6 when combining with red fury. So Helm of Fortune on a mounted character will ensure survivability, especially combined with a ward save.

In terms of infantry, skeletons are cheaper so nastier. Wight cav cost more, and zombies are so easy to kill that they just provide cheap CR. (clearly the tarpit more of a problem however). Most tactics in previous edition still apply - eliminate support units quickly then surround the main units in order to create multiple charges and wipe them out as fast as possible. Avoid the main killer units.

Interestingly, swordmasters with standard of balance are more than a match for blood knights (even with the seemingly popular royal standard of strigos!)
With a frontage of 6, your 13 attacks get 8 hits and 5 wounds - 2-3 kills.

He gets 3 attacking back (expensive unit!) - 7 attacks - 4 hit, 3 wound. Horses get 1 more. Unit is wiped out by cr!


Black coach is much nastier - that ward save and absorbing dice makes it something to fear. Star lance is of course a nice counter measure - a dragon prince charge also good.

Amulet of light is not an item to overlook - if given to a character in a shooting unit it allows wraiths/spirit hosts to be removed, and then the character can join a combat unit to deal with enhanced black coach. Alternatively DP champion can have it to not be tarpitted by hosts.

WhiteKnight
15-03-2008, 00:09
VCounts are now more beastly. The black coach is a beast and I love playing with them in a mega battle. Against them, not so much.

Foreverstorm
15-03-2008, 12:11
Any one tried to use null stone on a prince with a unit of swordmaster to kill a VC lord ?

eleveninches
15-03-2008, 12:38
Ive used teclis since the new book cam eout, and had some good games with him, but for the last few weeks ive been using tyrion, and he is SO hard.

Anaris
15-03-2008, 12:57
This is a nice one, I think so anyway.

Noble
White Sword
Heavy Armour
Talisman of Loec

Very cheap, with a decent chance of KB a enemy character.

WhiteKnight
16-03-2008, 04:17
That set up is good in less than 2000 pt games. Right now I'm in a slump in games. I've been massacred 3 times today in a tournament and Ive lost my 3 last games before today. The main reason is because I was playing a doubles tournament and I got matched up to a new dark elf player. Yeah, I got matched up with dark elves as a High Elves.

Anyways, I really gotta learn how to handle skaven, Dwarf Gunlines, Vampire Counts, and the occasional Brettonia Lance Formations. Any tips will be very helpful.

EDIT: Here's a new list I just made. Hopefully it can help me get out of my slump. The main focus is magic and shooting with a little combat to hold down some units. The Ellyrian Reavers are basically mage taxis to get some good magic off.

Prince - armour of caledor, guardian phoenix, great weapon, gem of courage = 222
Mage - lv 2, ring of fury, silver wand, elven steed = 197
Mage - lv 2, elven steed, gem of sunfire, dispel scroll = 196
Mage - lv 2, jewel of the dusk, power stone = 170

Lothern Sea Guard - 14, shields, musician = 187
Lothern Sea Guard - 14, shields, musician = 187

Shadow Warriors - 6 = 96
Swordmasters - 18, full command, banner of sorcery = 350
Ellyrian Reavers - 5, bows = 95

Repeater Bolt Thrower = 100
Repeater Bolt Thrower = 100
Repeater Bolt Thrower = 100

Total: 2000 points
10 power dice (including army pool)
2 power stone dice
+D3 for Banner of Sorcery

5 dispel dice

DoomedToRepeatIt
16-03-2008, 07:14
Double check your book, WhiteKnight. Eagle's Claws are not "2 counts as 1 rare" anymore (at least, not that I can find). Which means you've got a 100 points to spare.

As a soon-to-be-VC player, I would other folks opinions of how to counter Grave Guard and Blood Knights with our beloved elves. My LGS has a dearth of elf players (of all three stripes, as a matter of fact), and I want to be able to counter anything they decide to toss my way.

Abduction
16-03-2008, 09:44
He has got 4 rare choices, and he has only used 3 of them.

DoomedToRepeatIt
16-03-2008, 10:01
GASP.

I thought only the Special slots were expanded. That's. . . words fail me. Rock? Awesome? Kickassery?

I've only had my book for about a week, and got it at the same time as the VC and CSM codices, so I've been splitting my time between them all. My mistake, and I stand corrected.

winkypinky
16-03-2008, 14:05
That's. . . words fail me. Rock? Awesome? Kickassery?


But remember that we only got 2 different rare units in the book.So it is more or less the same... But the posibilities for DOW on the other hands are Rock, Awesome and Kickassery. But standard HE'ness it is more or less the same. Except you got the option for 3 RBT's and 1 eagle split, which is very good in shooting lists. And you could not do it before.

To shift the topic a little: I am glad for the new no 2 for 1's aproach. With the difference in troop selection I think it becomes balanced. There is one thing that I would have changed in the troop selection section.
Given the fact that we have 4 rare choices, I think the designers should have been bold and moved dragon princes to the rare slot. Given the fact they got such a massive upgrade, I really just can not justify them being in the same slot as silverhelms. And as much as I hate it is probably best for overall game balance that silverhelms are not core. And having them in rare would limit shooting lists ability to just smash things that get close a bit. And if silverhelms are "nobles" and therefor special. The "nobles" from just 1 and very thinly populated realm could be justified being rare in a fluff sence.

TK421
16-03-2008, 14:51
This is a nice one, I think so anyway.

Noble
White Sword
Heavy Armour
Talisman of Loec

Very cheap, with a decent chance of KB a enemy character.

Hey, that one's pretty cool. I think I'll give it a try :)

WhiteKnight
16-03-2008, 18:47
I always wanted to try an all cavalry army with the 6th Ed. rules, never got to though. If I did though, I would've had 2 blocks of silver helms 8 strong, then a unit of Ellyrian Reavers 5 strong and then 2 blocks of Dragon princes 5 strong, then to top it all off, a pair of tiranoc chariots and a 5 eagles. That would definately be my army of choice in 6th Ed.

Abduction
17-03-2008, 12:22
Given the fact that we have 4 rare choices, I think the designers should have been bold and moved dragon princes to the rare slot. Given the fact they got such a massive upgrade, I really just can not justify them being in the same slot as silverhelms. And as much as I hate it is probably best for overall game balance that silverhelms are not core. And having them in rare would limit shooting lists ability to just smash things that get close a bit. And if silverhelms are "nobles" and therefor special. The "nobles" from just 1 and very thinly populated realm could be justified being rare in a fluff sence.
I totally agree with you, noone takes silver helms now, DP is just som much better for only a few points more. DP should be rare choices (or SM core) anything else doesn't make sense, at least not to me...

WhiteKnight
18-03-2008, 04:23
That's where I must disagree. Silver Helms are actually worth using against small infantry units like empire Spearmen or Vampire Count skeletons.

Tecliso
18-03-2008, 07:12
Well.. I prefer Dragon princes.. or 7 points orso.. you have 1 atack more ld, you can pick a magic item and banner.. And silver helms can't (( don't have the book with me so can be tot wrong.. :P )) so.. DP would be my choice..

aenarion67
18-03-2008, 10:19
alright i'll give my input to this tactica.
lords
prince. the prince in my opinion is a pretty good lord choice. if u intend to take him on foot the give him a GW. i cannot stress how good a GW is. in the hands of a high elf prince it is possibly one of the greatest weapons of all time. str 6 prince. YEAHH. in terms of armour i like to make him cheap give him armour of caledor, problem is he may kill every one in base to base before they even get to strike back! also arming him with sacred incense (the one that gives -1 to hit in shooting) brilliant piece and save our precious HE from dying to shooting.

for the HE prince on mount i preffer to give him a star dragon. people may say there to expensive. true but if your smart you'll have cover on your side. the reason for star dragon is because its cool and str7 and wound 7 anyone? in equipment give him armour of caledor, vambraces of defence, a normal lance and maybe amulet of light for magical attacks (the last piece is my personal opinion) when using a dragon riding lord stick to cover and make sure u dont move out unitl all his artillery is dead first then its safe to move. i will be back to discuss about archamges later.

winkypinky
18-03-2008, 16:11
the reason for star dragon is because its cool and str7 and wound 7 anyone?

You are making a very good point.
The 7 wounds makes the star dragon very good in my oppinion. It can take a great cannon shot direct in the face for max damage and still live. That is something vey few things in the game can do. And it makes the star dragon very resilient. A really good combo is star dragon + healing. With either a truthsayer, archmage (or just mage) with seerstaff, can make a star dragon pretty much never go down, with a little luck.

Medic
18-03-2008, 16:27
What are the more reliable characters to use? Korhill, charadon etc....

winkypinky
18-03-2008, 20:15
I would like to hear peoples choices in the infantry units. Mostly concerning unit sizes, magic items, combinations and suchs.

22 spearmen w/full com and korhil 6*4
17 WL's w/full com, lion standard and BSB 6*3
19 phoenix guards w/gem of courage, full com (and a mage) 5*4
13 SM's w/musician 7*2

Is my preferred battle line for 2.25k with a infantry setting in mind. What other units + upgrades does people use to fill the "main battle line" role with HE? I really like this setup since it makes for a line that is very hard to move, and hardhitting.

I find Korhil a really good choice for a spear block in 2.25k. He gives the unit a better chance to deal with heavy armoured or tough things and makes them stubborn. Which is kinda handy for a big unit of low cost elves with loads of low strenght attacks.

DoomedToRepeatIt
18-03-2008, 20:50
I never use my infantry (other than archers) in blocks of less than 20. I used to try blocks of 15, but they get chewed up against shooting too quickly, and they don't have the extra bodies needed to absorb casualties and keep the rank bonuses. With 20+ in a unit, your 5+ saves and T3 isn't going to result in a unit getting whittled down to missile fire before getting stuck in.

Archers, on the other hand, I only ever deploy in units of 10 and rarely bother with the command models. If they're forced to flee and get stuck in combat, they're screwed anyway.

I'm curious about people's cavalry strengths. I see a lot of armies posted on these boards that have heavy cav like Blood Knights and Dragon Princes deployed in groups of five. I understand that they're expensive and you get plenty of attacks with just one rank, but I've been beaten in CR by rank bonuses one too many times to not take a full second rank for my heavy hitters.

winkypinky
18-03-2008, 22:09
I've been beaten in CR by rank bonuses one too many times to not take a full second rank for my heavy hitters.

Do not charge in the front. Problem solved. For the price of 1 more rank you could have 1 more unit. That just happens to fit very nice in the side or rear in a combined charge with the first unit.

Dtae787
19-03-2008, 09:21
Cheap units of 5 naked do wonders on flanks and combo charges. I run mine in units 2 units of 5. They combo charge and flank charge. 16 inch charge on heavy cav? Yes please.

When I run my omg wtf pwn unit of dragon princes, I run them with 9 full command, war banner, Bsb with battle banner.

Combat res works out to 1 for banner, 1 for bsb, 1 for warbanner, 1-6 for battle banner, and if im really lucky they didnt shoot out my rank so 1 for a rank. and unit strength 20, so maybe even out number.

Today they proved their worth to me. Killed a unit of thirty goblins with 2 shamans in it, survived about 4-5 fanatics. And then unit was JUST my bsb. I was going vs a charge from a unit of orcs with choppas. They had 3 ranks banner outnumber, and a Lord shaman. I just had bsb battle banner. I was in a challenge, so I won by three. orcs broke I chased.

then after that he ran into a unit of about 15 goblins and ran them off. So he made his points back including is unit.

TK421
19-03-2008, 12:21
Your giant unit of Dragon Princes + Uber Battle Standard earned their points killing goblins? :eyebrows: That's a lot of goblins to kill.

Although I suppose he had it coming if he stuck 2 shamans in the same unit. :angel:

I've tried running the new Dragon Princes a few times just as a basic 5 man unit, no upgrades. I think in the....4 games I've used them they have:
- Run off the table turn 1 thanks to a Screaming Bell panic check
- Flank charged a unit of 20 Ironguts (with White Lions in the front). They lost 4 and the last one ran off due to fear
- Hit by a Doom Diver that was aiming for my Spearmen then scattered on to them. Lost 3 and ran off the table.
- Charged by a unit of 10 Wolf Riders, Princes killed none with ASF, lost 2 in return before my horses killed one. Broke and was chased down.

And with all that they've still done better then my Prince on Star Dragon or Dragon Mages :o

Wodan.BR
19-03-2008, 13:04
wow... TK421, that's a whole lot of bad luck!

In7th edition i've had DP usully break fully ranked units in face on charges.
Of course, same doesn't apply to empire longswords (only due to that damn sttuborn rule) and maybe to empire cavalry, because of the 1+ AS.
regular infantry have usually fallen like flies to the DPs.

I also like to when possilbe, use at least a BSB with all the magic prottection to avoid him from getting killed (the CR bonus comes in handy)

Tecliso
19-03-2008, 17:40
What kind of armybuild do you guys normaly use?

I always have something like this;

lord - prince - radiant gem of hoeth, talismen of leoc, armour of caledor, Great wep

mage - lvl2, stuff
mage - lvl2, + 1 power dice thingie, silverwand, stuff
noble - bsb battel banner, bardend steed , lance, shield, d armour

<core>
archers, lothren sea guard / spearmen.
< maby stuff>
<special>
Swordmasters
DP
<maby stuff>

Rare
bolth throwers x2
Eagels x2


Something like that in a 2225 game.

Power dice 8
dispel dice 5

TK421
19-03-2008, 18:39
I usually run something along the lines of:

BSB, Lv 2, Lv 4
or
Prince, BSB, Lv 2

21 Spears
10 Archers

20 Phoenix Guard
14 White Lions/Swordmasters

Fill up the rest of the points with some combination of Chariots and RBT's

winkypinky
19-03-2008, 18:47
Here is a link to the 3 different types of armies i usually play.
- I almost always plays one of those armies or a small variation of it.

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131236

Lately though I have tried this list:
- It is taking the new selection options a little to the extreme and some would say with a mild flavour of beard, but it is fun to play with 3 lord lvl casters in 2.25k and 17Pd for HE, then you can actually feel a little like the master of the magic phase for a change... something you dont see everyday.
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132800

DoomedToRepeatIt
19-03-2008, 20:35
That's just bad luck, TK. In a couple dozen games, I've never had my Princes run. They've died to a man before, but they killed their points' worth before then so I consider those instances to be noble deaths.

TK421
19-03-2008, 21:02
How do you run the Dragon Princes? (talking #'s and unit upgrades)

Dtae787
19-03-2008, 21:48
TK, I killed over 60 Goblins, captured 2 standards, Killed 2 goblin shamans, and then killed an orc unit of 30 with his lord in it. The goblin units had max fanatics. So that puts them at around 225 points a pop. Remember, I had to endure over 4 or 5 fanatics hitting me.

My 500ish point unit made over double their points that game.

You underestimate orcs and goblins. Fanatics are rediculous. goblins have those damn little nets. and the orcs have choppas which chew up armor. I only had 5 in my unit of ten when i hit combat.

So for being outnumbered 18 to 1, including the orcs and their characters and lord. the unit is fantastic.

I have played against the new VC with this set up as well and the massive CR you get will crumble ENTIRE units. Overrun and continue

Dragon princes should be run in units of 5 naked or with musician. Or in my experience, units of 9 with a BSB and either battle banner, or banner of the world dragon. I prefer the battle banner.

Tecliso
19-03-2008, 22:16
I really love the battle banner <3..

Abduction
20-03-2008, 10:49
How do you run the Dragon Princes? (talking #'s and unit upgrades)
I plan to run them in a unit of 5 without any upgrades.

Fhoen
20-03-2008, 10:58
. His GG You have to watch out for. They will just demolish you. Send things like Phoenix Guard at them. To my knowledge they have killing blow. So dont send your dragon princes at them.

doesn't killing blow only effect mansized models? :)

(could be wrong thou)

winkypinky
20-03-2008, 17:55
doesn't killing blow only effect mansized models? :)

(could be wrong thou)

It can only effect models of US 2 and below. (US 1 and 2)
- So it do effect cavalry.

Fhoen
20-03-2008, 18:04
oki
Then the b*st*rd who told me i going to get a pummeling -.-'

winkypinky
20-03-2008, 19:44
But back to the DP's:

I use mine in groups of 5 with musician, sometimes I cut the musician if I need a few points. But it is one of the last things that I remove in suchs a situation. They just perform really nice in small teams. And you can aford 2 units in most 2k games without a problem.

Sometimes when I go heavy on cavalry I include a bigger unit of 6+ . Not with a complete second rank in most cases but just with more models to sustain a few hits. It is usually around 7. With full command and a warbanner. A unit of 7 with full com and warbanner comes in at 280 and generates more than enough CR to break most things in the front suported by a noble. Or it can take the front of the most heavy of the enemy units in a combined charge. And it is not to expensive for my taste. (no 500 points units that I can not be sure will survive the game, I try to keep all my "expensive" units at around 300 points, which is not to many VP's)

Personally I do not really like the "uber" unit of DP's of death with a BSB. I liked the BSB in 6th when I always had a few re-rolls from 2nd sign of amul. But that is no longer the case. And since I dont feel that I can be sure that it will perform well (a 1 or 2 is bound to happen and that kinda sucks for a 200 point char) In this edition I would rather slap a dragon under my lord than field a Battle Banner BSB on a steed in a cavalry unit. And just go with a little less hard hitting DP unit, but it still hard hitting enough to do what it have to. Since the 2 attacks, in my head, sort of even out the loss of battle banner.

DoomedToRepeatIt
20-03-2008, 20:19
Back in 6th Edition, I used to run either a 7-man unit with a mounted commander or an 8-man unit. I actually haven't played WFB since 7th Edition came out and I've only had the new HE book for about two weeks -- WarMachine, Hordes, and 40K took up all my time -- so of course, I haven't been able to try any different configurations. That is perhaps the one reason why I'm so curious about how other folks run theirs: so that when I can start playing again, I'll know the best set-up and start whipping some @$$e$.

WhiteKnight
22-03-2008, 05:22
I really like having a block of 5 with a noble holding the Sacred Incense so shooting is a bit harder against them. I also consider having them travel with a prince with the star lance and armour of Caledor.

Wodan.BR
22-03-2008, 21:36
I use my DP's in units of 5, full command with banner of sorcery or war banner.
When I'm not running a magic heavy list, i use a BSB with them, but usually with a regular banner and some magic armour.

neo_ebrick
23-03-2008, 13:15
im a huge fan of 5 dragon princes with a banner and champ with a noble bsb keep in cover and pick you fight works out great!

Von Wibble
23-03-2008, 13:24
But back to the DP's:

Personally I do not really like the "uber" unit of DP's of death with a BSB. I liked the BSB in 6th when I always had a few re-rolls from 2nd sign of amul. But that is no longer the case. And since I dont feel that I can be sure that it will perform well (a 1 or 2 is bound to happen and that kinda sucks for a 200 point char) In this edition I would rather slap a dragon under my lord than field a Battle Banner BSB on a steed in a cavalry unit. And just go with a little less hard hitting DP unit, but it still hard hitting enough to do what it have to. Since the 2 attacks, in my head, sort of even out the loss of battle banner.

My preferred tactic which replaces second sign is radiant gem. Use Heavens spell 1 to reroll 1s to hit and wound. This makes DPs do their job very well (and my opponent keeps letting it through!)

White Knight - Armour of Caledor seems pointless mounted - heavy armour, shield and barding gives the same save allowing AOC to be used by a character on foot. And 25pts to spend on items should you wish.

I often like to use the helm of fortune on a drakemaster. This makes him very effective at denying wounds to most really nasty enemies in challenges.

Aelfric
23-03-2008, 13:34
Hey,

Since I am a big fan of the HE Archers and Repeater Boltthrowers I was just wondering if it would be possible to build an effective "gunline" army around them? I am well aware of the fact that this would never even be close as effective as an empire or dwarfven gunline, but I just like the thought of lots of Archers lining up and shooting arrow after arrow into the enemy.

WhiteKnight
23-03-2008, 18:18
It's possible. Here's what you can do for some good laughs. Have 2-4 units of 10-15 archers with no upgrades. that's 550 points at max. Then have 4 bolt throwers, 3 units of 5-6 shadow warriors with a prince armed with the Bow of the Seafarer, shadow armour, and a great weapon. To make it seem more deadly, add 3 mages armed with crazy good arcane items and spells. Try to increase your power dice amount to make spells easier to cast and use drain magic on armies that have good and dangerous magic. Like Vampire counts. Drain magic will make all of the Envocation of Nehecks go from 1 d6 to 2d6 and possibly 3d6 is you cast it consecutively.

DoomedToRepeatIt
23-03-2008, 20:30
An elven bow-line. It'd be like watching "300."

aenarion67
24-03-2008, 05:22
the elven bow lines ok in my experience with mages archers and boltthrowers. ive sen it before. get curse of arrow attraction and thats basicly one unit dead a turn. its actually preety scary to watch cause people always knock how bad archers are but in large numbers and high range it really kills oh and not to mention power stones.

WhiteKnight
24-03-2008, 06:14
With a bowline in HE. You need to have 3 mages and possibly an archmage and cast that little spell we like to call curse of arrow attraction with the el Book la Hoeth and powerstonus pwnsallnoobus. Also consider the Folariath's Robe and hide your mage so you can cast the Curse of Arrow Attraction and possibly something along the lines of Fury of Khaine and Flames of the phoenix.

neo_ebrick
24-03-2008, 19:36
that when i miss the old teclis no range, and multi RIP spells, and rerolls. flames of the phonix was so awsome/ im sad now thinking how much damage on mage use to do :(

WhiteKnight
25-03-2008, 06:23
The old Teclis was amazing. It was like an archmage with book of hoeth, banner of sorcery with dispel and power dice, two silver wands, and a crazy sword where you hit on 5's and possibly 4's.

aenarion67
25-03-2008, 07:38
what i dont like is new tyrion. old tyrion was personally my favourite. come back to life with 2+ ward ohh yeah. plus he had bound spell pw level 6! the new tyrion i dont like. teclis is ok in the new edition he got cheaper so hes preety good. i however really liked old teclis. unlimited range on all spells. imagine casting cleasing flare the last spell in lore of light. every enemy unit taking d6 str 5 hits.

WhiteKnight
25-03-2008, 16:32
That is why they added Eltharion the Warden and Alith Anar the Shadow King and took out all of those things. To balance everything up. Up until the Warden, I have never seen a high elf prince on a griffon. I'm going to buy Stormwing and then make my own prince and flip off between eltharion and my custom prince.

Wodan.BR
25-03-2008, 18:42
I tried Eltharion, but.. i don't know... i guess i was expecting more hitting power for the point cost.
Still, I don't think i'd have the guts to use a prince on a griphon without the 5+ ward save that stormwing has with eltharion.

WhiteKnight
25-03-2008, 19:16
Well, you need to you eltharion right. Don't just charge in the front, go to the side or rear, you fly for goodness sake. Anyways, keep away from missile fire and eltharion will pay his points in a couple turns.

winkypinky
25-03-2008, 20:49
I often field Eltharion on foot for a ok fighter + 1 Dd. In that way he performs okay for his points. A radiant gem noble/prince does the same, and maybe better. But you can have 4 fighting characters and a decent magic defence, with Eltharion, a radiant gem noble +2 other nobles.
- Which is not overly powerfull in any way but a nice thing to do once in a while for a change. I find it hard to come up with any other combo with 4 fighting heroes.
If you do not take RoR.

If you do, you could have a whopping 8 fighting characters in a 2k army. Which must seem fun to someone out there.
7 mounted chars? Is it possible? How many mounted RoR's are there? I can only think of 3 RoR + 3 Nobles so that would only be 6.. unless you want to go with a lord with radiant gem and two scrolls for magic defence and it would be 7 mounted chars total. (Al Muktar, Voland and Tichi-Huichi, the birdman takes 2 rare.) but it could maybe be a powerfull trick if someone out there comes up with the "perfect" combo of chars.
- I would maybe try an army with
1 Mounted Prince /w gem and scrolls
3 Mounted nobles
3 Mounted RoR Heroes
+ Richter Kreugar the Damned and his cursed company.

*But some would maybe call it fluff murder.

Or this variant:
Dragon Lord/Dragon mage
Asarnil
3 Mounted RoR's

To justify this abuse of rare choices, one could argue that "They" took out the 7 Heroes scenario, and this is the gaming crowds cry for more varied scenarios.

Please note that I do not claim that these builds would be any good at all, but maybe make for more varied games. And if one of them wins a GT, it was me who thought of it first ;)

- A mention should go to the 3 Lord lvl caster's in 2k army (Which proved to be really good after the few games I have had with it) that I have linked earlier, when touching the posibilities (sp?) the 4 rares gives you. (And the powerfull ones, no matter how "unfluffy" and unfun it seems, if powerbuild ideas should be posted anywere this would be a good place I think)

Von Wibble
25-03-2008, 21:14
The old Teclis was amazing. It was like an archmage with book of hoeth, banner of sorcery with dispel and power dice, two silver wands, and a crazy sword where you hit on 5's and possibly 4's.

Ermmmm.....no

The old teclis was terrible. He cost nearly 200 more, didn't get book of hoeth (which is far better than rerolls and range put together - it really isn't hard to get within 24" of an enemy, and the best spells don't roll effects in the first place), the "crazy sword" did the same as it does now, and he didn't have the banner of sorcery (just +1 to each not +D3). And he took an extra hero choice. Also note Aenarion67 that cleansing flare and other spells effecting all enemies within a radius was not affected by the crown.

New version is much better.

Eltharion - an excellent choice for the points. I regularly face chaos and undead - so often like the griffon prince as he doesn't use a hero choice (if you hadn't guesed I like to keep all my slots). I also usually have the radiant gem. Eltharion provides both of these with an extra magic level, decent weapon (not great on foot as you need the charge for the benefit) and ward.

Winky pinky - I don't myself use albion rules and rarely if ever dogs of war so those builds are not for me. But if I faced an opponent using such armies I would consider that RoR's don't get strikes first and are for the most part overcosted for what they do (yes there are exceptions to this). Asarnil + prince on star dragon + dragon mage could herald a return to hero hammer if you want an unbalanced (not necessarily unbeatable though) build.

Elven bow line- yes n numbers high elf archers are deadly. But realistically you won't get more than 30 shots plus rbts (in killing power the worst war machine in the game - twice the price of the dwarf one for no discernable bonus). Throw in curse of arrow attraction and you have spent about 800 pts on missile fire - yet this in damage is no nastier than about 500pts worth of empire or dwarf firepower.

winkypinky
25-03-2008, 21:27
I would consider that RoR's don't get strikes first

How is that ever a REAL concern when you have a horse?
- It worked fine to have a horse in 6th, and it is still working just fine in 7th.
Ponies = Pure win.

Also, if Hero-hammer, "wins" why not discuss it and take it in a tournament point of view, something that i rarely see here. And actually discuss what the "best" is. Instead of the repeated pads on the backs for taking archers, and the only ever real usefull sugestions is: Make those Silverhelms Dp's. This is indeed great for most places.
But I would very much like some "stronger builds" - not really concerned by fluff but making it more of a MT:G discussion were you would actually discuss match-ups against tournament regular armies (decks) in the HE tactica thread.
Taking the discussion into: We have 4 heroes, 2+ core, 0-6 special, 0-4 rares, plus we have dragon'S for hero choices. That is just something that is so open to abuse that it would be a shame in my point of view to not have a discussion about it.

Palomarus
25-03-2008, 23:56
I tried a null stone on a dragon mounted prince....but i was an idiot and went after the wrong unit. He had 5 Blood Knights with a BSB and the Regeneration and 3+ ward save banners. So I parked next to him and was going to chew them up with my bolt throwers....what I should have done was parked him on the side of his Skellie unit with Level 4 Mage....would have stopped his magic dead on his feet. And a Dragon Breath a turn would have done wonders to that unit.... oh well live and learn.

tehhelios
26-03-2008, 00:21
Aight il throw some stuff into the grinder too.
I like the dragon mage, add a lvl 2 mage and a banner of sorcery, thats a pretty sweet package of might and magic.

Or

Prince/noble with gem of loec and either great weapon or the white sword.
(you can reroll successful wounds if you feel evil and hope for a killing blow)

aenarion67
26-03-2008, 10:59
dragon mage. heres my opinion.
ok first of all the fluff behind this guy is awesome in my opinion. snooby kid goes to school, doesnt like it and goes out and rides dragons preety awesome i say.
ok stat wise hes like a spearman champion with no armour. hes preety cheap if u want to field a dragon in a small game. in the movement phase he is almighty. he can fly and cause terror. preety nice is u ask me. in magic he's really offensive. personally i dont normally go for taking flamming sword of ruin cause if the mage gets in combat he gets killed preety quickly. hes free power dice is awesome give him jewel of dusk and maybe a power stone and u got urself a flying magic power house using 4 dice maximum. always upgrade to lvl 2. cause if u dont ur wasting all his precious free power dice by not casting a second spell. in combat hes preety good. dragon has 4 attacks str 5 not bad. if he has flamming sword of ruin he can kill about 3 or 2 a turn with preety good rolls, cause weapon skill doesnt matter cause u always hit on 2+ with flamming of ruin. the down side is lack of armour and being on a red dragon kind of marks him with death. hes gonna get shot and killed almost as easily as a mage in the open. so stick to cover.

so thats my opinion on the dragon mage.

winkypinky
26-03-2008, 14:11
I would -always- give my dragon mage silverwand.
His second piece of gear is either Crown of Atrazar or Guardian Phoenix. I mostly use the phoenix since it is cheaper.

Silver wand on Dragonmage:
- The best piece if gear ever.
For 10 points you get a spell and if you are a Dragonmage 1 spell = 1 free Pd.
So a silverwand and a Dragonmage is a Jewel of the Dusk just 5 points cheaper, plus you get the bonus of 1 more spell. I will always take Silver wand over Jewel of the Dusk on a dragon mage.

neo_ebrick
26-03-2008, 17:34
is a star dragon, a unit of 6 DP standard champ war banner, and a unit of 5 standard champ and bsb over kill in 2000 points it works great with the support from 2 bolt throwers, 5 scouts, and archers, but i'm starting to get THE LOOK from some players?

WhiteKnight
26-03-2008, 19:43
I would say instead of all of that shooting won't give as much cover as two mages and 2-3 bolt throwers. Instead of archers, go spearmen because they'll have at least 10 attacks in any formation on the charge or when holding a charge.

neo_ebrick
26-03-2008, 19:58
my question was is the combo of 2 units of DP and a star dragon, too much for a friendly game? i do have a unit of spear elves in the list thanks for your reply

aenarion67
27-03-2008, 07:22
i think taking more than one unit of dp is kind of leaing towards a bit of cheese. total cheese would be taking star dragon and two units of 10 dps. i like to take foot sloggers. but if ur gona take a star dragon u might aswell get a unit of 10 dps to acompany it to keep up. maybe even a lion chariot.

neo_ebrick
27-03-2008, 17:26
i bought a lion chariot because i thought it looked cool and all the str 5 hits, but is it worth it's points? 140 points for a d6 impact plus 4 for the lions, and the crew get 2 str 5 hits. so 6 plus a d6 str 5 hits. for 150 points bare bone DPs get 10 str 5 hits with a 2+ armour save and can march. of course they don't cause fear but is it that important?
what do you think Dp's or chariot?

WhiteKnight
27-03-2008, 20:20
Dragon princes are faster and will probably cause more wounds and cause them faster. Go with the DPs instead of the chariot.

Armilthuan
28-03-2008, 11:07
Frontage.

If you figth corner to corner with a unit of Dargon Princes, you get 2 Attacks (+1 for the mount).

If you fight corner to corner you get the full benefits of the Lion chariot, impact hits, Crew attacks Lion attacks...

Smart opponents will not let you manouvre up his flanks with a unit of Dragon Princes, so a frontal Breakthrough may be nessecary.

There is not much in the world of Warhammer that can stand a charge from a unit of Dragon princes AND a Lion chariot, even in the front.

Your anti-Dragon Princes man,
Armilthuan
:P

WhiteKnight
28-03-2008, 18:48
Yeah, if you charge a unit with both Dps and the Lion Chariot, there will most likely be a break test and maybe even an overkill against an SSU like a unit of 5-10 swordmasters.

aenarion67
28-03-2008, 23:03
i font really like the lion chariot so much. i would much prefer 5 dragon princes. or i like 2 tiranoc chariots rather than a lion chariot.

TK421
29-03-2008, 06:48
My Lion Chariot has done ok, I just wish it had scythes. Seriously, would it be that bad an idea to just take a couple spear tips from the back ranks who never get to fight anyway and stick 'em on the wheels of our chariots? Or is that too spikey and Dark Elf like? :wtf:

Von Wibble
29-03-2008, 11:17
I take both lion chariot and dragon princes. The frontage is one thing already mentioned in favour of the chariot. The other is fear - for some reason my dragon princes habitually fail their check to charge fear causers (last time even with dragonhorn active -this cost me the game). No such problem exists for lion chariot. I agree 2 tiranocs are better but how often do you have the specials to spare? I never do.

Has anyone considered mounting lots of characters on chariots to free up special choices elsewhere? I would never do this with a mage but nobles and princes can get a decent save and protection .

neo-ebrick - if that is the exact list then is has an obvious weakness - magic. If not could I see it?

winkypinky - the dow cavalry may be mounted but for the most part it offers nothing not already available to HE. Al Muktar's and Tichiwichy (whatever it is) are too fragile, standard dow cav is about silver helm standard (and slower/less armoured). That leaves Voland's - a good unit with S6 charge but dragon princes are better.

That said, if you want a cav list and have used up all your special it could be an option. At 2500pts, something like

Prince, mounted, armour, star lance, helm of fortune, talisman of saphery

Commander bsb, mounted, lance, radiant gem (battle banner also an option if you can spare the points)

2 x mage (my preferred items are ring of fury + silver wand, jewel of dusk + dispel scroll)

roughly 750pts for all 4.

Then core - 2 x 17 spearmen. Mages go here. Can act as bait for a cav trap and will take a nasty charge to shift. 375ish pts.

Special - 5 dragon princes, War banner. Prince's unit. 195

5 dragon princes, drakemaster. Bsb unit 170

2 x lion chariot. 280

6 dragon princes, drakemaster, amulet of light 215

6 ellyrion reavers. 100

Voland's Venators 300?

2 x eagle. 100

Roughly 2500 with a little tweaking here and there. 3 nasty cav units and 1 quite nasty + chariots and support. Not an army I'd personally use but what do you think?

neo_ebrick
29-03-2008, 11:26
von wibble in my list i have 4 dispel dice and two scrolls a lvl 1 scroll caddy and a gem on my noble

winkypinky
29-03-2008, 13:44
winkypinky - the dow cavalry may be mounted but for the most part it offers nothing not already available to HE. Al Muktar's and Tichiwichy (whatever it is) are too fragile, standard dow cav is about silver helm standard (and slower/less armoured). That leaves Voland's - a good unit with S6 charge but dragon princes are better.


The point was not really the awesome-o power of the Cavalry, but the fact that you can have 7 mounted heroes in a army. Even though some are bound in units. You will not have a "HE cavalry" army if you make the choice of a lot of DoW cavalry. But you would have a DoW cavalry army, with a bucket load of mounted heoes. (plus chariots and expensive but elite knights with 2 attacks) Also fragility on units are a bit pointless to rule them out. (even more true on cavalry) You have to look at the role which the unit will perform and the battlefield and then judge if its abilities are good enough. And I am pretty sure that I really wouldnt mind haing 2 units of lightcavalry in a army.
Also volands vs. DP's is sort of a fun case I think. Since it is more or less the same as WL's vs. SM's. (strenght vs. attacks) And even though extra attacks is "better" s6 is still very good against the right things. But less powerfull than 2a's overall. And I could Imagine a 2-1 of 2a's/s6 would not be a bad idea. (or a 3-1 maybe)
- And it offers something, it offers 3 guys that can take hero's and powerfull champs in challanges. (That dwarf with a great weapon if just a pain for DP's if he call a challange)

Von Wibble
29-03-2008, 19:04
Yes, but I would still rule the 2 units I mentioned out as they are expensive as well as fragile. In the role of light cav the simple Dow units or reavers are better. In the role of heavy cav the dragon princes are better (also note they have WS5 and immunity to fire over Voland's). In teh medium cav role the silver helms win through. Since the mounted heroes don't have any items apart from those listed they add at best a couple of kills which doesn't justify the expensive starting prices of the units.

neo-ebrick - 4 dice and 2 scrolls is about what I expected. I don't think your army is unfair at all. Nasty, yes, but not cheesy.

WhiteKnight
30-03-2008, 02:07
Has anyone ever tried using the armour of stars in a character? I've tried it and a unit couldn't attack me in a vital turn for them. I broke that unit and another unit. Amazing magic armour.

Wodan.BR
30-03-2008, 17:56
What about teclis? Do you have a favorite lore to use with him? i've tried, shadows, life... and while i think shadows was better for the flexibility it gives (with the movement spells) i thought it lacked some real damage making.
I've thought of fire, but not sure if it'd be worth it.

WhiteKnight
31-03-2008, 02:03
Fire is decent with Teclis, but I think that maybe the Lore of Heavens or lore of death. Casting Drain Life with Teclis will be easy as tying a shoe.

fubukii
31-03-2008, 03:05
i actually run a list with 2 mages on chariots and 2 nobles on chariots backed up by 5 units of dragon princes it works fairly well, the mages are just there to scroll caddie and take the chariot and a Us5 flanker, the nobles are bare boned, with lance hvy armor etc.

isidril93
31-03-2008, 12:10
anyone noticed how the gem of hoeth DOES NOT let you use armour anymore?

wildkarrde0
31-03-2008, 12:22
untrue you can still were armour and cast with the gem as you cast spells in armour if you access to that equiment as a option. I thought that too when looking at manfred in the VC as no where does it say that his armor allows him to cast made look up the rules on it

Von Wibble
31-03-2008, 15:26
Has anyone ever tried using the armour of stars in a character? I've tried it and a unit couldn't attack me in a vital turn for them. I broke that unit and another unit. Amazing magic armour.

It is very useful. Be warned though, if combined with a great weapon and facing another character with asf, if you take just 1 wound you won't get to strike back which could also be decisive.

wildkarrde is correct on the radiant gem.

Teclis - basically any lore with at least 3 useful spells. Depending on the opponent also. I like Beasts, Metal, Light (vs undead) and High myself. Drain Life would be risky to pull off as I'd really prefer to stand back with a T2 character, away from suicide assassins.

fubukii - did the mages not get shot? I often like a BSB in chariot with amulet of light (magic impact hits for running over wraiths :D), enchanted shield.
What do you use for core? 2 x 10 Archers?

Jow
31-03-2008, 16:29
It is very useful. Be warned though, if combined with a great weapon and facing another character with asf, if you take just 1 wound you won't get to strike back which could also be decisive.



Actually, with two ASF characters it goes on straight Initiative and ignores that you have a great weapon.

Von Wibble
31-03-2008, 19:45
You are correct. I was forgetting it was a house rule we have - we play if 2 ASF units are in contact the abilities basically cancel each other out. So one model charging into another who is armed with a great weapon strikes first. Which makes sense. As opposed to the official rule which is up there with royal pegasus can't join pegasus knights in stupidity.

Using official rules, a High elf facing a vampire with nightshroud would still suffer from having armour of stars though. Or if alone, facing a chariot.

fubukii
31-03-2008, 22:43
fubukii - did the mages not get shot? I often like a BSB in chariot with amulet of light (magic impact hits for running over wraiths :D), enchanted shield.
What do you use for core? 2 x 10 Archers?


yea they do get shot a good bit, luckily they only get hit on 6 1-5 hits the chariot instead (so everything but cannons and direct stone thrower hits take a few shots to kill the chariot). Luckily the magic phase happens before the shooting phase so i can throw my scrolls b4 a mage dies :) And also since they are shooting my mages, as opposed to my heroes or dragon princes and eagles, i make it with a hefty combat force most of the time :P

Jow
01-04-2008, 15:09
How many core do you guys use?

I'd say I'm in the minority because I use atleast 4 every time(2x ten man archer units, and 2x 20 man spear units).

Armilthuan
01-04-2008, 15:21
Minimum 3
2x archers
1x Spearelf
Sometimes a unit of Seagaurd for archmage protection

Machiavelli
01-04-2008, 16:12
I'am building a new army which army would be based on a unit of DP with full command, magic resolution of 2, ward save of 5+ and a BSB with it giving d6 combat resolution!
That's 250+218 points. Better then the crappy choosen!

Spyro35
01-04-2008, 16:24
I have noticed that no one seems to be fielding Lothern Sea Guards. Why is that? Sure, they're 12pts a piece... but thats only 1 pt more than archers and the flexibility they bring to the battlefield far outweighs the 1 pt?

Also, I reasoned that the GT winning HE list fielded Sea Guards for a reason. Any takes on this?

Jow
01-04-2008, 17:38
I have noticed that no one seems to be fielding Lothern Sea Guards. Why is that? Sure, they're 12pts a piece... but thats only 1 pt more than archers and the flexibility they bring to the battlefield far outweighs the 1 pt?

Also, I reasoned that the GT winning HE list fielded Sea Guards for a reason. Any takes on this?

I'm a big fan of LSG. I think they make a solid choice if you want a more static shooting line. They also can make a great flank anchor.

TK421
01-04-2008, 20:13
How big do you run your Seaguard? 15? Want them big enough to make them actually useful in combat but not so big that you aren't wasting those bows you paid for....

Jow
01-04-2008, 20:19
How big do you run your Seaguard? 15? Want them big enough to make them actually useful in combat but not so big that you aren't wasting those bows you paid for....

I've used 20 in a 10x2 on a hill before. As long as you have time to add ranks you're good to go.

neo_ebrick
01-04-2008, 20:44
the thing about seaguard is 12 points, but with stand and shoot then ASF it can hurt the enemy bad.
the fact the can fill 2 rolls if need be make then worth it in my book

Spyro35
01-04-2008, 21:10
I think LSGs should be anywhere from 10 - 15. I personally prefer 10 because 15 seems a bit of a waste. I suppose it also depends on how you use them. Seeing as they're rather pricy for core unit, I'll be using them as a flanking force most of the time and have my bigger blocks of spearmen to take the charge.

WhiteKnight
02-04-2008, 03:36
I use LSG at 15 because they still get ASF and Fight in 3 ranks.

neo_ebrick
02-04-2008, 06:56
in 2000 points there the best choice i personaly use 2 units of 10. 10 attacks on charge, if charged 10 shots then x attacks. i give them shields so i only spend 260 points on core. i never use to use them until i read the post from the uk GT and Austrialian GT. in 2000 point they fill 2 roles for cheap. shoot at fast cav, flyers, flankers and have the hitting power to help baby sit your bolt throwers.

Abduction
02-04-2008, 19:16
I plan to use 2 units of 20 spearelves and 1 unit of 10 archers, but if I can afford it I would like to have another unit of 10 archers.

Spyro35
02-04-2008, 20:11
in 2000 points there the best choice i personaly use 2 units of 10. 10 attacks on charge, if charged 10 shots then x attacks. i give them shields so i only spend 260 points on core. i never use to use them until i read the post from the uk GT and Austrialian GT. in 2000 point they fill 2 roles for cheap. shoot at fast cav, flyers, flankers and have the hitting power to help baby sit your bolt throwers.

Unless I'm mistaken, but High Elves lost the ability to shoot in two ranks. Are you saying you put them in one rank to take a charge?

TK421
02-04-2008, 20:29
Hope for a hill?

neo_ebrick
02-04-2008, 21:32
i put them on a hill if i can, i reform right before the charge. but yes i start them 10 wide. my two unit's of dp's usually take the heavy forces to leave my lsg units for fast cav and flyers.

Armilthuan
03-04-2008, 08:28
I use my Lothern Seaguard for Archmage babysitting. With 15 attacks and 5-10 stand and shoot, they can take care of most enemy magehunters. If they are not threatened in combat, they redeploy to 10/5 which gives me 10 bowshots on the ground. (or 15 on hill, but deploying so wide on a hill is maybe not so favourable)

That way, I have a bodygaurd which always does something instead of sitting around, poking their noses...

brambleten
03-04-2008, 16:38
i dont use sea guard, and i havent used DPs since i had a unit of 5 looking after my general ( a noble as i had an archmage). they got shot by waywatchers. 1 got IDed, then the remaining 4 failed their armour saves with 1's. the general in the following turn got IDed after stopping 3 ID arrows with his ward. the rest of the time i just slog it out on foot, although i did try putting a noble on great eagle at 1500 points to tie up some of my opponents empire gunline. he took out a mortar and a cannon, then continuously dueled with a warrior priest. does anyone else stick their nobles on eagles?

neo_ebrick
03-04-2008, 17:39
remember theres always units that destyoy other units you have to watch out for them and either advoid them or use a counter. I personaly love the new dp's all fail on 1's sounds like bad luck to me i would recomend trying a unit of 6 again

gd09garett
03-04-2008, 22:50
Here is my current 'Swiss' HE army

Prince- Great Weapon, Heavy Armor, Tem's Gauntlets - 198
in 24 Spearmen [full command] - 241

25 Spearmen [full command] - 250

lvl 2 Mage [Beasts lore usually], Trickster's Pendant - 165
[or Sacred incense]
in 17 Swordmasters [Full command], Banner of Sorcery - 335

BSB- Armour of Protection, Great weapon - 163
in 17 White Lions [full command] - 285

3 Great Eagles - 150

2 Tiranoc Chariots - 170

Mage [lvl 2- High magic] Ring of Fury, steed - 187
in 5 Reavers [bows], musician - 102


Basically, the eagles and reavers deploy first, by which time the enemy has usually committed at least one of his less mobile units. The four infantry will then deploy on one half of the battlefield with the White Lions closest to the centre [to seal the half of the field], then the 2 spear units and the swordmasters on the flank, the chariots will be the gaps of these infantry units. The group of four will advance in a echeleon line formation while the Reavers and Eagles harass and the slow the enemy on the unoccupied side of the field. When the swordmasters defeat the enemy facing them, they turn towards the centre and the units engaged with the spears and begin rolling their flank.

These are the same basic tactics I used with great success with my Empire army in 6th edition [which was mostly free company, with a single unit of Spearmen, some flagellents, 2 units of pistoliers, and many archers for the deployment advantage], so I suspect it will also work here.

Volker the Mad Fiddler

WhiteKnight
04-04-2008, 05:21
Wow, I can just imagine all of the annoying eagles going on flanks and having the spears charging the front. That's a lot of attacks for only about 390 points.

Avatar111x
21-04-2008, 23:50
Has anyone ever tried using the armour of stars in a character? I've tried it and a unit couldn't attack me in a vital turn for them. I broke that unit and another unit. Amazing magic armour.

There was another thread about using that and Talismen of Loes as a hitman. Get charged by a big unit with a character and get the challeneg going. With any luck you can take him out and the wound from Talismen of Loec teleports you away without losing combat.

lachlanwizard
23-04-2008, 10:43
I think that a properly competitive army shouldn't really on dangerous reactive approaches to defeating the enemy?

What is everyones opinion on ellyrion reavers? So far they look great on paper. Don't think bows are anywhere near worth it though.

DoomedToRepeatIt
23-04-2008, 19:27
I'm not a light cavalry fan, so I've never fielded them before. Therefore, I can't weigh in on the Reavers.

That Guy
24-04-2008, 04:49
I'm not a light cavalry fan, so I've never fielded them before. Therefore, I can't weigh in on the Reavers.

You're not a light cavalry fan? Holy crap! I always take light cavalry.

1. It march blocks
2. It can redirect charges
3. It can charge a flank to negate ranks
4. It can use fast movement to take last minute table quarters
5. It can use fast movement to take out warmachines and missile troops.
6. It can bait!
7. It can bait frenzied units

And that's just off the top of my head. They can even do more.

Of course, High Elves have the Great Eagle, which does all of the above (except #3) for much cheaper cost. That's why you don't see Reavers in many lists. And it's a good reason.

DoomedToRepeatIt
24-04-2008, 15:59
I'm not saying I don't realize what makes light cavalry good and/or useful, I'm just saying that I, personally, do not use them.

WhiteKnight
25-04-2008, 02:10
I'm considering using them in 1000 list and maybe a 500 list.

PeeJay
25-04-2008, 10:41
Doesn't anyone use them no more? I mean they have A 2 and S 5, is it something I do not see?

Personaly I have had great use for them, especialy since you don't have the 0-1 unit limitation, and only need to field 5 of them. I used them as flank chargers or pursuit blockers with great success several times, and since 5 of them only cost 75 points, but are good for A 10 with S 5 @ WS 6.

I agree, PGs cause fear and have 4+ Ward and WL have more S and are stubborn, but still I like the A 2 and WS 6.

-Just curious

TK421
25-04-2008, 13:47
I love more Swordmasters, they just have a lot of trouble when faced with any shooting at all and since my main opponents include Empire, Dwarfs and Elves... I usually take a more durable unit.

Phoenix Guard are my new favourite though. So awesome.

lachlanwizard
26-04-2008, 06:47
I'm not saying I don't realize what makes light cavalry good and/or useful, I'm just saying that I, personally, do not use them.

So, you are telling us that you have an opinion, you wont tell us, and you have absolutely no contribution at all?

I find my fast cavalry incredibly strong for what it does, cheap maneuverable missiles to take away rank bonus. Most high elf lists are relying on brute force approaches for the time being.

DoomedToRepeatIt
26-04-2008, 22:21
I'm saying that they don't fit my playstyle. I don't like misdirection or dividing one's forces; I'd rather keep my troops blocked up, close together for mutual support, and always within someone else's charge envelope.

Flankers, as a rule, can't afford to do that. It is their job to range out and pull enemy troops away from their main concentrations, right? Which means that they are all on their own -- which, to me, is something far less than an ideal situation. Thus, I do not use them. When it comes to cavalry, I stick with Dragon Princes and Silver Helms -- they've got speed, armor, and hitting power enough for me.

CHOOBER SNIPES
29-04-2008, 01:30
I love swordmasters as well, ever since they went on a rampage (actually i think it was godlike) against an ogre army. It was my first time playing against ogres in more than 750 pts. Im never really ready for the whole 4 S4 attacks per dude. The guy was kind of a jerk, as he charged my 3 units of DP's on turn one. Because of my luck 2 ran off the board from fear. Well, he got what was comin cus even after he debated with me about how thats a fair move (despite me showing him the passage about the "making clearly unreachable charges is cheating"), we got to the fighting. So my Swordmasters were the vanguard as he had no shooting. He just had a bunch of units of bulls, and it wasnt a very strong list. my magic shut him down so it came down to my infantry vs his ogres. he dual charged the SM's, but i got within impact area and he could only touch a little bit of one guy from the other unit. ended up 7 SM's vs 4 ogres. The SM's killed the whole unit facing them, then took one casualty from the one ogre from the second ogre ( the first ogre unit had taken 2 wounds from a RBT). anyway, long story short, the SM unit killed i think 7 units of ogres. I dont know why he kept charging into them, and it kind of took away from the win cus if someone does that you know they arent very good at all. The way i look at it SM's have the same hitting power as a DP on the charge, but are a bit more fragile. If you use terrain or friendly units to your advantage, you can use them effectively. I have played Empire gunlines and Dwarf ones and they are a pain. But if you use a 6 man unit of SM or a unit of lik 13, and have other threats then they wont get shot too much. Worst comes to worst and the enemy spends their time shooting at the SM's and leaves the 20 man block of white lions untouched. I know it doesnt always work that way, but try to make SM's seem to be a very little threat, and you will get great results. 6 SM's = hitting power of 6 charging DP's.

Countsprattcula
29-04-2008, 22:39
I'm very tempted to get some SMs as i can get them for fairly cheep, i just worry when it comes to them being shot at, as they are very fragile with just 5+ saves i can see there huge potential when it comes to combat though that seems very good.

How do other people use there SMs? (I know alot of People use them as MSU and flank charge with them)

And what are your ways of protecting them, other than the ones mentioned by Choober Snipes.

My main opponets are Orcs and Goblins and Wood Elves any thoughts there? (on how effective they are against these armies, i can forsee WEs being problematic)

Thanks in advance, CS

Copenhagan
30-04-2008, 01:53
I use swordmasters in a 5by4 block with a character in it. I have not had many problems getting a lest some off them in to combat. A good way to protect them is to take the seer staff on one of your mages and take the 3 spell in the Heavens lore as it gives you a ward save vs. shooting.


Also what do you think about the new FAQ in relation it high elves?

WhiteKnight
30-04-2008, 05:34
Swordmasters in a block of 7x3 are great in combat. I took out two units of grave guard with them.

Kloud13
30-04-2008, 06:00
I like my SwordMasters with a Prince with Great Weapon, and the Sacred Incense, and Whatever else you want to give him. The Sacred incense makes the Sword masters just that little bit harder to shoot dead. Also Standard of Balance Eliminates any fear issues.

Countsprattcula
30-04-2008, 15:50
Thats a very good point about uising sacred insense, i feel with this amount of postive feedback on Sms i will probally buy some.

Thanks, CS

Marwynn
30-04-2008, 18:44
Well a simpler answer is to use your infantry together. Screen them behind some core units, probably Spears or LSG.

That way you can set up a flank charge for the Sword Masters. They will kill a lot but unless they're taken in large numbers it'll be hard for them to win combats with armies with a lot of static CR.

Another to try, assuming you have a lot of Magic already, is to get a Seerstaff with the Howling Wind. Hey, it's fluffy as well.

Countsprattcula
01-05-2008, 18:50
Yeh not a bad idea o'll try a few of these things out.

Thanks,CS

WhiteKnight
04-05-2008, 02:01
Try making a wall or line of units that will accept charges except against blood knights. Against blood knights, flee, then charge with white lions or swordmasters.

aenarion67
04-05-2008, 03:20
in my 1000pts occasionnally i run a huge blobk of swordmasters. this is like only against armies with little or no shooting.
it has a noble with battle banner, greatweapon, high elf mage maxed put on dispel. one unit of 10 spears. about 30-40 swordmasters with ammulet of light and lion stadard. i know its all eggs in one basket but hey! it works. maseed put kills with combat res.
starting with 3 ranks, standard, BSB, out number (elves out numbering!!!), +D6 extra combat res before combat even starts. and then comes the bazillion str 5 hits and nobles str 6 attacks. pure killing ability. ethereal monsters easy ammulet of light.

Copenhagan
04-05-2008, 19:21
I thought of a kinda mean tactic for chariots. You take two Tiranoc chariots. One has a noble BSB with the Battle Banner and great weapon and the other is just an normal chariot(you could put another noble in it but that would cost to many points). You then charge these to chariots into pretty much any enemy unit that can be broken by combat res. And on average against 4+ save unit you will win by about 4. So most armies are testing on 3 or 4 leadership.

My math.
6 impact hits
2 hits form the noble
2 of the horses hit
2 of the spear elves hit

Wounds.
5 wounds form impact hits -2 save
2 wounds from noble -2 save
1 wound from the horse
1 wound from the spear elf -1 save

Saves.
1 save from the impact hits and the noble
1 save from the horse
1 save from the spear elf

Combat res.
Enemy
outnumber +1
ranks +3
standard +1

Elf
wounds +6
BSB +1
Battle Banner +3

Countsprattcula
04-05-2008, 22:12
yeah not a bad tactic but qwite expensive, should be a nasty shock to the enemy genral though.

nice one, CS

WhiteKnight
05-05-2008, 01:05
That is devastating but a lot of armies can counter that. Chariots need to be split up and hit the flanks.

aenarion67
05-05-2008, 11:08
a problem with chariot is that there to vulnerable. cannon ball lose your chariot. turn 2 lose bsb

W0lf
05-05-2008, 11:18
This is kinda a joke list but:

Noble with 20 pts of upgrades...
2x 10 archers
2x RBT
5x 21 Swordmasters with FC.

2250.

Dalhara
05-05-2008, 14:08
This is kinda a joke list but:

Noble with 20 pts of upgrades...
2x 10 archers
2x RBT
5x 21 Swordmasters with FC.

2250.

hehe could be fun if you know your not gonna face too much shooting and magic, your main line is like a big wood chipper with all those sword masters XD

brambleten
15-05-2008, 21:36
i found out last week how brilliant casting drain magic just once per phase can effectively stop a VC army in its tracks magic wise. it boosts the normally easy to cast IoN to a 7, effectively cutting its usefulness in half. this may have partly been due to the fact that i took teclis, as i was expecting to face mannfred or vlad, so i managed to get drain magic off twice irresistibly in the first magic phase. needless to say but vanhels on a 13 doesnt work too well. i only needed a scroll once in the game, and that was after the blood knights had stomped my other mage. the highlight of the game however was skewering konrad with a bolt, through the Drakenhof banner save, as he failed hhis look out sir roll :D. moral of the story : always look to cast drain magic if you are light on scrolls

winkypinky
16-05-2008, 15:00
If you made it 5*18 Swordmasters and added some magic defence and 1 great eagle it could work very well.

monkeymatt
22-05-2008, 15:35
I have recently started High elves and am wondering what Heavy Infanty you find best.

From looking at stats I am thinking about facing cetain types of armies:

Close Combat:1.Swordsmasters 2.White Lions 3.Phoenix Guard
Shooty:1.White Lions 2.Phoenix Guard 3. Swordsmasters

But I'm really not sure which ones to spend my money on or should I get a mixture of the three??

brambleten
22-05-2008, 16:10
my first choice is phoenix guard, due to the ward saves and causing fear. they also carry around my banner of sorcery, so that it gets good protection. if i have any space or points left i throw in a few WLs due to my swordsmasters dying all the time from shooting.

AllisterCaine
14-08-2008, 23:31
That is devastating but a lot of armies can counter that. Chariots need to be split up and hit the flanks.

Not lion chariots. 2 of those badasses can charge a 20-man uber-unit in the front and break them easily.

WhiteKnight
15-08-2008, 06:04
thats if u roll high on impact hits and don't miss many hits, ya. Tiranoc chariots will beast on flanks though.

Leonathion
11-09-2008, 00:20
Great thread you huys, I bumped it so we can keep it going... but I don't have anything particular to say at the moment, will post a list after the weekend...

WhiteKnight
11-09-2008, 05:13
What do you guys think of lothern sea guard compared to Spearmen? I think they're a great alternative and will work well in lists. I now use them in all my lists to get a solid amount of shooting with 3 bolt throwers with them and then have an archmage with 2 mages and a Noble on an Eagle with Lance, Reaver Bow, Dragon Armour, and shield.

Kloud13
13-09-2008, 23:41
I built a Prince on a Dragon modeled with a lance. I would like to use him in an upcoming tournament. The Tourney is 2000pts.

I would really like some input on who and what to use in the rest of the Army, and pointers on how they all work together.

Prince of Caledor
14-09-2008, 12:25
random nasty trick: prince on star dragon with a lance, dragon armor, shield, and the null stone. have a mage with the lore of heavens cast second sign of amul on the turn your dragon-rider charges the enemy uber-unit. watch the smile fade from your opponent's face when he learns that his lord is naked, and that game-winning magic banner does nothing but look pretty as it flutters in the wind. the nasty part is that the second sign of amul does not actually target the prince, and thus he and his dragon can use the d3 re-rolls in case the dice forsake them. this is very effective against any army that can't shoot well. it's particularly useful against vampires, ogres, brettonians, and warrriors of chaos. daemon princes will more than likely have daemonic gifts, but if your opponent goes for a chaos lord, he's probably going to be dragon food.

Prince of Caledor
14-09-2008, 12:26
<edit> whoops. double-post. please delete

Treadhead_1st
14-09-2008, 20:36
I've read through chunks of this tactica, and it seems the general consensus is Dragon Princes are better than Silver Helms. However, I've heard good things about Ellyrian Reavers, and I wonder how they fare in comparison to other units. What cavalry would you recommend to round out this force? I apologise for posting my whole army list, but I feel you can't recomend which Cavalry would be tactically sound if you do not know the rest of the force that it's supporting.

Loose theme was that the Leader would be based on Beowulf (saga not movie) and an exile/lost theme. Originally I had no Bolt Thrower, but found I was lacking in the shooting phase, and after hearing good things (notably the multiple-shot) I decided to add one, much against the theme as it was.

Lords

Prince:Foe Bane, Dragon Armour, Shield, Vambraces of Defence & Talisman of Loec.
252

Heroes

Mage: Level 2, Ring of Fury & Chariot.
260

Mage: Level 2, Trickster's Pendant & Dispel Scroll.
185

Noble: Blade of Sea Gold, Dragon Armour, Shield & Barded Elven Steed.
149

Core

20 Spearmen: Musician & Standard Bearer.
195

20 Spearmen: Musician & Standard Bearer.
195

Special

10 Elite Infantry (either White Lions or Phoenix Guard) - Standard Bearer: Banner of Sorcery.
212

5 Ellyrian Reavers: Bows & Musician.
112

5 Ellyrian Reavers: Bows & Musician.
112

8 Shadow Warriors: Shadow Walker.
140

Tiranoc Chariot.
85

Rare

Bolt Thrower.
100

1997

General plan:

Spearmen and Elites make a battle line - Mage (focuses on stopping enemy magic - scroll, pendant and Drain Magic spells) in one Spear unit (going to drop Shadow Walker to boost second unit to 21 men). Prince in the Elites, to begin with anyway (for protection).

Cavalry and Noble (attached to one unit) take one flank, Chariots (plus Mage Chariot) and Shadow Warriors take other flank. The idea is the Noble adds hitting power to the Reavers (he's very good against enemy Knights) whilst the Mage can cast Fire Lore (not to mention the bound spell) on a fairly fast move - and can handle herself in combat if needs be (2 chariots tag-teaming a unit).

Bolt Thrower picks on big targets, heavily armoured blocks, or rival Swordsmasters and the like. Against enemy characters or monsters (anything with multi-wounds basically) the Prince is my protection. Either leaves the unit (for something roaming behind the lines, leaving the Elites to bolster the Spearmen) or sticks with 'em so he can blat a Character and they the Mount.


As I said, the thing bugging me is the Cavalry:

Reavers (Light Cavalry IMO) seem lightly equipped to be my main flanking thrust (even if they are supported by a Noble) - but they are mobile and cheap. For a few points more per unit, they could be Silver Helms (Medium) - which are undoubtedly better armoured. But the Silver Helms seem to pale in ability next to the Dragon Princes (Heavy) who cost a bit more again.

Taking 1 unit of each type (Light and either a Medium or Heavy) seems a bad idea to me - surely opponents will direct missile fire at the lightest unit, rendering it ineffective, and then send something very hitty/survivable against the Medium/Heavies - ie, can send suitable forces against each faction, thus stopping each units' advantages before they come into play.


Do you think I should stick with my Reavers, or take something with more sticking power (they tend to get heavily mauled, but do a lot of damage in the process, so I don't know whether they're worth it or not - give out a lot of VP as they nearly *always* die to the last man, but they do screw enemy plans up and take out a good few units, and play havoc in the back field).

Finally: what Elite Infantry suit this list - Phoenix Guard seem to have the edge in survivability, against both Chariots and Missiles, and thus in the end do equal damage (to a Chariot) since more survive to hit...yet the White Lions are packing high-Str weaponry, something I lack in this list. so far been leaning towards Lions, despite the points suggesting Phoenix' are better - fluff suits lions more, but I like the Guard more - anyone got any advice on this?

Many thanks to anyone that can advise me on which cavalry to take!

Lord of Nonsensical Crap
07-11-2008, 08:03
I recently decided to do a Chrace-themed army, and I put this list together as a result. Please tell me what you think of it.



Thoughts: Tactics-wise, the plan is: White Lions and Prince hold the line or advance as necessary, Chariot and Lion Riders go on either flank, Archers and RBT give supporting fire, and...thats it. Any thoughts/criticisms? Any ideas on improving this list would be appreciated.


Prince- great weapon, Armour of Caledor, Vambraces of Defence- 236
Noble- BSB, barded steed, Sword of Might, dragon armour, shield, Helm of Fortune- 174
Mage- level 1, 2 dispel scrolls- 150
20 Spearmen- full command, War Banner- 245
10 Archers- 110
18 White Lions- full command, Lion Standard- 310
17 White Lions- full command- 285
5 Lion Riders (Dragon Princes)- musician, standard, Banner of Ellyrion- 195
Lion Chariot- 140
Great Eagle- 50
Repeater Bolt Thrower- 100

1995

WhiteKnight
07-11-2008, 17:20
For cavalry, dragon princes are easily the 2nd best unit of cavalry in the game, next to Blood Knights. Ellyrian reavers are good for march blocking and shooting down low toughness models. Silver Helms were essential for all cavalry armies but since that is not allowed anymore, they are underused. If you want a unit that does a lot of damage, go Dragon Princes.

Desert Rain
07-11-2008, 21:21
But a unit of 5 SH without upgrades is just 105 pts, about as much as 5 ER, but you get a much better armour save. Though you lose the fast cavlary rule.

Countsprattcula
08-11-2008, 22:13
I would say you need some more magic defense in your Charce army, a second mage would be a good idea. Also on the theam of Charce for your Lion Riders (not sure if you already have this in mind) using the lions you get from chariots for the steeds would make the coolest looking cavalry ever!!

Also glad to see this thread back.

CS

Elves All The Way
09-11-2008, 00:38
on a different subject, how would you unit shadow warriors? i usually use a unit of ten, is that 2 much?

Desert Rain
09-11-2008, 10:11
I take them in a unit of six, that's usually enough, maybe one more would be better. Personally I think that 10 of them is too much points in a scouting unit.

happy_doctor
09-11-2008, 12:37
What do you people think of Core-heavy armies? I recently acquired a large amount of elven spearmen and archers and plan on fielding an infantry-heavy army, mainly relying on core units and less-used special choices.

Would an army with lots of spearelves forming a solid battle-line work well?

I'm thinking something like:

HEROES
Archmage, lvl3, Jewel of Dusk, 2xDispel Scroll, Ring of Fury

CORE
20 Spearelves, FC
20 Spearelves, FC
20 Spearelves, FC
20 Lothern Seaguard, shield, FC
10 Archers
10 Archers

SPECIAL
5 Silver Helms, shield
5 Silver Helms, shield
5 Shadow Warriors
5 Shadow Warriors
Tiranoc Chariot
Tiranoc Chariot

RARE
Repeater Bolt Thrower
Repeater Bolt Thrower
Great Eagle
Great Eagle

For an approximate total of 2250 points.

I was really impressed by how large a force one can field foregoing the more expensive special choices! Bearing in mind that this is a try at a balanced force, how do you think it will fare?

Has anyone tried using lots of core troops with the latest High Elf Book?

P.S. on the Shadow Warriors question, I'd never use them in units greater than 7, as they are too vulnerable to invest a large amount of points in them. A unit of 5 can take out warmachines with ease, march-block and shoot lone characters quite reliably.

Desert Rain
09-11-2008, 13:15
Your list will do fairly well until you hit something with either T4 and/or more or an armour save better than 4+. It doesn't have enough high strengh attacks to deal with such foes. It will, however, rip apart everything with lowet T and AS. And it's almost completely plastic which is a good thing.

Elves All The Way
10-11-2008, 06:19
well in my experience spearelves r extreamly deadly, they may not have high strengh but they attack in three ranks and with high elf archers you can keep up a a hail of arrows then smash the ememy with 16 attacks from each unit of spearelves when the emeny gets close. and thats just the core u still got sh and sw

Dragon Prince of Caledor
11-11-2008, 15:18
I always find my spearmen as dead or as bait.. Any suggestions on how to keep them alive? They normally get run down by chariots or get hit with brets. I spend the better part of those types using their ranks to add to combat res whilst doing all the killing and death absorbing by more hardy units..

My most generic list (i call it this because i seldomly take the same list because they are fun DRAGONS!! DRAGON PRINCES MAGIC all make for fun games..) includes:
Korhil
Level 4 Mage w bound items and other goodies
BSB on horse with lance and shield etc.
15 spearmen
10 archers

5 Dragon Princes
15 PG
15 wl
10 or 14 swordmasters (not sure how many points will allow because this is just an approximation)
Lion chariot
Tiranoc Chariot

2 birds

banner of sorcery too! Magic rules my life ;)

I like to kill stuff face to face hence the lack of missiles. THey are painted and assembled and good to pick off random pains and claim a corner. What do people think of the killy list? I have fun playing with it.

Desert Rain
11-11-2008, 17:33
It looks very hitty, but I'm not a big fan of this type of small armies with small units.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
11-11-2008, 18:00
Really? What do you play with beefy ones? Just curious :) I like being able to move around a bunch of units in a finesse cordinated manner :)

Dragon Prince of Caledor
11-11-2008, 18:14
What are some of the dirtiest tricks you have ever pulled. I was thinking about this and it just occurred to me that I have no dirty tricks that I have ever pulled; minus hitting a chariot units (boneheads) with a star lance.. Anyone else?

Elves All The Way
12-11-2008, 05:32
lol the dirtiest trick is using caradryan to challenge the other guys general, just let him die and the opponents general takes D6 wounds with no armour save :P hoping he forgets his rule that is

Vase
12-11-2008, 06:08
Hey, just incase anyone missed my post in the main tactics forum, I'm currently working on a project to compile a massive all-encompassing HE tactica. I've been working on it over at the LO forum. If anyone wants to participate you can write an article or PM something you have already written. Also, if you know of some great material out there that has long since been forgotten and is unknown to those us from the newer generation of HE players, by all means enlighten me :) Thanks!

http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/high-elves/145000-high-elves-ulthuan-he-tactica.html

Cheers!

Dragon Prince of Caledor
12-11-2008, 19:29
What do you people think of Core-heavy armies? I recently acquired a large amount of elven spearmen and archers and plan on fielding an infantry-heavy army, mainly relying on core units and less-used special choices.

Would an army with lots of spearelves forming a solid battle-line work well?

I'm thinking something like:

HEROES
Archmage, lvl3, Jewel of Dusk, 2xDispel Scroll, Ring of Fury

CORE
20 Spearelves, FC
20 Spearelves, FC
20 Spearelves, FC
20 Lothern Seaguard, shield, FC
10 Archers
10 Archers

SPECIAL
5 Silver Helms, shield
5 Silver Helms, shield
5 Shadow Warriors
5 Shadow Warriors
Tiranoc Chariot
Tiranoc Chariot

RARE
Repeater Bolt Thrower
Repeater Bolt Thrower
Great Eagle
Great Eagle

For an approximate total of 2250 points.

I was really impressed by how large a force one can field foregoing the more expensive special choices! Bearing in mind that this is a try at a balanced force, how do you think it will fare?

Has anyone tried using lots of core troops with the latest High Elf Book?

P.S. on the Shadow Warriors question, I'd never use them in units greater than 7, as they are too vulnerable to invest a large amount of points in them. A unit of 5 can take out warmachines with ease, march-block and shoot lone characters quite reliably.

The lord is a complete waste because with his 6 power dice and bound spell all the good spells are going to be dispelled pronto. I think you should make him a mega scroll caddie if that be your wish. I have always wanted to play a core army game but i have painting spearmen. Silver helms..where to start ;) They arent pretty nor are they Dragon Princes of Caledor :) I only use mine because they are painted and having multiple cavalry units is a good time. Good luck with it!

isidril93
12-11-2008, 20:09
hmmmm...what do you guess prefer msu or big chunky units (dont count cavalry). i personally prefer large units, each one able to hold iself...with elites of 15-20

Desert Rain
12-11-2008, 21:18
I prefer larger units, not counting cavalry, SW or swordmasters I woul never take units of below 15 models. 20 to 25 is my ideal size.

Some comments for various units regarding unit size:

Swordmasters I belive should be taken in rather small units, even an unit of 7 can dich out a lot of damage. Since the SM are rather vulnurable to shooting I think that if you field then in low numbers your opponent might fire at something else becaus killing of that little SM unit doesn't make a bid difference.

White Lions should in my opinion be taken in units of about 15 models. they are much more durable than the SM to shooting plus that they will not make as many kills so they need some static combat resolution.

Phoenix Guard should be taken in units of around 20. The main reason for this is fear, if you manage to outnumber the enemy they will flee automatically if you win. Also consider that small units will flee from them if they fail their fear tests while getting charged. Another reason for a big block of the PG is their durability, with a 4+ ward save it's going to be hard to deal with so many of them. They also got a LD of 9 which make the the most reliable HE infantry choice. A lagre unit will give you a good static combat resolution that can compensate their lack of kills

Spearmen should in my opinion be in units of 18-25 models for maximum static combat resolution and maximum attacks.

Archers should be in units om 10-12 models without any upgrdes.

I think the LSG works better in rather small units of about 12-15 models. They start the game by hanging back shooting at the enemy. Then in the later turns they move forward to join the action.

Cavaly should be in units of 5-7 models, any more will just be points wasted on attacks that won't reach the enemy. If you face a shooty army you might want some more to compensate for more casulties before reaching the fray.



This post got a bit longer than I intendet it to be, everything was just written down as I thought of it but I hope that it might be a little bit useful.

/ Desert Rain

Dragon Prince of Caledor
13-11-2008, 15:25
That makes sense but pg are really expensive especially since i deck them out with goodies. A unit of 20 would be like 350 pts... For all the other units I agree though. BUt my spearmen are still in a unit of 15 mainly because i cant bring myself to paint any more. 25 for an elite army unit is heavy IMO but that is one "man's" opinion. I love unleashing 7 wide unit of of SM into rank and file its delectible! Does anyone ever put characters in swordmaster units?

Desert Rain
13-11-2008, 17:59
Shure a unit of 20 PG costs about 350 pts but they are so much more durable comapared to the other elite infantry so I think it's a "safe investment".

/Desert Rain

Countsprattcula
13-11-2008, 21:47
What do you guys personally think is the best out of White Lions, Sword Masters and Phonix Guard. Genrally for a all-takers list i think that PG are the best due to their unchallanged reliability. However in a rush of thinking SMs are awsome i went out and bought rather alot (it did'nt help they were on sale) so i have around 30 SMs and well i've only ever really used them in a unit of 7. Which seems to me to be a hell of a waste of models, do you guys suceed with large units of SMs (it dos'nt help my main opponents are wood elves and orks and goblins the orks and gobbos have atillary)

just some thoughts. Also personally i would'nt put a charcter in a unit of SMs i think the wisest place for charcters are in spearmen units or phonix guard (fighting charcters).

On topic of infantry-heavy lists i'd never do it i have bought too many elites and also i think elite models look awsome. However i think the list would work especially with that amount of men but i think higher toughnesses will give you a run for your money (BOLT THROWER THEM)

Just my thoughts, CS

Vase
13-11-2008, 23:56
What do you guys personally think is the best out of White Lions, Sword Masters and Phonix Guard. Genrally for a all-takers list i think that PG are the best due to their unchallanged reliability.

Well, if you're asking which is best if you can only have one, then it's a really tough question. I think the answer has to do with the overall strategy you build your army around. For an all-comers list though, I would probably lean toward WL. Yes, the PG are reliable and hard as nails, but they are also pretty weak when attacking. The WL are also hard to beat but they have higher Strength and can inflict more damage. Put them on the field with the Lion Banner and you have a pretty nasty unit that can dish out the hurt as well as take it in. Not to mention, being able to navigate woods gives them a great maneuver advantage over lots of enemies.

But PG and SM are also extremely useful. In my most recent game against VC, my SM unit of 7 killed a unit of 20 Skeletons in one round of combat (thank you crumble ;) ) without taking a single casualty...which my PG would never have been able to do.

It just depends on how you use them and what you're army is trying to do as a whole. If you already have the SM, I would just build the army around them and not worry about the other units.

Elves All The Way
14-11-2008, 07:18
i know it's is all down to your fighting style as many has said but i always field a unit of sm, they may not be as resiliant as pg or as reliable as wl but they pack an awsome punch. i usually put a hero in it with sacred insense and then shooting at them becomes very difficut with the average bs of 3 in most armies they'd need a 6 to hit at long range + you could add a banner of arcane protection.

Countsprattcula
14-11-2008, 22:51
One other way to protect a unit of SMs and also units around them is the howlar wind spell from the lore of life, obiously like all spells can be dispelled but if shooting is a problem for you (i know it is for me) then the spell can be effective obiosusly to garentee getting this you will need to use the seerstaff.

CS

WhiteKnight
15-11-2008, 00:09
For elite infantry, I usually run towards white lions. They are durable and are crazy good in combat. They, IMO, are the bane of all average heavy cavalry. Swordmasters are the infantry killers. Have a unit of 7 swordmasters go toe-to-toe with the average infantry unit and you'll see lots of casualties on the enemies part. Phoenix Guard are the best mage protectors EVER. That 4+ ward protects them so well and if you cast a good protecting spell on them or even the loremaster's cloak, you'll laugh as the magic heavy armies of warhammer attempt to kill the phoenix guard with magic.

invinciblebug
22-11-2008, 11:16
I prefer a mix of the elite infantry, the white lions are very good at taking charges, with stubborn, lion standard and a BSB nearby their not going anywhere in a hurry. They can then be reinforced by a charge from a chariot/unit of dragon princes/dragon lord.

The swords masters are infantry killers without equal, just don't let the enemy shoot them, cause they die really easily. Once they get into combat it wont be a problem, cause with 15 str 5 ASF attacks to the front, there usually isn't anything left to strike back.

The phoenix guard are the perfect bodyguard for mages, and they can provide a decent anvil if needed to. Just make sure the mage leaves the unit if they are about to get charged by anything tougher than clanrats.

I wonder how you equip you leaders. I usually go with star lance, vambraces of defence and armour of caledor for princes on dragons. On BSBs I want just defensive stuff, dragon armour, hand weapon and shield/enchanted shield is what I usually take. A Noble with a simple GW and dragon armour (and maybe some odd ward save), is useful for boosting the combat ability for your units.

What do you think of the golden crown of atrazar and the dragon horn? and what would yo say is good equipment for a prince on foot, if you want him better than just GW+armour?

Elves All The Way
23-11-2008, 09:10
i know a lot of people might disagree but i think usuing the star lance is stupid, it only has effect on the turn you charge, y dont you use the white sword so ur prince is str6 all the time and at str6 your enemy doesn't get much of a armour save anyway plus it's killing blow,
And invinciblebug prince on dragon loadout is over 100pts in magic items, ditch the armour of caledor, just with normal heavey armour n shield u got a good armour save (just wondering do you get the barding +1 armour save modifier if your on a dragon?) and stik with vambraces of defence if you want, my loadout is usually
Great wep
heavy armour (i would take dragon armour but i usually dont vs a team with flaming attks)
shield
Star dragon
Helm of fortune
Guardian Pheonix
Ring of fury
Maybe a bow
As for prince on foot i do use armour of caledor white sword n guardian pheonix, it also depend how ur deploying him, in a unit of SM 4 example I might add sacred incense.

Also does anyone use the healing potion? i havnt tried that 1 out yet

cicero
24-11-2008, 13:13
well i think the star lance the ToL on a star dragon its the perfect character hunter.str7 no armour saves? it is a bargain for any mounted prince/noble . in the first turn they can kill anyone who needs killing (nobles etc ) the instead of guardian phoenix and armour of caledor try full armour and shield and vambraces of def? then you have a 3+armour save rerolls to and 4+ ward save.
i have often wondered how giving a prince the BoLG and an extra hand weapon would work out ?has anyone tried it ?
what is people's mage build against vc? i was thinking the crystal, sigil and a pair of scrolls for my game next week. but as i've not played vc in years i was hioping a more experienced hand could advise me thanks

winkypinky
24-11-2008, 13:51
I have played the following list in pick-up games lately at the local club.
It have performed very well and with a little bit of luck it can take on almost anything.
So I wanted to share it with everyone interested. It is a nice balanced list with a little bit of each. And it sort negates the big weakness that infantry bring to battle (having flanks) by taking almost all stubborn infantry.

Korhil.
Noble: Heavy armour, shield, barded steed, lance, bsb, radiant gem of hoeth.
Mage: lvl 2, 2 dispel scrolls, barded steed.

17 Spearmen: Full command.
10 Archers.

5 Dragon Princes.
5 Ellyrian reavers: Bows, musician.
13 swordmasters: Musician.
15 white lions: Full command, warbanner, skeinsliver.
1 Tiranoc chariot.

3 Repeater bolt throwers.
1 Great eagle.

(a 2k list)

The bsb goes with the lions in a 6 man wide front an korhil goes in the spearelfs who will also be in a 6 man wide formation. The swordmasters goes in a 7 man wide front. (or 8 if the enemy have 25mm bases as standard instead of 20mm)

The games I play I always give away around 500 vp's in the swordmasters, dragon princes, chariot and maybe a RBT, who all have huge bullseyes on them when you look at them from the other side of the table. Luckily the units are very cheap (for elves at least) And they have to be dealt with because of the large punch they pack, leaving the rest of the army more or less intact and free to move around without to much pressure on them.
The magic phase is more or less just me trying to cast drain magic twice each turn, almost always in vain. But it is nice when it gets through once in a while.

sroblin
25-11-2008, 12:50
I run a very similar balanced list, although I have a unit of 15 Sea Guard and a small unit of Shadow Warriors instead of the extra bolt throwers, and I like to take a second level 2 mage instead of Korhil. I enjoy the dual-utility of the Sea Guard, although I've realized they lend the list a more defensive bent, even with the Dragon Princes, White Lions, and Swordmasters included, and I think I need at least two bolt throwers if I'm going to cause enough attrition in the enemy ranks. I realize playing medium magic is also considered to be of somewhat dubious utility, but I think you can still get a good offensive output when combining double the magic items (and possible lores) for about the same price as a fully equipped archmage. I've never really been into the Ellyrian Reavers since they lost the interesting rules they had in 5th edition, but I can see they would be a logical addition to a more offensive army strategy.

Regarding spearmen, a unit of 15 is really the smallest viable size, but an effective unit of spearmen should run at least 18 or 21 for the maximum number of attacks. Spearmen are expensive because they are very effective at slaughtering weak core infantry or unarmored elites; unfortunately, their performance is unimpressive against anything with a combination of high armor and toughness. Using Spearmen effectively is about ensuring they fight the sort of enemies they are optimal against so that they kill a large enough number to limit attacks coming back, for example 18x versus halberdiers=5 wounds, Orc Boyz=2-3 wounds, Skaven warriors-3 wounds). Note that you usually want to be the one that's charged. I think specialist horde-killing is as useful a role as any for infantry and makes Spearmen worthwhile, although its too bad the unit performs so poorly for its price when matched versus less fragile enemies.

Altogether, though, I prefer balanced army lists because you can definitely take the full variety of interesting elf units, each of which gives you its own tactical tools for use against the enemy. I think diverse armies are less capable of 'over-whelming' an enemy the way all-defense or all-offense based lists do, but they are more effective at countering the enemies ploys by having the right unit for the right job. This means they are slightly more defense oriented IMO, so far as unit deployment is more likely to be based around reacting to the enemies setup by placing a good counter-unit, rather than dictating the flow of the battle by concentrating power, though of course a good balanced list can do decently in offense as well. There is a vulnerability against more extreme lists, because while you may always have a few of the right units for any particular job (shooting, anti-cav, anti-horde, characters for anti-magic etc.) , an all-cav/horde infantry/super-magic list etc. may simply overwhelm the effective counter-units, and leave the rest of the army less than useful. I think this is why balanced armies are not considered 'optimal' in tournament play, but I prefer versatility and getting to use a wide-range of units over pure winning power, and the High Elf list definitely facilitates balanced lists through its wide spread of viable unit options.

Desert Rain
28-11-2008, 11:49
I've been thinking a bit about putting an archmage on a great eagle for protection and excellent maneuverability. What are your thoughts about that? Is it a viable option?
I've been considering a Moon Dragon as well, is that any good or is it just a points sink extraordinare?

Elves All The Way
29-11-2008, 03:49
putting an archmage on a great eagle is way too big of a target if you want i guess moon dragon would be good but i would spend a few extra point for a prince on star dragon, the star dragon is just way to tempting.

Desert Rain
29-11-2008, 04:15
Yeah I know, but I want a heavy magic phase and a dragon so the star dragon is out.

Elves All The Way
29-11-2008, 04:25
well in that case stik with moon dragon, it's still a scary foe. great eagle as i said before is too weak it'll only take a bolt thrower to take him down

Desert Rain
29-11-2008, 04:35
But the eagle isn't a large target so it can hide behind terrain and troops, which the dragon can't. On the other hand the dragon is awsome, but a bit to expensive.

WhiteKnight
29-11-2008, 08:19
If you don't wan the amazingness of the Star Dragon like me and many other High Elf players, use a griffon. IIR that Archmages can ride Griffons. I'm not completely sure since my codex is not with me. But it doesn't waste a hero choice and its still a terror causing, feather-winged, half-lion beast.

Desert Rain
29-11-2008, 08:49
Nope, archmages can't ride griffons. Just horses, dragons, eagles and chariots. A griffon mounted archmage would certainally cool.

WhiteKnight
29-11-2008, 23:46
Yeah it would. Archmage on dragon is too expensive, and makes a weak character a big target. Dragon Mages are there for a reason. I prefer archmages on foot or on barded elven steed for my cavalry/chariot list.

happy_doctor
12-12-2008, 14:18
Hello, Nobles of Warseer!

I have a couple of new topics for you to discuss and give insight on:

1)THE NULLSTONE

I've been thinking of ways to make this particular enchanted item worth it. At first sight, I'd say it's like a more reliable version of the Ring of Hotek but with limited range. However, the points cost means that your general will be naked and wielding a pointy stick all battle-long.

How would you make it work?

2)THE GRIFFON

Being a warhammer old-timer, I am very fond of this creature; back in the day, you could field a couple of them as lone monsters and they would perform really well!
So, do you find there is a place for it in the HE army list, what with the presence of 3 different kinds of dragons?
Its most obvious drawbacks are the complete lack of armour save, lower stats and a US of 4, meaning that if your prince bites the dust, then the lone monster has no rank-breaking capability. On the other hand, it's cheaper and leaves a hero slot open for other characters, as opposed to the dragon.

The way I see it, it's a matter of protecting it from missile fire for the first couple of turns (until your eagles can make short work of the war machines) and picking your fights. Come to think about it, the same thing applies to the dragon as well! Is the difference in stats really significant, or does the poor Griffon suffer from marketing policies? (ie. "shiny new dragon model")


In order to put my money where my mouth is, I came up with the following Chrace themed list, trying to combine the two choices under discussion. I chose chrace as I feel that the Griffons' background ties them to the mountains of Chrace just like the Dragons to Caledor or Archmages to Hoeth.

Chrace army list - 2250 points

HEROES:
Prince, Griffon, Nullstone, Dragon Armour (not exactly fluffy, I know!), shield, Great Axe
Noble, BSB, Dragon Armour, shield, Great Axe, Banner of the World Dragon

CORE:
20 Spearmen, Full Command
20 Spearmen, Full Command
10 Archers

SPECIAL:
14 White Lions, Full Command, Lion Standard, Amulet of Light
14 White Lions, Full Command, Standard of Balance, Skeinsliver
Lion Chariot
Lion Chariot

RARE:
Repeater Bolt Thrower
Great Eagle
Great Eagle

Total: 2250 points

When designing the list, I imposed some limitations upon myself: No mages, no special units apart from the chrace ones and in general a combat-oriented army.

Magic defence: Against magic-heavy enemies, I had to find a way to counter the enemy magic phase until the griffon lord could reach them. Given the griffon's fragility, it has to approach the enemy moving behind cover and thus the Nullstone won't be in effect for the first two turns or so.
The answer to this problem is a screen (spearmen or white lions, depends) with the World Dragon Standard , rendering them completely immune to magic and hopefully protecting against magic missiles.
From turn 3 and on, the main bulk of my forces will be in combat, and the Nullstone's effect will have come into play.

The prince: In my humble opinion, this lad is a perfect character hunter. Thanks to the nullstone, the enemy will only have their mundane save (2+ at its best) to counter 8 S5 attacks from the griffon and rider. Vampire Lords, Dark Elf Highborns and Dwarf Lords are all perfect targets for this tactic. What's more, the Nullstone will cancel all banner effects (ranging from War Banner to any stubborn-standard and the such). An exception to this would be daemonic gifts, but that's a different issue.

White Lions: These are the heart of the army, a couple of stubborn, immune to psychology, resilient, high-strength units. The champion's skeinsliver is essential to this army, as taking the first turn means one less round of shooting/magic before I can get to grips with the enemy.

I like this build so much, that I think I'm actually going to buy the extra models needed to field it!

What do you guys think about this one? Would it work? Would it be fun to play against? Any obvious mistakes? Maybe a hint or two to spare?

Marwynn
12-12-2008, 15:15
Seems like a nice list. Yeah it'll suffer against the Magic heavy lists you'll see thrown around these days.

One suggestion would be to drop the Archers for a 2nd RBT. Is the BSB Mounted?

Your Prince could make do with a Halberd, same +1S.

I have doubts as to what the BoWD would actually accomplish with that many blocks of infantry. He'd merely stop targetting the one where your BSB is in.

The Prince seems like an all-or-nothing guy, something to like in these times.

happy_doctor
12-12-2008, 15:45
Thanks for the swift reply, Marwynn!

-The plan for magic defense is to form a screen in front of my other blocks with a single unit deployed 1-deep. They will screen the advance for a couple of turns, being completely immune to magic missiles. Diagram follows:

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWB

SSSSS CH SSSSS CH
SSSSS CH SSSSS CH
SSSSS CH SSSSS CH
SSSSS___SSSSS

Or something along these lines... Do you think it would work, or is it a complete waste of resources? What I like is that, unlike most screens, this one can charge headlong into the enemy and beat them in combat. If they are charged by multiple foes, all the better; more attacks, more wounds and thus a better chance of winning the combat!

-The BSB isn't mounted, as it just doesn't fit the background to have him mounted on a horse... I'll have to be extra careful with him! By deploying him as shown on the diagram, hopefully I can ensure he doesn't get to see combat unless I want to.

-If I swap the archers, then I have an extra 10 points to play with. Any ideas? Perhaps I could instead make them Lothern seaguard? (I can trim points by making the Great Axe a Halberd and swapping the Dragon Armours for Heavy armour)

-Cheers on the heads up for the Prince, I think it is an out-of-the-box build and would be delighted if I could make him work!

Marwynn
12-12-2008, 18:03
Oh I've tried that line, but with 20 PG. 4+ Ward against everything the Banner doesn't stop, quite cool and the Fear can sometimes hold off those chargers. And yes they don't have to do it for long, just long enough to get your Griffon Prince close to their magic users.

Just remember shooting will still be a problem, even with the +2 from the WLs.

Give it a try, it'll work wonderfully against heavy offensive casting armies. It could fall on its face or the Banner be useless at least against say the VCs who use most of their casting to raise and buff. But then again you'd be able to deal with them with the Prince.

Your biggest danger would be an army with decent shooting and magic and who may not be completely focused on using magic to kill you and uses shooting to whittle you down. Meaning "balanced" armies of the High Elves and Empire.

Watch out for that BSB to not get skewered by a Bolt Thrower or a Cannonball.

Lord of Nonsensical Crap
12-12-2008, 18:57
An interesting choice of tactics, Doctor. A question, though: if 1 WL unit will be acting as the screen, where will the other unit go?

In regards to magical defence, only thing I can suggest is scroll caddies. But then HE. Miners and Tomb Scorpions, as usual, will ruin your day, and you will need a really good counter against any Dragons/Greater Daemons/etc that decide to fly behind your screen.

WhiteKnight
13-12-2008, 01:27
If you don't want dragons or big scary things in your way, two bolt throwers and lots of magic will do. You won't always fight those big scary things but you can expect them in tournament scenes.

Shas'o Tekomador
21-12-2008, 03:46
Here's an combo that will tear a Vamp list to shreds,
Prince
Star Dragon
Lance
Longbow
Helm of Fortune
Radient Gem of Hoeth
Seerstaff (He's a wiziard)
get flaming sword +
2 white lion chariots +
ethereal mage with light lvl 2
+ at least one DOW cannon with a bolt thrower
= dead Vampires
flaming sword vs helm of commandment + flaming sword

John Wayne II
27-12-2008, 00:33
I got the book this week, so I'm new to all this. No models as of yet, I like figuring out what army I want to play with before going out and buying it. Plus, High Elves FTW!!!


Here's an combo that will tear a Vamp list to shreds,
Prince
Star Dragon
Lance
Longbow
Helm of Fortune
Radient Gem of Hoeth
Seerstaff (He's a wiziard)
get flaming sword +
2 white lion chariots +
ethereal mage with light lvl 2
+ at least one DOW cannon with a bolt thrower
= dead Vampires
flaming sword vs helm of commandment + flaming sword

Hmm, I was thinking about the whole Prince with Gem of Hoeth, except mine looks slightly different:

Prince
Dragon Armour
Great Weapon
Radiant Gem of Hoeth
Jewel of the Dusk
????????

I would run him on foot, supporting the main thrust (Ooer matron!) of the army. I think putting him on a monster, whether that be an Eagle, a Griffon or a Dragon makes him a fire magnet, and he's pretty vulnerabe as he is. Plus, 60 points spent on my magical set up doesn't leave him with an awful lot of point to spen on things like protection.

Thoughts?

Chicago Slim
27-12-2008, 01:48
I've been playing with many small units of infantry-- mostly White Lions, in units of 6 or 8; since I own 32 of them, I'll often bring 4 units of 8 white lions, with champions and musicians (not perfectly modeled, but my friends are good about allowing a bit of fudging on that level of WYSIWYG).

I've found that it gives a LOT of versatility, having that many units of stubborn, S6 fighters lurking around the edges of the battle... Anybody doing the same with Swordmasters? Or even Phoenix Guard?

John Wayne II
27-12-2008, 21:44
I've found that it gives a LOT of versatility, having that many units of stubborn, S6 fighters lurking around the edges of the battle... Anybody doing the same with Swordmasters? Or even Phoenix Guard?

Its a good tactic for Swordmasters and White Lions. The former because they rely on kills rather than static CR to win combats, and the latter because they're stubborn and can afford to lose combat if things don't go their way. It's a pretty pointless tactic for Phoenix Guard IMHO because they are not very killy and in small blocks they won't generate much CR. Sure, they are hard to kill but you don't need to kill them to beat them in combat; just outnumber (which should be easy), weather their feeble attacks and run them down when they lose combat to your abundant static CR.

John Wayne II
28-12-2008, 14:40
I just wanted to ask: does anyone use a lot of Spearmen? I love the concept behind them, but any time I try to include 50+ Spears into a normal 2000 point list I find myself running out of points for other stuff after I have put them in and the obligatory 2 Reapers/2 Eagles combo (oh, and characters of course). Also, what's the ideal unit size for them?

Thoughts?

selone
29-12-2008, 03:03
I like spearmen a lot but not everyone does, alas. Theres a few unit sizes people like - 15 is the 'bare minimum' for using their 3 ranks fight rule with minimum frontage, some also add another 5 for their full rank bonus or even another 5 to absorb shooting. A unit of 18 gives you the 3 ranks but with a wider frontage to get more attacks in and a unit of 24 has the 'full' CR and basically says avoid this unit to your opponent. It's threat, or what it says to your opponent is probably more so than its effectiveness. 24 S3 attacks generally has a worse bark than its bite.

Anyways there is no ideal size, for a cheap points effectiveness unit go for 15, but for a unit to be reckoned with 24 is good imo. I'm sure others will have their favourite unit sizes but those are mine.

Havock
29-12-2008, 03:31
depends on what the S3 attacks are aimed at; it basically says to your opponent that he has to dedicate one of his hard-hitters to rip it apart; against most standard infantry they'll manage quite well; say, Marauders with HW/shield.

12 hits, six wounds, 3 saves. 4 attacks back, two hits, two wounds, you save one. It gets better when he only has a 5+ save or so. It's what spearmen do; fight things less scary than they are.

Elves All The Way
30-12-2008, 04:00
i love spearmen, every game they've never let me down, as for the unit size i aggree with selone, 24 IMO is the ideal size and it fits perfectly with how many spearmen your provided with, buy three boxes of them and you have 48 spearmen and whats 48 devided by two? 24! and tere you have two unit of deadly spearmen ready for battle. as said before again by selone 15 is the minimum but i recon 20 is a solid number, but once again if you have points to spare kick the unit size to 24. alternitivly you can use 21 of them to protect archers and bolt throwers

nwo
30-12-2008, 16:33
Teclis - 475 pts

Mage lvl2 - 135 pts

Mage lvl2 - 135 pts

Mage lvl2 - 135 pts


15 Spearmen / Champ - 145 pts

15 Spearmen / Champ - 145 pts



10 Phoenix Guard / Banner Of Sorcery - 212 pts

10 Swordmasters / Champ - 162 pts

10 Swordmasters / Champ - 162 pts



Bolt T. - 100 Pts

Bolt T. - 100 Pts

Bolt T. - 100 Pts




Total: 2006 pts *i remove a champ if somebody complains about the 6 extra pts wich never happend till now



I used to finish in 9th / 10th in my local club tournys, since i started using this unbalanced list i finish in 2th / 3th most of times :D


Minimum PD per turn 14, max. 18


I simply stand back and destroy fast moving things like cavalry and flyers first and then the rest.

Red_Lep
30-12-2008, 17:02
I'm trying to make a 2250 point list since every list smaller than that leaves me wanting more. All I have so far is this:

Heroes- 597

Archmage- 410
~Bow of the Seafarer
~Sacred Incense
~Silver Wand
~Great Eagle
~Level 4

Noble- 187
~Reaver Bow
~Lance
~Dragon Armor
~Shield
~Great Eagle
.................................................. .........................................
Core- 260

2x Lothern Sea Guard(10)- 130
~Shields
.................................................. .........................................
Special-
.................................................. .........................................
Rare- 300

2x Repeater Bolt Thrower- 100

2x Great Eagle- 50
.................................................. .........................................
Total- 1157

This is what I'm asking advice for:

1. I'm wanting to have a decent magic phase so I need another magic user, should I go with a LV2 or a RGoH Noble?
2. I like Phoenix Guard and White Lions so thats what I'm wanting to be my Specials but I'm stuck on unit sizes and uses. And which should I put the Banner of Sorcery in?
3. Should I swap my LSG for Spearmen to go support my Specials? My worry is that would leave my RBTs vulnerable.

cicero
30-12-2008, 18:26
toll your mage up for casting the bow is nice but on a lord he's cheaper and more accurate

WhiteKnight
03-01-2009, 17:02
Speaking of spearmen, I played a game last week. My high elves against skaven in 1500. I set up a solid defensive line and had my spearmen on the left guard with my white lions and swordmasters on the center guard and archers and bolt thrower on the left guard. When combat started in like 3rd turn, my spearmen were double charged by 2 units of clanrats. A unit of 21 spearmen held them and stood there for the whole game, even after they got flanked. They are amazing at 21+. Never leave the battlefield without these guys!

Desert Rain
04-01-2009, 11:32
I agree, spears kick ass against most opponents. Enemies eith high T and AS are problematic though. I plan to use 2 x 20 in my 2000 pts list.

A quick question: Do you think that 2 x 10 archers is a waste of points If you already have 2 RBT?

WhiteKnight
04-01-2009, 19:04
2x10 archers is only good in a Star Dragon tourny list or you want minimal core. Never go more than 3 core choices in 2k. High T opponents with a high AS is very uncommon, except in characters. Or blood knights that charge and get the Dance casted on them. Here's my analysis of all of the high elf Core, Special, and Rare choices.

Spearmen -
Great core choice. ASF, fight in three ranks is a good combo. These guys can hold up lines of infantry with ease. ALWAYS INCLUDE these guys in your army at any points value. There only downfall is there low S, T, and AS.

Archers -
Longbows with BS 4. Very nice. They'll handle low T units with ease. Or they can spam arrows on a giant. Best in units of 10. 2 units of these will land you a cheap core and the ability to utilize the 6 special choices at full effect! And of course, they are low S, T , and AS.

Sea Guard -
Same stuff as spearmen, but with a bow and more expensive. They're worth it if you want more shooting with some backup from spears. Good mage bunkers!

Phoenix Guard -
GREAT mage bunkers. 4+ ward and Fear is great and at ld 9, you'll laugh at the vampires pitiful attempt to break them! Give them Standard of Balance and you'll be owning! Best in units of 15-20.

White Lions -
Stubborn and 3+ against magic missiles and shooting is GREAT! And with S6, you'll be killing cavalry all day! Good luck holding in combat!

Swordmasters -
This is the ultimate infantry killer! 2 attacks base and at W6 S5, no infantry will be able to handle it, except Warriors of Chaos...But anyways! They may be low armoured but with some protection spells like Celestial shield, they'll be in combat before you know it!

Dragon Princes -
Do I have to say how good these guys are? 2 attacks base at WS 5 S 5 on the charge! And a 2+ armor save that is immune to flaming attacks is the amazing cavalry unit of high elves!

Silver Helms -
Ever since they became special choices, they have become meh. They are just underpowered Dps with 40 points for command and without the ability to take a magic banner. They're better than other knights of WHFB though! Remember, they still have ASF!

Reavers -
Best fast cav that I've seen. 18" movement, ASF if charged, and with BS 4, they are a good sight to see when march blocking hordes!

The Chariots -
Lion Chariot - Beastly. 4 str 5 WS 5 attacks followed by 2 WS 5 STR 6 atks are great! And pile that on with Impact hits and you have a beastly chariot that can break infantry with good rolls! Good in pairs as well as tagging along with some DPs.

Tiranoc Chariot - Fast and with longbows means more march blocking and with shooting capability. Works well in pairs!

Shadow Warriors -
Only scouts that high elves can have. Not well armed but they do have hatred.

Great Eagle - Amazing. March blocking and lone mage and cannon crew killing all wrapped up in 50 points!

RBTs - Amazing. With no penalty of rapid fire and S4 -2 to armor is great against infantry! And S6 no armor single shot is great against cavalry and giants!

Elves All The Way
08-01-2009, 05:54
two quick questions wat should i buy:
15 WL w/c and the hero woodsman guy
or
5 DP
or
5 ER
i don't have any of those units yet and i think my budget might only be able 2 afford one of them so which one should it be?

Also should i buy
Tyrion Or Eltharion?, i got a lord on star dragon already so is Eltharion a good choice?

sroblin
08-01-2009, 12:18
two quick questions wat should i buy:
15 WL w/c and the hero woodsman guy
or
5 DP
or
5 ER
i don't have any of those units yet and i think my budget might only be able 2 afford one of them so which one should it be?


Well, the answer technically depends on your army list and which units synergize better with it, but IMO Dragon Princes and White Lions are both vastly more interesting units. Ellyrian Reavers are generic fast cavalry; certainly useful in many situations, but not particularly impressive at any one task and most effective when performing flank charges and march interdiction. Dragon Princes and White Lions, by contrast, can really demolish things in their path and are fairly resilient. Than again, you may find you need the support unit more in your list than a blockbuster.

Elves All The Way
09-01-2009, 03:24
well so far in my HE army i have
48Spearmen
32 Archers
2 Bolt Throwers
15 SM and PG
1 Lion Chariot
16 SH
10 SW
2 mages (foot and mounted)
I noble mounted
1 star dragon
teclis althit anar and the pheonix guard champion guy

changer of fate
09-01-2009, 09:15
love the always strike first rule, you dont need the charge to kill people, and think about three ranks of spear man always strike first.......hehehehe........:evilgrin:

isidril93
09-01-2009, 19:35
may i suggest my tactica? can anyone give any hints on what i missed till now

Elves All The Way
10-01-2009, 03:40
after a bit of thininking i was wondering what would be better to have?
5 Dragon princes with BSB and the battle banner, basiclly the tatic here is just to flank a low leadership unit, or a small unit without many ranks and try to win combat, the dragon princes with the bsb would kill more, flank, have the standard and battle standard, thats a total of 4 points of CR
while hopefully the enemy will just outnumber, standard, have 3 extra ranks thats 5 points of CR
making the dragon princes lose combat by one, but with the BB giving you d6 CR say you roll a 4 you win combat by 3 and against a leadership of 7 or so the opponent will hopefully break while you pursue on horse
or
Simply white lions and Korhil and just simply kill them with 9str6 attcks that strike first?

Elves All The Way
10-01-2009, 06:03
also isidrill about ur tatics ( i didn't know whether i should post it there or not) when you said don't make a gunline with the archers, i strongly disagree, with simply 32 archers on a hill or in a straight line, if you cast curse of arrow attraction on any unit, the archers will deffinatly do a lot of damage, and might even wipe out units, with longbows and BS4 they're very good, just add in as many bolt throwers as you can, a few shadow warriors, reavers, SM (to protect the archers) and some SH or DP to run down the rest it can be a deadly force. for example
Lords
Archmage -410
Book Of Heoth
Tiranoc Chariot

Heros
Lv2 Mage -175
Anulian Crystal
Lv 2 Mage -165
Seer Staff Of Saphery
Noble -157
Starlance, Talisman Of Loec
Barded Elven Steed, Heavy armor, Sheild,

Core
16 Archers -176
16 Archers -176

Special
7 Sword Masters -105
7 Sword Masters -105
5 Shadow Warriors -90
5 Shadow Warriors -90
5 Elyrion Reavers -95
swap spear for Bow
5 Dragon Princes w/c -200

Rare
Bolt Thrower -100
Bolt Thrower -100
Great Eagle -50
Great Eagle -50

Total 2244pts
Deployment
Simply, keep archers, bolt throwers, mages back (Hopefully on a hill)
Put Sword masters in front of archers, if theres no hill put them next to them. their role is to protect the archers, whoever wants to charge into 14 WS6 Str5 attacks be my guest:P

Shadow Warriors, reavers and mage on chariot on the side ready to harass the enemy, (reavers go for warmachines if there are any)

go forward ready to Eagles disrupt marching

Dragon Princes stay back near the archers in reserve as re-inforcements (noble is in this unit)

AAAAAAAA AAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAA BT BT AAAAAAAA
DP SM SM
ER GE GE ER
SW SW
I know this looks all artistic and symetrical but it should work given that ur archers are on a hill

Tatics
ok first of all set your priorities, if there's cannons or anything get the reavers to take em out so you'll be doing most of the shooting, then see what units you want to take out first, (if you use curse of arrow attraction and concentrate all your fire you can wipe out entire units first go even if they have high T and AS) Use bolt thrower for knights first and other fast thing then use them to support your archers by firing vollys,

Your archmage on the chariot can do all sorts of harm depending on which lore you choose, your other mages can get curse of arrow attarction off by themselves

use the eagles to stop the enemy from marching so you can get as many shots off as you can

if any enemy units do make to your gunline or if there's a few stragglers left behind use the dragon princes to wipe them out

And Basically Shadow Warrior just shoot at watever you want, try to keep em out of combat

The two mages always use high magic and get shield of saphery, the one with seerstaf choose curse of arrow attraction and obviously use shield of saphery to protect archers and others.

I hope this help people, i've used it a few times, thankfully my opponent let me say my SH were DP and reavers, and it worked but i dont use it often since my main opponemts are dwarves and wood elves :( with that said it's not the best list to take against certain amies
P.S go easy on the critism :$

isidril93
10-01-2009, 18:03
hmmm...intesesting. i would liked it to have been in the tacitca (since there are no replies yet :( ) but since it is so long its not worth retyping.


the tactic might wrok...actually probably will but i think the bulk of your kills wont come from the archers but the other units. probably the best army it is against is other gunlines as long bows have extra range. a cc army might be a combt especially if they are a horde (such as vc) although then the sw should take care of them woc or doc might be a bit tough if either a cavalry or warrior filled woc or a nurgle doc as those are VERY resisitant.

im going to take a bit out of your tactica hope u dont mind

Elves All The Way
11-01-2009, 08:57
i dont mid at all :P
anyway this thread is a bit dead :( so i thought i might as well bring up a new subject, what are peoples thoughts one special characters, first question,
Alith anar, what are your thoughts on him?, put him in a unit of shadow warriors and all of a sudden they become very deadly, against shooting they're almost invunerable, with the average BS3 at long range him and his shadow warriors cannot be touched by shooting and by the time they go up to short range Alith and his shadow warriors would of already shot them down.
Another + is with Aliths moonbow he's basically a moving bolt thrower, he can shoot down an entire rank from the side peircing through say 5 poeple, bye bye knights
And finally if he gets into CC and loses the opponemt must half his pursing roll

All in all he's a great character, the only down side is that he's a lord and is outshined by other characters like tyrion teclis or eltharion or simply a star dragon so i usually only take him in 3000+ games

Desert Rain
11-01-2009, 11:03
I like Alith Anars fluff and his rules with one exeption: His 6+ Armour Save. But allong with Caradryan he is the only special character from our list that I might use.