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Try Again Bragg
12-03-2008, 14:26
I assume that multilaser and lascannon sentinels don't carry additional ammunition (power cells) because they get energy from their engines.

What about autocannon and heavy flamer sentinels? How much ammo/promethium do they carry? Would it all be in one over-sized fuel tank or magazine or do you think that a sentinel pilot may have to occasionally change ammo belts or things like that from the cockpit?

I hope that makes sense. Thanks for the opinions. :cool:

Perfect Organism
12-03-2008, 15:02
It doesn't look like they are reloadable from inside the vehicle. I doubt that a light scout vehicle would generally carry large amounts of ammo as standard and there doesn't seem to be much room available for stowage. If they wanted to carry extra ammo I suspect they would have to lash it to the outside of the hull and climb out to load it.

Burnthem
12-03-2008, 15:29
A Sentinels weapons are there for self defence and covering its escape, its not designed for protracted firefights or main battle roles. Of course once your out of ammo you can always kick them to death ;)

Emperor's Grace
12-03-2008, 19:58
I imagine you'd fall back to "the ammo wagon" (support vehicle) and be reloaded by a machine made specifically to do so (or a tech adept with a lifter).

jfrazell
12-03-2008, 20:03
As an aside a sentinel may also be able to fold its legs such that it can be maintained from the ground.

Try Again Bragg
12-03-2008, 22:01
Okay, thanks for all of the opinions.

What do you think would be a reasonable number to set for the ammo capacity of an autocannon sentinel? 50, 100, 200, 500?

Thanks.

Iracundus
13-03-2008, 03:08
Salamander scout vehicles carry 500 autocannon rounds, but they have additional stowage space on board, so a Sentinel would likely have less than that. In particular, the Sentinel autocannon seems to use the same sort of round magazine as the infantry carried autocannons.

Salamander HQ vehicles carry heavy flamers, and they carry enough there for 10 shots. Again this might be less for a Sentinel if we assume those 10 shots for a Salamander include any additional tanks of flamer fuel in cargo space. All this above data is from Imperial Armor books.


Multilasers and lascannons in the Imperium do use power cells. The lascannons carried by the infantry have been mentioned as draining their entire power cell in one shot, necessitating frequent changes. Given how the Imperium uses a lot of interchangeable technology for ease of maintenance, I would assume the lasers on Sentinels also use power cells that require frequent changing.

Brother Siccarius
13-03-2008, 06:47
Multilasers and lascannons in the Imperium do use power cells. The lascannons carried by the infantry have been mentioned as draining their entire power cell in one shot, necessitating frequent changes. Given how the Imperium uses a lot of interchangeable technology for ease of maintenance, I would assume the lasers on Sentinels also use power cells that require frequent changing.

The upshot of which is that they're easily recharged. I seem to remember the munitorium manual mentioning recharge stations for las cells, which leads me to believe that it's possible to recharge it via some electrical device or hookup. It'd seem likely that the cells could be hooked in through the engine somehow, though I image it would be a terrible drain.

CELS
13-03-2008, 09:35
Ammo? Who needs ammo? Not Space Marines, and certainly not Sentinels :D

It's hard to estimate the ammo capacity of the Sentinel, because it uses a smaller calibre autocannon than the Salamander scout vehicle, and perhaps even smaller than that of the Baneblade (which has 300 rounds). If you look at the size of autocannon ammunition (in Imperial Armour), it looks like the bigger calibre weapons use 40mm or 50mm ammunition. If that's actually the case, then I guess the Sentinel could have a 30 mm autocannon with 50 rounds or so.

"Realistically", the Sentinel should have more ammunition than is shown on the model, in my opinion. But GW doesn't waste any tears over such things.

Burnthem
13-03-2008, 09:49
I'd even go as far as the Sentinel having a 25mm or 20mm or even a 15mm Autocannon, it just fits better IMO.

CELS
13-03-2008, 10:42
Given the very vague description of what exactly constitutes an autocannon, it's certainly possible. Judging by the size of the barrel though, it certainly doesn't look like 15 milimeters :)

Burnthem
13-03-2008, 10:57
Well GW does like its 'Hero Scale weapons'

Although i do like the vagueness of the Autocannon fluff, it lets you fit it into almost any role that you require, being little more than an 'Automatic Cannon'. Of course, this doesn't stop the almost weekly threads/arguments asking 'What calibre is an Autocannon?' *pulls hair out* ;)

Try Again Bragg
13-03-2008, 22:31
I think that I will treat the sentinel autocannon as a 30mm gun with a mediocre rate of fire.

Sai-Lauren
14-03-2008, 15:15
It's hard to estimate the ammo capacity of the Sentinel, because it uses a smaller calibre autocannon than the Salamander scout vehicle, and perhaps even smaller than that of the Baneblade (which has 300 rounds). If you look at the size of autocannon ammunition (in Imperial Armour), it looks like the bigger calibre weapons use 40mm or 50mm ammunition. If that's actually the case, then I guess the Sentinel could have a 30 mm autocannon with 50 rounds or so.

It's the same size as the guard infantry one isn't it? But yes, I'd say 50 rounds for an autocannon would be about right. Enough to last it until it can get clear of trouble.

IMO, the energy weapons will have a power pack that they can take power from in addition to a direct feed from the engine, which gets charged up when the Sentinel isn't in combat - otherwise there would be a distinct mobility shortfall in combat, or it would be disarmed if the engine is damaged (or worse, you could get a power feedback into the engine if the weapon is damaged).

Heavy bolters could have a belt of a couple of hundred rounds, whilst missile launchers could have up to 10 missiles in a magazine.


As an aside a sentinel may also be able to fold its legs such that it can be maintained from the ground.
Elysian ones can apparently fold up to fit in the belly of a Valkyrie. I'd say that normal ones can certainly get low enough to require little more than a step stool for the pilot to get in and out the door.

AlexCage
14-03-2008, 16:08
Personally I would think the powerplant on the Sentinel is WAAY too small to constantly power the Lascannon or recharge its powercells. And I can't for the life of me figure out where the fuel tanks are (I'm guessing in the body directly under the 'head') but they have got to be fairly small. I would hazard a guess to say it would be far too fuel intensive for the little scout.

However you can recharge a Las cell from any power source wthin the Imperium (and sometimes without), and it's perfectly reasonable that you could drain the vehicles batteries to get that emergency last shot...

If I had to guess I'd say your average Sentinel has 3 shots from the basic power pack (1 shot per 'cell'). Following the fluff, even Thunderbolts only have 3-5 shots at MOST with their cannons, and theirengines are vastly more powerful and they've got quite a bit bigger area for storage. A Sentinel surely isn't getting any more than that.

On my own Autocannon Sentinels I just strapped one of the Drums from the HW team to the side where the Multi-Laser power pack goes. Poor little guy still has to climb out there to reload, but it's better than kicking things to death.

Burnthem
14-03-2008, 18:32
Dont forget that just because a weapon is called a 'Lascannon' doesnt mean that it the same as another Lascannon. The Lascannons on a Thunderbolts for example i imagine would be more powerful than that on a Sentinel, hence the limited number of shots.

I dont know about you but i'd certainly think twice about going anywhere near combat with a main weapon system capable of only firing 3 shots! Sentinel Lascannons must be able to fire more shots, at the expense of power possibly, as 3 shots is just stupid.

Perfect Organism
14-03-2008, 19:22
I think that I will treat the sentinel autocannon as a 30mm gun with a mediocre rate of fire.
Incidentally, may I ask what you are planning to do with this? Are you converting the Sentinel to some other game system?

Try Again Bragg
14-03-2008, 23:46
Perhaps the sentinels' lascannons and multilasers do have power cells that they drain as they fire, but the cells are recharged over time by siphoning power from the engine. For example, maybe a pilot could get 10 lascannon shots before the cell is drained, but the enigine can recharge one shot per minute. So if the pilot rapid fires off his shots, he might be stuck for at least a minute unable to fire.

@Perfect Organism: I am asking for this fluff because I am writing a story about sentinel pilots and this stuff might come up.

legio mortis
15-03-2008, 00:16
The thing is, not every autocannon equipped Sentinal is going to use the same model of autocannons that are on the model, only the ones that come from Kantrael are going to have the same autocannons that are on the model.


Personally I would think the powerplant on the Following the fluff, even Thunderbolts only have 3-5 shots at MOST with their cannons, and theirengines are vastly more powerful and they've got quite a bit bigger area for storage.
Actually, if we follow Double Eagle, the Thunderbolt's lascannon ammo capacity is around thirty shots.

starlight
15-03-2008, 00:22
Do remember that an average game of 40K lasts for a very short time in *real life*. They only carry enough ammo for a single engagement (unless you model your minis as *veterans* ).

Sentinels are scouts, not battle vehicles. They carry enough ammo to get the enemy to keep their heads down and make an escape, not actually kill anything.

I'm in favour of the *engine charging storage cells* idea, making the Multilaser the best all around weapon in *real* 40K. Almost unlimited ammo, high RoF, decent strength - lots to love.:)

Try Again Bragg
15-03-2008, 00:23
I think I'll go along with Double Eagle . 3-5 shots is pretty ridiculous. THink about what that would mean to the poor guardsmen on the ground.

Besides I'll choose to believe Dan Abnett over the rule books/codecies 95% of the time. :cool:

AlexCage
15-03-2008, 00:52
Ah, actually it was Double Eagle I was thinking about when I said 5. I was confused and thinking of the part where the main character held his shot down too much and drained his batteries. Which really doesn't seem like it should be possible in the first place. I mean why in the Omnissiah's name would they not put a regulator on those things? ESPECIALLY a fighter plane. Where would having 5 seconds of continuous laser EVER be effective/efficient?

I do find it humorous that Abnett is now the first word in all things fluff for some people... hehe, especially since it was Forgeworld what laid down technical specs for almost all vehicles in the Imperium. Although 3-5 shots does seem a little low for a fighter, I suppose, but I wouldn't imagine it's much more than that. Fighters aren't notorious for carrying alot of ammo.

Same with scouts. But remember, depending on where you read, that las cel a Guardsman carries for his Lascannon is anywhere from 1 - 3 shots. Now that I think about it, the Dark Heresy Man Portable Lascannon has 3 shots as well. That's one ******* cell! The Sentinel definitely doesn't have room for much more than that. Honestly, it really doesn't need it, either. As has been stated many times already, the things are not main-battle tanks. They aren't meant for protracted fighting. And they can still have fairly long time in-field with 3 shots, because remember they can recharge those things almost anywhere. Even in fire, if necessary.

Personally I'd be AOK if my sentinel only had 3 shots. Because if it gets to the point where I've fired my 3 giant tracer rounds that have just painted me with a big red "COME GET ME" sign, and there are things still alive, I'm going to be running the hell away anyways. Back to base!

Iracundus
15-03-2008, 03:54
The Thunderbolt entry in Forgeworld books has 30 shots from battery packs listed for the twin linked lascannons. It doesn't say whether this is 30 shots of both lascannons or 30 shots total (ie 15 shots of both lascannons).

doom_diver
15-03-2008, 05:19
The Sentinal is a scout. So it should have enough ammo to survive a fight. Exept for the Missle Launcher Sentinal. How in gods name does that reload?

Burnthem
15-03-2008, 09:04
I imagine a single shot from a Lascannon would last only maybe half a second at the absolute maximum (IMO) so a continuous shot of about 5 seconds isnt really that far fetched, as its equates to 10, possibly 15, single shots. A modern day assault rifle (the SA80A2 for example) will empty a magazine on automatic in about 3-4 seconds but that still 30 single shots!

Try Again Bragg
15-03-2008, 13:15
I do find it humorous that Abnett is now the first word in all things fluff for some people.

It just that a lot of his stuff makes more sense than what the game designers are asking us to believe.

Gorbad Ironclaw
15-03-2008, 15:32
I dont know about you but i'd certainly think twice about going anywhere near combat with a main weapon system capable of only firing 3 shots! Sentinel Lascannons must be able to fire more shots, at the expense of power possibly, as 3 shots is just stupid.


That would be why the Sentinel is a scout platform and not intended as an aggressive weapon system. It got weapons for self-defence, but it's not really intended to go out there and kill stuff.
It can, but it's not it's main role and it's not equipped with weapons/ammunition intended to last it through a battle.

A scout walker would be supposed to find the enemy and possibly lead combat patrols to the enemy, not really fight the enemy.

Burnthem
15-03-2008, 15:56
It doesnt matter if your a chef or a scout or even a storeman, you do not go anywhere near combat with a weapon that has a 3 shot non-reloadable ammo supply, its just basic common sense.

A Sentinel is expected to get close to the enemy and confirm their position, basic recce stuff, equipping a recce vehicle with only 3 shots is madness. British Scimitar light tanks are Recce vehicles, and they certainly carry more than 3 30mm rounds for thier Rarden Cannon.

icegreentea
15-03-2008, 20:30
Yeah, but a lascannon is not the equivalent of a chain gun. Its more like a missile launcher on riods. It meant to take out armour in one shot. A chaingun would be more along the lines of a autocannon, and we've already established a 50-100 round range for that (seems to make sense).

Comparing the lascannon load (3-5) to the TOW missile load on a Bradley configured for scout (as in an US armoured cav regiment), the Bradley has two missiles ready to fire, and 5ish ready for reload. Now it seems far more reasonable.

The big thing is that lascannons are suppose to be one/two hit kill weapons. And staying hidden while firing them is near impossible. I don't see a problem with a relatively low ammo capacity on a Sentinal. I mean, if you use more than 10 lascannons shots, you'v probably died about 3 shots ago.

sulla
15-03-2008, 20:57
I assume that multilaser and lascannon sentinels don't carry additional ammunition (power cells) because they get energy from their engines.



I mean why in the Omnissiah's name would they not put a regulator on those things?

Assuming the Imperium understands and has the technology to massproduce alternators... Nothing is a given in the 41st millennium.

Burnthem
15-03-2008, 21:54
icegreentea - yes, the comparison with a TOW/ATGW is valid, however the Bradley also has its main 25mm armament, whereas the Sentinel only has the Lascannon. This is where i think that it wouldnt work, a limited shot anti-tank weapon is fine, but not when its your only weapon.

Iracundus
16-03-2008, 00:16
The Sentinel isn't even the same as a light tank. It's a single crewman in what is equivalent to a walking fork lift.

Try Again Bragg
16-03-2008, 00:40
The scouting aspects of sentinels may be stressed in the fluff, but they are not used that way on the table-top. In-game they are expected to fight, not run. If you think about it, sentinels could be expected to act in a fire-support role. There are a few things that would make them better in this role than guys on the ground. They are more mobile and surrounded by armor, light as it may be. We may also be leaving out the fact that sentinels are expected to work in squadrons, not singly.

Iracundus
16-03-2008, 07:47
The Sentinels as they are on the table is probably one of those times when they're doing a hit and run or as support to the main battle line. They are a cheap and expendable means of getting a little additional firepower in addition to just their scouting role. However, they probably after the battle have to go get re-armed as they are still not meant for any real extended combat.

CELS
16-03-2008, 14:59
Looking at the Epic system gives us more information about the tactical use of Sentinels in battle. They are obviously very useful for capturing mission objectives rather than just attacking the enemy lines. Furthermore, since each fire fight or assault in Epic represents everything that happens in a whole game of 40k (and a single unit may be involved in several assaults during a single turn), it is clear that the Sentinel has enough ammunition for an extended engagement. If it was particularly prone to run out of ammunition, there would probably be rules to represent this (for example, Vulture gunships with 2 Hellstrike missiles can only fire that weapon twice [or once with two shots] in Epic )

Anyway, I must disagree with Try Again Bragg that "in-game they are expected to fight, not run". Because in Epic, they run a lot and Epic tends to show the strategic use of units a lot better than 40k, in my opinion. (Ref: Space Marines)

Basically, we have to assume that the actual machines are probably a bit different from the miniatures and artwork. It is very similar to how there are very few Space Marine miniatures (or pictures of Space Marines) with more than one or two extra clips of ammunition. Indeed, some Space Marines appear to be charging into battle with only a single clip of ammunition, which they unload at full-auto as soon as possible (if we go by artwork).

Perfect Organism
16-03-2008, 16:35
icegreentea - yes, the comparison with a TOW/ATGW is valid, however the Bradley also has its main 25mm armament, whereas the Sentinel only has the Lascannon. This is where i think that it wouldnt work, a limited shot anti-tank weapon is fine, but not when its your only weapon.

It's probably worth noting that Sentinels usually operate in squadrons. Two or three sentinels would be equivalent to a single scout tank, so the anti-tank lascannon Sentinel could rely on fire support from Multilaser or Autocannon comrades when faced with large numbers of targets.

Even so, I very much doubt that they would carry as few as three shots for the lascannon.