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40kdhs
12-03-2008, 19:36
I heard that force weapon in 5th edition is going to be suck.

Will force weapon work the same in 5th edition.?

I seriously hope that GW doesn't screw up GK GM force weapon in this new edition.

Souchan
12-03-2008, 20:45
It will count as instant death according to the last rumours I heard. I do not think this to be sucky, but sadly not as good as it used to be.

colmarekblack
12-03-2008, 22:46
So no more insta-killing 'nid MC's with that cheeky honourifica sanc-psyker :(

Darth Rubi
12-03-2008, 22:59
I thought the entire point of force weapons was to bypass instant death immunity.

Wow, another pointless change brought to you by the brightest minds in the business. I'll add that one into the pile with "walkers only moving and shooting 1 weapon" and "snipers hitting on raw bs"

Splata
12-03-2008, 23:17
I think it makes sense in the scheme of things. The creature is not controlling itself, the hivemind is and you can't really fry the hivemind. Also, a D cannon can't stop it by sucking it into the warp, how on earth can a puny san psyker do it?

DoctorTom
12-03-2008, 23:32
On the other hands, Chaos Sorcerers and Aspiring Sorcerers with the Mark of Tzeentch will be able to use the force weapon and another psychic power! :)

40kdhs
12-03-2008, 23:37
It will count as instant death according to the last rumours I heard. I do not think this to be sucky, but sadly not as good as it used to be.

So GW treats force weapon the same way as a power fist.? Wow, holy cow.! It's simply a way for GW to protect their beloved 'characters'.

GK GM doesn't immunize to instant death while everybody else does.? It really SUCKS.

If it is the case, i won't use GK GM in a game any more.

Stezerok
13-03-2008, 00:12
yea pretty much I'm going to hate TMC's... Yea sure, Force Weapons, using the most powerful psykers the imperium has to offer, can't sever the Hivemind's connections to the MC... Yea sure Tyranid MC's can crawl back out of the warp after rolling a 6 with Wraithcannons, and D-Cannons... GW can really bother me... But I suppose it's all to encourage streamlining, and to improve their new favorite rule: Eternal Warrior. Oh well, 5th definitely won't be bad because of this rule so I guess I'm alright.

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

cybercaine
13-03-2008, 00:24
Let me start by saying that I think standardizing these rules is the way to go. There is already an instant death mechanic. Force weapons should use that very same mechanic, rather than the "other" instant death mechanic, which I find to be vaguely stupid as it is really the same thing- a mechanic meant to kill something outright. Whether or not creatures in the Hivemind should suffer from instant death, that's another question, but one in which the developers have weighed in with their opinion of "no". But let's be honest, having 2 rules which essentially do the same thing is sort of ridiculous. I mean, the rules do the same thing unless the target has an immunity to instant death. I, for one, am willing to acknowledge this terrible mechanical difference, especially as it pertains to explaining it to new players. Have you attempted to explain to a new player why it is that their model which is immune to "instant death" isn't immune to the force weapon? And it's not the new player's fault with a failure to understand such a counter-intuitive difference. That's the fault of a terrible written and supported ruleset. I think it's past time that this is changed to make the game more accessible and intuitive to players.

Stezerok
13-03-2008, 00:41
yea I agree with you Cybercaine that it is better from a game designers viewpoint. I just feel like, in general, streamlining like this often times removes the flavor of something unique, if you can get what I mean by that, while it also is kind of demeaning to players to put in this idea that "we don't think you'll fully understand the rules, so we'll make it simpler for you..." I'm not saying anything bad about you, I'm just saying that rules should be left complex to promote more complex thinking, and that just wording needs to be amended. But again, thats just my gripe as a player, if I were to look at it through the perspective of a game designer I have to say that you're probably right.

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

cailus
13-03-2008, 04:06
So let me get this straight:

S4 Librarian wounds a T6 MC with a force weapon.

He then passes his psychic test which means either:

a.) That the force weapon causes instant death and the creatures loses all of its wounds and dies.

or

b.) The force weapon causes instant death and if the strength of the force weapon is double the toughness the creature loses all of its wounds. In this case a S4 Space Marine with Force weapon can only Insta-kill T2 critters (i.e. single wound grots)?

What am I missing here?

Stezerok
13-03-2008, 04:19
So let me get this straight:

S4 Librarian wounds a T6 MC with a force weapon.

He then passes his psychic test which means either:

a.) That the force weapon causes instant death and the creatures loses all of its wounds and dies.

or

b.) The force weapon causes instant death and if the strength of the force weapon is double the toughness the creature loses all of its wounds. In this case a S4 Space Marine with Force weapon can only Insta-kill T2 critters (i.e. single wound grots)?

What am I missing here?

Well... now, for a, you have it right... For b. I'm not sure I understand where you're getting that from. If you mean to ask whether the double strength clause is a necessary prerequisite for Instant Death, then no. Double Strength causes Instant Death, but something that causes Instant Death by definition, like a Force Weapon, or Wraithcannon, does so regardless of Double Strength.

Point being, that in the case of Tyranid Monstrous Creatures, and now Daemon Princes, Force Weapons no longer work their magic. Now Grey Knight Grand Masters, will get completely owned in combat because they simply don't have the number of attacks to statistically pull off those wounds, nevermind Librarians... I only wish GW had the foresight to at least give my Avatar Eternal Warrior as well... Please at LEAST write an FAQ for my Eldar GW!

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

cailus
13-03-2008, 04:37
Well... now, for a, you have it right... For b. I'm not sure I understand where you're getting that from. If you mean to ask whether the double strength clause is a necessary prerequisite for Instant Death, then no. Double Strength causes Instant Death, but something that causes Instant Death by definition, like a Force Weapon, or Wraithcannon, does so regardless of Double Strength.

Thanks for the clarification.




Point being, that in the case of Tyranid Monstrous Creatures, and now Daemon Princes, Force Weapons no longer work their magic. Now Grey Knight Grand Masters, will get completely owned in combat because they simply don't have the number of attacks to statistically pull off those wounds, nevermind Librarians... I only wish GW had the foresight to at least give my Avatar Eternal Warrior as well... Please at LEAST write an FAQ for my Eldar GW!

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Oh I get it. This is due to them being immune to instant death.

Stezerok
13-03-2008, 04:45
Thanks for the clarification.



Oh I get it. This is due to them being immune to instant death.

ah yea. No problem!

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

cybercaine
13-03-2008, 05:50
Point being, that in the case of Tyranid Monstrous Creatures, and now Daemon Princes, Force Weapons no longer work their magic. Now Grey Knight Grand Masters, will get completely owned in combat because they simply don't have the number of attacks to statistically pull off those wounds, nevermind Librarians... I only wish GW had the foresight to at least give my Avatar Eternal Warrior as well... Please at LEAST write an FAQ for my Eldar GW!


That avatar is, while vulnerable to instant kill, isn't really vulnerable to a librarian. . . I mean, especially if you cast that psychic power that allows him to reroll saves. W/ weaponskill 10, high I, T6, and a 4+rerollable invuln. . . why don't more people play the avatar. . . ? It's kinda ******* good. . .

cailus
13-03-2008, 06:21
That avatar is, while vulnerable to instant kill, isn't really vulnerable to a librarian. . . I mean, especially if you cast that psychic power that allows him to reroll saves. W/ weaponskill 10, high I, T6, and a 4+rerollable invuln. . . why don't more people play the avatar. . . ? It's kinda ******* good. . .

From what I've seen, they're powerfist fodder. A 10 man Tactical squad with a Powerfist wielding sergeant will usually wipe out an Avatar long before he actually takes them out.

Mind you in my experience all big multi-wound critters, independent characters and walkers are powerfist fodder.

sushicaddy
13-03-2008, 06:33
From what I've seen, they're powerfist fodder. A 10 man Tactical squad with a Powerfist wielding sergeant will usually wipe out an Avatar long before he actually takes them out.

Mind you in my experience all big multi-wound critters, independent characters and walkers are powerfist fodder.

really? 4 attacks hitting on a 3+ wounding on a 2+ with a 4+ inv save that is re-rolled and 4 wound will be crushed by a sergeant with 3 attacks hitting on 5+ wounding on 2+?

this is very mathhammer-y, but the avatar should kill 3 a turn, and the sergent will inflict one wound per 4 turns ish.

the invulnerable save which is re-rolled makes all the difference.

cybercaine
13-03-2008, 06:58
Exactly. . . rerolls on that invuln roll is really sick. The avatar is a beatstick. That high WS is awesome as well. . . makes it a lot rougher to be PW fodder as well. . . or Monstrous Creature fodder. . . etc.

Seriously, why don't I see more Avatars on the board? I pHeAr that monster!

sushicaddy
13-03-2008, 07:03
Exactly. . . rerolls on that invuln roll is really sick. The avatar is a beatstick. That high WS is awesome as well. . . makes it a lot rougher to be PW fodder as well. . . or Monstrous Creature fodder. . . etc.

Seriously, why don't I see more Avatars on the board? I pHeAr that monster!

The guy who just won the RT at my Local store brings one for is mainly foot-slogging shooty eldar army. He really lays down the hurt.

Vineas
13-03-2008, 07:03
You must have seen ****** luck. Last game I played my Fortuned Avatar waltzed through 4 DW squads (1 squad had 4 guys with LC's) before finally being brought down. That was 11 PF attacks, 16 LC attacks and 4 PW attacks. A Fortuned Avatar is going to be damn nigh on impossible to take down.

Forgetting Fortune it will still take incredible luck for a 10 man tac squad (which for some reason is actually less common than the Avatar showing up for every battle :rolleyes:) to kill the Avatar before being wiped out, and if 5th ed. rules stand for Ld that 10 man squad will break and run more often than not leaving the Avatar to consolidate into something he can kill faster or to move back to allow another unit or 2 in front of him to re-engage the now depleted SM squad.

cybercaine
13-03-2008, 07:04
Oh and as far as the Librarian v. Avatar. . . the Avatar is hit by the librarian on 5+, wounded on 6+. Even still, he has a 4+ save. Even without the reroll, we're talking a 1 in 36 chance that the Librarian will even have a chance to psychic test. Which also may or may not be at a penalty with extra dice against the eldar player. The avatar isn't really vulnerable to a force weapon. With the re-roll, you're looking at a 1 in 72 chance of getting to make that psychic test per attack versus the avatar. Not impossible. . . but unlikely. What this more affects are other creatures with eternal warrior and hivemind creatures. Phoenix Lords, Ghazghull, Abbadon, HT, Broodlord, 'Fex, Demon Prince, etc. . . these guys will no longer be vulnerable to the force weapon.

Borin
13-03-2008, 13:15
Weapons that do instant death directly aren't affected by rules like tiraid hive mind. That only works on instant death by ST, it's like the rules for weapons D on the Apocalypse codex. Causes instant death regardless of ST and Toughness.

It's a little diference but makes a lot of diference. But I'm also in the group that instant death it's too much common these days.
But they give immunity to the models that don't need it like the Caos Deamon Princes that are clearly underpriced.
On the other way some expensive IC choices are too much vulnerable to power fist that are the main way of instant death. That apply to most of the SM,CSM and eldar ICs.

Stezerok
13-03-2008, 14:19
Weapons that do instant death directly aren't affected by rules like tiraid hive mind. That only works on instant death by ST, it's like the rules for weapons D on the Apocalypse codex. Causes instant death regardless of ST and Toughness.

well, sadly thats actually not true. This is the way the codex should have been left as, but the latest Tyranid FAQ actually restates the rule as ignoring all the effects of Instant Death even by weapons that cause it but don't have strength double the toughness. Then they go on to specifically quote such weapons, like the Wraithcannons and such...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

TaintedSpam
13-03-2008, 15:08
Heheheh. I still have a copy of the original 4th edition Tyranid codex FAQ. Remember that one, guys? That one has the ruling that negating Instant Death only applies to weapons of double toughness... (i.e. Missile Launchers hitting Warriors) and not weapons MORE than double toughness (i.e. Lascannons on Warriors). Such a ruling would have swept Warriors off the table never to be seen again. Wraithcannon, D-Cannon, and Force Weapons all affected Tyranids normally in that short lived FAQ. Having GW reverse that FAQ means we now have unstoppable MCs.

While I think Warriors (for example) should be immune to ID from mundane weapons, I think more exotic stuff like force weapons and d-cannon should get around that. You're paying hefty points for a limited access weapon that blows them into the warp for heaven's sake! Consider this possibility: look at is the Ork Shokk Attack Gun. It has two entries on it's effects table that say (much like a Vortex Grenade in Apocalypse) model is removed from play...

Souchan
13-03-2008, 15:15
Heheheh. I still have a copy of the original 4th edition Tyranid codex FAQ. Remember that one, guys? That one has the ruling that negating Instant Death only applies to weapons of double toughness... (i.e. Missile Launchers hitting Warriors) and not weapons MORE than double toughness (i.e. Lascannons on Warriors). Such a ruling would have swept Warriors off the table never to be seen again. Wraithcannon, D-Cannon, and Force Weapons all affected Tyranids normally in that short lived FAQ. Having GW reverse that FAQ means we now have unstoppable MCs.

While I think Warriors (for example) should be immune to ID from mundane weapons, I think more exotic stuff like force weapons and d-cannon should get around that. You're paying hefty points for a limited access weapon that blows them into the warp for heaven's sake! Consider this possibility: look at is the Ork Shokk Attack Gun. It has two entries on it's effects table that say (much like a Vortex Grenade in Apocalypse) model is removed from play...

Indeed, no eternal warrior's will walk away from that orky trick^^

Oligarch
13-03-2008, 15:43
Mind you in my experience all big multi-wound critters, independent characters and walkers are powerfist fodder.

MC's, walkers, and units, I'd have to agree with you there.
IC's? Not so much. An independent character gets to pick his own casualties, will usually have superior WS and I (and often S, not to mention a PW), so if there's a PF, there's no PF. IC Metaphysics, y'see?

/Oligarch

Souchan
13-03-2008, 15:54
An Ic's casualties are limited sure, but rarely do they have enough attacks and wounds to bring everyone and the power fist down(short of abaddon, but he's an eternal warrior anyway). 2 inches is a lot of ground that gets covered unless he has the fist on his own on a flank. That, Ill admit, won't leave a fist alive.

Mandragola
13-03-2008, 16:15
IC's? Not so much. An independent character gets to pick his own casualties
/Oligarch

Where does this come from? ICs can't pick who they kill in the current rules and it doesn't seem like they will be able to in 5th, or at least not according to the pdf that I have seen.

Mojaco
13-03-2008, 16:23
You must have seen ****** luck. Last game I played my Fortuned Avatar waltzed through 4 DW squads (1 squad had 4 guys with LC's) before finally being brought down. That was 11 PF attacks, 16 LC attacks and 4 PW attacks. A Fortuned Avatar is going to be damn nigh on impossible to take down.
I had a game when he was shot down by one volley of a vyper. 1 volley.
That's 7 shots IIRC, hitting on 4+, wounding on 4+, Saves of 3+ with re-rolls. And 4 wounds. Yet, he died with 5. That sucked...

Anyway, didn't the forceweapon get FAQ'd into causing instant death some time ago? I thought so, so to me it's an improvement as you can now use warptime :) I like!

Odin
13-03-2008, 16:28
I thought the entire point of force weapons was to bypass instant death immunity.

Wow, another pointless change brought to you by the brightest minds in the business. I'll add that one into the pile with "walkers only moving and shooting 1 weapon" and "snipers hitting on raw bs"

Snipers use Bs again? Well, that makes sense, I like it. Sniper weapons are generally pretty hard to use - the benefit should be in hitting weak points (i.e. rending), not hitting virtually automatically.

Bloodknight
13-03-2008, 16:41
Agreed; I always thought that sniper rifles in 3rd and 4th edition were a joke unless they were Eldar rifles. Hitting all the time - good. Wounding half of the time regardless of T - what? Should they not aim for the weak parts? AP 6? Lol...
I very much preferred the way needle rifles worked in 2nd edition, hitting on BS and inflicting an automatic wound.

As for the force weapon: I just hope they won't make it "power or force weapon" as it is now. Psykers pay a lot for both and should be able to use both.
An example: a chaos sorcerer with Nurgle's rot and a force weapon => NR is a weak power which can be used in CC, but if he does so, he cannot instagib an enemy character anymore. Or Warptime => that would be excellent combined with a force weapon, as it is it just tranforms his weapon into a glorified lightning claw. Another example would be an SM librarian with a shooting power: use it and he gets weak in CC if he charges after shooting (but he still pays about 40 points for his force weapon which then only functions as a power weapon).
IG psykers are probably the only ones who can use a force weapon to full effect since their powers are so bad that the guys better restrain themselves from using them.

EarlGrey
13-03-2008, 16:49
So, wait, people are complaining that a Warp based weapon can't kill things that are protected by the warp?
1: Hive Mind protection via Synapse. This can easily be viewed by the Hive Mind distrupting the psykers attempts - like it does in the fluff. Bear in mind you can still insta-kill them when outside of synapse.
2: Eternal Warrior, ala Daemon Prince. He's pretty much MADE of the Warp.

Just, think about it for a moment.

Arkturas
13-03-2008, 17:10
This rule will cut both ways, wouldn't adamantine mantle now provide force weapon protection too. Part of the essence of tyranids would be no instant death but they also don't have a lot of invulnerable saves, something of a fair trade I think.

40kdhs
13-03-2008, 18:17
I mean, the rules do the same thing unless the target has an immunity to instant death. Have you attempted to explain to a new player why it is that their model which is immune to "instant death" isn't immune to the force weapon?

The rules are not the same. With a forceweapon, You need to pass your LD test after putting 1 wound to kill a model outright. A powerfist guy doesn't need to pass any test to kill a T4 model.

A powerfist guy doesn't use his mind to kill his opponent while a forceweapon guy uses his mind to 'crack' his opponent. Do you see X-Men movie lately.? It's a huge difference.

As far as I'm concerned, GKs receive no benefit at all in 5th edition if all the rumors are correct. They really SUCKs because they have nothing going for them. I hope that GW keeps GKs in 'mind' when designing this new rule.

Mojaco
13-03-2008, 19:04
Gk can now run. That helps a largely footslogging army brilliantly. Other then that, GK have always had a hard time. I don't see the new rules making that worse.

Souchan
13-03-2008, 19:43
Run will make such a difference. It's awesome.

Have I btw understood correctly(I don't have the pdf, not wanting it either) that IC's will no longer be targeted in squads they have joined and will simply be exposed in the same way sergeants will be(ie. the new wounding rules, this would aslo be a GK boost if I understand correctly)?

Master Vaine
13-03-2008, 21:51
AS a GK player, i can tell you how many times ive relyed on using good combination of tactics and luck to win the day rather than the rules. And though running, GK using chimera/rhinos, and etc. are great, the lost of Always IDing force weapon will be a big blow. The GM is one of are best character, hes already kited out at base points. But with out the Force weapon rule, espically if the "Daemons do not suffer ID" rumour for Codex daemons proves true, we basicly get is an overpriced, blown up brother captain. I just hope either GW amends the ID rule a bit or the good outweigths the bad.

40kdhs
13-03-2008, 22:09
Gk can now run.

Everybody can run. Nothing is special because everybody does it.


That helps a largely footslogging army brilliantly. Other then that, GK have always had a hard time. I don't see the new rules making that worse.

What separate a GK GM from the rest is his S6 force weapon. Without this weapon, he is basically a multi-wound BC character.

While everybody else has an item or special rule which prevents their characters from NOT being 'instant killed', GK GM doesn't have anything. You can see why i'm not happy about this change. Not, it is NOT a fair trade at all.

I wonder what else GKs have to sacrify in the name of Emperor. It's simply BS and pathetic to even think about it.

pepe5454
13-03-2008, 23:56
If I am reading this right I am not sure what reason there is left to take a force weapon at all really. Most things you would want one for are immune to instant death those who aren't well just use a power fist now it has the bonus of killing tanks to. My DA librarians are getting worse to the point I am going to be hiding them in a corner to use their psychic hoods if I take one =P

Kalec
14-03-2008, 00:09
An inquisitor lord with the +1 ld henchie and a psychic hood can handle psychis powers just as well as the librarian, and blast away with a psycannon and a plasmacannon gunservitor. Grab 2 6-point models and you get 5 bs on the lord and rerolling to hit for the servitor.

I, for one, will be leaving my Librarian at home if this comes true.

Occulto
14-03-2008, 00:25
While everybody else has an item or special rule which prevents their characters from NOT being 'instant killed', GK GM doesn't have anything. You can see why i'm not happy about this change. Not, it is NOT a fair trade at all.

Everyone else? You sure about that? :eyebrows:


The rules are not the same. With a forceweapon, You need to pass your LD test after putting 1 wound to kill a model outright. A powerfist guy doesn't need to pass any test to kill a T4 model.

And a powerfist on an IC is recipe for disaster. Either the IC gets it's butt kicked by higher initiative weapons, or they're left unengaged and unable to target anything.

Not only that, but a powerfist is only worth it against T4 enemies. You still can't instant kill a carnifex with a PF. One lurking outside of synapse on the other hand? Force weapon fodder.

pepe5454
14-03-2008, 00:32
heh so take a force weapon and hope he gets out of synapse range and then charge him? I wouldn't put a PF on an IC I would put them in allot more tacs or command squads or veterans though. Just seems like it might as well be a power weapon now if this is truly how they plan to make it. They could put some other special rule or effect on it for all we know though.

Occulto
14-03-2008, 00:54
heh so take a force weapon and hope he gets out of synapse range and then charge him?

In most games I've played against Nids, they haven't bothered shepherding their carnifexes with synapse. The carnies are generally running round on their own cheerfully tearing apart things. It's the gaunts who need keeping in line.


I wouldn't put a PF on an IC I would put them in allot more tacs or command squads or veterans though.

Well, there's that pesky rumour about fists working like lightning claws (ie you need a pair to get bonus attack for 2 CCW).

But anyway, I was more talking about the original complaint which dealt with GK Grand Masters. A GM is still toting a S6 I5 weapon that can cause instant death - much better than a powerfist.


Just seems like it might as well be a power weapon now if this is truly how they plan to make it. They could put some other special rule or effect on it for all we know though.

*chuckles*

It's still instant death! :D That's a lot better than a power weapon in my opinion. Besides, plenty of armies have no protection against ID.

Vineas
14-03-2008, 01:18
Yeah, Tau Ethereals, IG SHO's....:)

My Bloodthirster is going to laugh at Force Weapons....hehe. :)

Baaltharus
14-03-2008, 01:18
So, wait, people are complaining that a Warp based weapon can't kill things that are protected by the warp?
1: Hive Mind protection via Synapse. This can easily be viewed by the Hive Mind distrupting the psykers attempts - like it does in the fluff. Bear in mind you can still insta-kill them when outside of synapse.
2: Eternal Warrior, ala Daemon Prince. He's pretty much MADE of the Warp.

Just, think about it for a moment.

Except that daemons and their like are supposed to be vunerable to warp based weaponry...Enough said. I think the changes to the force weapon are ridiculous, like the assault cannon they've become horribly overpriced for what they can do.

Occulto
14-03-2008, 01:20
Yeah, Tau Ethereals, IG SHO's....:)

My Bloodthirster is going to laugh at Force Weapons....hehe. :)

Daemonhammer for the win! :D

Souchan
14-03-2008, 01:21
Everybody can run. Nothing is special because everybody does it.



What separate a GK GM from the rest is his S6 force weapon. Without this weapon, he is basically a multi-wound BC character.

While everybody else has an item or special rule which prevents their characters from NOT being 'instant killed', GK GM doesn't have anything. You can see why i'm not happy about this change. Not, it is NOT a fair trade at all.

I wonder what else GKs have to sacrify in the name of Emperor. It's simply BS and pathetic to even think about it.

What GKs need to sacrifice is one thing only and we've been doing it for a while and will probably have to keep doing so.
Time.
We need an update, but we are not a popular army, so we aren't high on priorities. I find this to be a pity, but hey, I got time. I chose GK's for their looks not their rules, I do not expect them to waylay a rule just to please us when the new rule is far more in line with their stream lining.(when I started playing I thought synapsed nids and the like did prevent force weapons, they we're immune to instant death so this struck as they'd always be immune to ID and any similar effects)

So be patient while watching the rules depart ever further from our codex and remember one day, one day those who play Chaos will once again get to view us at our full capacity and remember why among the Emperor's finest we are the finest still :D

EarlGrey
14-03-2008, 02:38
Except that daemons and their like are supposed to be vunerable to warp based weaponry...Enough said. I think the changes to the force weapon are ridiculous, like the assault cannon they've become horribly overpriced for what they can do.

Were vulnerable. :)
It's only Daemon Princes though, who are a slightly different breed. Greater Summoned Daemons are still vulnerable. But we shall see what comes with the Daemon Codex.

40kdhs
14-03-2008, 03:01
Everyone else? You sure about that? :eyebrows:


Absolutely. A GK GM will kill any wounded model outright regardless of T unless this model's profile indicates otherwise.

If this rumor is true, a GK GM will not kill any wounded model outright because this model either has better T5 or item which prevents him from being 'instant kill' while a GK GM will die because of a S8 weapon.

What this 5th edition rule does to a GK GM is to tell him carry S6 power weapon.

a new and improved GK GM in this edition looks like a GKT with better stat. It's totally unacceptable.

40kdhs
14-03-2008, 03:09
What GKs need to sacrifice is one thing only and we've been doing it for a while and will probably have to keep doing so.
Time.


Time is what we really don't have right now because everybody seems to be better while ours is going down the hill.



We need an update, but we are not a popular army, so we aren't high on priorities.


It is not my fault or anybody else for that matter. It's GW's fault.



I find this to be a pity, but hey, I got time. I chose GK's for their looks not their rules, I do not expect them to waylay a rule just to please us when the new rule is far more in line with their stream lining.(when I started playing I thought synapsed nids and the like did prevent force weapons, they we're immune to instant death so this struck as they'd always be immune to ID and any similar effects)

So be patient while watching the rules depart ever further from our codex and remember one day, one day those who play Chaos will once again get to view us at our full capacity and remember why among the Emperor's finest we are the finest still :D

I'm tired of waiting and being promised for something that doesn't exist. I lost my faith in God and humanity a long time ago.

Patient is virtual but I honestly don't have this kind of patient for what is happening to GKs.

I hope that GW is taking notes.

Occulto
14-03-2008, 03:25
Absolutely. A GK GM will kill any wounded model outright regardless of T unless this model's profile indicates otherwise.

Yes, I'm aware what a force weapon does. :D


If this rumor is true, a GK GM will not kill any wounded model outright because this model either has better T5 or item which prevents him from being 'instant kill' while a GK GM will die because of a S8 weapon.

Where do you get T5 from? :confused:

I'm reading the rumour as, force weapons cause instant death regardless of the user's strength. So ID could happen from one of two ways: strength double the target's toughness (powerfist, railgun etc) or a weapon that inflicts ID (forceweapon).


What this 5th edition rule does to a GK GM is to tell him carry S6 power weapon.

Against a SM captain (no adamantium mantle) you're wounding on 2s and if you're still going to kill him if you pass your Ld test.

The Dude
14-03-2008, 03:27
Absolutely. A GK GM will kill any wounded model outright regardless of T unless this model's profile indicates otherwise.

If this rumor is true, a GK GM will not kill any wounded model outright because this model either has better T5 or item which prevents him from being 'instant kill' while a GK GM will die because of a S8 weapon.

So to reiterate Occultoís question, you are absolutely sure that every multi-wound unit in the game has a rule that negates Instant Death?

I really donít think thatís correct :eyebrows:

Baaltharus
14-03-2008, 03:49
It certainly doesn't but I think what there trying to get across is that most of those worth killing with a the force weapon will be immune to it and as such the cost of the weapon is too high for what it is now capable of.

The Dude
14-03-2008, 04:59
It certainly doesn't but I think what there trying to get across is that most of those worth killing with a the force weapon will be immune to it and as such the cost of the weapon is too high for what it is now capable of.

Well shall we do a list?

Multi-wound units with ID immunity:
Marine Characters with Adamantium Mantle (note this then precludes any other characters having this or an Iron Halo)
Hive Tyrant
Brood Lord
Warriors
Zoanthropes
Plus anything within Synapse range
Phoenix Lords

Please let me know of anything I’ve missed.

Multi-wound units without ID immunity:
Marine Characters without Adamantium Mantle (this will include all characters from the DA and BA lists and probably SW too. Not sure about Templars)
Lictors and Carnifexs (Biovores?) outside Synapse Range
Avatar
Autarchs
Farseers
Wraithlord
Imperial Guard Officers
Ogryns
Talos
Archon/Drachon
Haemonculous
Tau Commanders
Etherials
Chaos Marine Lords
Greater Summoned Daemon
Ork Warboss
Big Mek
Wierdboy
Nobz/Flash Gitz
C’tan
Necron Lords without Res Orb (although this just gives them WWB, they still lose all their wounds)

I’m sure I’ve missed plenty there too.

No, I think the Force Weapon still has plenty of uses ;)

Baaltharus
14-03-2008, 05:11
Well shall we do a list?

Multi-wound units with ID immunity:
Marine Characters with Adamantium Mantle (note this then precludes any other characters having this or an Iron Halo)
Hive Tyrant
Brood Lord
Warriors
Zoanthropes
Plus anything within Synapse range
Phoenix Lords

Please let me know of anything Iíve missed.

Multi-wound units without ID immunity:
Marine Characters without Adamantium Mantle (this will include all characters from the DA and BA lists and probably SW too. Not sure about Templars)
Lictors and Carnifexs (Biovores?) outside Synapse Range
Avatar
Autarchs
Farseers
Wraithlord
Imperial Guard Officers
Ogryns
Talos
Archon/Drachon
Haemonculous
Tau Commanders
Etherials
Chaos Marine Lords
Greater Summoned Daemon
Ork Warboss
Big Mek
Wierdboy
Nobz/Flash Gitz
Cítan
Necron Lords without Res Orb (although this just gives them WWB, they still lose all their wounds)

Iím sure Iíve missed plenty there too.

No, I think the Force Weapon still has plenty of uses ;)

If the 5th edition rumours are true it only causes instant death which may well mean the likes of Avatars and greater daemons are immune my default. The fact that the C'tan are immune to all force weapon wielding units in the game bar Mephiston and Typhus also largely negates their usefulness.

If we go through the list most of these units can be dealt with by other means far more effectively and consistently that force weapon wielders for a similar cost. It could be argued that the 'new' SM libarians and those similar to them are just not worth the cost what with the SM Libs ld 9 and rather pathetic list of psychic powers (which stop you from using the force weapon anyway).

TaintedSpam
14-03-2008, 05:22
Immune:
Daemon Princes
You can cull the Tyranid list down to "any tyranid within synapse, including itself."
Abbadon
Master of the Ravenwing (mantle)
Ghazghkull Thraka

Not immune:
Obliterators
All the rest of the named Chaos characters.

Special:
Kharn - he's specifically immune to Force Weapon ID.

The Dude
14-03-2008, 05:39
If the 5th edition rumours are true it only causes instant death which may well mean the likes of Avatars and greater daemons are immune my default.

Why? Do the unit entries for the Avatar and Greater Summoned Daemons specifically state an immunity to ID?


The fact that the C'tan are immune to all force weapon wielding units in the game bar Mephiston and Typhus also largely negates their usefulness.

Well I don’t have the Necron Dex, but why are Mephison and Typhus able to perform Instant Death on them?


If we go through the list most of these units can be dealt with by other means far more effectively and consistently that force weapon wielders for a similar cost.

But the option is there. If you manage to crap out on your rolls and only get one wound, at least you have the option to pull ID on these things.


It could be argued that the 'new' SM libarians and those similar to them are just not worth the cost what with the SM Libs ld 9 and rather pathetic list of psychic powers (which stop you from using the force weapon anyway).

But the force Weapon is able to be used in your opponents turn, unlike most other Powers. This means that if you’ve been assaulted, or are in a protracted Assault, you still have the option to bust this out.

Really, what are people complaining about here? Be honest, it’s Tyranid Monstrous Creatures, isn’t it?

I’ll be honest, I think this is a really cool thing. It makes taking out the Synapse network slightly more important.


Master of the Ravenwing (mantle)

Oops! Forgot about him :p

TaintedSpam
14-03-2008, 05:49
Well I donít have the Necron Dex, but why are Mephison and Typhus able to perform Instant Death on them?

They're both S5 and can wound them.

The Dude
14-03-2008, 05:55
They're both S5 and can wound them.

So C'tan are too tough to be wounded by the average Force Weapon? This shouldn't be a problem for a Nemesis Force Weapon though, should it?

TaintedSpam
14-03-2008, 06:01
It's possible, but you'd still need fours to hit and sixes to wound. Odds are that'll end up being one (very) dead GK Grand Master. I can't imagine many characters going toe to toe with a C'Tan, and I don't think any of them wield a force weapon. Granted, this is an extreme example.

TaintedSpam
14-03-2008, 06:04
(looks at BA codex)...

Well, Mephiston has a better chance than most... ;)

The Dude
14-03-2008, 06:08
I can't imagine many characters going toe to toe with a C'Tan, and I don't think any of them wield a force weapon. Granted, this is an extreme example.

That's funny, because I can imagine heaps of characters going toe-to-toe with a C'tan.:D


Sure, I can't imagine too many of them winning, but when they do...

Occulto
14-03-2008, 06:15
It's possible, but you'd still need fours to hit and sixes to wound. Odds are that'll end up being one (very) dead GK Grand Master. I can't imagine many characters going toe to toe with a C'Tan, and I don't think any of them wield a force weapon. Granted, this is an extreme example.

That's nothing new though, is it?

The initial complaint was that force weapons will be negated by "immune to instant death" rules/wargear.

So in that situation, the rumoured change would leave players neither better or worse off than before.

Heritor
14-03-2008, 06:43
If the 5th edition rumours are true it only causes instant death which may well mean the likes of Avatars and greater daemons are immune my default. The fact that the C'tan are immune to all force weapon wielding units in the game bar Mephiston and Typhus also largely negates their usefulness.

If we go through the list most of these units can be dealt with by other means far more effectively and consistently that force weapon wielders for a similar cost. It could be argued that the 'new' SM libarians and those similar to them are just not worth the cost what with the SM Libs ld 9 and rather pathetic list of psychic powers (which stop you from using the force weapon anyway).

Nightbringer Costs 360pts... It makes no sense that a soulless being would be killed by a Weapon (that storywise HAS NEVER been that deadly) that devours the soul of someone. Thats like trying to drain blood from a tree.....


In all honesty if they returned the Force weapon to the way it was originally instead of making it the only real reason people took Librarians it would be best represented with Implant attack...


And who the hell uses Forces weapons to kill Tyranid Monsterous Creatures? A Hive Tyrand in a Tyrant Guard squad doesn't count as an independant character and cannot be picked out of the squad....

Also currently an IC can avoid a powerfist or an FW by being out of the kill range. The current rumour is if one member of the squad is in base to base with the IC then all members of the squad are in base to base and there is nolonger a 2 close combat zone... the ENTIRE squad gets to make attacks against the IC even the PW/PF/FW that happens to be 12inches away.

Also PFs nolonger get the +1 for being paired with a bolt pistol/ close combat weapon which will hurt Templar players more then any other group.

Also yeah... i can see how a Force weapon is gonna be useful against a Hive Tyrant with better Initiative, higher WS, and Str only needing to do 2 wounds to kill your 4 wound characters due to implant attacks....

Nid_Food
14-03-2008, 12:52
IC's? Not so much. An independent character gets to pick his own casualties, will usually have superior WS and I (and often S, not to mention a PW), so if there's a PF, there's no PF. IC Metaphysics, y'see?

This is incorrect. IC's do not get to pick their casulties.

pepe5454
14-03-2008, 16:29
Most the units that can still be affected I would just prefer shooting to death it's far easier. It's when your opponent takes something like Abbadon walking at you with a squad of termies around him to take the wounds with sometimes 12 attacks at a higher initiative. Or something with a 2+ save with 4 wounds that will rip you apart in seconds those are when you really want one and pray it works which half the time or less it does not it usually was just a hope that it works. I will use lascannons on the rest or meltas or powerfists and lightning claws. I am not going to run a librarian around the table chasing 2 wound units or bugs out of synapse that can be easier shot. As a DA librarians were already cut down to being not much use this just is gonna make em wimpy so my view point is admittedly skewed. I hope they add something to it if they take this away.

40kdhs
14-03-2008, 18:08
Where do you get T5 from? :confused:


from chaos and tynid codex.



Against a SM captain (no adamantium mantle) you're wounding on 2s and if you're still going to kill him if you pass your Ld test.

do you expect a SM player doesn't give his HQ 'adamantium mantle'.?

40kdhs
14-03-2008, 18:11
So to reiterate Occultoís question, you are absolutely sure that every multi-wound unit in the game has a rule that negates Instant Death?

I really donít think thatís correct :eyebrows:

i'm not talking about multi-wound units such as chaos oblirator or Tynad HQ's bodyguard. I'm talking about other HQ or special characters from other codexes.

if this rumor is true, a GK GM can't go toe to toe to other HQs or special characters because he will die FIRST.

The Dude
15-03-2008, 01:26
Most the units that can still be affected I would just prefer shooting to death it's far easier

Well that’ll change then. You’ll be putting all those shots on the units that are immune to ID instead :p.


do you expect a SM player doesn't give his HQ 'adamantium mantle'.?

If they want to take an Iron Halo, Chapter Banner, Sacred Standard or Holy Relic they won't.


i'm not talking about multi-wound units such as chaos oblirator or Tynad HQ's bodyguard. I'm talking about other HQ or special characters from other codexes.

So you are complaining about a very limited application of the weapon being removed? This seems a bit pointless to me. The things that are immune to this are immune for a reason. That is because they are really, really tough to kill. Rather than just going one-on-one with these units, you will have to throw lots of attacks at them in order to ensure they die. Where's the problem?

thanoson
15-03-2008, 05:50
1st off, that GK GM should not be attacking by himself. If he is, then he deserves what he gets. Now then, if he is backed up by termies, that is a dead hive tyrant/GD/Daemon Prince/avatar etc.....

Xurben
15-03-2008, 10:57
Also the GK guy has what, a initiative 5 str 6 force weapon right?

Most other IC's are going to fight on the same initiative with him. I fail to see how he's going to somehow just die first. Eldar might kill him, but wait, they do that now.

It's a minor change, effects very little. Yet here's another 4 page post about what, in the end, is nothing more then a clarification.

Good Game.

BrianGeneral
15-03-2008, 11:32
Also the GK guy has what, a initiative 5 str 6 force weapon right?

Most other IC's are going to fight on the same initiative with him. I fail to see how he's going to somehow just die first. Eldar might kill him, but wait, they do that now.

It's a minor change, effects very little. Yet here's another 4 page post about what, in the end, is nothing more then a clarification.

Good Game.
Because more and more new units are immune to being IKed, and the initiatives for some units like Chaos Lord with Blissgiver, BA Librarian with Furious Charge, etc. And to be honest, I like how FW work at this state: It pulls a balance against powerful characters/TMCs who're probably striking first, immune to IK, very tough to kill, etc and make the player to think twice if they want to pull them into CC, but now they are more unstoppable than before which will probably break the balance.

Xurben
15-03-2008, 12:13
So wait, are you saying the grey knight guy should just be the top dog of all HQs? 1 chaos lord can go before him, a space marine librarian can (if he gets the charge, welcome to strategy) and almost every other HQ will be simo or the GK going first. He already has a nice str advantage over most others, he's got a nice amount of attacks as well. Not to mention he "should" be coming with 5 friends with 2+/5+ saves.

I fail to see the problem?

What I do see, is characters being killed by squads now more often then by other characters. As it should be..

BrianGeneral
15-03-2008, 12:50
So wait, are you saying the grey knight guy should just be the top dog of all HQs? 1 chaos lord can go before him, a space marine librarian can (if he gets the charge, welcome to strategy) and almost every other HQ will be simo or the GK going first. He already has a nice str advantage over most others, he's got a nice amount of attacks as well. Not to mention he "should" be coming with 5 friends with 2+/5+ saves.

I fail to see the problem?

What I do see, is characters being killed by squads now more often then by other characters. As it should be..
But still, are you saying that things like Mantle, Admantine Skull, or just because of being Eternal in material world shouldn't be able to be destroyed by a Psychic attack?

Xurben
15-03-2008, 13:20
Thats pretty much what I am saying yes.. You have yet to make any comment on how this grey knight fella' is str 6, meaning he'll wound most things on 2+. And hardly any of these HQ's your afraid of are toting insta kill weapons.

You want the item not to have any counter, hence balance problems.

Not good for any game.

The Dude
15-03-2008, 14:18
I'm still convinced the complaint is solely about Tyranid MCs, specifically the Tyrant.

thanoson
15-03-2008, 22:03
Yep. Cause a carny is going to strike last, probably suffering 3 to 4 wounds from said GK. Plus his friends. The only one the GK has to worry about is a tyrant. Which the GK is not designed to fight anyways. Yes, daemon princes are protected by ID. The GK should be making the prince strike at a lower ws due to appropiate wargear, he should be hitting on 3's and also wounding on 3's unless he's nurgle. A 5+ invul is not all that great. In the meantime, the DP is hitting on 4's, wounds on 2's and has to suffer the affects of a 5+ save as well. Meanwhile, the other GK's in the squad mop the floor with him.

Imperialis_Dominatus
16-03-2008, 02:13
I thought the entire point of force weapons was to bypass instant death immunity.

Me too.


On the other hands, Chaos Sorcerers and Aspiring Sorcerers with the Mark of Tzeentch will be able to use the force weapon and another psychic power! :)

Yay for Warptime!


If I am reading this right I am not sure what reason there is left to take a force weapon at all really. Most things you would want one for are immune to instant death those who aren't well just use a power fist now it has the bonus of killing tanks to. My DA librarians are getting worse to the point I am going to be hiding them in a corner to use their psychic hoods if I take one =P

Ugh, psychic hoods. I think they should have a range limit for, say, Apocalypse... my damn Daemon Prince and Sorceror combined got a total of three powers off that game. Bleh. And the Libby was about ten feet (real space) away.


Not only that, but a powerfist is only worth it against T4 enemies. You still can't instant kill a carnifex with a PF.

But you can frickin' wound it on better than a six.


It certainly doesn't but I think what there trying to get across is that most of those worth killing with a the force weapon will be immune to it and as such the cost of the weapon is too high for what it is now capable of.

Exactly. So much for my beautiful converted Sorcerer model... now there's no reason to destroy my beautiful conversion with a crap paint job. Is this both a blessing and a curse?

40kdhs
16-03-2008, 20:31
If they want to take an Iron Halo, Chapter Banner, Sacred Standard or Holy Relic they won't.

It's in the current SM codex but nobody knows if GW is going to change all these wargears in a new SM codex.?



So you are complaining about a very limited application of the weapon being removed? This seems a bit pointless to me. The things that are immune to this are immune for a reason. That is because they are really, really tough to kill. Rather than just going one-on-one with these units, you will have to throw lots of attacks at them in order to ensure they die. Where's the problem?

Of course, I do for a few good reasons:

1- It is not about GK vs Nid.
2- If GK GM's force weapon is not used to be, what will GK GM look.? He is basically a normal BC with +1I and A and 3 Ws.
3- While other HQs are immunized to ID because of their special rules or wargear, GK GM is not. Majority of other HQs will strike FIRST because of better I. If GM is lucky to survive the first round of CC, he won't be in the second round while your wounded HQ will survive.

The current GK GM has 'some RESPECT' in 40k. After removing the effective of his FW, he is SCREWED big time. As long as your HQ has T5 or ID wargear protection, he will survive LONGER than GK GM.

Therefore, how you can look at the 'proposed' FW rule and tell me that it is FAIR or <whatever 'term' you want to insert here> when GK doesn't have the same ID protection.?

No , it is not a minor change and it is really foolish to think so.

Baaltharus
16-03-2008, 20:40
The reason I thought that T6 models might be immune to ID is because strength caps at 10 and thus ID can't be applied beyond said 10 making anything with T6 (possibly) immune.

40kdhs
16-03-2008, 20:52
Also the GK guy has what, a initiative 5 str 6 force weapon right?

Most other IC's are going to fight on the same initiative with him.

Not when they CHARGE or if you have a I6 character.



I fail to see how he's going to somehow just die first.


If the rumor of FW is true, GM will die FIRST because of a S8 weapon or high I HQ.

Your high I character will hit GM on 3+ and wounds him FASTER while he hits yours on 4+.



It's a minor change, effects very little. Yet here's another 4 page post about what, in the end, is nothing more then a clarification.



Were you drinking when you wrote it.? It is a minor change because you FAIL to see my mentioned points or think that everybody will NOT tool up their HQs.


1st off, that GK GM should not be attacking by himself. If he is, then he deserves what he gets. Now then, if he is backed up by termies, that is a dead hive tyrant/GD/Daemon Prince/avatar etc.....

The fact that GM has a bodyguard unit or not doesn't make any real different and i'm going to tell you why.

You and I agree that a GK GM will die FIRST if he goes toe to toe with another HQ because of lacking his I and ID immunization.

Assuming that a GK GM avoids engaging with another HQ doesn't actually keep him SAFE because he will engage ONE and ONE with another HQ soon after his bodyguards are killed. At this point, we see how sucky a GK GM is because of this new FW rule.

40kdhs
16-03-2008, 21:07
Yep. Cause a carny is going to strike last, probably suffering 3 to 4 wounds from said GK. Plus his friends. The only one the GK has to worry about is a tyrant. Which the GK is not designed to fight anyways. Yes, daemon princes are protected by ID. The GK should be making the prince strike at a lower ws due to appropiate wargear, he should be hitting on 3's and also wounding on 3's unless he's nurgle. A 5+ invul is not all that great. In the meantime, the DP is hitting on 4's, wounds on 2's and has to suffer the affects of a 5+ save as well. Meanwhile, the other GK's in the squad mop the floor with him.

i don't really need to send a GM to kill carny because it overkills.! A group of GKTs will do the job quicker.

The Dude
16-03-2008, 23:38
It's in the current SM codex but nobody knows if GW is going to change all these wargears in a new SM codex.?

Now, now. You canít go basing an argument on current rules when it suits you and then drop in this kind of argument when it doesnít. How do you know the Grey Knights Commander wonít get something to make him immune to ID in their new Codex? :rolleyes:


Of course, I do for a few good reasons:

1- It is not about GK vs Nid.

Well Nids are the only thing I can think of that could possibly cause ID at initiative. Anything else is striking before your GM. Please let me know if Iíve missed something :eyebrows:


2- If GK GM's force weapon is not used to be, what will GK GM look.? He is basically a normal BC with +1I and A and 3 Ws.

And a Space marine Chapter Master is just a Captain with a couple of stat buffs, whatís your point? I have shown already that there are plenty of opportunities to utilise the ID power of the Force Weapon, foremost amongst those is killing Greater Daemons, you know, like the background material says they should be?


3- While other HQs are immunized to ID because of their special rules or wargear, GK GM is not. Majority of other HQs will strike FIRST because of better I. If GM is lucky to survive the first round of CC, he won't be in the second round while your wounded HQ will survive.

So some units have something yours doesnít, and you are complaining? Doesnít that sound a little childish? I demand you produce lists of both the HQ units that will attack before a GKGM and those that wouldnít. I think youíll find the ones that do are far from the majority.


The current GK GM has 'some RESPECT' in 40k. After removing the effective of his FW, he is SCREWED big time. As long as your HQ has T5 or ID wargear protection, he will survive LONGER than GK GM.

In a one-on-one comp maybe, but as has been said before, if you are sending in pretty much any character unsupported, you deserve what you get.


Therefore, how you can look at the 'proposed' FW rule and tell me that it is FAIR or <whatever 'term' you want to insert here> when GK doesn't have the same ID protection.?

Because firstly I am not a reactionary child throwing a tantrum because my one trick has changed slightly and am able to see beyond the points that support my bile-filled fury. Secondly, because the units need differences to make the armies unique. If everyone got ID protection, why not just remove the ID rule?


Not when they CHARGE or if you have a I6 character.

If the rumor of FW is true, GM will die FIRST because of a S8 weapon or high I HQ.

Your high I character will hit GM on 3+ and wounds him FASTER while he hits yours on 4+.

Umm, so youíre talking about Eldar then? Do Eldar even have any S8 weapons that hit at initiative?

As Iíve said before, youíre making it out that every other HQ unit out there can strike the GKGM first with ID strength whilst at the same time being protected from ID themselves. This quite simply isnít the case. I could count the number of units that can strike simultaneously or first against a GKGM and cause ID on half of one hand. Sure, there are more units with protection from ID, but come ON! Canít you just pick your targets more carefully?


The fact that GM has a bodyguard unit or not doesn't make any real different and i'm going to tell you why.

You and I agree that a GK GM will die FIRST if he goes toe to toe with another HQ because of lacking his I and ID immunization.

Assuming that a GK GM avoids engaging with another HQ doesn't actually keep him SAFE because he will engage ONE and ONE with another HQ soon after his bodyguards are killed. At this point, we see how sucky a GK GM is because of this new FW rule.

So the bodyguard have not hit or wounded the opposing HQ unit at all, despite all having Nemesis Force Weapons themselves?

What crazy world are you living in man?


The reason I thought that T6 models might be immune to ID is because strength caps at 10 and thus ID can't be applied beyond said 10 making anything with T6 (possibly) immune.

Force Weapons specifically state that ID is applied regardless of Target Toughness ;)

Occulto
16-03-2008, 23:39
2- If GK GM's force weapon is not used to be, what will GK GM look.? He is basically a normal BC with +1I and A and 3 Ws.

...and he can still ID any multi-wound model that's not immune to ID. They're more common than you think.


3- While other HQs are immunized to ID because of their special rules or wargear, GK GM is not. Majority of other HQs will strike FIRST because of better I. If GM is lucky to survive the first round of CC, he won't be in the second round while your wounded HQ will survive.

The GK GM is not immune to ID now. How the hell do these rumoured FW rules change how long he's going to survive?

If other HQs are going to strike first because of higher initiative, you're already screwed under the current rules. They hit before you do, so whether you can ID them or not, they're still going to kill you.


The current GK GM has 'some RESPECT' in 40k. After removing the effective of his FW, he is SCREWED big time. As long as your HQ has T5 or ID wargear protection, he will survive LONGER than GK GM.

If something has T5 but is not immune to ID, your GK GM will still be able to ID the same way he can now. Toughness has nothing to do with how FW work.

How many times does this have to be repeated?

Yes, wargear like adamantium mantles protect units from ID, but no, high toughness doesn't.


Therefore, how you can look at the 'proposed' FW rule and tell me that it is FAIR or <whatever 'term' you want to insert here> when GK doesn't have the same ID protection.?

No , it is not a minor change and it is really foolish to think so.

You've reached the point where nothing anyone says is going to change your mind, so how about I just play along so you feel vindicated.

"OMG GW screwed FW. Every FW is useless now. How are GK supposed to beat anyone. GW are dumb, incapable of writing a ruleset and we may as well all go play Warmachine."

Happy? :rolleyes:

40kdhs
17-03-2008, 18:41
Now, now. You can’t go basing an argument on current rules when it suits you and then drop in this kind of argument when it doesn’t. How do you know the Grey Knights Commander won’t get something to make him immune to ID in their new Codex? :rolleyes:


When GK HQs get it, i won't say anything. In the mean time, your SM HQs currently have access to it and your SM players also receive a new SM codex in the next few months. I have every good reason to talk about it because it is really unfair.



Well Nids are the only thing I can think of that could possibly cause ID at initiative. Anything else is striking before your GM. Please let me know if I’ve missed something :eyebrows:


Unfortunately, people like you will never understand the fact that 40k game is not about a S6 guy and a T6 model. If it is the only thing that you can think of, you need to look around and think more.





And a Space marine Chapter Master is just a Captain with a couple of stat buffs, what’s your point?


My simple point is SM HQs are equipped better than GK HQ. It's really pathetic to even think about it.

a GK GM will die if he was hit by a S8 weapon. A sm HQ will not die if he was hit by a S8 weapon.

I'm sure you know the differences. I'm still talking about T4 model with better wargears.



I have shown already that there are plenty of opportunities to utilise the ID power of the Force Weapon, foremost amongst those is killing Greater Daemons, you know, like the background material says they should be?


GKs only look good on paper. Trying to say anything differently is really deceiving.




So some units have something yours doesn’t, and you are complaining? Doesn’t that sound a little childish?


It is hardly childish.

When you have something in your army and i try to take something away from yours, it is not too bad, is it.?

When you don't have anything in your army and i try to take the ONLY thing that you have in your army, you end up having a crappy HQ.

see my point.? No.?



In a one-on-one comp maybe, but as has been said before, if you are sending in pretty much any character unsupported, you deserve what you get.


1- It is not 'may be'. It is FACT.! Your refusal in taking this fact into your discussion is really disturbing and misleading.

2- How long can you keep your HQ from engaging in 1 and 1 CC with another one.? only 1 round. YES.?

Here are some scenaros for you.

Scene 1: Let say that your HQ without bodyguard attack a GM with bodyguard unit. If i keep my GM away, it means that yours will kill some if not all GKTs. At this point, yours almost earns his point back because of death GKTs and a GK GM has to face your HQ. Yes.?

Scene 2: your HQ + his bodyguards attack my GM with bodyguards. Yours kills my GKT while mine kills yours and yours has to face to GM in the end because there is really no way to 'get away' from it.

Don't even mention about 'tactic' in your discussion because yours is really BAD.



Because firstly I am not a reactionary child throwing a tantrum because my one trick has changed slightly and am able to see beyond the points that support my bile-filled fury. Secondly, because the units need differences to make the armies unique. If everyone got ID protection, why not just remove the ID rule?



I enjoy discussing with somebody who knows what the hell they are talking. You have no idea what you are talking arbout. All you do is spin.

A person with a brain looks at this new rumor and knows that how sucky a GM will be.

WS5S6 is hardly a good deal. What is the point of having these stats if you are death.?

40kdhs
17-03-2008, 19:13
...and he can still ID any multi-wound model that's not immune to ID. They're more common than you think.


I am aware of that but these models are either too tough or unworthy to kill.
I'll never send a GM to kill a carny or chaos obligator unit. Do you know why.?

a unit of GKTs will do a better job than GM and i don't have to 'risk' my GM if he fails his psychic test.



The GK GM is not immune to ID now. How the hell do these rumoured FW rules change how long he's going to survive?


Of course, it does but you unfortunately don't see it.

Current rule: a well-equipped GK GM can kill a chaos abbadon and dies in the same turn. The same wounded GM can kill any HQ in 1 round of CC before taking any unnecessary damages.

a new rule: a well-equipped GK GM either is killed outright or takes all unnecessary damages.

Don't you see that a GK GM's life is really short.? If you take higher I unit into our discussion, you will see that GM's life is shorter.




If other HQs are going to strike first because of higher initiative, you're already screwed under the current rules. They hit before you do, so whether you can ID them or not, they're still going to kill you.


I know that. Thank you GW for doing a 'fantastic' job.



If something has T5 but is not immune to ID, your GK GM will still be able to ID the same way he can now. Toughness has nothing to do with how FW work.

How many times does this have to be repeated?


Apparently, it needs to be repeated until you understand the fact that 40k game is not about a GK GM vs T5 or T6 or any your favorite unit.

You need to look all HQs and compare them to GM. Don't pick and choose certain model to justify what you are saying .



You've reached the point where nothing anyone says is going to change your mind, so how about I just play along so you feel vindicated.


you don't change my mind because your arguement is not convincing enough.

Drek
17-03-2008, 19:42
HQs that Can Instakill a GKGM currently = Abaddon, Ork Warboss with Power Klaw, Ahriman, Typhus, SM Librarian, Chaos Lord with Pleasurebringer, Chaos Sorcerer
HQs the Can Instakill a GKGM in 5th = Abaddon, Ork Warboss with Power Klaw, Ahriman, Typhus, SM Librarian, Chaos Lord with Pleasurebringer, Chaos Sorcerer

HQs that a GKGM can Instakill now = Hive Tyrant, Broodlord, Abaddon, Ahriman, Typhus, Lucius, Chaos Lord, Chaos Sorcerer, Daemon Prince, Ork Warboss, Ork Mek, Warphead, Farseer, Autarch, Phoenix Lords, Archon, Dracon, Archite, Drachite, Necron Lord, Nightbringer, Ethereal, Shas-o, Shas-El, Commissar, IG Officers
HQs that a GKGM can Instakill in 5th = Ahriman, Typhus, Lucius, Chaos Lord, Chaos Sorcerer, Ork Warboss, Ork Mek, Warphead, Farseer, Autarch, Phoenix Lords, Archon, Dracon, Archite, Drachite, Necron Lord, Nightbringer, Ethereal, Shas-o, Shas-El, Commissar, IG Officers

There are a total of 4 HQs that the GKGM has lost the ability to instant kill.

Dyrnwyn
17-03-2008, 19:53
Apparently, it needs to be repeated until you understand the fact that 40k game is not about a GK GM vs T5 or T6 or any your favorite unit.

You need to look all HQs and compare them to GM. Don't pick and choose certain model to justify what you are saying.

Unfortunately, it appears that your last statement is what you are doing, not what people arguing against you are doing. The only specific unit you've used to support your position about the GKGM being ID'd is Abbadon. Everyone else has been posting lists of characters and HQ's unaffected by this change. You're the one saying that 'everyone' has ID protection and you were the one bringing up the T and S values initially.

Frankly, I'm glad that Force Weapons have been streamlined in this manner. Most people already assumed that Force Weapons caused ID and the look of confusion and ensuing argument (however brief it might be) when told that they don't was headache inducing. The GKGM hasn't been nerfed very hard at all and the only place it's taking a real hit is against Tyranids because of Synapse.

40kdhs
17-03-2008, 19:54
HQs that Can Instakill a GKGM currently = Abaddon, Ork Warboss with Power Klaw, Ahriman, Typhus, SM Librarian, Chaos Lord with Pleasurebringer, Chaos Sorcerer
HQs the Can Instakill a GKGM in 5th = Abaddon, Ork Warboss with Power Klaw, Ahriman, Typhus, SM Librarian, Chaos Lord with Pleasurebringer, Chaos Sorcerer

HQs that a GKGM can Instakill now = Hive Tyrant, Broodlord, Abaddon, Ahriman, Typhus, Lucius, Chaos Lord, Chaos Sorcerer, Daemon Prince, Ork Warboss, Ork Mek, Warphead, Farseer, Autarch, Phoenix Lords, Archon, Dracon, Archite, Drachite, Necron Lord, Nightbringer, Ethereal, Shas-o, Shas-El, Commissar, IG Officers
HQs that a GKGM can Instakill in 5th = Ahriman, Typhus, Lucius, Chaos Lord, Chaos Sorcerer, Ork Warboss, Ork Mek, Warphead, Farseer, Autarch, Phoenix Lords, Archon, Dracon, Archite, Drachite, Necron Lord, Nightbringer, Ethereal, Shas-o, Shas-El, Commissar, IG Officers

There are a total of 4 HQs that the GKGM has lost the ability to instant kill.
a normal GKT can kill any T3 characters. Tau's HQs are hardly a threat to GKs in CC.

Drek
17-03-2008, 20:30
a normal GKT can kill any T3 characters. Tau's HQs are hardly a threat to GKs in CC.
And? We were talking about GKGMs not GKTs. Regardless we are talking about differences between 4th and 5th edition. As I mentioned, there are 4 less HQ choices that can be instant killed in 5th then in 4th.

Marrak
17-03-2008, 20:36
So... you want it so that you can kill anything instantly that is a threat to you in CC?

I could repost the list for you, but really, there are a ton of characters and HQ out there that your GM is going to destroy with his Force Weapon. There's a much smaller list of ones he can't. If your GM is getting into combat with someone like Abbadon, or the Nightbringer and losing badly, well... lots of things lose to them badly. They're both extremely expensive, and both have extremely good and unique abilities. The GM, while certainly a dangerous character and worthy of a great deal of respect (btw, any nid player is still going to fear that Str 6 power weapon he's toting around, and a few other armies are going to scoot out of his way too), is foolish to approach either of those without his bodyguard or other support in assault. It'd be like an IG player charging his command squad into a Tyrant with all three guard; there's going to be a lot of death dealt to the IG.

The characters you are referring too are not meant to be taken down in a one on one confrontation. If a GK GM had ever taken down Abbadon in CC, I think he'd be mentioned as a special character himself. :)

BTW, if force weapons are going to suck this much, would you mind if the Tyranids were able to count their boneswords as force weapons again? They used to have that ability. :D

Mojaco
17-03-2008, 20:44
http://uk.games-workshop.com/news/errata/assets/40k/TyranidsFAQ.pdf
Check the 3rd question. You haven't been able to instakill Tyranids for a while now, as ID is handled here the same as the pdf 5th edition rule. If Chaos ever got an errata it would probably be ruled the same as the tyranid faq. Force weapon is instant death now, and will be in 5th. No change, only a streamline.

And imune to instant death SM characters are possible but rare. Few people invest a lot of points in something that isn't guaranteed to come into play.

Drek
17-03-2008, 20:52
I left the SM off my list because of the mantle.

As to the Tyranids, I have seen it played both ways. So, you lost the ability to kill 2 HQs instantly, instead of 4 with 5th edition. Both of which are in Chaos (Daemon Prince and Abaddon). You are saying that your GKGM Force Weapon is useless and a huge nerf because these two HQs are unkillable instantly in 5th edition?

TaintedSpam
17-03-2008, 20:56
This isn't about just Grey Knights. Consensus is that they're on the lower-end of the power scale (hell, it looks like they might not do that well against Daemons like they're supposed to!) Let's look at the big (rumored) picture here.

5th Edition, with most terrain granting 4+ cover, everything getting to "run", and flanks not safe due to scouting/infiltrating units, the game is being pushed to the center of the board. The game is going to be pushed into close-combat, right where MC's want to be. I really don't see a problem with Force Weapons getting something cool. (and I don't play Marines OR 'Nids.)

shin'keiro
17-03-2008, 21:07
That avatar is, while vulnerable to instant kill, isn't really vulnerable to a librarian. . . I mean, especially if you cast that psychic power that allows him to reroll saves. W/ weaponskill 10, high I, T6, and a 4+rerollable invuln. . . why don't more people play the avatar. . . ? It's kinda ******* good. . .

Because its slow to get across the table... but now with run im sure you'll see more avatars.:p

Imperialis_Dominatus
17-03-2008, 21:39
I really don't see a problem with Force Weapons getting something cool. (and I don't play Marines OR 'Nids.)

They're not really 'getting' anything, though. Much less anything cool.

Inquisitor_Eljer
17-03-2008, 21:50
Snipers use Bs again? Well, that makes sense, I like it. Sniper weapons are generally pretty hard to use - the benefit should be in hitting weak points (i.e. rending), not hitting virtually automatically.

As long as the give the Sniper Rifles a reasonable weapon Strength I'm fine with this.

"Here son, go shoot that tank / Avatar / Terminator, etc., with this BB-Gun"

Drek
17-03-2008, 23:40
As long as the give the Sniper Rifles a reasonable weapon Strength I'm fine with this.

Same wounding mechanic and add rending. But this is off topic, lets get back to force weapons and how useless they are ;p

noobzor
17-03-2008, 23:56
oooo, my pathfinders are going to love that shooting upgrade!

noobzor
18-03-2008, 00:03
HQs that a GKGM can Instakill in 5th = Ahriman, Typhus, Lucius, Chaos Lord, Chaos Sorcerer, Ork Warboss, Ork Mek, Warphead, Farseer, Autarch, Phoenix Lords, Archon, Dracon, Archite, Drachite, Necron Lord, Nightbringer, Ethereal, Shas-o, Shas-El, Commissar, IG Officers

I'd like to point out that you cannot instant-kill a phoenix lord.....he has the eternal warrior rule

so that's 5 things that don't become insta-killable in 5th ed :)
personally, I think force weapons are kinda garbage- you basically get a power weapon that instant kills at standard initiative! This change will make the game easier to understand, and make more logical sense
for example: phoenix lords live forever, so you shouldn't be able to instantly kill them by "sucking out" their soul, considering their fluff.

Klomster
18-03-2008, 00:39
Sure the grand master wouldn't suffer much if it wasn't for one thing.

A non kitted grand master is 150 pts kinda. 2+ 5+ save and his nfw and a storm bolter.

My grand master kitted with a nice psychic hood some psycannon bolts a 4+ invurnerable save, a master crafted nfw.
240 pts, an NON, i repeat NON ZERO NADA anti chaos wargear.

How much does the characters that you mention cost? The gk has no instant kill protection, well a crappy 5+ inv that can be upgraded to 4+ for 25 points.

The problem isn't only nfw nerf, it's pricing.

Oh, and the gm is T 4, so S 8= insta kill.


The thing is i'm getting tired of my 240 point "combat monster" (Normal HQ level) getting slaughtered by wimpy eldar aspect warriors at 10 points each, chaos teminators at 30 points each.

Everything is cheaper and has better rules than me, and with this little change, i will never again be able to get his points back.

Drek
18-03-2008, 01:05
Don't get me wrong, I don't think the GKGM is as effective a character as others. I just don't think it has anything to do with a possible change to force weapons and I don't think it has anything to do with ID immunity.

The Dude
18-03-2008, 01:09
Unfortunately, it appears that your last statement is what you are doing, not what people arguing against you are doing. The only specific unit you've used to support your position about the GKGM being ID'd is Abbadon. Everyone else has been posting lists of characters and HQ's unaffected by this change. You're the one saying that 'everyone' has ID protection and you were the one bringing up the T and S values initially.


So... you want it so that you can kill anything instantly that is a threat to you in CC?

I could repost the list for you, but really, there are a ton of characters and HQ out there that your GM is going to destroy with his Force Weapon. There's a much smaller list of ones he can't. If your GM is getting into combat with someone like Abbadon, or the Nightbringer and losing badly, well... lots of things lose to them badly. They're both extremely expensive, and both have extremely good and unique abilities. The GM, while certainly a dangerous character and worthy of a great deal of respect (btw, any nid player is still going to fear that Str 6 power weapon he's toting around, and a few other armies are going to scoot out of his way too), is foolish to approach either of those without his bodyguard or other support in assault. It'd be like an IG player charging his command squad into a Tyrant with all three guard; there's going to be a lot of death dealt to the IG.

The characters you are referring too are not meant to be taken down in a one on one confrontation. If a GK GM had ever taken down Abbadon in CC, I think he'd be mentioned as a special character himself. :)

I will re-post these in lieu of repeating the same points. What a silly and hysterical argument. I will concede that the points may be a bit screwy now, but this is not an uncommon occurrence under a new edition. Iím sorry you will have to wait for this to be rectified, I really am, but Iím sure if you put some thought into some new tactics rather than lament the loss of your old ones, you will find a way to work through it.

Dribble Joy
18-03-2008, 01:29
I've got a little lost....

Do all FW attacks cause ID? Or just one of them with a psychic test? Any psychic test required at all?

If he's running about with what's essentially a DCCW, then a libby is even more deadly than he is now.

Especially against my poor MA nobs.

40kdhs
18-03-2008, 02:00
HQs that Can Instakill a GKGM currently = Abaddon, Ork Warboss with Power Klaw, Ahriman, Typhus, SM Librarian, Chaos Lord with Pleasurebringer, Chaos Sorcerer
HQs the Can Instakill a GKGM in 5th = Abaddon, Ork Warboss with Power Klaw, Ahriman, Typhus, SM Librarian, Chaos Lord with Pleasurebringer, Chaos Sorcerer

HQs that a GKGM can Instakill now = Hive Tyrant, Broodlord, Abaddon, Ahriman, Typhus, Lucius, Chaos Lord, Chaos Sorcerer, Daemon Prince, Ork Warboss, Ork Mek, Warphead, Farseer, Autarch, Phoenix Lords, Archon, Dracon, Archite, Drachite, Necron Lord, Nightbringer, Ethereal, Shas-o, Shas-El, Commissar, IG Officers
HQs that a GKGM can Instakill in 5th = Ahriman, Typhus, Lucius, Chaos Lord, Chaos Sorcerer, Ork Warboss, Ork Mek, Warphead, Farseer, Autarch, Phoenix Lords, Archon, Dracon, Archite, Drachite, Necron Lord, Nightbringer, Ethereal, Shas-o, Shas-El, Commissar, IG Officers

There are a total of 4 HQs that the GKGM has lost the ability to instant kill.

I felt that my previous post didn't go into details. I need to point out a few things.

1- Farseer ,Necron lord , and Tau and IG HQs are NOT known for CC. Any S4 unit can kick their ars because of their low WS and I. In the case of necron lord, you have to kill his bodyguards before getting to him. With ld10 and teleporting ability, i doubt a GM or any HQ can kill him in CC. The only way you can kill him is RUN him down in the first round of CC.

2- Furthermore, any none immuned ID T3 characters are IDed by S6+ weapons by default. Therefore, you don't really need to use a FW to kill them after making your psychic test.

After looking at your 'list', i don't know some of your mentioned characters because i have never seen them used.

Even though you mentioned some relevant characters in your list, your lengthy list has no real purpose in our discussion except making it longer because you mentioned Farseer ,Necron lord , and Tau and IG HQs. If you take these characters off your list, your list is really short and the ones which you didn't mention are widely used.

I don't expect my GK to kill all HQs out there. Do you really think that you make me feel good when you tell me that my GM is still able to kill Tau and IG HQs.?

a GK GM has not lived and trained to fight Tau and IG HQs or any whimpy characters because anybody can do that. If another character is bad ars and well-equipped, why should GM not be.?

The Dude
18-03-2008, 02:02
I've got a little lost....

Do all FW attacks cause ID? Or just one of them with a psychic test? Any psychic test required at all?

Itís the same as it was before, but instead of ďremoving the modelĒ the model suffers ID.

Itís only really a subtle difference.

Bunnahabhain
18-03-2008, 02:10
Can I just say one thing here....

The daemon hunter list is, I'm sure it will be widely agreed upon, now Orks have been re-done, the least powerful list out there....

Monsterous creatures, especially the 'nid variety are widey acknowledged as somewhat overpowered.Eldar and Chaos are scarecly weak codices either...

The main complaint appears to be a specific charcter from the weakest codex isn't as good as he should be at taking down the toughest charcaters of the hardest codexs.

Welcome to the world of Fluff not matching gameplay. Live with it, until you get a new codex.

BrianGeneral
18-03-2008, 02:32
Itís the same as it was before, but instead of ďremoving the modelĒ the model suffers ID.

Itís only really a subtle difference.
I beg to differ. In 4th ID and FWK are totally 2 different aspects (as mentioned, FWK=/=ID), though the result are pretty similar.
Fluff-wise, of course FWK may not kill a named character, but then what's the balance issue for FW users? Why will I want to take a FW if I can't even kill a serious threat in CC outright, even just with a slight chance?

The Dude
18-03-2008, 03:20
I beg to differ. In 4th ID and FWK are totally 2 different aspects (as mentioned, FWK=/=ID), though the result are pretty similar.

And as already mentioned, the overall difference is a total of about five extra units in the entire game that can't be destroyed by a Force Weapon instantly.

I think that qualifies as subtle, don't you? :eyebrows:

cailus
18-03-2008, 04:13
I agree with the Dude.

I also don't think that slight changes to Force Weapons will make Librarians/Sorcerors any less popular as most people take these units for their other powers e.g. Warp Time or Winds of Chaos or whatever.

Also as it currently stands force weapons are not exactly a good weapon against anything with T6 as even if you can kill it outright you still need a 6 to wound.

Occulto
18-03-2008, 04:59
Apparently, it needs to be repeated until you understand the fact that 40k game is not about a GK GM vs T5 or T6 or any your favorite unit.

Then why did you keep bringing up T5?


You need to look all HQs and compare them to GM. Don't pick and choose certain model to justify what you are saying .

Now that's hilarious. You're justifying your argument with a fair share of "picking and choosing."


If you take these characters off your list, your list is really short and the ones which you didn't mention are widely used.


Now tell me with a straight face, that's not cherry picking examples?

Hell, your argument seems to be based almost exclusively around Abaddon and the adamantium mantle.

cailus
18-03-2008, 06:43
Hell, your argument seems to be based almost exclusively around Abaddon and the adamantium mantle.

Dunno about anyone else, but I've never seen anyone use Abaddon (except myself in 2nd edition) or the mantle (everyone seems to go for an Iron Halo).

The Dude
18-03-2008, 06:45
Dunno about anyone else, but I've never seen anyone use Abaddon (except myself in 2nd edition)

Maybe because he kept getting Instant Killed by Grey Knight Grand Masters :p

cailus
18-03-2008, 06:51
Maybe because he kept getting Instant Killed by Grey Knight Grand Masters :p

It actually used to be Mephiston. Mephiston used to bne the definition of uberhero in my opinion.

I remember in one 2nd edition game he killed both Kharne, Abaddon and a bunch of their lackies without breaking a sweat.

He did end up meeting his maker in the form of an assault cannon.

The Dude
18-03-2008, 07:04
He did end up meeting his maker in the form of an assault cannon.

That's how everyone met their maker in 2nd :eek:

divineauthority
18-03-2008, 08:12
I'm still going to be taking my libby with a force weapon regardless of the changes. Even with just instant death, it still means I can roll through my friends Chaos termies (the one time I do take the mantle due to powerfists).

As with any rule changes though, there are always going to be people who complain (it's just the number seems to be increasing with each update :p).

Khornies & milk
18-03-2008, 08:46
Regardless of what the final outcome of 5th Ed Force Weapon rules are going to be, I'm still going to field my GK GM in 2K and up, and we'll just have to deal with it regardless of how we feel about it....simple really.
As long as GW fix all the current rules inconsistencies, weak powers, near useless Wargear, over-priced Units and weapons in a new Codex, then I'm happy to wait.

Wrath
18-03-2008, 09:30
That's how everyone met their maker in 2nd :eek:

oh that just is plain not true.....Vortex grenade too. :p

Marrak
18-03-2008, 10:02
I felt that my previous post didn't go into details. I need to point out a few things.

1- Farseer, Necron Lord, and Tau and IG HQs are NOT known for CC. Any S4 unit can kick their ars because of their low WS and I. In the case of necron lord, you have to kill his bodyguards before getting to him. With ld10 and teleporting ability, i doubt a GM or any HQ can kill him in CC. The only way you can kill him is RUN him down in the first round of CC.

2- Furthermore, any none immuned ID T3 characters are IDed by S6+ weapons by default. Therefore, you don't really need to use a FW to kill them after making your psychic test.

After looking at your 'list', i don't know some of your mentioned characters because i have never seen them used.

Even though you mentioned some relevant characters in your list, your lengthy list has no real purpose in our discussion except making it longer because you mentioned Farseer ,Necron lord , and Tau and IG HQs. If you take these characters off your list, your list is really short and the ones which you didn't mention are widely used.

I don't expect my GK to kill all HQs out there. Do you really think that you make me feel good when you tell me that my GM is still able to kill Tau and IG HQs.?

a GK GM has not lived and trained to fight Tau and IG HQs or any whimpy characters because anybody can do that. If another character is bad ars and well-equipped, why should GM not be.?

Okay... let's take these points one at a time.

1: If you claim the Necron Lord isn't known for CC, then you clearly have been fortunate. Extreme example: I've seen a Necron Lord kill a Warhound Titan in CC. Their abilities and wargear can make them more than capable CC fighters. I'll give you that Farseers are not combat monsters, but Autarchs certainly are, not to mention what DE Archons can do. Also, no Eldar HQ has a poor I score and several have very respectable WS scores. Tau are the one army here that isn't known for spectacular CC from their characters. Also, if you're complaining about having to fight through a bodyguard, I really think this is a case of a pot calling the kettle black; you have GK terminators for a retinue. Hardly what anyone would call a pushover, and most would avoid that group like the plague.

2: The Necron Lord isn't T3. Neither is the Force Commander. Not sure what your point is here. What you're not IKing, you're probably wounding on better than a 4+ and ignoring any armor they have. Since we're bringing up the retinue example (per you mentioning the Necron Lord) your entire bodyguard will do the same thing as well.

So, to make this list valid, we have to remove all the HQs or units that are bad in CC? Guess what, it's still a really solid list which includes:
- most of the Ork HQs and characters (if not all of them)
- any Tyranid multi-wound critter that is outside Synapse (this actually does happen more often than you'd think)
- Almost every Imperial character and HQ (with the exception, again, of ONE upgrade)
- Almost every Chaos HQ and Character.

To bring up your last point, he is exceptionally well geared and very much a melee powerhouse. Most Special Characters wouldn't want to face him, and I can personally attest to the fact I keep my Hive Tyrant and Carnifexes far away from GK GMs; it's not the Force Weapon that scares me, it's the several Str 6 power weapon hits that do. He's more than capable of beating up far more than lone Tau Ethereals or un-equipped IG leaders.

Darth Rubi
18-03-2008, 11:12
And as already mentioned, the overall difference is a total of about five extra units in the entire game that can't be destroyed by a Force Weapon instantly.

I think that qualifies as subtle, don't you? :eyebrows:

Its not the number that matters, but the fact that they are

1) The very units that should (fluffwise) should be affected by the FW and

2) The units which no longer die to it are the already overpowered 'nid MCs

The fluff for why a force weapon kills with one hit is so fundamentally different from the usual ID, that it deserves to have a unique rule

Mandragola
18-03-2008, 11:24
I personally think that the basic GM at under 150 points is a very good buy. I think that the upgrades are overcosted but the guy himself is pretty good.

I don't ike this change though. GKs are meant to kill daemon princes and greater daemons, and now they will have an even harder time doing so. Even so the change is logical and it's always been a bit tricky to explain that "well he is killed instantly, but it isn't instant death".

Drek
18-03-2008, 12:24
Its not the number that matters, but the fact that they are

1) The very units that should (fluffwise) should be affected by the FW and

2) The units which no longer die to it are the already overpowered 'nid MCs

1. I will concede that GKs should be able to take down Daemon Princes easier. Maybe we should give them S6 Power Weapons and a Retinue in Terminator Armor with the same weapons. Or perhaps a Thunder Hammer that strikes at Initiative ;p As for Abaddon, no, he isn't a Daemon so I don't buy GK taking him down easier.

2) GKGMs can take down a fex with a FW as long as he isnt within synapse. The only thing they can't take is instantly is HTs, BL, Warriors and Thropes. With the changes to scoring units, etc. in game though, I think you may see less Big Bug lists as they just wont be able to win games.

Mandragola
18-03-2008, 13:15
Disagree on the big bugs. I think they will be an exceptionally good army in 5th.

The run rule and the new set up rules (no escalation especially) make nidzilla way more viable than it currently is. Nids can still get plenty of troops, because they have some very cheap ones.

At the moment the biggest problem with fexes (and it's a big problem) is having sniper fexes in cover shooting your tanks to pieces. These are actually taking a nerf with the new vehicle damage tables but CC fexes are going to be a lot better.

BrianGeneral
18-03-2008, 13:16
The fluff for why a force weapon kills with one hit is so fundamentally different from the usual ID, that it deserves to have a unique rule
This.

Generally speaking, I think the current FW rule will bring a balance against enemy powerful characters, but making them causing ID will just remove the ability to do so because of teh OPed characters/units nowadays.

Edit: ^Same here. I may start one after the current lists are done because they're just so fun to use.

Hellebore
18-03-2008, 13:24
Give me an instant death causing power weapon for my warlocks and farseers and I will be a happy man.

Seriously all this angst over force weapons and the eldar witchblade still sucks harder despite being 'advanced' and out and out better in both 1st and 2nd ed 40k.

Hellebore

Drek
18-03-2008, 13:25
Disagree on the big bugs. I think they will be an exceptionally good army in 5th.

The run rule and the new set up rules (no escalation especially) make nidzilla way more viable than it currently is. Nids can still get plenty of troops, because they have some very cheap ones.

At the moment the biggest problem with fexes (and it's a big problem) is having sniper fexes in cover shooting your tanks to pieces. These are actually taking a nerf with the new vehicle damage tables but CC fexes are going to be a lot better.

The problem I see with Big Bugs is the KP count is going to be huge. A standard big bug list of 2x HT, 6x Fexes and 2x Troops is 20 kill points. I know most armies will probably try and get down in the low teens (as Chaos, my highest KP list in 5th is around 14 points) so you are giving up some major points. Not to mention, Nids troops aren't that exceptional at holding objectives, especially when the entire army is plugging away at them. With VPs no longer being the focus of winning games and I assume tournaments will follow this change as well, the big bug list I think takes a big hit.

Mankov
18-03-2008, 14:13
I appreciate the streamlining, because with FW causing ID, there are less arguments over this "slays the opponent outright"-rule. I think they are still pretty powerful, because as mentioned before, they are a lot of HQ's and other multi-wound models out there who are not immune to ID. (For one example, I don't see the adamantine mantle too often - never seen them on a captain (prefers iron halo), and rarely on a chaplain.)

It would be highly beneficial if FW could be used in addition to a psychic power. However, this might be overpowered in combination with warp time / veil of time etc.

I really don't want to add anything about the GKGM discussion - i think everything has been said (and most of it multiple times :P).

Xurben
18-03-2008, 14:53
So, in the end.. The mighty GKGM cannot insta kill a demon prince, Abbadon, (Both blessed by gods far more powerful then anything the imperium can muster) or 'nid monsters. (Having no real soul, why would they)

Congrats, you are in the same boat as everyone else. I fail to see this as any problem with YOUR character who still has more str and better saves then most. The wargear is pricey, but you can't use that as a basis for comparison. As this mantle that you seem to think all marine players use is 35pts and then excludes the use of many other items. That mantle is a marine player essentially paying to override your lucky shot in CC.

Please stop comparing your GM to the Warmaster of Chaos, by any accounts pretty much nothing can stop him and he has the blessings from 4(!) gods backing him up. As for this "demon prince slaying" you speak of, take a demon hammer if that's what you want to be doing. I've never bought into this demon slayer thing, splatter the common demons all day but I don't think anyone should have it easy taking down a 10,000 year old demi god myself.

In the end, i think the problem is your codex, not the force weapon proposed change. Look how long dark eldar has managed to stay afloat though, you can't complain until your are the oldest codex :P

GG.

Warsmith Strader
18-03-2008, 15:32
HQs that Can Instakill a GKGM currently = Abaddon, Ork Warboss with Power Klaw, Ahriman, Typhus, SM Librarian, Chaos Lord with Pleasurebringer, Chaos Sorcerer
HQs the Can Instakill a GKGM in 5th = Abaddon, Ork Warboss with Power Klaw, Ahriman, Typhus, SM Librarian, Chaos Lord with Pleasurebringer, Chaos Sorcerer

HQs that a GKGM can Instakill now = Hive Tyrant, Broodlord, Abaddon, Ahriman, Typhus, Lucius, Chaos Lord, Chaos Sorcerer, Daemon Prince, Ork Warboss, Ork Mek, Warphead, Farseer, Autarch, Phoenix Lords, Archon, Dracon, Archite, Drachite, Necron Lord, Nightbringer, Ethereal, Shas-o, Shas-El, Commissar, IG Officers
HQs that a GKGM can Instakill in 5th = Ahriman, Typhus, Lucius, Chaos Lord, Chaos Sorcerer, Ork Warboss, Ork Mek, Warphead, Farseer, Autarch, Phoenix Lords, Archon, Dracon, Archite, Drachite, Necron Lord, Nightbringer, Ethereal, Shas-o, Shas-El, Commissar, IG Officers

There are a total of 4 HQs that the GKGM has lost the ability to instant kill.

Pleasurebringer? is that a new daemon weapon, but the only one I knew of was Blissgiver!:p:p

Wow, so a sorceror with a MoS and lash and jump pack is actually going to be better now.... were's my slaanesh army at?

5th edition Force weapons= Blissgivers effects without ld test!

As it currently stands- Bloodthirsters are immune to the effects of force weapons and are givin a 2+ inv save against it!(rumoured)

Joewrightgm
18-03-2008, 15:48
I like the "suffers Instant Death" instead of "Is slain instantly" (paraphrasing). Cleans up the wording and avoids confusion.

Also, it sounds like no matter what your toughness is, you suffer Instant Death. That's pretty huge unless the model in question has the Eternal Warrior rule (Avatar, Abaddon, Pheonix Lords, Etc.).

Plus, with the Codex Space Marines falling right on the heels of 5th ed, we don't know what kind of psychic monstrosity they may/may not become.

Drek
18-03-2008, 16:02
Pleasurebringer? is that a new daemon weapon, but the only one I knew of was Blissgiver!:p:p

As it currently stands- Bloodthirsters are immune to the effects of force weapons and are givin a 2+ inv save against it!(rumoured)

Yeah, my mistake. Was going from memory rather then with the codex in hand. That stands to reason with the BT as Kharn negates the effects of Force Weapons and he is mortal.

BrianGeneral
18-03-2008, 16:23
Also, it sounds like no matter what your toughness is, you suffer Instant Death. That's pretty huge unless the model in question has the Eternal Warrior rule (Avatar, Abaddon, Pheonix Lords, Etc.).
Present FWK has teh roughly same effect: One wound on target, failed save, Psychic Test, boom.
The main complaint about it is probably the limitness of such paraphasing. In teh past you can kill anyone you come across unless specified ignoring FWKs, but now you can't kill anyone who're immune to ID. A big deal? To some players not (mostly for fluff), to some yes (mostly on gameplay/balance).
At present I'm not playing with any FW at hand but I'm pretty satisfied with the current FW rule, teh change is pretty much unnecessary.

40kdhs
18-03-2008, 18:16
And as already mentioned, the overall difference is a total of about five extra units in the entire game that can't be destroyed by a Force Weapon instantly.

I think that qualifies as subtle, don't you? :eyebrows:

Do you honestly think that what you are saying here will comfort GK players.? It's outrage. How do you feel if GW takes away your 3 bad ars characters from your codex.?

While everybody is about to have their new codex, not only do DH players have to wait for their turn, but their GM's weapon effectiveness is also reduced. Wow, holy cow.!

It's only 5 but nobody really wants other to know the other characters are better than GK GM. After all, they are special characters while GM is a normal 'HQ'.

40kdhs
18-03-2008, 18:24
Now tell me with a straight face, that's not cherry picking examples?


Do you honestly believe that IG and Tau characters are serious threats to any unit in CC.?

if not, why did you include them in your list.? Because you wanted to make your list longer.?

Come on, now.!



Then why did you keep bringing up T5?
Hell, your argument seems to be based almost exclusively around Abaddon and the adamantium mantle.

I have been talking about T4 model with adamantium mantle, T5,T6, and T8 models.
a T4 model with adamantium mantle will live longer than GM and he probably kill GM in CC because of higher I.
Abaddon will eat GM for breakfast in 5th edition.

40kdhs
18-03-2008, 18:37
1: If you claim the Necron Lord isn't known for CC, then you clearly have been fortunate. Extreme example: I've seen a Necron Lord kill a Warhound Titan in CC. Their abilities and wargear can make them more than capable CC fighters.


When you see a necron lord, where do you see him.? does he surround by necron warriors.? How the hell could he kill a warhound titan in CC when his S is only 4.?



Autarchs certainly are,


is it the one who requires to take 3D6 for your psychic power test.?

not to mention what DE Archons can do.

you are talking about a character with 2+ invul save.?


Also, if you're complaining about having to fight through a bodyguard


I didn't complain about having to fight their bodyguards. I used the bodyguard to say that it's hard to kill a necron lord with a lot of necron warriors in CC.



- any Tyranid multi-wound critter that is outside Synapse (this actually does happen more often than you'd think)


if your nid unit doesn't have 'fleet to foot', it is hardly outside of synapse range.

40kdhs
18-03-2008, 18:42
1. I will concede that GKs should be able to take down Daemon Princes easier. Maybe we should give them S6 Power Weapons and a Retinue in Terminator Armor with the same weapons. Or perhaps a Thunder Hammer that strikes at Initiative ;p As for Abaddon, no, he isn't a Daemon so I don't buy GK taking him down easier.



1-GKs have never had easy time fighting chaos.
2- With the new FW rule, nobody in GK can take on Abaddon.
3- Without God's blessing, is abaddon still good.?

Drek
18-03-2008, 18:44
a T4 model with adamantium mantle will live longer than GM and he probably kill GM in CC because of higher I.
Abaddon will eat GM for breakfast in 5th edition.

What T4 model has higher initiative then 5 and an Admantium Mantle?

Abaddon is 275 POINTS! He SHOULD kill your GKGM. Incidentally, he will kill your GKGM in 4th edition with or without your Force Weapon.

Mojaco
18-03-2008, 18:53
Stop complaining about abaddon please. If you can't deal with him (or any character for that matter), that is your problem. I've never heard anyone going on about him so much, so I'm affraid it's a problem only you have.

The FW rule is fine in the new edition, and can now be boosted by other psychic powers in the same turn. Grey Knights never had an easy time and this tiny little streamline won't make that any worse. GKs just need a new codex, simple. But FWs aren't the problem.

Xurben
18-03-2008, 18:56
Again, stop complaining that you cant kill Abbadon in CC with a normal HQ unit. He's unique, he's 275pts, and he's THE warmaster of Chaos, a clone of Horus, and has the backing of all 4 greater chaos powers.

I don't think there is any single hq that can go toe to toe with him. Something has to be the best, currently he's it.

I don't understand at all this constant complaint about initiative, you have the standard character initiative of 5. Only eldar and dark eldar will be going first, and I don't think any of them can insta kill you before you get your precious FW attack. Please tell me again how making force weapons use the same rule as other things currently in game nerfs grey knights more then anyone else? They were not ever the kings of insta kill and they never will be.

It isn't like this change will have any affect on 95% of the games you play anyhow. At this point your options are to adapt or quit. The choice is yours, although all the stink being made over rules that are not yet official amazes me.

lol.

40kdhs
18-03-2008, 19:26
So, in the end.. The mighty GKGM cannot insta kill a demon prince, Abbadon, (Both blessed by gods far more powerful then anything the imperium can muster) or 'nid monsters. (Having no real soul, why would they)

Congrats, you are in the same boat as everyone else. I fail to see this as any problem with YOUR character who still has more str and better saves then most. The wargear is pricey, but you can't use that as a basis for comparison. As this mantle that you seem to think all marine players use is 35pts and then excludes the use of many other items. That mantle is a marine player essentially paying to override your lucky shot in CC.

In the end, i think the problem is your codex, not the force weapon proposed change. Look how long dark eldar has managed to stay afloat though, you can't complain until your are the oldest codex :P



we are not in the same boat. Our discussion has nothing to do with how many points this item costs ,who is blessed by whom, and why my GM should kick everybody ars. For the record, i have never SAID that my GM should kill every character out there.

Furthermore, my discussion is not about GK GM vs another character even though some of you try to do it so that you mislead other people into thinking that this new change has no effect whatsover to GM. It is really deceiving.

My whole point is

a GK GM doesn't have any 'blessing' from anybody or wargear to protect him from being IDed. All he currently has is a crappy codex and his NFW effectiveness is going to be reduced so that other 'blessed' characters can live.

Look at above paragraph and tell me that you don't see something WRONG.! What else does GW need to do to screw up a crappy codex in the name of 'balance'.?


I have every good reason to complain and i don't need to wait to see my oldest codex to complain. It doesn't effect you because DH codex is not your 'favorite' but it is mine.

kokujin_atsuhara
18-03-2008, 20:09
Look at above paragraph and tell me that you don't see something WRONG.! What else does GW need to do to screw up a crappy codex in the name of 'balance'.?


I have the impression that this rule is not intended for screw your codex.

I think that it's intended to clarify some rules that are not everytime clear.
I have a friend that lost a final in the tournament when he throws his HT against a FW...and the organization rules that PW inflicts ID...even if it's not said like that.

Mojaco
18-03-2008, 20:32
Uhm.. either the organization was aware of the Tyranid FAQ where it is said that it treats FW as any ID (so ignore it) and they should've let the HT live, or they weren't aware and the FW didn't cause ID but simply 'remove from table' and they'd be right. But they can't rule that it causes ID and then claim the HT needs to be removed. Idiots.

"a GK GM doesn't have any 'blessing' from anybody or wargear to protect him from being IDed. All he currently has is a crappy codex and his NFW effectiveness is going to be reduced so that other 'blessed' characters can live."
Blessed means diddly squad. You have a tiny tiny amount of lost effectiveness. Do you play chaos that often? Or do you just like to act dramatic?

TITAN
18-03-2008, 20:47
yea pretty much I'm going to hate TMC's... Yea sure, Force Weapons, using the most powerful psykers the imperium has to offer, can't sever the Hivemind's connections to the MC... Yea sure Tyranid MC's can crawl back out of the warp after rolling a 6 with Wraithcannons, and D-Cannons... GW can really bother me...

What you aren't acknowledging is that if you kill Tyranid Synapse the whole army falls apart. It's not balanced for a Jumpacking Ld10 Libby with a familiar to hop around the battlefield one-shotting Tyrants and Zoanthropes.

cailus
18-03-2008, 22:59
Give me an instant death causing power weapon for my warlocks and farseers and I will be a happy man.

Seriously all this angst over force weapons and the eldar witchblade still sucks harder despite being 'advanced' and out and out better in both 1st and 2nd ed 40k.

Hellebore

Shuriken Catapults also used to be a lot nastier in 2nd ed. too.

I think there was a bit of Eldar hate come 3rd edition!

The Dude
18-03-2008, 23:35
Do you honestly think that what you are saying here will comfort GK players.? It's outrage. How do you feel if GW takes away your 3 bad ars characters from your codex.?

What 3 “bad ars” charaters would that be? What Codex would that be, for that matter?

I play primarily Space Marines, and have NEVER taken the Mantle. I favour the Iron Halo. Hell, I've never taken a Special Character. I prefer to make up my own.


Do you honestly believe that IG and Tau characters are serious threats to any unit in CC.?

if not, why did you include them in your list.? Because you wanted to make your list longer.?

Come on, now.!

Why do they need to be a serious threat in CC to be included? They are still viable targets for the ID affect of Force Weapons. You are simply focusing on a severly limited use of the weapon to prove a point.


I have been talking about T4 model with adamantium mantle, T5,T6, and T8 models.
a T4 model with adamantium mantle will live longer than GM and he probably kill GM in CC because of higher I.

Oh. I must have missed that entry in my Marine Codex that says my Chapter Master has I6 :rolleyes:


Abaddon will eat GM for breakfast in 5th edition.

Good. I hope he’s tasty and full of vitamins :D


if your nid unit doesn't have 'fleet to foot', it is hardly outside of synapse range.

All infantry and MCs will be able to run in 5th edition. Once again, don’t look at rules in isolation to prove your point. Try to look at the big picture.


2- With the new FW rule, nobody in GK can take on Abaddon.

You know that thing sticking off the other arm of your Grey Knights? Try using that every now and then :rolleyes:


My whole point is

a GK GM doesn't have any 'blessing' from anybody or wargear to protect him from being IDed. All he currently has is a crappy codex and his NFW effectiveness is going to be reduced so that other 'blessed' characters can live.

Look at above paragraph and tell me that you don't see something WRONG.! What else does GW need to do to screw up a crappy codex in the name of 'balance'.?


I don’t see something wrong at all. The Blood Angels Codex doesn’t have an option for protection from ID. How is it that the oldest living Chapter Master doesn’t have protection from ID?

Hell, Imperial Guard don’t get the option for Jump-Jetting battlesuits and Tau don’t get the option for Montrous Creatures. Guess what. That is what makes them DIFFERENT from each other.

If you want to play a game where everyone has the same options, look for a copy of Rogue Trader.

Marrak
18-03-2008, 23:48
When you see a necron lord, where do you see him.? does he surround by necron warriors.? How the hell could he kill a warhound titan in CC when his S is only 4.?



is it the one who requires to take 3D6 for your psychic power test.?

you are talking about a character with 2+ invul save.?



I didn't complain about having to fight their bodyguards. I used the bodyguard to say that it's hard to kill a necron lord with a lot of necron warriors in CC.



if your nid unit doesn't have 'fleet to foot', it is hardly outside of synapse range.

Not sure what it's called, but one of the weapons the Necron Lord has lets him damage vehicles. Might be the warscythe but I assure you it did happen. It helped that he kept making his WBB rolls. :) Also, I did mention this was an extreme example.

The Farseer does the 3d6 psychic test, not the Autarch.

The Archon loses that 2+ save on the first failed save. With a lot of shots that isn't hard to do.

It's also hard to kill the GK GM in CC if he's surrounded by GK Terminators. All of which are far more lethal in CC than the Necron Warriors.

And synapse is only 12". Unless I'm running my MCs right next to each other as a big unit (a slow, cumbersome, easily-avoided unit) then yes, it can and does happens, especially if one charges something.

As a final point to your last few posts, specifically regarding the IG and Tau Commanders... they offer significant benefits besides CC. The Tau commander offers a large amount of firepower and mobility, and the IG HQ offers much needed leadership support for the army. They don't need to be dangerous in CC to be effective at what they do.

Occulto
19-03-2008, 00:02
Do you honestly believe that IG and Tau characters are serious threats to any unit in CC.?

Yes, that O'Shovah's a real pushover ain't he?


if not, why did you include them in your list.? Because you wanted to make your list longer.?

Come on, now.!

Erm... OK, are we talking about Force Weapons in general? Or are we sticking to the single example of the GK GM?

Because there's a little option called a IG sanctioned psyker who's capable of taking a FW too. IIRC he's only S3, so he's not instant killing anything without a FW.


I have been talking about T4 model with adamantium mantle, T5,T6, and T8 models.
a T4 model with adamantium mantle will live longer than GM and he probably kill GM in CC because of higher I.

Yeah, and I don't know why you keep bringing up T5, T6 and T8 models considering their toughness has absolutely nothing to do with how FW work.

At least your GK GM can wound a T8 model - my lowly Librarian (who no longer has access to the adamantium mantle) can't touch one. In fact with the DA codex, the only character to be immune to ID is Sammael - and that's only if you take the jetbike option (which means he's no longer an IC).

Anyway, if Chaos characters with higher initiative bug you so much, take Sacred Incense.


Abaddon will eat GM for breakfast in 5th edition.

He'll eat anything for breakfast. At 275 points a pop, I'd be pretty annoyed if he couldn't.

Anyway, how do you know that the SM are going to keep their adamantium mantle in 5th ed? A new SM codex tends to coincide with a new edition. You seem quite happy to keep ranting about one rumoured change in 5th ed without considering other things that might happen.

noobzor
19-03-2008, 00:13
The thing is i'm getting tired of my 240 point "combat monster" (Normal HQ level) getting slaughtered by wimpy eldar aspect warriors at 10 points each, chaos teminators at 30 points each.

I'd like to point out that the cheapest aspect warrior costs 12 points (dire avengers), and the chance that they will successfully wound a GK is incredibly small. The unit with the best chance is the 16 points each banshees, who still only wound on a 5+...

40kdhs
19-03-2008, 18:14
You have a tiny tiny amount of lost effectiveness.

'tiny amount of lost effectiveness'.? Are you saying it from a DH player's point of view.?



Do you play chaos that often?

have you not known that chaos army is popular.? I play against a chaos army every week.

40kdhs
19-03-2008, 18:29
Why do they need to be a serious threat in CC to be included? They are still viable targets for the ID affect of Force Weapons. You are simply focusing on a severly limited use of the weapon to prove a point.


Because their I is low and weapon is not a PW. Your I4S4 models can handle them easily.




Oh. I must have missed that entry in my Marine Codex that says my Chapter Master has I6 :rolleyes:


furious charge is NOT nice.?



Good. I hope he’s tasty and full of vitamins :D


my GM faces Abbadon many times. Yes, Abbadon even acknowledges GM courage when facing him even though he is not 'blessed' by GW.



All infantry and MCs will be able to run in 5th edition. Once again, don’t look at rules in isolation to prove your point. Try to look at the big picture.


You forget 2 things: everybody will benefit above rules and nobody has a S6 FW except GK GM. Do you see our specialty.?



You know that thing sticking off the other arm of your Grey Knights? Try using that every now and then :rolleyes:


your comments come from a SM player's perspective. Don't you consider yourself lucky when your last guy in a unit gives you 1/2 of total points.?


Do you wonder why majority of units have normal saves when GKs shoot and GKs have ZERO save or COVER save when everybody shoots at them.?



If you want to play a game where everyone has the same options, look for a copy of Rogue Trader.

i don't want to play the same army as everybody does. It was the main reason I chose DH.

40kdhs
19-03-2008, 18:38
Yes, that O'Shovah's a real pushover ain't he?


your units still have normal saves.



Because there's a little option called a IG sanctioned psyker who's capable of taking a FW too. IIRC he's only S3, so he's not instant killing anything without a FW.


his I is 5.?



Yeah, and I don't know why you keep bringing up T5, T6 and T8 models considering their toughness has absolutely nothing to do with how FW work.


in order for FW to work, the model has to take a wound. Yes.? my GM will need to roll a 6 to wound a T8 model and so on.



Anyway, if Chaos characters with higher initiative bug you so much, take Sacred Incense.


I always take it when facing chaos army. It was the reason my GM with this item can kill Abbadon in CC. Of course, he also dies in return.



Anyway, how do you know that the SM are going to keep their adamantium mantle in 5th ed? A new SM codex tends to coincide with a new edition. You seem quite happy to keep ranting about one rumoured change in 5th ed without considering other things that might happen.

SM is GW's favorite army. Do you honestly think that GW will hurt their main 'base'.?

come on.!

Xurben
19-03-2008, 19:57
your units still have normal saves.


And yours don't?

Your arguement has gone WAY off from force weapons into "My army isn't the best at everything so I should get a handicap rule"


When has Abbadon EVER shown any respect for anything imperial? (As to your GK comment)

You should just stop now, the longer this goes on with everyone disproving you or arguing counter points the more and more you stray away from the concern posted in the beginning.

And just as a note, your precious army is the only one with a 24'' effective weapons range while moving. Try using that and strategy instead of focusing on 1 gimmicky rule so much. Mass fire kills more then anything else in this game, with the fewest losses at the same time. Your army excels at laying down mass fire and not getting shot in return.

I know from playing them in tournaments, the codex might be old but it's hardly underpowered.

40kdhs
19-03-2008, 20:33
And yours don't?

The funny thing is you threw in a Tau's special character in the list and reminded everybody about his pushover after I mentioned that tau's characters are not known for CC.

Do you believe that his 'pushover' is going to be effective against a terminator unit or 3+ armor save unit.?

Come on.!



Your arguement has gone WAY off from force weapons into "My army isn't the best at everything so I should get a handicap rule"


Do i suppose to be happy to see GK GM's FW effective reduced.?




When has Abbadon EVER shown any respect for anything imperial? (As to your GK comment)


It's sarcasm if you didn't pay attention.!

Tell me how a GK GM is going to deal with a model such as Abbadon when his weapon is not as effective as it was.? Of course, it is only 1 model or this or that and it is your ONLY reason to JUSTIFY whatever you are saying.

Your army is not GK, is it.? this FW new rule is going to change your army much, isn't it.? It does in my army which is NOT as good as yours. Therefore, any change in this army is going to hurt at this point.

Are you really serious when you tell me that.?



You should just stop now, the longer this goes on with everyone disproving you or arguing counter points the more and more you stray away from the concern posted in the beginning.

And just as a note, your precious army is the only one with a 24'' effective weapons range while moving. Try using that and strategy instead of focusing on 1 gimmicky rule so much. Mass fire kills more then anything else in this game, with the fewest losses at the same time. Your army excels at laying down mass fire and not getting shot in return.

I know from playing them in tournaments, the codex might be old but it's hardly underpowered.

When you failed to make your case about this new rule, you tell me how I should play GKs.? For the record, I have played pure GKs for 3+ years.

forgive my arrogant but why do i need to take your advise how to play GKs when i have played them for a long time.?

Dyrnwyn
19-03-2008, 20:38
your units still have normal saves.
Not against O'Shovah you don't. He's the Special Character with the battlesuit sized sword. He hits like a Monstrous Creature in CC, and as a matter of fact, he's I5. Mostro was being sarcastic about his being a pushover.

Look, I understand you don't like that your character has lost some effectiveness under the new rules. That's fine. However, this is not a game shattering change. A couple things you could kill before are safe under the new rules. However the change is not an enormous immense change that's going to screw you in every game. You're really overreacting to a minor change. Remember, you've still got a third ed. dex, so your army is pretty high on the priority list for a new codex.

Marrak
19-03-2008, 21:05
The funny thing is you threw in a Tau's special character in the list and reminded everybody about his pushover after I mentioned that tau's characters are not known for CC.

Do you believe that his 'pushover' is going to be effective against a terminator unit or 3+ armor save unit.?

Come on.!



Do i suppose to be happy to see GK GM's FW effective reduced.?




It's sarcasm if you didn't pay attention.!

Tell me how a GK GM is going to deal with a model such as Abbadon when his weapon is not as effective as it was.? Of course, it is only 1 model or this or that and it is your ONLY reason to JUSTIFY whatever you are saying.

Your army is not GK, is it.? this FW new rule is going to change your army much, isn't it.? It does in my army which is NOT as good as yours. Therefore, any change in this army is going to hurt at this point.

Are you really serious when you tell me that.?



When you failed to make your case about this new rule, you tell me how I should play GKs.? For the record, I have played pure GKs for 3+ years.

forgive my arrogant but why do i need to take your advise how to play GKs when i have played them for a long time.?

For the love of...

Alright, lemme go over a couple points.

First off, to your comment about how other armies get their saves when GKs shoot at them, while GKs loose their armor from the return fire. Exactly which army gets to equip their entire list with AP 2-3 weapons, that also ignore invul saves? Several armies get no saves whatsoever against your bolters, and your psi-cannons and incinerators ignore any troops that would have invul saves. Now if you're talking about specific units in an army shooting at your terminators, then all you're doing is complaining that your opponent is using some decent strategy to fire whatever will take down your marines and terminators with the most efficiency, which isn't a valid complaint for any edition; there's no rule that says people have to shoot their guns at the units you want them to. Also, as noted, this is getting way off base of the original complaint about Force Weapons.

Now then, Farsight (O'Shovah for those who don't know his other name) is a paradox of his own Codex: a Tau who doesn't totally suck at CC. To take him requires you to miss out on fielding several Tau units and severely limits many others. Is he going to slaughter a GK terminator squad? Probably not, you're still going to overwhelm him, since he's the only one in the entire army who gets a power weapon.

As to how to handle Abbadon, my first suggestion would be to soften him at range. Do you only use one unit to deal with a single opponent's unit, to the exlusion of others that could assist? I'm sure with enough shooting you'll see a wound or two drop off Abbadon before your GM ever has to face him. If you're charging your GM into Abbadon directly with no supporting fire at all, then you're basically running into a fight with the odds stacked remarkably against you, even in 4th ed. I've seen some players just avoid him altogether and rain down firepower on his head, something your army is capable of doing. Even with the inclusion of running in 5th, it's important to remember that unless they have fleet, they cannot charge when they run. Some pretty smart tactics could have Abbadon getting shot to pieces while you dance any units close to him away from danger, while the rest of your army picks him off one wound at a time.

If you have been basing your entire army effectiveness on one single weapon that your GM has, then even though I am unfamiliar with the GK list overall, I have to say you're either ignoring or underestimating the effectiveness of over half your army. No army can rely solely on their 1-2 HQ choices to take on every single challenge or character out there. I've buried Librarians with FWs under a mass of Genestealers to make sure that the FW didn't get used against my MCs, and usually end up killing them in a turn or two. I've seen Abbadon shot to death by Guardian squads and looking rather foolish as he never once reached melee. I've also had my 250 pt CC fex sit in combat with conscripts for 6 turns, much to the relief of the tanks sitting behind them.

And I've seen your GK GM more than earn his keep in a number of situations (we actually have 2-3 GK armies at the store I play at), and not solely because of his FW. He's a good choice, and rock solid. But continuing to base your complaint solely upon the most expensive character in the Chaos codex, you're not going to find many supporters.

=Angel=
19-03-2008, 22:22
I think the main problem here is heroics- Grey Knight captains are supposed to kill huge stuff.

At the climax of the 1st battle of Armageddon, A Grey knight commander used his force weapon to banish Angron, Daemon Primarch of the World Eaters !!!11eleven! to the warp- at the cost of his own soul.

If Grey knights can't insta-gib Blood thirsters and Daemon princes anymore, then their role will drastically change.

Kinda like when the assault cannon turned into a really reliable anti-vehicle device... except it remained a really reliable anti infantry weapon. So like that except worse.


Note that normal librarians don't have a huge chance of force killing a daemon prince, but the fact that they can leads to heroic charges and last second gambits.

Which leads to fun...

which is the point of the game as i see it.

linvus232
19-03-2008, 22:28
First off, to your comment about how other armies get their saves when GKs shoot at them, while GKs loose their armor from the return fire. Exactly which army gets to equip their entire list with AP 2-3 weapons, that also ignore invul saves? Several armies get no saves whatsoever against your bolters, and your psi-cannons and incinerators ignore any troops that would have invul saves. Now if you're talking about specific units in an army shooting at your terminators, then all you're doing is complaining that your opponent is using some decent strategy to fire whatever will take down your marines and terminators with the most efficiency, which isn't a valid complaint for any edition; there's no rule that says people have to shoot their guns at the units you want them to. Also, as noted, this is getting way off base of the original complaint about Force Weapons.

As to how to handle Abbadon, my first suggestion would be to soften him at range. Do you only use one unit to deal with a single opponent's unit, to the exlusion of others that could assist?

And I've seen your GK GM more than earn his keep in a number of situations (we actually have 2-3 GK armies at the store I play at), and not solely because of his FW. He's a good choice, and rock solid. But continuing to base your complaint solely upon the most expensive character in the Chaos codex, you're not going to find many supporters.

I must (as a DH and SM player) take issue with some of the above. It is very widely accepted that DH are the most underpowered Codex in the entire of 'mainstream' 40k. The points costs alone for what you get are ridiculous- Your assertion that 'large numbers of units have their saves ignored by GK firepower' is true, but chances are that, assuming you roll on the odds all-game, a standard unit of PAGK will not make its points back against many of these 'weaker' units even if they get to shoot at them all game (and don't get shot themselves, or run out of targets, or whatever). Consider a unit of 10 PAGK shooting at Ork Boyz for a 6 turn game. On average, a turn, you get 6 or 7 kills, or approx. 40pts return. In a 6-turn game that is 240pts, from a (your only) Troops unit costing well over 250, fighting on its own terms against a unit it is supposed to be strong against, and that isn't even factoring in cover or being assaulted.


As for Terminators and Psycannons, they can ignore invulnerable saves, yes, but I think I can count on one hand the units in common use that are vulnerable to Psycannons since they ignore Invulnerable saves. Admittedly, if you are putting your Terminators in the line of fire of weapons to which they are vulnerable you deserve to get them shot down and the amount of return fire a unit of TAGK with 3 Psycannons can throw out is quite something. But this is all at the limits of what people can do with GK (a 3-Psycannon squad is something of an exploit, and only one per army), and while they are relatively durable if used well, this has come only from a couple of years of heavy defeats and experience. It is, if you like, the GK's answer to Holo-Falcon Harlequins of the Eldar.


On the matter of the Grand Master, I never use him anyway. He is worryingly frail for his points cost and IC status, and to tool him up so his Force Weapon can actually kill anything requires him to cost upwards of 200pts, and there is not a character in the game costing more than that that cannot kill him on a regular basis, if not before he hits you, then at the same time. The new Force Weapon rules will simply put beyond doubt exactly what many have said for a while regarding the SM Captain on Speed.


Your comments on Abaddon were also somewhat...confusing. Pumping Psycannon shots will drop off one or two of his Terminator Bodyguard, or he's an independent character so you can't shoot him. You might fire your (between 0 and 6, maximum) Lascannons at them, but then you're not firing at the vehicles you should be with such limited AV firepower. Having seen Guardians kill Abaddon with shooting doesn't make it anything other than some truly atrocious luck on the part of the Chaos player, and if you charge your Carnifex into a tarpit unit then I'm afraid you were outmaneuvered and beaten fair and square, because that's exactly what should happen if a 250pt CC carni charges 50 Conscripts.

Alun
19-03-2008, 23:04
If you think a GKGM is getting nerfed - pity poor Mephiston - not even an invulnerable save!! :cries: Then again, he'd still poon the GKGM regardles :evilgrin:

Stezerok
19-03-2008, 23:28
What you aren't acknowledging is that if you kill Tyranid Synapse the whole army falls apart. It's not balanced for a Jumpacking Ld10 Libby with a familiar to hop around the battlefield one-shotting Tyrants and Zoanthropes.

ok well, despite the fact that this doesn't actually address the particular aspect that I was speaking to, I will also say that I do note this, and I've found it to be untrue. Most of the time when I targeted Synapse only either of two things happened. A. His non-Synapse were just too fast and hit my lines before Synapse mattered... and B. even when they were just lurking, the side-affects were not so bad as to completely break his army, everything was still just as deadly. Now maybe what my opponent told me happens for breaking synapse was untrue, or your statement is over-exaggerated, I can't say.

As to the rest of this, I have to say, 40kdhs, you need to just cool it. The nerf to Force Weapons is annoying, and definitely hinders the GM, but it won't destroy Grey Knights. I will admit many of the other people talking here seem to overestimate the GK's prowess, especially considering the shooting (yes we do have the most mobile anti-infantry shooting in the game, but our small model count keeps that in check really well, and don't even get us started on AT...) but this is all regardless of the Force Weapon problem, and is really just extraneous.

In the end, I think that =Angel= spoke the best about GK characters, and the game in general. The fact is that the only real incentive for taking the GK GM over the BC is for the simple fact that we could kill TMC's, MC's, Daemon Princes, and the like. That bit of reliability was helpful for an army that lacks strength 7-9 weapons with decent AP. This will change that part of it, and so in the end it will be just one less reason to take the GM who is still overpriced to begin with. But like =Angel= said, the fact that we can no longer do cool things, like having the GK GM charge a Daemon Prince in the heat of battle and use his mind to slay him, just simple reduces the cool factor in a lot of ways.

Can Grey Knights' survive this change? Absolutely.
Is the change unnecessary, and undeniably is a nerf? Yea.
Does this make me hate either 5th, or my Grey Knights who have 5th to look forward to? Definitely not.


Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

The Dude
20-03-2008, 00:39
Because their I is low and weapon is not a PW. Your I4S4 models can handle them easily.

This doesn't answer my question. Essentially you are demanding your GKGM become at least on par with every other HQ out there. Here’s a tip, if you can’t kill it in CC, DON’T FREAKING TRY!


furious charge is NOT nice.?

That serves you right for allowing yourself to be charged :rolleyes:


You forget 2 things: everybody will benefit above rules and nobody has a S6 FW except GK GM. Do you see our specialty.?

Yes I do see, but I think you fail to. You have just said you get something NOBODY ELSE DOES, and still you complain? :wtf:


your comments come from a SM player's perspective. Don't you consider yourself lucky when your last guy in a unit gives you 1/2 of total points.?

I really have no idea what this means. I think you’re pulling stuff out of your **** now.


Do you wonder why majority of units have normal saves when GKs shoot and GKs have ZERO save or COVER save when everybody shoots at them.?

Why, oh why do people continue to believe the myth that negating saves is the only way to score wounds? If I were playing GK against an army that was loaded up with AP2 weapons, I would do the happy dance, as it would mean there would be considerably less bodies on the ground for me to kill with all my freaking awesome 24” assault Storm Bolters.


i don't want to play the same army as everybody does. It was the main reason I chose DH.

Then why are you demanding your army have the same options as everyone else’s?


SM is GW's favorite army. Do you honestly think that GW will hurt their main 'base'.?

come on.!

Do you honestly think that removing this one option will hurt the Space Marines irrevocably?


Tell me how a GK GM is going to deal with a model such as Abbadon when his weapon is not as effective as it was.? Of course, it is only 1 model or this or that and it is your ONLY reason to JUSTIFY whatever you are saying.

How about you freaking SHOOT HIM!!!


Your army is not GK, is it.? this FW new rule is going to change your army much, isn't it.? It does in my army which is NOT as good as yours. Therefore, any change in this army is going to hurt at this point.

Are you really serious when you tell me that.?

How many models in the GK army actually get the IK ability on their NFWs? How does this affect GK any more than any other army with access to FWs?


When you failed to make your case about this new rule, you tell me how I should play GKs.? For the record, I have played pure GKs for 3+ years.

And I’m guessing you’ve played them exactly the same way for all 3 of those years.

I’m not going to tell you how to play your army. That would be perpetuating the myth that people should seek some sort of gestalt consensus on army behaviour from the net rather than use their own freaking brains for a change :rolleyes:


forgive my arrogant but why do i need to take your advise how to play GKs when i have played them for a long time.?

But, you just asked us to tell you :confused:. Make up your mind.

I’m out man. This is gone beyond ridiculous now. It's like arguing with GOB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Oscar_%22G.O.B.%22_Bluth_II).

COME ON!

Marrak
20-03-2008, 05:48
I must (as a DH and SM player) take issue with some of the above. It is very widely accepted that DH are the most underpowered Codex in the entire of 'mainstream' 40k. The points costs alone for what you get are ridiculous- Your assertion that 'large numbers of units have their saves ignored by GK firepower' is true, but chances are that, assuming you roll on the odds all-game, a standard unit of PAGK will not make its points back against many of these 'weaker' units even if they get to shoot at them all game (and don't get shot themselves, or run out of targets, or whatever). Consider a unit of 10 PAGK shooting at Ork Boyz for a 6 turn game. On average, a turn, you get 6 or 7 kills, or approx. 40pts return. In a 6-turn game that is 240pts, from a (your only) Troops unit costing well over 250, fighting on its own terms against a unit it is supposed to be strong against, and that isn't even factoring in cover or being assaulted.


As for Terminators and Psycannons, they can ignore invulnerable saves, yes, but I think I can count on one hand the units in common use that are vulnerable to Psycannons since they ignore Invulnerable saves. Admittedly, if you are putting your Terminators in the line of fire of weapons to which they are vulnerable you deserve to get them shot down and the amount of return fire a unit of TAGK with 3 Psycannons can throw out is quite something. But this is all at the limits of what people can do with GK (a 3-Psycannon squad is something of an exploit, and only one per army), and while they are relatively durable if used well, this has come only from a couple of years of heavy defeats and experience. It is, if you like, the GK's answer to Holo-Falcon Harlequins of the Eldar.


On the matter of the Grand Master, I never use him anyway. He is worryingly frail for his points cost and IC status, and to tool him up so his Force Weapon can actually kill anything requires him to cost upwards of 200pts, and there is not a character in the game costing more than that that cannot kill him on a regular basis, if not before he hits you, then at the same time. The new Force Weapon rules will simply put beyond doubt exactly what many have said for a while regarding the SM Captain on Speed.


Your comments on Abaddon were also somewhat...confusing. Pumping Psycannon shots will drop off one or two of his Terminator Bodyguard, or he's an independent character so you can't shoot him. You might fire your (between 0 and 6, maximum) Lascannons at them, but then you're not firing at the vehicles you should be with such limited AV firepower. Having seen Guardians kill Abaddon with shooting doesn't make it anything other than some truly atrocious luck on the part of the Chaos player, and if you charge your Carnifex into a tarpit unit then I'm afraid you were outmaneuvered and beaten fair and square, because that's exactly what should happen if a 250pt CC carni charges 50 Conscripts.

I would agree with you on the points of the DH codex. I fully agree it needs an update and is extremely hard to become effective.

Yes the psi-cannon's ability to ignore invulnerable saves is limited in use, but I was trying to make a counter-point to 40kdhs when he claimed that he gets no saves when his GKs are shot at.

If you claim that the GK GM is fragile I won't argue that point; again, I feel that the DH codex is in need of an update. This, however, has nothing to do with the original point made by 40kdhs. Your point is much clearer and more easily discussed; I and others have simply tried to point out that the Force weapon's use is only getting limited by a very small degree in 5th ed. Personally, I feel the GK GM is very tough, but the point cost of the entire codex is remarkably high for what the army does overall.

Oh, I'll be the first to claim I got out-maneuvered by the guard player, it became a bit of a joke between us that game to see how many conscripts died each turn. :) To my defense though, I wasn't the one who charged.

As for Abbadon, you CAN shoot at him if he's an IC, he just has to be closer than other units. If he's in a unit you just shoot the unit. And Guardians did shoot Abbadon down, but it wasn't in one turn and all the Eldar player was doing was looking for a kill here or there. However, his first priority was to make sure Abbadon could not reach his lines, the kill was just gravy for him.

Mojaco
20-03-2008, 11:46
Pure GK are pretty weak, but the codex does allow guard units and such. Doesn't that help them? I think if more people would stop using half the codex it might help with competitive play.

Mad King George
20-03-2008, 16:23
great, im sure the creators and founders of the game hate it now they see all there work and flavor of the game being diluted

Mojaco
20-03-2008, 16:40
what are you responding to?

Imperialis_Dominatus
20-03-2008, 17:53
I echo Mojaco's question. :eyebrows:

40kdhs
20-03-2008, 18:28
That serves you right for allowing yourself to be charged :rolleyes:


1- GKs are not running fast. 2 LRs/LRCs are 1/4 point of a 2k game.
2- my GK units mostly charges so that mine can go the same I.



Yes I do see, but I think you fail to. You have just said you get something NOBODY ELSE DOES, and still you complain? :wtf:


i know that it has been a long day for you but i need to remind you that the only 40k character which has a S6 FW is GK GM. Yes.?

it was what I meant.



Then why are you demanding your army have the same options as everyone elseís?


because GKs are the BEST according to GW.! Is it pathetic to see normal SM and number #1 GK's enemy (Chaos) are better equipped than GKs.?



Do you honestly think that removing this one option will hurt the Space Marines irrevocably?


it will not hurt your SM. You still have your Chaplain.?

If my GM is no good, the only choice i have left is BC. See the differences.?


How about you freaking SHOOT HIM!!!


how many stormbolters do you need to put out to kill a 4W model with 2+ armour save while the rest of his army is waiting for you.?

It's easy to look at it and give your 5 cents about how to play a 'limited' army.




And Iím guessing youíve played them exactly the same way for all 3 of those years.


I have never played my army the same way. I change the way I play after I look at the objective and the army I face.

40kdhs
20-03-2008, 18:49
First off, to your comment about how other armies get their saves when GKs shoot at them, while GKs loose their armor from the return fire.


1-How can a stormbolters gun ignore a 3+ save unit .?
2- After killing some million 5+ armour save models, will you earn your point back when they kill yours.?



As to how to handle Abbadon, my first suggestion would be to soften him at range. Do you only use one unit to deal with a single opponent's unit, to the exlusion of others that could assist?


Firstly,with an expensive army such as GKs, how many units do you think that we have.?

Secondly, how many stormbolters shot do you need to put out to kill a 4 wounds model with 2+ save.?

Thirdly, if you factor the first ,the second, and the IC status, it is nearly impossible to kill Abbadon with stormbolters.

To some of you, it's easy to give your opinion about how to deal a certain unit when you don't come from the same 'branch'. I mean GK 'branch'.



And I've seen your GK GM more than earn his keep in a number of situations (we actually have 2-3 GK armies at the store I play at), and not solely because of his FW. He's a good choice, and rock solid. But continuing to base your complaint solely upon the most expensive character in the Chaos codex, you're not going to find many supporters.

Let me ask you a few questions:

1- As the result of this new FW change, GM is not a good choice any more. What choice do I have in DH.? a BC. ? Tell me how a 1 W I4 model is going to accomplish anything.?

2- As the current rule, a GM can still kill any immuned ID characters. Will you bring Abbadon or any immuned ID character when facing a GK army after this new FW rule comes out so that you can benefit the rule.?

3- If GM can't take on any tough character in the game, nobody in DH can. Do you expect me to accept the way it is and move on.?

NallTWD
20-03-2008, 19:06
The entire reason I have allied Grey Knights in my traditional Space Marine army, is that I play a close-range firefight/assault list. I need the raw might of the GKGM's S6 FW to mess up carnifexes and Hive Tyrants that get in my lines. It's the ONLY way to reliably kill them.

Since I refuse to play gunline Space Marines, I feel this finally tips the table forever. No longer can my marines out-assault nids, nor can I drop as many long range high strength shots. No, that big nasty bug that I ruin mercilessly by blowing it apart from the inside is totally immune to whatever I throw at it. Sure DP's are nasty, but they only have a 3+ save at T5. Most bugs are 2+ at T6+, making life a LOT harder for the basic Marine, of hell, even a Marine hero.

It really feels that this edition will be "The Conquering Horde". Nid MC's can fire all their weapons, where even my dread can't fire a heavy flamer when he moves after opening up with an AC. They can screen their heavy CC units and dig into combat with dirt cheap, fast moving troops choices that won't run ever (if you're not a TOTAL *****...) They're immune to FW's and insta-death and powerfists will be losing an attack. To seal the deal, stealers can pay a 2 point upgrade to re-roll ALL missed wounds to get those ever-elusive 6's. Ouch.

Let's review:

1) Tyranids move faster than you do
2) Tyranids shoot more than you do
3) Tyranids assault you with more attacks and rend.

I for one welcome our new nid overlords and hope they devour the galaxy quickly so I can GET BACK TO HAVING FUN.

Midknightwraith
20-03-2008, 19:25
Maybe the answer is to have Force weapons ignore the ID negation of daemons. That feels right to me. Just like I feel the Wraith Guns should ignore the imune to ID abilities. How does one ignore getting "wholy transported to the warp"? You may not be dead-dead, but you certainly aren't doing anything else for the current battle, which might as well be the samething.

40kdhs - you are running suspiciously close to obstinate and rude, be careful. Many of the suggestions are good ones. Not to mention the best one, "Use your allies". GKs are supposed to be highly, highly specialised troops. I can't imagine more than a couple hundred points being in the same place at the same time. Let alone a full Org chart of them. The concept is just daft. They were never designed as a full fledged army, but rather an elite unit to be plugged into other imperial armies. Complaining about this is like volunteering to drink a gallon of Castor Oil mixed with raw eggs, and then complaining when you get projectile vomit an hour later. Many armies have similar problems Sister's of Battle, and Death Wing just to name a few. Though admittedly they are not in as bad a shape, because their unit cost is less, and have more recent codexes.

That is all part and parcel with taking an exclusively GKs army. You either find a way to deal with it or you don't. Either way whining to the rest of us changes nothing. How about trying to spread out your points and not taking as many GKTs. I'll tell you another little secret I've found over the years. Kit, of most varieties, is typically not worth it's points. I placed 4th in a RTT over the weekend playing eldar. 1st - 3rd had exactly 1 battle point more than I did. I had 1 total Exarch, a DireAvenger with BladeStorm and nothing else; and 1 Warlock with Enhance. No other kit in the entire list. Including 5 Aspect Warrior Squads, 2 Wave Serpents, plus 3 additional guardian based units. And I would have won by quite a bit if my dice hadn't completely crapped out on me in my second game. A unit of 3 Vibro's missed 3 times out of 5 shooting at 2-3 squads of orcs.

My point is that kit can typically just be replaced by more bodies and end up getting a better result. There are limits to be sure. But try it, you to may be surprised how good GKs can be when you leave the bells and whistles at home.

40kdhs
20-03-2008, 19:48
40kdhs - you are running suspiciously close to obstinate and rude, be careful. Many of the suggestions are good ones. Not to mention the best one, "Use your allies". GKs are supposed to be highly, highly specialised troops. I can't imagine more than a couple hundred points being in the same place at the same time. Let alone a full Org chart of them. The concept is just daft. They were never designed as a full fledged army, but rather an elite unit to be plugged into other imperial armies. Complaining about this is like volunteering to drink a gallon of Castor Oil mixed with raw eggs, and then complaining when you get projectile vomit an hour later. Many armies have similar problems Sister's of Battle, and Death Wing just to name a few. Though admittedly they are not in as bad a shape, because their unit cost is less, and have more recent codexes.


I'm not here to be rude to anybody. I'm only here to paint the real picture of GKs. To some of you, it is easy to say that this small change doesn't effect GKs much but it , infact, does because it is a 'limited' army. You really don't have many 'options' to choose. 0-1 restriction appears in HQ and allying choice.

I hope that my questions in previous posts help you understand my points better.



My point is that kit can typically just be replaced by more bodies and end up getting a better result. There are limits to be sure. But try it, you to may be surprised how good GKs can be when you leave the bells and whistles at home.

I have done something like that for year because it is hard to have a 'taking all comer' list.

shin'keiro
20-03-2008, 20:24
The force weapon in 5th is exactly the same!.. its just certain characters in the new dexes have 'eternal warrior' so those particular guys cant be instant killed by anything...

noobzor
20-03-2008, 21:52
The entire reason I have allied Grey Knights in my traditional Space Marine army, is that I play a close-range firefight/assault list. I need the raw might of the GKGM's S6 FW to mess up carnifexes and Hive Tyrants that get in my lines. It's the ONLY way to reliably kill them.

Since I refuse to play gunline Space Marines, I feel this finally tips the table forever. No longer can my marines out-assault nids, nor can I drop as many long range high strength shots. No, that big nasty bug that I ruin mercilessly by blowing it apart from the inside is totally immune to whatever I throw at it. Sure DP's are nasty, but they only have a 3+ save at T5. Most bugs are 2+ at T6+, making life a LOT harder for the basic Marine, of hell, even a Marine hero.

It really feels that this edition will be "The Conquering Horde". Nid MC's can fire all their weapons, where even my dread can't fire a heavy flamer when he moves after opening up with an AC. They can screen their heavy CC units and dig into combat with dirt cheap, fast moving troops choices that won't run ever (if you're not a TOTAL *****...) They're immune to FW's and insta-death and powerfists will be losing an attack. To seal the deal, stealers can pay a 2 point upgrade to re-roll ALL missed wounds to get those ever-elusive 6's. Ouch.

Let's review:

1) Tyranids move faster than you do
2) Tyranids shoot more than you do
3) Tyranids assault you with more attacks and rend.

I for one welcome our new nid overlords and hope they devour the galaxy quickly so I can GET BACK TO HAVING FUN.

Hint: TERMINATORS. LASCANNONS. MELTAGUNS. Those 3 things will destroy any fex in existence.... in 1 to 2 turns.....

not to mention that when these rules happen you wont see as many nidzilla lists, as they aren't scoring units.....

besides, you're still getting what, 5 (?) S6 power weapon attacks at I5 against that fex.. which if used after a turn of meltagunning will probably kill any fex in one turn.

genesteakers cost at least 20 pts only with an armor upgrade, which is still destroyed by heavy bolters.

If you don't want to have a gunline in your list, that is not something to complain about. It will probably be neccesary, but if you don't see that that is unfortunate. :( Just adapt your tactics a little.

Mojaco
20-03-2008, 22:16
This is typical forum behaviour. Either side is throwing the same arguments over and over to each other and noone will admit. Sigh. I'm leaving.

And we're right, 40kdhs; The change to forceweapons is not why Grey Knight are arguably the weakest army. I can understand the frustration, but you're blowing it way out of proporsion.

Marrak
21-03-2008, 00:37
This is becoming insane... frankly I agree with Mojaco's above post.

First this was about how the clarification for FW's in 5th stopped the GK GM from killing stuff, especially Abbadon. Now we're moving to a complaint that Space Marines can't out assault Tyranids... an army that holds much of its strength in assault.

For some clarification about Tyranid shooting, most of it is fantastically short ranged, and none of it can penetrate 3+ armor. Also, as was pointed out, meltaguns, plasma, and lascannons turn any MC into a pile of steam in a very short amount of time. Oh, and the re-roll to wound thing? Yea that only works on the first round of combat, and only on failed wound rolls. There have been a number of threads pointing out that it's effect is really minimal.

Now then, 40kdhs, it sounds to me like your biggest problem is people are tailoring lists to fight you. You mention that we'd take Abbadon against GKs for the immunity to FWs, but in all honesty Abbadon brings so many other things to the table besides that immunity to ID, not to mention his high point cost, never mind the fact that you're also working under the assumption that everyone tailors a list right before a game. I can't speak for where you play, but at the store I go to most people have a list already worked out unless we're trying something new, and special characters are extremely uncommon in most games.

Also, in regards to your shooting... do you only take stormbolters? While limited in number, the GKs do have some pretty nice firepower available to them. If you start stacking str6 shots onto a unit of t4, you might get surprised at the result. Why do you think dakkafexes and warp spiders are so effective? Neither get any AP, but both get a horde of str6 shots. With enough wounds any armor can and will fail.

Stezerok
21-03-2008, 02:50
Also, in regards to your shooting... do you only take stormbolters? While limited in number, the GKs do have some pretty nice firepower available to them. If you start stacking str6 shots onto a unit of t4, you might get surprised at the result. Why do you think dakkafexes and warp spiders are so effective? Neither get any AP, but both get a horde of str6 shots. With enough wounds any armor can and will fail.

Well ok, there are a couple of things here. I mean I don't know about Abaddon, I've never played against, and I can't say I ever look forward to it. But as far as what you're saying here Marrak, I'd have to say no. The truth is that we really do only have Stormbolters. Psycannons, are pretty much a novelty to be used on Termies, BC's, or Throw-Aways' as some call them (I include them on my FA GK's, but thats still only two on one unit...) Furthermore, the real problem with these is that they double the cost of the GK bearing them, and rid him of his CC prowess, for very unique and limited modes of firing... In short these arguments of using our "great" firepower to put Abaddon in the dirt are pretty ridiculous and unfounded (especially considering you'd be asking us to put 3 units--most likely all of our infantry--into a single IC...). No a better argument in this case is just quite simply that Abaddon is not the only fish in the pond that NFW's could affect. Again, I agree with those of you who say that the nerf to FW's will not break GK's, but seriously, we GK's do have a legitimate gripe.


This is becoming insane... frankly I agree with Mojaco's above post.

First this was about how the clarification for FW's in 5th stopped the GK GM from killing stuff, especially Abbadon. Now we're moving to a complaint that Space Marines can't out assault Tyranids... an army that holds much of its strength in assault.

Yea I completely agree with this, this thread is just getting out of hand...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

self biased
21-03-2008, 05:15
i really hate to do this but...

"Summary?"

judging by the tone of the first post it sounds like whining is involved. could it be that they're simply correcting for an oversight that occurred, and restoring to something that the designers truly intended?

Occulto
21-03-2008, 07:19
i really hate to do this but...

"Summary?"

judging by the tone of the first post it sounds like whining is involved. could it be that they're simply correcting for an oversight that occurred, and restoring to something that the designers truly intended?

Goes like this:

Force weapons are apparently rumoured to cause instant death in 5th ed.

Any model immune to instant death is therefore rumoured to be immune to force weapons in 5th ed (well the instant death bit).

The person who started this originally plays Grey Knights and feels this will make his Grand Master weaker than a newborn kitten in combat. Others disagree.

That's about it. :p

Midknightwraith
21-03-2008, 13:18
What I can't believe is that so many of us stuck around for this whinefest for nearly 200 posts. Do we really have nothing better to do?

40Kdhs - Yeah the GKGM got boned a bit. So did every other FW weilding model in the 40K universe. I realize the issue is that you don't have anything to fall back on in the GKs list, calm down, it will be OK, repeat after me: "It's just a game."

On a side note, I love the Daemonhunters/WitchHunters codecies for the flavor they add to the game. I just wish people would understand that these are not regular stand on their own armies, and stop trying to play them that way. There is a reason you don't fight regular battles with Special Forces Units. They are too expensive to train and maintain for that kind of work.

Back to 40Kdhs - Yes the GKs are supposed to be the Elite of the Elite, Space Marines on Steroids and Cocaine plus pychic powers to boot. Their cost reflects this. The change to FWs doesn't change that. They lost a toy for a 0-1 choice in the HQ section that was probably a little over-powered to begin with. That it downgrades an already underpowered force is not what you should be complaining about. Your argument is to keep an overpowered weapon mechanic around so that an underpowered force can be balanced. While everybody else has to suffer going up against the overpowered weapon in forces that don't need it? :wtf: Just wait for your new codex. And in the mean time just grit your teeth and bare it, because it's comming, and the best thing you can do is figure out a way to play with it changed.

noobzor
21-03-2008, 15:41
that GKGM will still rip thru any of my HQs barring the Avatar....(I play eldar)
not to mention the majority of my units...exceptions being a wraithlord and wraithguard.

NallTWD
21-03-2008, 17:06
I still refuse to play down to "the only way marines are effective is to play gunlines". That's ******** no matter HOW you look at it.

There are 9 other companies, you know.

Souchan
21-03-2008, 17:48
My GK's are only boosted in 5th tbh, but that's mostly because I do not field, the big GM, but the 3 LR list(Ty australian guy who I need to thank for the basis idea of that list, I'll need to refind your name sometime) I use sees a lot of win in 5th :D

I also always believed Immune to ID also included the force weapon as I never even considered it being 2 separate things, especially with GW's habits to not have specific rule names. To me the new 5th wording is a nice tidying up of a silly mess, on many grounds(like Terminators in the new codices all have terminator armour listed as a possesion XD)

40kdhs
21-03-2008, 18:44
And we're right, 40kdhs; The change to forceweapons is not why Grey Knight are arguably the weakest army. I can understand the frustration, but you're blowing it way out of proporsion.

If GM can't take on any tough character in the game because of this new change, which character in DH should I use.? Zero.?

This is one of my above questions which I asked you to answer but you AVOIDED. I'm not here to ask for your sympathy. You don't comfort me by telling me that a GK GM is still able to kill IG HQs.

Mojaco
21-03-2008, 18:58
If GM can't take on any tough character in the game because of this new change, which character in DH should I use.? Zero.?

This is one of my above questions which I asked you to answer but you AVOIDED. I'm not here to ask for your sympathy. You don't comfort me by telling me that a GK GM is still able to kill IG HQs.

I've underlined it for you. This statement is false. The GM can take on plenty of tough characters, just not the one you are aiming at; abaddon. A character that's more points then a landraider.

Try this; don't fight him. He's walking, he's not scoring, and your army is 275 points larger then that of your opponent. Put one wound on him with a hail of bolter fire and you get 138 VPs. Put more volleys on him and you kill him. Ofcourse your opponent will do his best to avoid all this, but that's why this is a strategy game.

btw, can you kill abaddon now, using 4th edition rules? Regardless of ruleset, you're dead before you can lift a finger.

I take it you've been helped enough at this point. From now on, try some tactics.

40kdhs
21-03-2008, 19:30
Now then, 40kdhs, it sounds to me like your biggest problem is people are tailoring lists to fight you.

Do you know that GKs always have big problems until GW fixed them.?

1-If you know that FW doesn't ID an immuned character, will you use this chracter when fighting a GK army.?
2- I'm all about changes if my army has 'alternative'. What is my 'alternative' if my GM can't take on any tough 'immuned' character any more in the 5th edition.? The answer is ZERO. Why.?

You don't need your S4 FW character because you have other characters to choose.If my GM FW effectiveness is reduced, i'm pretty much done.

Now, if DH codex is 'GOOD', i'm all for the changes but it is NOT, is it.? It is small change to some of you but it is a BIG LOSS to GK's players.





Also, in regards to your shooting... do you only take stormbolters?


To answer your question, it really depends on whom I face. A right tool for a right job.



While limited in number, the GKs do have some pretty nice firepower available to them. If you start stacking str6 shots onto a unit of t4, you might get surprised at the result.


The keyword here is 'might'. When we use this word, the percentage of our meaning is less than 50%.It speaks a lot about GK's shooting which needs to be improved. It is not the 'quantity' that counts.



Why do you think dakkafexes and warp spiders are so effective? Neither get any AP, but both get a horde of str6 shots. With enough wounds any armor can and will fail.

Again, you compared an orange vs apple.

1-Warp spider moves faster than GKs.
2-Warps spider's point cost is CHEAPER.
3- Warps spider's special rule is 2d6 jump.

See my point.?

It is easy for a person like you to let me know 'how to play' my army when you don't play it.

40kdhs
21-03-2008, 19:42
I've underlined it for you. This statement is false. The GM can take on plenty of tough characters, just not the one you are aiming at; abaddon. A character that's more points then a landraider.


not immuned ID characters.



btw, can you kill abaddon now, using 4th edition rules? Regardless of ruleset, you're dead before you can lift a finger.


Not in the 4th edition.? You are wrong.! Abbadon is a I6 character with S8 lightning claw and other goodies.?

My GM + sacred incense which reduces Abbadon's I to 5. Do you know what it means.?

1- If Abbadon charges my GM in a cover, he will die before striking back because my GM is I10 while Abbadone with frag grenade is I9. Good point.?

2-If Abbadon charges my GM out open, he will go the same I as mine because of GM's sacred incense. Even though Abbadon is going to have 7+ As, he will be IDed by GM's FW. Of course, GM also dies at the same.

I hope that you understand that why this change is going to hurt my army more than anybody else because i don't have another alternative to kill high I and T immuned characters in a 'limited' army.



I take it you've been helped enough at this point. From now on, try some tactics.

As you can see, you didn't help me at all because you know nothing about GKs. I understand it because you don't play my army.

kokujin_atsuhara
21-03-2008, 20:05
So...you can't kill abbadon with your GM?
And with something else?

Do you play everyday and everygame against abbadon or chaos?
Do you only play games against ID-inmunized characters?

Mojaco
21-03-2008, 20:45
As you can see, you didn't help me at all because you know nothing about GKs. I understand it because you don't play my army.
Enough to come up with a tactic you completely ignored and will work. Which also tells me enough to start ignoring you, as all you want to hear is; you're right, poor you.

Your own, 4th edition tactic relies on being charged while in cover, AND abaddon deciding it's best to go base to base with a model that can instakill it. In order words, it's based on opponents who don't think. Granted, I didn't know about the -1 initiative, but even when striking at initiative 10 and fighting simultanious, it would be bad trade-off to me if I were the abaddon player.

kokujin_atsuhara
21-03-2008, 21:03
Enough to come up with a tactic you completely ignored and will work. Which also tells me enough to start ignoring you, as all you want to hear is; you're right, poor you.

Your own, 4th edition tactic relies on being charged while in cover, AND abaddon deciding it's best to go base to base with a model that can instakill it. In order words, it's based on opponents who don't think. Granted, I didn't know about the -1 initiative, but even when striking at initiative 10 and fighting simultanious, it would be bad trade-off to me if I were the abaddon player.


Agreed!

If I have abaddon in my army, I'll try to charge a unit that can't ID me.
Like your foot marines, for example: abaddon can take thousands of it for breakfast.

There are things better to kill abaddon that charge into CC.
It's like trying to win eldrad with another psyker...

Inquisitor_Eljer
21-03-2008, 22:10
I hope that you understand that why this change is going to hurt my army more than anybody else because i don't have another alternative to kill high I and T immuned characters in a 'limited' army.


I think we all understand that pure Grey Knights and even mixed Daemon Hunter forces are not currently overly competetive. A change of the core rules will not change this fact. Until there is a new Codex: Daemon Hunters or combined Codex: Inquisition, all of us who play them will have to do our best while we're 'out of date'. Ork and Dark Eldar players had to do this for a decade or so...that leaves us with 4 or so years more of waiting. :p

Khornies & milk
21-03-2008, 22:25
OK, I'm a DH player and I always take a GM in my list at 2K and up, and I'm sure I will do the same when 5th Ed rolls around. Why? Because I like having him in my Army for a lot of reasons like - my back story, DH fluff, love of the mini due to the way he's converted. Oh, and he's a pretty decent scrapper in a fight. He gets killed quite often because he's always in a fight and usually outnumbered...so he dies heroic deaths, and I'm cool with that. I can feel for you if you're going to face uber characters a lot in 5th, but you're just going to have to face the fact that until a new DH Codex comes out he's not going to get any better. Does it suck - damn straight, but too bad.
I think I said earlier but I don't take him below 2K as he's too damn expensive, and (imo) if you take him in smaller lists than 2k you're handicapping yourself.
How will I deal with Uber Characters without a GM that's semi-uber himself - shoot him even more than usual and hope that works, because yes we don't have anything else to do than that. If it doesn't then too bad aye....I don't think that when 5th comes out GW are going to say "Oh, by the way, the new changes to FW don't apply to the GK GM".
So too bad, so sad - ALL GK Players are in the same boat as you are, and I hope they all don't come on here and carry on incessantly like you are...your main thrust of this Thread is valid, but it's been done to death.

Souchan
21-03-2008, 22:57
I strongly doubt Abaddon will be at I9 as cover has always been 10=10 deal, but I even more strongly doubt Abaddon with frags, as as far as I can remember as there is no Crusader, Abaddon can never have frags(feel free to correct if I've missed a method)?

Even with those advantages I would probably avoid wrestling with Abaddon as he is a nasty bastard and as a non scoring unit would likely try to focus on the rest of the army and avoid CC with him like the plague. I might sacrifice a single unit, to tie him up while relocating others, but not having many units I'd just do my best to fall back and fire and nicer targets. In 5th, if he goes for the full termie body guard, thats one hell of a lot of points that's not scoring.

It's a pity you dislike the Brother Captain so much,I almost always field one instead of the GM as he eats a lot of points in our expensive army. Especially giving him lots of wargear is something I avoid when fielding him, I never let him go beyond the 175 points.

I sit patiently awaiting whenever it is they finally decide to give us a 5th codex, with all the great new codices of late I can't wait to see how they tune us and with luck we'll get some (more) CC weapons that can ignore Inv saves so we can finally properly whack a mole some daemons :D

40kdhs
21-03-2008, 23:34
So...you can't kill abbadon with your GM?
And with something else?


You MISUNDERSTOOD. What I said was if GM can't kill abbadon in CC, nobody in DH can. Period. Hope it makes sense.



Do you play everyday and everygame against abbadon or chaos?
Do you only play games against ID-inmunized characters?

I asked you and other some questions in my previous posts but you chose not to answer. Anyhow,the fact that ID inmunized characters exist proves that I have some valid points to talk about the new FW rule.

I don't tell my opponents which units they should put in their list and I have to be ready when they're ready. You need to remember that Chaos is not the only army which has ID inmunized characters and whether I faced them or not is not something that we can control but their existent is a main concern to a GK GM.

40kdhs
21-03-2008, 23:36
There are things better to kill abaddon that charge into CC.
It's like trying to win eldrad with another psyker...

I proved to you that it's nearly impossible to kill Abaddon by shooting in DH codex in previous post but you didn't read it for some reasons.

40kdhs
21-03-2008, 23:40
Enough to come up with a tactic you completely ignored and will work. Which also tells me enough to start ignoring you, as all you want to hear is; you're right, poor you.


if you go back and re-read my post, your tactics are not that good. The way you told me how to use GKs is the same way as you use your SM or chaos or whatever.



Your own, 4th edition tactic relies on being charged while in cover, AND abaddon deciding it's best to go base to base with a model that can instakill it. In order words, it's based on opponents who don't think.


my tactics depends on the 'situation'. After all, i don't have to kill your abadon to win / tie a game.



Granted, I didn't know about the -1 initiative.
perhaps, you should restrain from telling me how to play GKs because you have no idea what you are saying.

40kdhs
21-03-2008, 23:42
I strongly doubt Abaddon will be at I9 as cover has always been 10=10 deal, but I even more strongly doubt Abaddon with frags, as as far as I can remember as there is no Crusader, Abaddon can never have frags(feel free to correct if I've missed a method)?



You missed a lot.!

Imperialis_Dominatus
21-03-2008, 23:42
40kdhs, you've been double- and triple-posting this whole thread. I think you should look to the edit function in the future.

Heritor
22-03-2008, 04:21
You missed a lot.!

I hate to tell you this but there are PLENTY of armies in the game that cannot INSTAKILL or even kill Abaddon. Black Templars for example don't get force weapons and doesn't have one unit that can kill him in CC out side of mobbing him...

The only army that can kill Abaddon in Close combat is a Banshee squad that is guided with doom on Abaddon or Tyranids due to Catalyst.

A Grand Master can kill any character a Space Marine hero can kill so quit whining. There is no doubt that the DH need to be redone.... its a 3rd ed Codex that is over specialized.

If your depending on the Force Weapon for your GM then you need to rethink your army. You're using a FW as a crutch and btw Azrael 210pts, Grimaldus 198pts, Helbrect 175pts, Marneus Calgar 185, Mephiston 225, Dante 200pts, and a whole slew of Space Marine Heroes that cost more then your GK GM are going to be beaten by Abaddon 9 out of 10 times.

You are no better then those Ork players that complain because thier Ork boyz can't kill Terminators anymore. Learn to play your army and stop whining that you won't have a crutch anymore.

Xurben
22-03-2008, 06:25
40kdhs

I still stick with my good ole' "bolters kill people" strategy.

Argue all you want, but Demon Hunters ARE a shooty army. Hence the whole mess of them carrying assault 2 shooting weapons. You can out range almost any other infantry unit in the game, they test night fighting to return fire, and you have more shots on the move. Force enough armor saves and anything dies.

Also, using GW fluff, the bolter is a sacred weapon. Used to deliver death to enemies of the imperium, last I checked the force weapon is not the common fighting tactic of most armies.

Play to your strengths, not your weaknesses. Zomg you can't kill abbadon in CC, hardly anything can. MOVE ON WITH YOUR LIFE.

This horse is dead, and you sir are violating it's remains.

cybercaine
22-03-2008, 06:31
You are no better then those Ork players that complain because thier Ork boyz can't kill Terminators anymore. Learn to play your army and stop whining that you won't have a crutch anymore.

In the first place, those players are flat out wrong in that their boyz cannot kill terminators. This is a separate argument, so I'm not going to make it. I am stating this though because this a fallacious comparison to the players that play DH. Why? Because their character is taking a bit of a blow in the coming edition. The boyz argument is just plain stupid. Those are players that do not understand the power that the ork boyz bring to that battle. I'd back a full squad any day against their equivalent point cost in terminators. Heck, I run 12 man boy squads off of truks against terminators all the time without blinking. Why? Because I'll grind them out with all the attacks I get and with my buried claw. I have no sympathy for the whining in that regard to the idiot ork players.

But I do have some sympathy for the DH players. I mean, that codex and army is clearly the worst and gets a little worse when the new edition hits. I only hope that gets fixed sooner rather than later. This is not to say that I think it shouldn't be changed from losing wounds to instant death. I agree with that change for a myriad of reasons. But I have a little sympathy for the GK players out there.

Mojaco
22-03-2008, 06:58
my tactics depends on the 'situation'. After all, i don't have to kill your abadon to win / tie a game.
What do you know, boy's got brains :) Isn't that the 'tactic' I posted? But somehow, when I said it, it wasn't good enough. Haha.


You missed a lot.!
You said this in reply to someone who said that Abaddon doesn't have frag grenades. He's right. Yet you go and say this. This is starting to go beyond sad...

Souchan
22-03-2008, 13:49
Well I just wondered how much chance a GM actually has of killing Abaddon, so I went and did a little calculating. Lets take the he's in cover and receiving the charge so gets to go first against big bad Aba, that's 4 attacks we got going(barring wasting points on getting him a 2nd CC weapon). Against the big man that's 2 average hits. This will result in 1 1/3 wound. that leaves us with a 66% chance the big guy can even get a single wound on Abad in the first place. Then there's the psychic check which only has a 1 in 12 chance of failing, but still leaving us with a 61%(and this is one of the best circumstances we could wish for) chance you could kill him in one turn.

This is very nice odds for 145 vs 275 point matchup, but still this is a risky bargain as you are far from guaranteed of getting this. That getting taken away doesn't bother me one bit and numerous other tough HQ's where this is still the case in 5th as many others have mentioned(and not IG ones).



You said this in reply to someone who said that Abaddon doesn't have frag grenades. He's right. Yet you go and say this. This is starting to go beyond sad...

Thank you ^_^

40kdhs
22-03-2008, 18:28
I hate to tell you this but there are PLENTY of armies in the game that cannot INSTAKILL or even kill Abaddon. Black Templars for example don't get force weapons and doesn't have one unit that can kill him in CC out side of mobbing him...


1- Blacktemplar is not the weakest 40k codex, is it.?
2- Mine soon joins the rest. At this point, is DH codex still the worst.?

still don't see my point.?



If your depending on the Force Weapon for your GM then you need to rethink your army.
You are no better then those Ork players that complain because thier Ork boyz can't kill Terminators anymore. Learn to play your army and stop whining that you won't have a crutch anymore.

It is foolish to even think that you rely on a character to win a game. It is hardly the case when you play a GK army.

Until you own a DH codex and play a GK army, i don't see your point because it effects my army NOT yours.

wolfbyte2586
22-03-2008, 18:50
frankly, this whole argument about DH seems silly to me, mostly because the codex itself is pretty silly to me.

Grey Knights are meant to kill daemons. Why on earth would an entire army of them stand unsupported against anything OTHER than daemons??? Theyre not meant to do anything but KILL DAEMONS! At most they should be allies to Space Marines or IG, not a standalone army. Theyre not meant to be standalone unless there are daemons. the whole basis for the codex as a standalone army is ridiculous. Theyre NOT a standalone army. Without a significant redo of the reasoning behind the Grey Knights, i really don't see why they should even have their own codex. They should just be merged into the Vanilla Marines codex as an ally force that you can swap in X amount of points if you discover your opponent is playing Chaos, or with daemons (Eldar with an Avatar), or with the new Daemon codex, with the option to play as a standalone force when you encounter daemons.

For example, you write up your new SM list to 1750 for the LVGT. There is a piece of wargear similar to an Auspex that allows you to discover the presence of Daemons/Chaos and summon in the power of the Grey Knights to handle it. You take that wargear. In game terms the wargear allows you to ask your opponent if he has any Daemons/Chaos in his army before beginning deployment. Yes or No is the only required response. If yes, you may substitute any points value of Grey Knights from your roster for the same amount of Vanilla Space Marines in the list to represent the fact that Grey Knights are present when Daemons are present, and that they detected the presence of the Daemons and came to battle it.

If no daemons/chaos, you play with the normal 1750 list you made.

Seems like a decent way of representing the Grey Knights actual reasons for existing on a battlefield where they are needed and their expensive upgrades and equipment will be put to use where it is needed rather than where it is not necessary.

Thats how i've seen them operating from all the fluff, if theres no daemons/chaos, why would they even be there fighting??? (now obviously if they are defending, they could be fighting anyone, but the above method seems like it would be much more balanced for DH as an army than the current, where they are really just an underpowered list because most of their abilities are useless).

Souchan
22-03-2008, 19:10
1- Blacktemplar is not the weakest 40k codex, is it.?
2- Mine soon joins the rest. At this point, is DH codex still the worst.?

still don't see my point.?



It is foolish to even think that you rely on a character to win a game. It is hardly the case when you play a GK army.

Until you own a DH codex and play a GK army, i don't see your point because it effects my army NOT yours.

Many do regard Templars as one of the weaker codices, but capable of managing. Similar things are said about GK.

No I still don't see your point, one aspect(which often relies on a bit of luck against those who have eternal warrior anyway even if if it affects them now) of your list changing, one I never even use or rely on in my pure GK army, shouldn't be the only reason your army worked in the first place. While it's nice when it works, its far from reliable(repeating myself now).

We were a difficult army to play before and I see many things in 5th that benefit us instead of weaken us, so I really don't get your issue here.

Xurben
22-03-2008, 23:06
1- Blacktemplar is not the weakest 40k codex, is it.?
2- Mine soon joins the rest. At this point, is DH codex still the worst.?

still don't see my point.?



It is foolish to even think that you rely on a character to win a game. It is hardly the case when you play a GK army.

Until you own a DH codex and play a GK army, i don't see your point because it effects my army NOT yours.

At this time, I don't think you even have a concise point. You have ranted plenty, but you never explain why "your" army is so horrible. You do seem to assume that nobody else has the codex or plays the army a lot though and whine about how you are so neglected.

You chose to play the army, nobody made you. It is a gimmick army, made to represent something that would never see day to day fighting. At this point, I think you need to just drop it, you have made no real argument as to why this nerfs GK over anyone else. GK will still have the ONLY str 6 force weapon, and the rest of the army is unchanged.

Get
Over
It

If you choose to reply, please use statements not questions. Tell us why you are so affected.

Varath- Lord Impaler
23-03-2008, 03:29
Hmm Grey Knights Vs Abaddon?

Let me think.

Abaddon is the biggest and baddest CHAOS LORD there is, with the power of the 4 gods of chaos behind him, the Lightning claw of a Primarch and the Daemon sword which can rend reality itself apart.

And you think he's going to be beaten by mr noname daemonhunter in one shot?

Im sorry, but no. really? no.

Abaddon will destroy him the same way he will destroy any other character or squad sent to him. The only way to destroy Abaddon is to send almost your entire army to face him.

If your Daemonhunters are worried then think of all those Imperial Guard players, how do you honestly think they will deal with Abaddon?

I would like to get an Eversor Assassin, i think he might be able to make a dent.

Souchan
23-03-2008, 04:09
I'd be against sending ev against abaddon, sending him against Ab's termie bodyguard however is a different matter entirely. Ev has many capabilites, but whacking Ab isn't one of them. Abaddon will allways kill Ev before he can strike(short of him charging ev in cover, but then ev probably got shot dead first). Most single models are chanceless or in need of serious luck to take him in CC. For his points, this surprises me very little.

Varath- Lord Impaler
23-03-2008, 05:06
oh yeah, Abaddons I6 isnt he, bummer thats harsh.

My guard will have to do what we always do, shoot to kill.

Marrak
24-03-2008, 07:59
Do you know that GKs always have big problems until GW fixed them.?

1-If you know that FW doesn't ID an immuned character, will you use this chracter when fighting a GK army.?
2- I'm all about changes if my army has 'alternative'. What is my 'alternative' if my GM can't take on any tough 'immuned' character any more in the 5th edition.? The answer is ZERO. Why.?

You don't need your S4 FW character because you have other characters to choose.If my GM FW effectiveness is reduced, i'm pretty much done.

Now, if DH codex is 'GOOD', i'm all for the changes but it is NOT, is it.? It is small change to some of you but it is a BIG LOSS to GK's players.





To answer your question, it really depends on whom I face. A right tool for a right job.



The keyword here is 'might'. When we use this word, the percentage of our meaning is less than 50%.It speaks a lot about GK's shooting which needs to be improved. It is not the 'quantity' that counts.



Again, you compared an orange vs apple.

1-Warp spider moves faster than GKs.
2-Warps spider's point cost is CHEAPER.
3- Warps spider's special rule is 2d6 jump.

See my point.?

It is easy for a person like you to let me know 'how to play' my army when you don't play it.

1:The character you speak of still is able to wound most (as in the majority, not all) characters on a 2+, and is able to wound all but t7 on a 4+. He has advantages beyond his FW.

2: As Mojaco stated earlier, this statement is blatantly false.

The GM is perhaps the best HQ choice available to you, but by no means will he make or break your army, and he shouldn't by any means.

To your point about the DH codex itself (NOT the point of the original thread btw), you'd see that many of us have agreed the codex is one of the weaker in 40k.

Going to ignore the statement about taking the right tool for the right job, as anyone can tailor a list to destroy a specific army.

Actually, quantity generally works better than quality. As has been said, repeated, and re-emphasized time and time again, you force enough saves and you'll kill anything. Even Abbadon.

And as for saying I'm comparing apples to oranges with Warp Spiders vs. GKs, I'd like to bring up a couple points:
1: I mentioned both dakkafexes and Warp spiders due to their shooting capabilities, both of which are known for volumes of fire to kill, not penetrating armor saves.
2: Carnifexes move just as fast as GKs, and don't have a nifty ability to keep them from being shot at.
3: Carnifexes die rather easily to massed fire.
4: You said I compared apples and oranges and then threw me a pear.
5: Again, to restate, I was using those two units as shooting examples, not their point value or special abilities that they use.

At this point I'm asking for a mod to lock this thread, it's gone beyond pointless and it's quickly becoming a shooting match. Either way I'm done with this particular topic.

Mojaco
24-03-2008, 16:54
At this point I'm asking for a mod to lock this thread, it's gone beyond pointless and it's quickly becoming a shooting match. Either way I'm done with this particular topic.

Hear hear. Whatever we said, mr 40kdhs will find a way to say we are not discussing fairly, not answering the question, not sticking to the topic or whatever.

To me, a str 6 forceweapon would be a great tool. Against MEQ it's like a powerfist on initiative, only capable of instakilling any toughness (except for T10 :)) To some that isn't good enough. Cry me a river.

40kdhs
25-03-2008, 00:23
At this time, I don't think you even have a concise point. You have ranted plenty, but you never explain why "your" army is so horrible. You do seem to assume that nobody else has the codex or plays the army a lot though and whine about how you are so neglected.


First,everybody knows how horrible 'DH' codex is and i don't really see the need to say any more. Second, did you notice all my unanswered questions and responses in previous pages.? Lastly, you don't answer my simple questions and you don't know what 'wargear' is in DH codex and all you tell me is SHOOT Abbaddon with stormbolters and psycannon.

Do you know why it is the MOST stupid suggestion.?

1-If Abbaddon is not nearest targest, you can't shoot him at all because of his IC status. Do you expect a Chaos player to put him in front of his army.?

2-Are you telling me that i have to DS my GK unit near him so that i can shoot him.? Tell me how many stormbolters shots do i need to put out to kill a T5 4W 2+ AS model.?

3-Was one of you who told me that a GK GM didn't currently stand a chance against Abbaddon UNTIL i pointed out 'sacred incense' item.?



You chose to play the army, nobody made you. It is a gimmick army, made to represent something that would never see day to day fighting.


I chose to play this army BUT i'm not the reason why DH codex is bad.

If you don't know the differences between the two, your ignorance is beyond my imagination.

The only reason why I chose to do it is nobody in my group wants to play it for 'obvious' reasons.



We were a difficult army to play before and I see many things in 5th that benefit us instead of weaken us

I know that you don't like my questions but let me ask you a fundamental question.

When GM's FNW effectiveness is reduced, what do you use to kill these immunized ID characters in DH codex.?


Many do regard Templars as one of the weaker codices, but capable of managing. Similar things are said about GK.


I'm sure you know the differences between 'weaker' and 'weakest'.



Actually, quantity generally works better than quality. As has been said, repeated, and re-emphasized time and time again, you force enough saves and you'll kill anything. Even Abbadon.


If I faced a Tynid army, Carnifax is my least 'concerned unit. Do you know why.? Because I have to worry about other 'leeping' units FIRST.

'quantity' without 'quality' at the end is no good at all.

Skyth
25-03-2008, 01:50
2-Are you telling me that i have to DS my GK unit near him so that i can shoot him.? Tell me how many stormbolters shots do i need to put out to kill a T5 4W 2+ AS model.?
.

108 (54 GK's firing)

36 TL Devourer shots on average (4.5 Carnies)

19.2 Guard Plasma shots (2.4 dropping command squads)

40kdhs
25-03-2008, 02:07
108 (54 GK's firing)

36 TL Devourer shots on average (4.5 Carnies)

19.2 Guard Plasma shots (2.4 dropping command squads)

you forgot 'roll to hit' and 'roll to wound' factors when you generated these numbers.?

Bloodknight
25-03-2008, 02:10
These are the numbers to knock his 4 wounds off. 108 shots, 72 hits, 24 wounds, 4 unsaved. ie you need about twice the number of GK shooting Abaddon to kill him on a single turn (no chaos player would let you pull that stunt for more than one) than many GK armies even have. ;)

ie, that was unsound advice, akin to people telling a guard player to kill for example terminator squads with lasguns (which is possible until one finds out that it takes a whole army (often more than the average Guard army has ) of them to accomplish it, ie is unviable); been there, gotten the advice, laughed. It's one of the perks of playing one of the weakest armies in the game - getting useless advice galore. ;)


I have to say however that the GK GM is quite a good combat character; the instakill feature is nice but probably not his biggest strength (and I would not be concerned too much, the GK will probably get their time in the sun when the next codex arrives, seeing how underpowered they are atm).

esk34
25-03-2008, 02:56
These are the numbers to knock his 4 wounds off. 108 shots, 72 hits, 24 wounds, 4 unsaved. ie you need about twice the number of GK shooting Abaddon to kill him on a single turn (no chaos player would let you pull that stunt for more than one) than many GK armies even have. ;)

ie, that was unsound advice, akin to people telling a guard player to kill for example terminator squads with lasguns (which is possible until one finds out that it takes a whole army (often more than the average Guard army has ) of them to accomplish it, ie is unviable); been there, gotten the advice, laughed. It's one of the perks of playing one of the weakest armies in the game - getting useless advice galore. ;)


I have to say however that the GK GM is quite a good combat character; the instakill feature is nice but probably not his biggest strength (and I would not be concerned too much, the GK will probably get their time in the sun when the next codex arrives, seeing how underpowered they are atm).

I have always found that lasguns for some reason always kill at least one or 2 terminators with minimal shooting (one sqaud of gaurd) for some reason. I think it has to do with irony and blind luck more than any type of skill, but that is the way that it works in real life. :)

I would say that the force weapon being regulated back down to a double toughness type of thing will hurt it, however as has been mentioned befroe the DH codex is rather weak and the force weapons did not make it all that much better. Sure it's nice to be able to instant kill most things in combat, but I have found it very rare indeed to have anything actually have it happen to it.

If you think about the rule (apart from the sillyness that is synaspe) of not being able to be instant killed , those characters are normally pretty expensive. You do pay for this piece of equipment so the idea of being killed instatly even when you do have it, is pretty unfair. I think GW are going to try to make the rules for most of this type of thing pretty much universal. That means that unfortantly for some armies they will lose effectivness until they redo there codex.
I will be first to admit that the DH need an overhaul, even more than the gaurd do, however in the long term most DH players will have to live with a slightly worse army until GW redo there codex. I always thought that deamon hunters were beter suited as a fluff army than a competive one anyway, but that is only my opinion.

Belissand
25-03-2008, 03:03
I believe the biggest concern is this:
Despite the fact that A force weapon (anyone) can instant kill nearly any Infantry, small based character, the topic would be that the one in the DH codex, owned by supposed heroes who have already slain many Daemons including Greater Daemons (see 1st Armaggedon war, GM vs World Eaters Primarch).

Before the Instant Death inmunity, GM could still hope to kill out right them, but now They will get lucky if they can stand more than 1CC phase against them. The Issue is not "Why can't I kill everybody with it?" but rather "why can't I kill the thing that my chapter was created for?"

Even with the Insta death protection I will continue to use the GM, because combined with Sacred Inscense only Slanesh DP can hope to go at the same time as him.

Varath- Lord Impaler
25-03-2008, 06:03
How would a Daemonhunters player kill Abaddon...hmmm...

hmmm...

How about you Throw a Grey knight Terminator unit into combat with Abaddon and his unit? Youll tear the unit apart, and if your lucky you'll wound Abaddon.

Then its just a case of hitting him until he submits.

The Dude
25-03-2008, 06:10
Then its just a case of hitting him until he submits.

If it didn't work on 40kdhs, what makes you think it will work on Abaddon? ;):p

Varath- Lord Impaler
25-03-2008, 06:28
If it didn't work on 40kdhs, what makes you think it will work on Abaddon?

Good call, Dude, good call.

wolfbyte2586
25-03-2008, 08:24
If it didn't work on 40kdhs, what makes you think it will work on Abaddon? ;):p

sigd... that made me lol so hard, i actually rofl'd.

pepe5454
25-03-2008, 18:55
Attacking abbadon and his most likely terminator friends with a squad of termies probably will get your squad of termies killed quickly. I kinda liked the way force weapons are and I am not talking DH here I just liked that there was something out there that someone who spent 240 points on a insanely powerfull unit had something to worry about still even if it was a small chance of killing him it was there. The last 4 games I played against chaos all had the big A travelling in a group of 10 termies walking up to cc shrugging off shots left and right it makes a difficult decision do I concentrate my entire armies fire on that one group all for 4 turns or do I worry about the thousand sons with their ap3 bolters in the rhinos coming my way and the oblits behind them or the las cannon squads shooting at my tanks etc. It's a choice of either ignore him and let him get close enough to charge and decimate your force or let the rest of the army pick you apart while you all shoot at his squad of termies. I liked that there was a small chance that my librarian might save the day pulling a miracle out of his **** =P. Most the time it he fails to wound but it did save the day once =). It won't affect me terribly but I liked how it did work. I might try using Ezekial and a culexus assasin and try mind worm on him next time I bet that would tick em off if he failed his now 7 leadership test =P.

40kdhs
29-03-2008, 18:53
These are the numbers to knock his 4 wounds off. 108 shots, 72 hits, 24 wounds, 4 unsaved. ie you need about twice the number of GK shooting Abaddon to kill him on a single turn (no chaos player would let you pull that stunt for more than one) than many GK armies even have. ;)

ie, that was unsound advice, akin to people telling a guard player to kill for example terminator squads with lasguns (which is possible until one finds out that it takes a whole army (often more than the average Guard army has ) of them to accomplish it, ie is unviable); been there, gotten the advice, laughed. It's one of the perks of playing one of the weakest armies in the game - getting useless advice galore. ;)


I'm glad you feel the same way. I have seen a lot of them in this thread.



the GK will probably get their time in the sun when the next codex arrives, seeing how underpowered they are atm.

I hope so.

40kdhs
29-03-2008, 18:55
Attacking abbadon and his most likely terminator friends with a squad of termies probably will get your squad of termies killed quickly.

i agree. Abbadon alone will eat all 10 terminators for breakfast.

Joewrightgm
30-03-2008, 05:18
I guess I'm not understanding; Nemisis Force Weapons are, I thought, different from a normal force weapon to the point of having their own special rules in the Demon Hunter codex.

That and I might be reading the discussion incorrectly, but I thought the PDF said after you take the psychic test after you wound someone, they suffer Instant Death? So its not really a 'nerf', more of a fiddly clarification.

P.S. How did we get on the topic of killing Abaddon?

Imperialis_Dominatus
30-03-2008, 07:31
Well, to tell the truth, Joewrightgm, it is a fiddly clarification, but it makes the force weapon slightly less powerful against those foes against which it is often employed. Ergo one might term it a nerf. Or, if you prefer, a fiddly nerfing clarification.

Gerrok
31-03-2008, 07:08
All I know is that Grey Knights (and inquisitor armies as a whole, except sisters) need a upgrade. The GKGM is going to become slightly worse, which is painful because he's already cost prohibitive and rarely worth the points.

But I'd just like to note that the GKGM NFW is basically a 'one per army' piece of gear, since only his is actually a force weapon and he is 0-1. Without the ability to one shot a big baddy in close combat it's much more effective to take a brother captain HQ and 2 additional GKT's for the same cost.

I'd also like to say that the IG need a codex revamping too, but not quite as bad as the GK's and "pure inquisitor" armies. But most people who play GK or inquisitor armies usually don't play to win, but it would be nice to be competitive.

40kdhs
31-03-2008, 18:50
I'd also like to say that the IG need a codex revamping too, but not quite as bad as the GK's and "pure inquisitor" armies. But most people who play GK or inquisitor armies usually don't play to win, but it would be nice to be competitive.

We would love to win GW's heart and mind so that we can have a new codex.:p

cochise
24-04-2008, 23:23
Well, I donīt know if I should be respawning this tread...but I canīt help myself.
After seeing that all Demons in the new demon army book are inmune to instant death, and knowing that forceweapons will cause instant death in the 5th edition...I was very confused.
I thought Force weapons were meant to kill that kind of beasts...I mean, you donīt need a force weapon to kill a toughnes 4 special charater, a bunch of S4 power weapon attacks is usually enough (or a well placed power fist...).
The logic I saw behind FW was: High toughness multi-wound creatures are difficult to wound. Therefore, FW allow the wielder to kill such beasts with a lucky psy powered strike (normally a 6 to wound for most librarians, 4+ for demonhunters, but thatīs because they should be able to kill demons easily).
Now, ALL demons and tyranids under synapse will be inmune to FW. The only use left for them is as character killers (and Abbadon and Kharn are inmune to it too...). I donīt know but it seems a huge boost to MC (well, the eldar avatar was left behind) all around and a big nerf to FW.
But the biggest problem is how are we supposed to explain that those weapons now canīt do what they were meant to do in all the background fluff we know?
It just seems weird to me. Just waiting to see how demonhunters will deal with demons now. Probably their nemesis weapons will negate invulnerable saves or something like that, but untill then...they are screwed.