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Stezerok
13-03-2008, 04:06
ok, so as you may have guessed from the name of the thread, I'm hoping to see mostly constructive, good ideas regarding how to adapt to 5th, rather than personal gripes and whines. For this thread, I wanted to get a discussion going on what changes people might be making to adapt to 5th. The main one in particular I'm thinking about is the whole Troops Are the Only Scoring Units. How do people plan to adjust to these changes, and what are people noticing about army lists they've tried to write for it?

Here are some rules changes off the top of my head:

Troops-Scoring
More Durable Tanks
Restriction to Fast-Skimmer Mobility/Change in Def. Weapons
Area Terrain
Outflank
Nerf to Rending
Screening

Those were the only ones I could think of off the top of my head, so if you have any others you want to talk about feel free. Keep in mind that these are obviously speculation and some things may be changed by the time the BGB comes out, and therefore we may have to sit back and look at the principle, or reason for the change, behind the rule change rather than the actual wording of the rule as we have in the PDF.

For instance currently we have it written in the PDF that Def. Weapons are going to be str 4 and under. After all the complaints about such a change I would imagine that GW has rethought how to approach that situation. So at this point, we might want to consider, that GW probably is not going to change the def. weapons to str 4, but rather we have strong proof that there will be some kind of change to the way the system is currently (some say that def weapons should be str 5 or assault weapons, others say it should be explicit in the codex, and I'm sure GW is taking all of this into consideration...). So if we know there is going to be a change to Def. Weapons, then how do we think it will affect us Eldar players. Especially when we consider that our vehicles aren't scoring. Or what about Fire Prisms. Will they still be effective AT, when the str 9 plate has to scatter due to the change to blasts? These are the kind of things I'm hoping to get people talking about. So go ahead, speak your mind!

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Aegis
13-03-2008, 07:02
Basically, I'm thinking I want to protect my objectives with some good defensive units, and also protect my advance so I can have a pretty solid army still when I want to capture or contest my opponents' objectives.

I'm going to start fielding a medium sized squad of pathfinders. If I get the chance, one of my objectives will be in cover in my deployment zone. These guys will be charged with camping on the objective with their 2+ cover save and pinning units/killing big stuff.

I'll also start fielding dark reapers. This unit (with fast shot tempest launcher) can TEAR UP troops that may be thinking about getting too close to my objectives. When they're not defending my deployment zone, they'll be using their range to soften up enemies for my own advance. In my trial game, these guys earned themselves a lot of respect.

I'm still going to field a falcon (I've only ever owned one), and I think now I'm going to finally buckle down and get some fire dragons to put in it. Now that my warp spiders can't hope to pop tanks from rear armor (my previous favorite tactic), I'm going to need something that can reliably make vehicles boom.

I'm going to experiment more with the jetbike screen. That's a unit of nine jetbikes with three shuricannons, a concealing warlock, and a fortune farseer. Maybe give the farseer doom too, since he'll be at the front line of the army. The idea is you can advance while leaving yourself firing lanes at the end of your movement phase. Then you open up from your firebase without shooting through your own troops. In the assault phase, you use the 6" move to close the fire window, giving your firebase a cover save for the return fire.

My standard advancing troop will be bladestorm dire avengers, they're just too good to leave at home. With the jetbike screen, I don't need to put them in transports... which means more bodies on the field, which means more units to play with, which means more fun.

I might play around with striking scorpions deploying from board edges, that's just cool and deserves some toying around with.

Shining Spears, never a reason not to have them along for the ride. Either them or the flying seer council of doom, which I love to death even if other people think they're a terrible point sink. They maul the big stuff (zillas and tanks) and soak up enemy fire like nobody's business.

The Dude
13-03-2008, 07:05
I'm sorry Stezerok, but you seem to have posted this in the wrong forum. Either that or you've mis-spelled the word "negative" ;)



I will be back with some constructive comments later, I'm off home now :D

cybercaine
13-03-2008, 07:17
Well. . . I think you're going to see some 10 man w/ Spiritseer Wraithguard units w/ conceal. You have an incredibly durable unit that can run quickly with the new run rule. And they are durable w/ T6 and a 3+ w/ a 5+ cover. And they're fearless. . . and troops when fielded in that manner. Pathfinders are going to be a must buy imo. As a troop choice, they are incredibly resilient against shooting attacks and able to hold objectives in or around your deployment zone. And with what might be the changes to sniper rifles, you're looking at the ability to kill a lot of elites very fast with these guys.
Dire avengers are still going to be very killy. . . and double as objective grabbers. And they're going to be fairly mobile behind a screen of wraithguard. Add in a farseer like Eldrad for some re-rolly goodness and you have a fairly hard to kill advance.
And I think Wraithlords will come back to usage. These guys are still sick. T8 is nothing to sneeze at. And these guys will be able to do some double duty. . . with the ability to pack vehicle hunting weapons along with flamers to deal with the hordy armies. And the monstrous creature rules are as favorable as ever.
And then you have your pick of whatever else you want. Any of the other units can serve any number of purposes with the units I've already described. . . except for striking scorpions that will still suck. . .
Banshees, Harlequins. . . these guys will still be able to hold flanks as counter-charge type options.
What I don't think you'll see. . . 2 min squads of DA and 3 falcons, harlequins, and an HQ. . . this is dead. I don't think you'll see 3 falcons ever again should the PDF come out. I still think 1 might find it's way into a list here or there as the hard-to-kill transport that doubles as a slight killing machine depending on defensive weapons. But the above mentioned list will suffer in all the objective based missions.
I think the future is bright for Eldar. . . maybe not as bright as it is for Orks, Nidz (for the same reasons. . . as it is going to be very difficult to keep these guys off of objectives) or even Tau IMO (people will laugh at this one. . . but I think Tau might have 1 of the top 3 lists should the edition come out like the PDF). . . but bright none the less.

Aegis
13-03-2008, 07:28
I think the future is bright for Eldar. . . maybe not as bright as it is for Orks, Nidz (for the same reasons. . . as it is going to be very difficult to keep these guys off of objectives) or even Tau IMO (people will laugh at this one. . . but I think Tau might have 1 of the top 3 lists should the edition come out like the PDF). . . but bright none the less.

Ditto, my test game was against Tau and marker drones are the new thing. Being able to move and fire marker lights is awesome. This is why I still want some extremely fast assault units in my force, like shining spears or a mounted council. Get them worried about something other than my troops!

Eldrad, good as he is, is going to be a little less popular now that regular farseers aren't as warp-fried-me-brain as they used to be.

In the end, I think eldar stil have the best aces ready to play. Our troop selection is diverse and powerful, so there's still a variety of tools available in a troop heavy army.

cybercaine
13-03-2008, 07:39
In the end, I think eldar stil have the best aces ready to play. Our troop selection is diverse and powerful, so there's still a variety of tools available in a troop heavy army.

Ork troops are incredibly diverse. . . with boyz, nobz, meganobz, bikers, grotz all potentially counting as troops. . . add in vehicles or bikers + mob rule and you have incredibly fast, hard to break swarms that grab objectives.
And that last part can be said about Nidz. . . but add in stealers coming in from board edges and you have a scary proposition.
And finally. . . DA has some diverse choices as well with the ability to make RW squads or DW squads troops along with the standard fare. Perhaps the only army with terminators as troop choices and thus objective grabbers. . . and fast bikes in 3-man combat squads as objective grabbers.
Eldar have diversity. . . that's one of the reason the future is bright for Eldar with the 5th pdf. I think, however, had they developed that codex even later, we might have seen HQ choices affecting troop choice (perhaps phoenix lords making a 1of squad a troop choice).
I have hope for Chaos as well. . . but that's for another forum discussion.
I think it pretty clear that when these codexes were developed, a PDF like ruleset was taken into consideration. I think that's one of the reasons that the newer codexes have had some flexibility with troop choices. And I think that helps out the newer codexes quite a bit.

Hrafn
13-03-2008, 08:33
Soooo good to see positive thread! Let's try to keep it constructive, guys!

Well, being that I never really jumped the boat on the skimmers-circus, my army will not see that much of a difference, I suspect. Since I have always preferred Scorpions to Banshees, I will continue to use these, which certainly will not get any worse in 5th with both Infiltrate and run.
Though I might look into Wraithguard sometime. I have a few of the minis laying around, and with the run and screening rule they become more interesting. Not to mention that with 10 of them, we'll have perhaps the toughest scoring unit in the game!

An interesting thing is the balance shift between War Walkers and Wraithlord. As far as I understand it, the new walker rules makes it obvious why the Wraithlord has twinlinked weaponry instead of two seperate weapons like War Walkers (another indication that Codex Eldar was written with 5th in mind). The Wraithlord will now be more mobile than most other walkers, making it interesting as part of an assault. But God, I am glad I have magnetized my War Walkers' weaponry, as they will need a little reconfiguration now;)

I am also looking forward to testing Support Platforms, namely Nightspinners. An old, cheap favorite of mine, I suspect the new blast rules will make them really nasty. Sure, they might scatter, but with three templates from a battery, they will lay waste to lightly armoured hordes :evilgrin:

Halfpast_Yellow
13-03-2008, 08:57
Eldar is definitely going to be fine given how flexible the list is.

We should see a lot more Waveserpents in action given the rumoured big overall improvements to the package. Crashing, 75% wounding and entanglement replaced by 66% for T3 and a pin check. The extra potential to shoot due to saving throws, more dangerous tank shocking and the new ramming all helps it's case to be useful too. The proposed reserve rules, combining with ICs and new dedicated vehicle rules are icing as well.

Scorpions will probably see a bit more action in people's lists. The 3+ save may be fairly critical in combat and could make them a safer transport unit. The ability to flank would be interesting.

Will probably see more 'standard' Ranger units and less Pathfinder upgraded ones. As an Alaitoc player Pathfinders aren't that much better now (though it's not easy to convince people of that) and the more 4+ cover there is for both the Eldar player and the opponent, added rending and ability to take a 2+ cover save with "get down!" eats away at the value of the paying for the extra AP1s and 2+ to cover.

Antitank will need a rethink. Would have been interesting if Brightlances were given AP1 when it was rumoured way back they might get it. Now with cover saves they seem to lose even more umph, though with str 8 horrible vs AV14 they're fortunate in some respects. Fire dragons still the premiere AT unit, more debate on the merits of the Tank shot exarch upgrade, and the BS5 Crackshot firepike exarch for the last word in 5th edition ranged AT.
Serpent Wraithguard more of an option. Hawks benefit from the general attractiveness of CC anti-tank, and should enjoy screening. Fusion Blaster Autarchs good. Vibrocannons less good.

Phoenix Lords will be more attractive for their points. Vypers much better.

I use 5 Troops slots now already in my 1500 points, so my army should be fine with that. Looking forward to it.

gutstikk
13-03-2008, 11:50
I also use 4-5 troops choices almost every game as well, and will find this change does not affect my list as much as my playstyle. Many times my troops are some of my most important combat units, but as I've found during playtest [vs orks!] it can be rather hard to keep enough of them alive. I think this will cause my Guardian Defenders to become an extremely important defensive unit, coupled with pathfinders and to an extent Jetbikes, which will still be useful in conjunction with non-area terrain.

What I am looking forward to is how my Avengers now will be much better at counterstrikes. As a troops choice, the opponent will want to engage them, meaning that instead of having to risk breaking cover to go after the enemy I should be able to hang back and let them come to me. This is a huge change as it allows them to stay alive much longer, and two teams working in tandem should be a very competent battlegroup [especially with a farseer along to doom things].

I can't state enough how much I like the changes to Scorps and Warwalkers. I often field at least one unit of each. I have just bought some extra scorps to up my unit to 9 models or allow me to field two units of 6. I would like to add to the walkers, but I'm using an extensively converted version and so for the time being don't want to be bothered converting up two more like it. Plus, they used the old chassis, which is hard to find now.

I will continue fielding my 165 pt falcon unless the changes to dedicated transports actually come to pass, and then it will be a tough call. I have generally preferred the serpent over the falcon due to increased cargo room, lower net cost and decent survivability. I will probably still use the falcon though, as allowing any unit to ride it in from reserves is a useful ability that will allow for several deployment configurations within a single army list. Star Engines are almost a must-have upgrade.

Vypers will be awesome. Mine have grown missile launchers to complement their shuriken cannons. I have playtested them and they performed exceptionally well; cover saves are a great help to these fragile but deadly vehicles.

Harlies actually are a bit less effective in the new rules in my experience, and will be need to be given very specialized jobs rather than just killing everything. A unit of 30 orks swallowed them whole with the changes to wound allocation; there is basically no way that a squad of harlies can kill enough models in such a large unit to avoid return attacks.

Fire Dragons are still good; they get a bit easier to target and therefore kill but as they generally will not be a scoring unit it is not such a huge loss.

These are the ones I remember off the top of my head. There's a lot more, but in my experience it has been really easy to adapt and I'm looking forward to some cool new tactics being developed. I hope those of you who have tried the pdf out have had as good an experience as I have.

Mandragola
13-03-2008, 12:52
I'm going to start using the 3 ancient forge world wave serpents that have been in a box since 4th edition came out. These are going to be the best transport vehicles in the game again, as they were in 3rd. They aren't going to be the godlike weapons that falcons are now but they will be able to move 12" and fire a twin linked bright lance while being extremely hard to kill. At 165 points they won't be cheap, but they will be a proper tank as part of a troops choice.

I'm debating what to put inside the wave serpents. Storm guardians might work well, with either a couple of fusion blasters or flamers and a warlock with destructor or enhance. Dire avengers could also work, but I think the mass of templates from the guardians would probably do more damage than the shuriken fire and the guardians can threaten vehicles a bit too.

I might take some path finders and jet bikes for some cheap units to capture objectives. The jet bikes have probably suffered too much by the new line of sight rules though. Path finders will love the base 4+ cover save of woods and rending sniper rifles will give them even more utility against MEQs and MCs.

I might get a squad or two of elites. Fire dragons are probably better than ever. Striking scorpions might just work with a flank march but probably not consistently enough.

For an HQ I'll probably take an autarch or farseer, trying to keep the points down a bit. An Avatar, now that it can run, looks quite a lot more fun.

I doubt I'd be taking any fast attack or heavy support. The wave serpents already do the job of both really.

I honestly think that eldar could be one of the most powerful armies around in 5th edition, just as they are now.

Kaminari
13-03-2008, 13:00
The screening will bring the biggest change to our playstyle in my opinion. You will have to search for ways to get behind the enemy's lines and attack valuable (scoring) units. The Eldar are still a very mobile list (despite being a bit slower with the new skimers) and should be able to easily overcome screening tactics by outmaneuvering the opponent. The mobility of Vypers for example is one part to get past it, the other one is the new infiltrating rule.

Coming in from any edge of the board will force tough decisions during setup in the deployent areas. Even better the Autarch allows us to early use this function, when the opponent has just started to move. Even worse when such fragile troops like the Warwalkers are now guaranteed at least one volley of fire from their defensive weapons (6 plasma rockets anyone?) and care less from which boardedge to enter due to the range of their weapons (defensive benefit as well).

The Scorpions get a huge benefit from running as well as improved cover saves (threatening enemy gunlines) as well as the option to approach via Serpent from a random table edge.

The improve cover saves will make our high volume of fire weapons much more desirable and it might see the return of the dreaded Flamer Squad of Doom which can flame opposing troops from their objective in cover and right afterwards occupy it for themselves as troop selection. Flamers are going to replace several Plasmaguns I suppose especially with fearless horde armies like Tyranids and Orks being able contest objectives for a long, long time.

Right now I think it will shape the Eldar armies more towards the supposed "Craftworld Style Armies" due to the emphasis of troops and the specific ways of the big Craftworlds in the troops selection.

Aegis
13-03-2008, 17:18
Anti-horde is going to become a very real consideration, and more of a focus in next-gen lists. Orks and Nids (and tau) have great basic troops that are very very good at what they do. Not that I want to sell space marines short, but I'd rather fight space marines with a list tooled to kill hordes than fight hordes with a low rate-of-fire, high-AP list.

In general, model count is going to increase across the board. There will be more enemies to deal with in the same point games than there were before, but on the bright side, they'll generally be weaker troops than all heavy/elite lists.

So, refining my general next gen list... jetbike screen covering the front with the collapse-able fire lane, with a fortune/doom seer buffing the bikes and dooming targets. Behind them, two squads of BS Dire Avengers. Dark Reapers sitting out of cover in the deployment zone, pathfinders sitting in cover over the objective.

Pathfinders shooting into a doomed unit are going to be getting a good amount of rending/AP1 wounds. Dire Avengers bladestorming into a doomed unit are going to be sick. So, doom at point is going to be central to me.

I'm torn between a falcon/firedragon combo and a pair of fire prisms. I was using them wrong in the last playtest game, they were horribly ineffective. So I want to try them again.

Fable
13-03-2008, 19:24
Essentially the biggest bonus for the Eldar is the versatility of our troops choices. In a standard tourney list I would probably start off filling up six troop slots. Wraithguard, 2 x DA, pathfinders, guardians and Jetbike gaurdians will probably be my base build and everything else will just be for flavor. That allows us a lot of versatility without falling too shy for scoring options. I don't know of another list that has that same kind of diversity (tough/ flexible /annoying /numerous /fast tough) outside of the Ork codex. That's not a bad thing.

Stezerok
14-03-2008, 02:13
Wow, I'm really surprised by the turnout so far thanks so much everybody! (and even more surprising, the lack of bad things coming up about 5th is really refreshing!) I guess for me, I've started finding as I've begun writing lists, that it's difficult to fit in everything I want to, and even feel I need to in some cases. Not to long ago I was trying to write a 1000 point list, and given that I wanted at least 3 troop choices, it was really hard to try and squeeze in a CC unit and some AT (the AT in particular because tanks will be so tough now...). So I just wanted to hear what everyone else's thoughts are thus far. Also please feel free to ask about a rule change that will affect us, to start discussion on other matters than just the Troops thing.

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

The Dude
14-03-2008, 05:54
I really think the flexibility of the Eldar list will come fully into fruition in 5th edition. The sheer number of different units in the Troops section offers so many possible configurations.

This has been the case for most of the “new school” codices, with many Elites choices moved to Troops. It happened with Chaos, even Orks got a bit more flexibility in their Troops Selection with Trucks open to all Boyz and HQ selections bumping certain units to Troops. It’s really only the “rigid” armies like Tau, Guard, Necrons and Marines that I’d expect to see buck this trend.

It’s like a meal in a way. Marines are more like a Steak in that you can get different sauce and sides but it’s still the same steak. Eldar on the other hand, are more like a pasta dish, where you can choose your sauce and side dish, but the paste itself could be fettuccini, ravioli, spaghetti, penne etc. etc. etc.

I can’t see anything in the rumoured rules that will devastate the Eldar. The only thing that really affects them in any real sense is the change to SMF, but we can all agree that that is not a bad thing.

J-man
14-03-2008, 06:47
Loving the positive vibes from this thread haha. Grats to Stezerok for starting something constructive. Allow me to clear something up here with regard to the screening rule. You may not believe me but it doesn't really matter cos these rules aren't set in concrete anyway but here goes...

The 'screening' rule that so many people have been citing is in fact a misinterpretation. The rule is that if a unit is firing past tanks or other models their weapons cannot hurt, the intervening models offer a 4+ cover saving throw. So wraithlords may screen, wraithguard never will.

With the proposed 5th ed changes I'm planning on taking 4 troops choices (in stead of my previous 2) including a 10-strong wraithguard squad, DAs, a small jetbike squad and a small pathfinder squad. I predict that other players will follow suit in the expansion of the troops components of their armies. The ability to be able to remove (even more) scores of boys, guardsmen, gaunts/genestealers and kroot as well as MEQs, in the course of a 6-turn game seems likely to become a necessity for all players. I for one look forward to the challenge and am excited at the prospect of seeing more armies return to their roots, where elites may become as rare as their name suggests.

Let's keep this sweet sweet ball rolling X-)

The Dude
14-03-2008, 08:47
J-man, I've seen you say this before but forgot to reply.

This is indeed how it appears in the PDF, but in this thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126571)Harry revealed that certain changes have since been made. ;)

Battle-Brother Wags
14-03-2008, 13:45
To be honest, I can't wait for 5ed to come out. I am just now really getting into alot of aspects of the hobby that I've never been into before such as painting, building the terrain, and finances have improved enough that I can regularly buy new models now. Unfortunately so many things are going to be changing (usefullness of various units/how terrain of various sorts works, etc) that I don't want to spend hours building a piece of terrain that won't serve its intended function or buying models that I'll end up not using.

But thats not a rant or being negative, thats me being the equivalent of a little boy counting down the days until Christmas!

One thing that I'm very glad of is that I've been using Wraithlords alot for the past few months and I think they will become more prevalent in 5ed and I'm glad I'm already using them, that way I don't feel like I'm just following the fad, but simply doing what I've always done.

I also think that for those who want to run skimmers, wave serpents will be awesome. Yes, they are certainly killable, but if you use them as TRANSPORTS, which means not alot of weaponry upgrades, it'll be easier to hide them, then deliver the cargo, then if it dies, its not so much of a loss. But I do think that with the changes to the vehicle damage table, cover for vehicles, and etc skimmer transports will be kick-butt. The only problem is we have to change the way we view the WS. It probably shouldn't be considered anthing but a transport. Take spirit stones of course and possibly the boost-your-engines upgrade (which for the life of me I can't remember its name), but no underslung ShuriCannon upgrade and probably the TL ShuriCannon for the top as the cheapest choice.

This is me wanting 5ed to come now! I'm thrilled that we only have to wait until June/July instead of Sep/Oct. And yes, the BRB for me. I want to see what fluff changes and have the full gamut of special mission scenarios and all.

BTW, two unrelated questions but I dont' know where else to ask them -

1. Any word on when the new guardian jetbikes are coming out? The prototype is in the rumour roundup but there is no mention of date.
2. How far in advance does GW give sneak peaks to such things as rules updates and such? Is it plausible that we'll get a last set of rumours through that are closer to the actual end product similar to what happens with the codexes as they come out? (sorry, that was three questions, I guess.)

EDIT: Wow, I'm so excited I had to go back and fix about a million typos . . .

Iwaldi
14-03-2008, 17:29
Just a question, aren't wraithguards elites? How are they going to be scoring or fill troop slots?

Gauthic
14-03-2008, 17:38
Just a question, aren't wraithguards elites? How are they going to be scoring or fill troop slots?

A full squad (10 Wraithguard) count as a troops choice in the new Eldar Codex :)

Sarigar
14-03-2008, 21:33
Based off the PDF, a few things are sticking out that the Eldar seem to work well with:

-Farseers; no more worries about instant death from Perils of the Warp
-Autarchs: Escalation dumped in favor of placing units in reserve. The Autarch's bonus will still apply and can lead to more coordinated attacks.
-Scorpions may be held in Reserve and flank your opponent.
-Checking range for shooting and removing casualties help Guardians w/ Catapults.
-Meltaguns are brutal against vehicles and Eldar can get Fire Dragons. Dragon Exarchs can get Crack shot to negate cover saves, specifically vehicles that get cover saves
-Warwalkers can flank and get cover saves. I'm really hoping this comes true as 3 Warwalkers with 6 Eldar Missile Launchers will be a sight. Put them in cover and cast Guide and Fortune.
-Falcons are still hard as nails to bring down.
-Wave Serpents become a bit more difficult to destroy.
-I no longer have to worry about the dreaded first turn beat down if terrain didn't allow me to hide skimmers (keep them in reserve if you know you're not getting first turn)
-Harlies are still dangerous when combined with Doom.
-I can look again at fielding Banshees and Scorpions w/o thinking I'm handicapping myself by not taking Harlies.
-Nothing in my 3500 point Eldar army will really be shelved with 5th edition.

Kirasu
14-03-2008, 21:35
It's going to be very interesting to see how people dislodge a unit with 10 wraithguard with fortune from an objective.. if a squad of CC troops is nearby to protect them

Granted its 350pts base but if there are 3 objectives, just dump your points into wraithguard and it would be very hard to kill 30 of them..

Will be interesting

zealot!
14-03-2008, 22:57
no one has mentioned star engines? what do you think about those?

so far, not much has changed for me. i seriously think guardians are going to be one of the best troop choices in the game. definately will be taking 2 squads of pathfinders every game, as well. 2+ save is worth it... i fail 3+'s like 1/3 of the time :D

also, i agree with sarigar... it will be interesting to keep skimmers actually off the table so they dont get smoked first turn..

oh snap!? what about eldrads divination??? isnt that like,,, nuts now?

J-man
15-03-2008, 01:38
Thanks Dude for setting me right there. @zealot I'm definitely taking star engines for my wave serpent now, we get to have the fastest vehicles in the game by far! But what makes guardians one of the best troops choices in the game now?

Wraithbored
15-03-2008, 01:47
Finally! A Positive non whiney thread. I applaud you guys. And yeah 5th edition will just bring changes to the armies we play and not nerfings all around. And heck what we got was a test pdf, who knows perhaps the 5th edition will be even more glorious.

zealot!
15-03-2008, 04:48
as far as guardians go:
-troops
-heavy weapon w/move and fire
-FLEET (pros will trounce runners)
-8 pts a piece!
-assault 2 'bolter' weapon. every fast army will be literally in your face first or 2nd turn. if you have a fresh squad of guardians with an 'embolden' warlock and your choice of heavy weapon (scatter laser here) they'll have to choose wisely.
-high base initiative

id like to point out that the guardians also have to be used wisely! some people just compare points cost to stats without realizing in-game potential...

Sarigar
15-03-2008, 11:19
If you get to go first, Eldrad can be really mean. However, it's really no use if you are going 2nd. No big deal as he will stay in my army list. Although, I may drop the Avatar for a 2nd Farseer or Autarch.

Overall, I've been pretty happy with the games I've playing using my Eldar with the PDF rules. The games were pretty refreshing and presented a lot of new challenges. Fun games and suprisingly no debates on the rules, despite them being only early test copies.

Elanthanis
15-03-2008, 11:28
I've run a half-mech Aspect Army, and I've gotta say, I see no trouble with any of the changes. Unlike most mechs, I have no Falcons in my army (three wave serpents, however), and I have no Harlequins, but do have Banshees and Scorpions. I now get to stop hearing people criticizing me for fielding a "true" swordwind without harlies, and get the added benefits of the improved reserve rules.

Edit: Also, anyone who didn't field Dark Reapers before had no idea what a tempest armed Exarch with crack shot could do to units in cover (ignores cover, rerolls failed wounds).