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kendaop
13-03-2008, 04:43
I was browsing through wikipedia's version of the 40k universe and I noticed mention that the Lion is in fact alive in the middle of the Rock, waiting to come out of stasis. I knew this was a popular theory but could someone please tell me where to find this concrete fact?

Hellebore
13-03-2008, 05:17
Smackbang in the middle of the 2nd ed Angels of Death codex.

Hellebore

ColonelLindsay
13-03-2008, 07:27
What is said though is that unbeknownst to Luther and the D.A. and known only by the Watchers in the Dark and possibly the Emperor himself is that Lion El Jonson sleeps in stasis in the deepest part of the Rock

Michael M.
13-03-2008, 07:44
If i remember rigth, itīs also in the actual C: DA

Deus Mechanicus
13-03-2008, 08:14
If i remember rigth, itīs also in the actual C: DA

nope only that luthor is in there. But he does say that "the lion is close"

kendaop
13-03-2008, 15:36
Yeah, 4th ed DA codex hints that Johnson might be alive but doesn't state it matter of factly, and IIRC, 3rd ed codex didn't really mention anything. So, 2nd ed codex might have it? TO EBAY!!!!

pookie
13-03-2008, 15:52
Yeah, 4th ed DA codex hints that Johnson might be alive but doesn't state it matter of factly, and IIRC, 3rd ed codex didn't really mention anything. So, 2nd ed codex might have it? TO EBAY!!!!

2nd has it deffinatly!

elusiveintrovert
13-03-2008, 16:28
I have a question, I have 2nd-4th ed versions of the DA codex and I know he is hidden within the Rock, however where does it say he is in stasis? All it says is that the watchers have taken him and one day he will return.

Is this just a general presumption that translated over from Guilleman?

pookie
13-03-2008, 16:41
I have a question, I have 2nd-4th ed versions of the DA codex and I know he is hidden within the Rock, however where does it say he is in stasis? All it says is that the watchers have taken him and one day he will return.

Is this just a general presumption that translated over from Guilleman?

would have thought so, although i agree i dont remember it saying that.

Light of the Emperor
13-03-2008, 17:31
I think a WD mentioned it in some little paragraph. The Lion is said to be sleeping so perhaps that translates to stasis. Also, with 10,000 years passed, he would have aged rediculously so a stasis bubble would make sense.

reds8n
13-03-2008, 18:17
Is it not also right at the end of the Angels of Darkness novel too ?

Victomorga
13-03-2008, 21:50
1) he wouldn't have aged without stasis. SM get stronger and harder as they get older, and primarchs would only be that much tougher.

2) check the bibliography on the DA wikipedia page. the article only sites WD 225, codecies 2-4, and the gav thorpe book. it's probably in one or even two of those.

3) personally, I think he's in there.

nedsta
13-03-2008, 22:29
i can remember something in 2nd ed Angels of death after saying that Luther was in the rock that there was another cell deep in the rock,that the inner circle aren't aware of but the watchers are,that contains the lion himself in status

Spider
13-03-2008, 23:04
1) he wouldn't have aged without stasis. SM get stronger and harder as they get older, and primarchs would only be that much tougher.




The last i heard the Primarchs weren't immortal. And spacemarines don't get stronger and harder as they age. Just older, slower and wiser. And eventually dead.


And until GW retcon it away, the Lion is most defiantely locked/sealed away in the Rock.

cpl_hicks
13-03-2008, 23:14
i can remember something in 2nd ed Angels of death after saying that Luther was in the rock that there was another cell deep in the rock,that the inner circle aren't aware of but the watchers are,that contains the lion himself in status


Its mentioned on the last page of Angels of Darkness (http://www.amazon.com/Angels-Darkness-Warhammer-40-000/dp/0743443497), which is i believe being reprinted this year.

elusiveintrovert
13-03-2008, 23:15
i can remember something in 2nd ed Angels of death after saying that Luther was in the rock that there was another cell deep in the rock,that the inner circle aren't aware of but the watchers are,that contains the lion himself in status

"...For hidden inside a secluded, unreachable chamber deep within the heart of what was once the planet Caliban, Lion El'Jonson lies sleeping, waiting with the watchers in the dark for that time when he will be needed once again to defend the Imperium from its enemies." Codex:Angels of Death, pg 14

Nothing about the Lion being in stasis, just sleeping in an unreachable chamber. It does however say that Luther is kept in stasis.


1) he wouldn't have aged without stasis. SM get stronger and harder as they get older, and primarchs would only be that much tougher.

2) check the bibliography on the DA wikipedia page. the article only sites WD 225, codecies 2-4, and the gav thorpe book. it's probably in one or even two of those.

3) personally, I think he's in there.

Nothing about him being in stasis in any of the codexes or codecies, whichever term you prefer. I also don't remember seeing it in "Angels of Darkness" either.

I do not have access to a white dwarf 225 though. Can anyone with a WD 225 check and see if it mentions the Lion in stasis?

elusiveintrovert
13-03-2008, 23:18
The last i heard the Primarchs weren't immortal. And spacemarines don't get stronger and harder as they age. Just older, slower and wiser. And eventually dead.


And until GW retcon it away, the Lion is most defiantely locked/sealed away in the Rock.

Its not that I don't think he's not in there, I just don't understand why everyone keeps saying that he is in stasis, when all that is written is that he is "sleeping".:confused:

sleeping =/= stasis

cpl_hicks
13-03-2008, 23:23
Nothing about him being in stasis in any of the codexes or codecies, whichever term you prefer. I also don't remember seeing it in "Angels of Darkness" either.

I do not have access to a white dwarf 225 though. Can anyone with a WD 225 check and see if it mentions the Lion in stasis?

Sorry my bad i ALWAYS get this wrong its from the Eye of Terror Novel, quoting my self (http://warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2054977&postcount=61)

nedsta
13-03-2008, 23:35
ahhhh thats the badger,well its been a good few years since i've seen angels of death,knew it was something like that though :D

biggreengribbly
14-03-2008, 00:51
"Sleeping"

I know a Primarch's anatomy is as far away from a normal Astartes as ours would be from a Marine's, but could it be referring to something like the sus-an membrane state of suspended animation? Rather than stasis, or true sleep.

Vesica
14-03-2008, 01:15
I hope he is alive, but im not to sure.

maybe the sleeping is the same sleep you tell a young child that a grandparent is in when they die.

DantesInferno
14-03-2008, 01:22
"...For hidden inside a secluded, unreachable chamber deep within the heart of what was once the planet Caliban, Lion El'Jonson lies sleeping, waiting with the watchers in the dark for that time when he will be needed once again to defend the Imperium from its enemies." Codex:Angels of Death, pg 14

Nothing about the Lion being in stasis, just sleeping in an unreachable chamber. It does however say that Luther is kept in stasis.

Dark Angel 1: E's dead, that's what's wrong with it!

Dark Angel 2: No, no, 'e's uh,...he's resting.

Dark Angel 1: Now that's what I call a dead Primarch.

Dark Angel 2: No, no.....No, 'e's stunned!

Dark Angel 1: 'E's bleedin' demised!

Dark Angel 2: No no! 'E's pining for the Calabanite fjords!

Dark Angel 1 'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This Primarch is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't hidden 'im in the middle of the Rock, 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-PRIMARCH!!

(With apologies to Dark Angels fans and Monty Python)

icegreentea
14-03-2008, 01:24
Maybe he's not in a "true" stasis field. But however the Lion is sleeping, its functionally like stasis, so we may as well call it stasis. And apparently only the Emperor and the Watchers in the Dark know he's there. Luther is kept imprisoned and in stasis almost all the time. Every couple of centuries they take him out of stasis to torture/interrogate/attempt to 'save him'. Kind of like how Bjorn wakes up every couple of centuries and just gets hammered before blacking out and sleeping away a couple hundred years.

Vesica
14-03-2008, 02:34
Dark Angel 1: E's dead, that's what's wrong with it!

Dark Angel 2: No, no, 'e's uh,...he's resting.

Dark Angel 1: Now that's what I call a dead Primarch.

Dark Angel 2: No, no.....No, 'e's stunned!

Dark Angel 1: 'E's bleedin' demised!

Dark Angel 2: No no! 'E's pining for the Calabanite fjords!

Dark Angel 1 'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This Primarch is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't hidden 'im in the middle of the Rock, 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-PRIMARCH!!

(With apologies to Dark Angels fans and Monty Python)

LMFAO, that was great

Imperialis_Dominatus
14-03-2008, 04:20
The last i heard the Primarchs weren't immortal. And spacemarines don't get stronger and harder as they age. Just older, slower and wiser. And eventually dead.

I've never really heard much on aged Marines (the hazards of their profession usually get to them before old age does), although Dante (though part of a Chapter with generally long-lived Marines), according to Lexicanum (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Dante), has ruled his Chapter for 1,100 years and was 1,900 years when he ascended that title.

I've also never heard anything either way about Primarchs. I think them being immortal isn't beyond comprehension given their general awesomeness.


Dark Angel 1: E's dead, that's what's wrong with it!

Dark Angel 2: No, no, 'e's uh,...he's resting.

Dark Angel 1: Now that's what I call a dead Primarch.

Dark Angel 2: No, no.....No, 'e's stunned!

Dark Angel 1: 'E's bleedin' demised!

Dark Angel 2: No no! 'E's pining for the Calabanite fjords!

Dark Angel 1 'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This Primarch is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't hidden 'im in the middle of the Rock, 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-PRIMARCH!!

(With apologies to Dark Angels fans and Monty Python)

I've never even seen Monty Python, but that was great.

elusiveintrovert
14-03-2008, 04:46
"Sleeping"

I know a Primarch's anatomy is as far away from a normal Astartes as ours would be from a Marine's, but could it be referring to something like the sus-an membrane state of suspended animation? Rather than stasis, or true sleep.

I assumed it would be a similar form of suspended animation to the one caused by that nifty gland. Anyway, stasis and suspended animation are not the same thing:eyebrows:, and most everyone says stasis like the stasis fields that Luther and Guilleman occupy, and it just really irks me.:mad:

I was just wandering if it actually said that he was in a "stasis field" anywhere, as I have heard it said so many times. I know he's alive and in the Rock, but I just very much doubt that he is in "stasis" as opposed to being in some kind of comatose suspended animation like state that marines go into when critically injured.

pepe5454
14-03-2008, 20:36
I think you can assume that he is in some sort of stasis keeping him alive (sleeping). I mean they have a tube for Luther you think the watchers and whoever else high up enough to know would rather keep Luther in Stasis than the Lion? I think if they needed it for the Lion they would take Luthers so they probably either don't need it for the Lion or have another one.

darth mortis
15-03-2008, 00:06
i think as someone said earlier he is in suspended animation from that nifty gland and so not ageing although this type of hyebrnation could be done by marines for a while before they come out of it maybe there is no time limit on a primarch ???? it would not be out of spec for a primarch to be able to do it maybe cocoon himself which could be why he survived those first few years before he could walk on caliban?

Orinoco
15-03-2008, 00:09
I don't think any specifics are given as to his condition. As far as I know the background featured in angels of death and other sources state simply he is deep in The Rock. He could well be using the sus-an membrane (or whatever the suspended animation one is) and/or a stasis field.

nedsta
15-03-2008, 11:04
I just got the mental picture of a marine walking in a pet shop carrying el'jonson in a big cage as soon as i read the monty dark angels LMFAO

Dragonlv8
15-03-2008, 11:32
A primarch alive.
IF they could safely say that without chaos rapeing the place where he is and he was walking around then the imperium gets a massive moral boost.

Jaq Draco
15-03-2008, 13:54
Index Astartes basically restates the whole legend again about Luther being left behind developing his jealousy and the DA's return to Caliban and the aftermath

Luther is still alive, the top ranking DA's know that, he is chained up in a dungeon deep beneath the rock, saying "the watchers in the dark took him" over and over



deeper still

is everyones favourite bloke

Lion

Xollob
15-03-2008, 15:01
I think a WD mentioned it in some little paragraph. The Lion is said to be sleeping so perhaps that translates to stasis. Also, with 10,000 years passed, he would have aged rediculously so a stasis bubble would make sense.

No he wouldnt have, Primarchs like space marines dont age, just look at abbadon for example.

nedsta
15-03-2008, 20:05
No he wouldnt have, Primarchs like space marines dont age, just look at abbadon for example.

Marines do age,Fluff-wise its only because the traitor legions are in Eye of Terror that they don't age due to time flowing differently there,same as the 13th company

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-03-2008, 20:19
Well, ol' Zeke is a Chaos Space Marine who hangs out in the Eye of Terror... they've generally been known to ignore all questions of age.

EDIT: Curses. Beat to it by a quarter of an hour. Damn tabs for distracting me with other threads.

Magister
15-03-2008, 20:36
I think a WD mentioned it in some little paragraph. The Lion is said to be sleeping so perhaps that translates to stasis. Also, with 10,000 years passed, he would have aged rediculously so a stasis bubble would make sense.

But he primarches don't age do they? They're supposedly immortal. Unless pinched with eyebrow tweezers.

DantesInferno
15-03-2008, 22:04
But he primarches don't age do they? They're supposedly immortal. Unless pinched with eyebrow tweezers.

Nup. According to the 2nd ed Codex Imperialis: "Although long lived, the Primarchs were not immortal...." (p20)

The only reason everyone thinks the Primarchs and Astartes are immortal during the Great Crusade is that none of them have been around long enough to die of old age.

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-03-2008, 23:36
Well, to put that quote in context: Why was it there? (I don't have the Imperialis Codex) Was that an explanation as to why the Primarchs were gone in the year 40k? Because now we have more... comprehensive explanations for most of the Primarchs.

What I mean to say is: the ellipse at the end of that statement; what comes later?

I'm not saying it's wrong now, just that it needs a context.

DantesInferno
15-03-2008, 23:57
Well, to put that quote in context: Why was it there? (I don't have the Imperialis Codex) Was that an explanation as to why the Primarchs were gone in the year 40k? Because now we have more... comprehensive explanations for most of the Primarchs.

What I mean to say is: the ellipse at the end of that statement; what comes later?

I'm not saying it's wrong now, just that it needs a context.

It's talking specifically about the loyalist Primarchs who survived the Heresy, and their efforts to rebuild the shattered Imperium.

"Although long lived, the Primarchs were not immortal and the last of their kind finally died after fourteen hundred years. Many extraordinary legends are told of the deeds of the Primarchs, many of which are preserved by the lore of the Marine Chapters."

It certainly doesn't seem inconsistent with our later, more comprehensive explanations, so I'm inclined to go along with it.

Imperialis_Dominatus
16-03-2008, 00:00
Okay then. I see where you're coming from. although the current 'fates' of each Primarch seems to indicate that GW would like us to consider them immortal- everyone's either died violently, disappeared, or is in a (really) long term coma.

It does seem far-fetched that they would be immortal without some serious Warp tampering.

ICEMANQ
16-03-2008, 08:57
Maybe they are immortal.

SPeaking of Primarchs - GD Chicago Ferrus Manus primarch model, ugh. Great paint job, but I can't see Ferrus running around looking like a glorified techmarine. Since his hands can transmute things and all.

Imperialis_Dominatus
16-03-2008, 12:56
There was a whole group of Primarch models this year. I think it was a coordinated thing.

sirius16
16-03-2008, 17:39
It is stated at the end of the "Eye of terror" novel that The Lion is at the center of the rock, not angels of darkness.
And bear in mind that an astartes (and therefore a primarch aswell) has a sus an membrane which allows him to enter a state of suspended animation voluntarily or when they are badly injured.

Typharius
21-03-2008, 03:25
I am 100% sure that the Primarchs untainted are immortal, they are made directly from the emperors gene stock for crying out loud. I totally agree also about GW suggesting said immortality in the case of missing primarchs. The primarchs were like the emperors sons and space marines are merely humans with genetic influence of those great beings. It simply isn't nearly the same. Also it is suggested the Emperor created the Primarchs via manipulating the warp or ruinous powers "why not make 1000 Horus's" to quote HH Novels. Suggesting there was some extreme trade in creating the Primarchs, not to be done again. I also believe the Emperor intended the Primarchs to be all the elements of his will keeping the entire galaxy in order for all time with him, after all even the Emperor couldn't be everywhere at once. I would be horrendously disappointed if GW ever came out and said that the Primarchs were not immortal =/

Imperialis_Dominatus
21-03-2008, 06:37
Just read the beginning of Horus Rising and they are seen as, to all intents and purposes, immortal, including the Astartes. Just like all Marines, though, they aren't around long enough to prove it.

DantesInferno
21-03-2008, 09:11
I would be horrendously disappointed if GW ever came out and said that the Primarchs were not immortal =/

Errr.... in that case, I wouldn't read page 20 of the 2nd ed Codex Imperialis (which I already quoted earlier in the thread).

Typharius
22-03-2008, 02:04
I guess if it said it there it must be true =/ bit gutting, the Emperors sons themselves not being immortal like he is. Then again, if it is possible for a space marine to live for over a millennium, I suppose a Primarch who is insanely more powerful could possibly live 10's of Millennia.