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Arryn
13-03-2008, 06:20
Well the title is pretty self explanatory really...

For the better part of a decade the Space Marines of the Blood Angels Chapter have been considered as one of the top shelf recipients for the coveted Cheddar Award. The severly outdated and much derided rules for the Blood Angels have finally been re-vamped and received with heart-felt claps and cheers of an adoring 40k crowd... or has it?

The aim of this thread is to gather feedback about how people perceive the Blood Angels now that their controversial rule-set has been revised. As a veteran 40k and BA player, in the past I have been embarrassed to tell people which army I play and the victories I have had have been just as tainted as the psyche of the Marines I've taken to battle.

Has the shocking stereotype been put to bed? Can players like me go to battle without our opponents rolling their eyes and sticking their noses up?

Cheers,

Aaron

starlight
13-03-2008, 06:42
I like the current ruleset and look forward to seeing it on the opposite side of the table.:D

I *might* even use it to field my long awaited all Jumppack Marine list.:D

GimpMaster
13-03-2008, 07:36
new blood angels are a joke compared to the old ones...

it used to be when i played against the blood angels i was usually on the offensive...trying to get rid of those darn deathcompany...while the rest of the army just shot the crud out of me...
now that the death company is effectively neutered (in my eyes atleast....rending doesnt make up for 5 powerfists....heh) and the baal predator is about to be neutered in 5th edition...

i say...who cares about death company....congratulations from dropping from 2nd tier army to bottom tier....

you should have no shame in admitting you have blood angels any more...they have completely lost their stigma...heck all the power gamers i know completely ditched em when the new codex came out...only the old hardcore blood angels continued playing them...

that should tell you something

not to be down on blood angels...but as a power gamer myself i no longer fear them coming at me from other power gamers (i.e. tournament play...)

AngryAngel
13-03-2008, 07:47
If thats how you feel about BA I'd hate to think how ya view the Dark Angels. As well it saddens me to hear that. That to play with a list that isn't cheese, is such a shame in some peoples eyes.

In answer to your question brother, no don't feel shame. Your a marine chapter that doesn't have the cheese. Same as the DA, and I still play them. Rejoice for when you win, people can't take it away from you, unless they just hate marines a whole lot.

ehlijen
13-03-2008, 07:49
Not so. Being able to choose how many DC guys you have makes it more worthwile and rending while being accompanied (naturally) by a chaplain (probably the one whose Special character benefit is: hey look, I get a discount!) means you get to reroll all those rend attempts on the charge (well all the ones that missed anyway).

It is still a powerful list, just not as utterly wrong as it used to be. That said, I still think even the current DC generation method is incompatible with the way VPs work or are meant to work.

Malachai
13-03-2008, 10:10
There is nothing wrong with BA(well, they are a bit expensive though...), play them and enjoy them.

Nkari
13-03-2008, 10:50
Im a bit annoyed that you are actually paying for the DC when you buy your troop slots, really wished they would put a price on them and make them a mandatory choice instead taking up no org slot but counting as an elite slot.

Escaflowne_Z
13-03-2008, 11:00
Blood Angels and Dark Angels can still utterly destroy any other army. Certain army builds are difficult to beat, but that's always been the case. Come 5th edition, both of these chapters will be competitive, while normal space marines could be in a little trouble once the 5th ed. marine codex comes out. Personally, I'm very glad to see the DC powerfist generator BA lists gone; now those hardcore competitive players have to look elsewhere for powergaming armies, while we "garage" gamers can still enjoy a mighty good time.

Hrafn
13-03-2008, 11:14
I give the new BA a hearty Yea! :D

In fact, its exactly because of that new Codex I recently converted to the BA from my previous vanilla Chapter. I have always liked the BA and almost started them when I entered the hobby. It was and is both the BA minis and fluff that caught my eye, so I rejoiced when seeing the new list. The predecessors of the Codex were poorly thought out rules-wise, and I simply hated the "we ar teh evil blood marinez" concept which became so prevalent especially in the 3rd ed Codex. BA are an Imperial Codex Adeptus Astartes Chapter, for god's sake, not a band of frothing wanna-bee Berzerkers!

So, in short, the new Codex has taken care of both balance concerns and yonked the fluff back on its original track. Me likes ;)

Though it may be true that the BA Codex suffers when compared to vanilla Chapters right now, that will be adressed as soon as that is revised. Compared to the DA, which is much more of a true measuring stick, the BA holds up nicely. Neither too bad nor too good..

Angelus Mortis
13-03-2008, 11:46
new blood angels are a joke...that should tell you something...as a power gamer myself

It sure does. It tells me exactly what is wrong with WH40k. Power gamers. As a long time vet, you can see the power gamer mentality attracted to all the same lists. Used to be BA back in 3e, still somewhat in early 4e. Has always been CSM, especially IW. Eldar flying circus is making a run. But then, once the lists are properly balanced those people with the same mentality start screaming how they are ruining 40k and its all going to fall apart.

Well, I dont know about you, but when I play a wargame, the majority of the fun doesnt come from the end result being predetermined before we start. It comes from outwitting your opponent and luck carrying the day.

Corax
13-03-2008, 12:44
Perhaps the current state of the BA is more of a reflection on how they used to be, rather than how they are now. As the OP pointed out, the BA used to be one of the most abusive armies in the game, but its current incarnation is viewed as weak. This is a comparison between the old list and the new, not the BA list and other lists in the current game. I would say that for the most part, marine armies a (broadly) similar in terms of their overall standing in the gaming environment (vis a vis 'tiers'). Obviously, some have certain quirks that make them a little different to the Codex version, but most of these differences are aesthetic and do not radically change the core nature of a marine army. People whinge and whine that the BA or DA or whatever has been 'neutered', but they are really lamenting that their cheese has been taken away!

IJW
13-03-2008, 13:12
heck all the power gamers i know completely ditched em when the new codex came out...
You say that like it's a bad thing... :rolleyes:

Baaltharus
13-03-2008, 13:22
I like the new list in almost all regards, I like having the Baal Pred as a decent tank, I like the VAS being a useful component of the army but there are some things which I find less appealing. Dreadnoughts and Landspeeders are horribly overpriced (especially with the upcoming 5th edition changes), the cost of plasma pistols (when meltas for chaos raptors are better, cheaper and they still get their full number of cc attacks), the BA as a chapter were supposed to be (arguably) the fiercest of the Astartes but now theres nothing to seperate them from other SM other than the odd bit of equipment and one special squad. Also the removal of SHP did loose me one of my favourite models which was a bit annoying.

Overall its a nice list and better than the old one but there are some aspects of it which should have been looked at more carefully. I'm also wondering how able as an assault army it'll be under the 5th edition with terrain providing a lot less protection on closing on the enemy. Other features like the Baal pred being hit hard with their short ranged assault cannon not matching well with the heavy bolters.

Hulkster
13-03-2008, 13:29
I think it is a great list.

Hell I nearly bought the SM Battle Company Box Set just so I could make a Blood Angels company... I still might

Basically they have gone from being a possible cheese army to a great competitive army. I adore the new list.

Huw_Dawson
13-03-2008, 13:43
Well, I'm trying to be more proactive in my 40k views after that Gaunt debate, so here goes...

Blood Angels are FUN.

There is nothing funner than having masses and masses of Assault Marines on the other side of the board, all with a desire to rip your army to smithereens. Its like all of those "Genestealer LOLZ!" lists, but less of a shoot fest and more of a "holy HELL!" fest.

Plus, it can do a normal SM list very well, has more options worth taking than the SM list, and has Mephiston, he being the best special character in the game.

- Huw

Neo799
13-03-2008, 13:48
It's Okay.

Lord Damocles
13-03-2008, 13:58
Well, at the risk of being accused of being a Noob who has no idea what they're talking about, or a power-gaming cheese-monger who can't move on (neither of which I am, I'll have you know), here's why I still have 'issues' with the new Codex: Blood Angels...

- Loss of the armoury. It's been debated to death and back again, but I still want my Auspex, Teleport Homers etc back.
- Overpowered Special characters. Yes i use Lemartes; and do i fell bad about the fact that he's only 5 pts (!) more expensive than a normal Chaplain whith a junp pack? Yes, yes I do.
- Since when did the Blood Angels have so many Assault Squads that they could field them as Troops? There's no fluff to back this up. At all.
- The cost of Assault Cannons was increased to stop Ass spam. This is good. What's not good is that the cost of the platforms which can carry the Ass cannon also went up in price. Dreadnoughts are now horrendously over-costed.
- A plasma pistol, plasma gun, and plasma cannon all cost the same amount of points:wtf:.
- The fact that you pay for Death Company with every other squad (exept Terminators). Why could they not just be a standard Elites choice? Is it really concievable that EVERY Blood Angels force would have a load of death Company with it? No of course it's not.
- Techmarines:wtf:. I mean really.
- Scouts fluff says (said?) that they are taken from Battle Companies. Therefore they should have the Black carapace. Therefore they should be able to become Death Company.
- Wot, no Sanguinary High Priest?

Rant over (for now at least). God that felt good.:angel:

rcm2216
13-03-2008, 14:02
I just made a all jump pack army with the exception of two devastator squads. I will repost on this thread after playtesting a few times. I think it will be fun at the onset. I think a lot of people have been wanting to make this type of list in the past but could not. SO not the all jump pack is possible.

Critias
13-03-2008, 14:02
I've always been a big fan of the Blood Angels in the fluff, and hated that they were so cheesy in the rules. For a brief period of time I actually ran a Blood Angels army as Codex Space Marines (just using their background and paint scheme), just because I couldn't bring myself to like their silly, abusive, Codex.

Huw_Dawson
13-03-2008, 14:03
- Scouts fluff says (said?) that they are taken from Battle Companies. Therefore they should have the Black carapace. Therefore they should be able to become Death Company.

Scouts are marines that earn their stars before they get the black carapace, iirc.

- Huw

IJW
13-03-2008, 14:03
- Scouts fluff says (said?) that they are taken from Battle Companies. Therefore they should have the Black carapace. Therefore they should be able to become Death Company.
Is that something specific to BA? It used to be that Marine Scouts were the 'trainee' Marines who didn't yet have the Carapace.

centy
13-03-2008, 15:20
mate i checked the stats for blood angels armies playing in tourneys in australia for the last year and they only made up about 4% of the armies and did not have a high win ratio it wa about the middle.
I play them and have found them to make a balanced hard army with punch that still has a few weaknesses.
I think that the army i have built suits my style of play assault troops and lots of tanks.
2 baals a furuioso rhino and razorback in a 2000pt game and 25 jump pack guys.

Torga_DW
13-03-2008, 15:23
I've been a BA player since the beginning. I'm rather happy with the new codex.

Eldarion
13-03-2008, 15:29
The new codex isn't that bad, we have a mighty punch in close combat. But like other armys we have our drawbacks and weaknesses.

Hrafn
13-03-2008, 15:50
- Loss of the armoury. It's been debated to death and back again, but I still want my Auspex, Teleport Homers etc back.
- The cost of Assault Cannons was increased to stop Ass spam. This is good. What's not good is that the cost of the platforms which can carry the Ass cannon also went up in price. Dreadnoughts are now horrendously over-costed.
- A plasma pistol, plasma gun, and plasma cannon all cost the same amount of points:wtf:
- Techmarines:wtf:. I mean really

Which have absolutely nothing to do with the BA Codex as such. They are game-wide design decisions. Rest assured that the points cost will be adressed with 5th ed and the revised SM Codex.
You are entitled to your opinion of said changes, but in the context of the BA Codex alone, IMHO these objections are irrelevant. Sorry...


- Overpowered Special characters. Yes i use Lemartes; and do i fell bad about the fact that he's only 5 pts (!) more expensive than a normal Chaplain whith a junp pack? Yes, yes I do.:

Agreed, Lemartes is seriously undercosted. But as to the rest, I'd hardly call them "overpowered". Hard as nails, yes, but they have weaknesses and are bleeding (pun intended :angel:) expensive pointswise. Even Mephiston suffers rather badly from lack of an invulnerable save and massive points cost...



-- Since when did the Blood Angels have so many Assault Squads that they could field them as Troops? There's no fluff to back this up. At all.

Except that they are known for the effectiveness and love for close combat. That could easily translate into more assault squads. If this little change in composition serve to define the BA from other Chapters rules-wise, it's good. But then again, I don't consider this a major depature from fluff, really.



-- - The fact that you pay for Death Company with every other squad (exept Terminators). Why could they not just be a standard Elites choice? Is it really concievable that EVERY Blood Angels force would have a load of death Company with it? No of course it's not..

This complaint I don't get :confused: You complain that every BA force have DC contigent? Why shouldn't they? From a fluff POV, every BA is susceptible to the Black Rage, so almost every gathering of BA would conceivably have some fallen battle brothers?
From a POV of historonics, the BA has always had DC, som why should they vanish now? From a POV of game design, the DC serves to differentiate the BA, and the new rule with paying for them by each squad is an elegant fusion of earlier rules and proper game balance. Is this bad?

.

-- - Scouts fluff says (said?) that they are taken from Battle Companies. Therefore they should have the Black carapace. Therefore they should be able to become Death Company.

Where do you have that information from? I was under the impression that Scouts came from the Scout company, and that they were under training, having not yet received the Black Carapace?


--
- Wot, no Sanguinary High Priest?.

Yes, that would have been nice indeed!

Arryn
13-03-2008, 23:14
Hrafn, good response mate but i'm a little with Lord Damocles in that i myself have really noticed the lack of armoury when drawing up an army list. Now obviously i 'noticed' in the literary sense there was a lack of armoury but what i mean is that i really miss having it there with all the little bits and pieces that you could add to give your squads and characters a little customisation.

Has anyone else noticed that the codex format in terms of squad selection etc is pretty much an advanced version of the 2nd ed. codex? (why do i get the feeling this has been mentioned many times in other threads? :() In 2nd ed. days you'd buy a squad of 10 Tactical Marines for 300 points then kit them out individually, ah the good times... Nowadays you buy your squad pick a special weapon and if you've got the extra 5 men, pick your heavy weapon. This is a little too restrictive for me, but don't get me wrong, i'm still happy with the list!

Lord Damocles, mate if you feel bad for taking Lemartes (quite possibly the worst model ever cast!) then bite the bullet and don't take him. Until someone asked me why i didn't take him i didn't even realise what you could get and for how cheap. I reckon stay away from special characters and create your own Chapter legends!

Man my last army was built around a Sanga HP and i have to agree in how much it sucks that this HQ choice didn't make the cut... someone get me a tissue...

Lord Damocles
14-03-2008, 00:09
Where do you have that information from? I was under the impression that Scouts came from the Scout company, and that they were under training, having not yet received the Black Carapace?

3rd Ed. Codex: Blood Angels, pg.3: 'Blood Angels scouts are taken from the most fiery individuals in the Chapter'.

Nobody ever belives it though, so I don't expect people to start now.

starlight
14-03-2008, 00:13
Just as Wolf Scouts, Blood Angels differ slightly from Codex Marines.:)

Lord Damocles
14-03-2008, 00:19
Lord Damocles, mate if you feel bad for taking Lemartes (quite possibly the worst model ever cast!) then bite the bullet and don't take him. Until someone asked me why i didn't take him i didn't even realise what you could get and for how cheap. I reckon stay away from special characters and create your own Chapter legends!

Sorry for the almost double post.

I use my Chaplain (Recusiarch Ical, Bearer of the Black Grail) as a counts-as Lemartes - there's no way I'd willingly use the 'real' model!:D

The problem with not using Lemartes when I would otherwise take a 2 wound Chappie with a jump pack is that I'm not getting anything like the best 'value for points' that I could, and so am putting myself at a (slight) dissadvantage.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
14-03-2008, 00:42
in high-competetive enviroment [like big tournaments] BA are good/very good army.

it is worse than older BA but still very powerful.

AngryAngel
14-03-2008, 06:49
I wouldn't say the BA are worse. I'd say they have a less abuseable list. However with a skilled player in army list creation, and play they can still offer plenty of power. It just isn't from being unbalanced, you need to actually know what your doing.

Arryn
14-03-2008, 07:01
Very true dude.

I just did a quick search on the Army List forum for 'Blood Angels' and couldn't help but notice that 99% of the lists have Lemartes as the HQ. That SERIOUSLY sucks ****! Why would GW do that?? I feel like we are so close to having a decent list and they go and do that. What, was it an oversight or something? I sound more concerned than i actually am, but it's just annoying that there's that temptation in there. I for one will never field him, even though it's difficult to blame people for doing it... Such a shame that so many people don't have pride in their own commanders...

AngryAngel
14-03-2008, 07:08
It is kind of sad to hear a named character is the par for the course. In the DA dex no one choice outweighs the others. That may be because no choice is really that over whelmingly good. I personally use my company master most every battle. I refuse to be a slave to named characters. Unless I'm running deathwing or ravenwing then I kinda have to be.

KazenX
14-03-2008, 07:18
Barring the how I feel about the abstraction trend, when compaired to the new generation codecies the BA one is pretty nice, I actually see vechiles fielded as more than a lark, a venerable death co. dred makes me sweat a bit. The only thing I don't like is the hidden death co cost, you pay for them either way now so as a purely tactial concern you would be wasting the 25pt premium you pay for death co.

This is based off of the difference in SM codex cost for 4 marines + Vet sarge vs BA combat squad.

warchild9
14-03-2008, 07:57
a couple things I don't like about the rules but i only have to fight the on rare occasions my friend fields his BA

1- Scouts as a ELITE choice (this goes for DA also) WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! troops yes, elite no

2-the ability to BUY more Death Co.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He fields an all jump pack army with two Baals my SOB army mounted out numbers him 3 to 1 usually and my Black legion (no armour just infantry) 2 to 1.....but I guess i fault him for wasting the points since I just shoot them to death

centy
14-03-2008, 08:43
i alwys use dante as my army leader. I found he is ok in combat but were he realy shines is what special rules he has that benefit those around him.
my 2k list has
dante
honor gaurd 3 fists and plasmas
3 dc in rhino to survive shooting and no one else does it
furuioso dread
2 x 10man assault squads powerfist and plasma pistols
5man tac squad power weapon flamer and plasma pistol and melta bomb in lascannon rhino.
2 multimelta attack bikes
2 multimetla assault cannon landspeeders
2 baal preds, just working out best sponson config atm.

This list seems to do well for me as i try to destroy armor fast and have some speed.

Corax
14-03-2008, 08:49
- Loss of the armoury. It's been debated to death and back again, but I still want my Auspex, Teleport Homers etc back.

This is not peculiar to the BA, the Eldar and the DA are the same. You might as well get used to it, as it is the format for all future releases. Personally, I was dead against the new format when it came out, but having had a chance to get used to it, I am ok with it now. It is useful in the respect that it makes it much easier for the design team to control who has access to what and limit the opportunities for cheesemongering.

Ronin_eX
14-03-2008, 09:26
I like it except for the mandatory DC. It was never like that when they first got their list and the majority of their fluff in 2nd and I don't see why it happens now. The Death Company do not occur at every battle (otherwise think of the BA mortality rate o_O). In 2nd they were a normal squad that was bought if you had a Chaplain in the force. I also don't agree with models getting a discount as a point cost is a measure of effectiveness and shouldn't be altered unless you are getting less or more out of that unit than from the original.

BA players should have the freedom to choose if they want DC in the army at all and the DC should have some other downsides instead to represent that most die after battle (the 2nd edition downside was fair and made them very unique in my mind).

In short the Death Company only show up during important battles (which should be up to the players to judge) and when they turn it is often a day or more before the fighting (thus there is always time to bring in fresh bodies to keep at full strength and the Death Company can be transported to where they are most needed). Almost everything else (besides the cost of Lemartes) is fine but this is still a sticking point for me with the new codex. Forcing choices seems very out of character for the new codices, mandatory units was more of a 3rd edition thing. I hope they change it for the official codex myself but if it stayed as is I likely wouldn't complain as it wouldn't effect me much being a DA player and all. :p

centy
14-03-2008, 09:36
i love the free death co because if i do not give them jump packs and don't buy any extra then the enemy gets no points for killing this unit.
Everybody will try to kill them so it is a great distraction and getss the enemy no vp for what can be lot of effort.
I know why people complain about them but i see it as the opposite, they are an asset to be used wisely.
Just think you kill the whole death co unit only to find you got 0 points for all the effort.
Sounds good to me.

Hrafn
14-03-2008, 10:23
:)
Hrafn, good response mate but i'm a little with Lord Damocles in that i myself have really noticed the lack of armoury when drawing up an army list. Now obviously i 'noticed' in the literary sense there was a lack of armoury but what i mean is that i really miss having it there with all the little bits and pieces that you could add to give your squads and characters a little customisation.

Thanks :)

I don't disagree as such that I would have liked to maintain more wargear options, be it in the form of armoury or not. I do feel something is missing too when I write up my BA lists(!) I don't know, it's kind of irrational, but I do feel something of a more "personal" feel is missing somewhere. :( Especially as a painter/modeller.
However, the reason I dismissed the notion in this thread is because it's an overarching design decision, and has really nothing to do with the BA Codex. There is no way the BA would get an old school armoury when other armies do no, so it's iMHO not really worth discussing in context with a BA Codex.

Hrafn
14-03-2008, 10:25
3rd Ed. Codex: Blood Angels, pg.3: 'Blood Angels scouts are taken from the most fiery individuals in the Chapter'.

Nobody ever belives it though, so I don't expect people to start now.

I stand corrected then :)

But, I have really never noticed that information anywhere. Can anyone tell me wherether this is repeated in other sources, or is it just in the 3rd ed Codex? Which is an edition I deplore, so I just need to know if I should add a reason to hate it even more or not :p

Escaflowne_Z
14-03-2008, 12:53
Blood Angels do not follow the normal procedures for turning humans into space marines. A normal human adolescent who passes the trials is placed in a sarcophogas for one year. When he emerges, he has been transformed into a space marine, with all of the extra organs and mental conditioning of a full battle brother. Whether or not the Black Carapace has to be added later is unclear. This is from Index Astartes: BA and the two BA novels from the Black Library.

On Topic: I absolutely love the new BA codex, and come 5th ed it will be even more powerful. BA now excel at missions, whereas before they could struggle due to the Black Rage rule. My only gripes are the overpointing of dreadnoughts and the mandatory Death Company. Everything else is stellar.

pookie
14-03-2008, 13:01
Blood Angels do not follow the normal procedures for turning humans into space marines. A normal human adolescent who passes the trials is placed in a sarcophogas for one year. When he emerges, he has been transformed into a space marine, with all of the extra organs and mental conditioning of a full battle brother. Whether or not the Black Carapace has to be added later is unclear. This is from Index Astartes: BA and the two BA novels from the Black Library.

My Take was that the Transformation is more about turning them from Rad Mutants into something more pure, and that they still have the Implants done before this happens, the year in the Coffin is more a change in mind and body, is the process noted in the 2nd ed dex? or WD ? ( dont have the 3rd ed dex thats all )

Escaflowne_Z
14-03-2008, 13:13
I just checked my Codex: Angels of Death. P. 19 lists the steps of the aspirant. They drink from the chalice containing the blood of the Primarch (now drawn from the Sanguinary High Priests), then fall into deep slumber. They are immediately implanted with geneseed and taken to the golden sarcophogai where they will sleep for a year while the geneseed does its work, adding muscle mass and the organs of a space marine.

"When the aspirants emerge from their sarcophagi, like butteflies emerging from a chrysalis, they will have changed. They will be tall, strong, and superhumanly powerful. Their restructured bodies and features will have taken on a beauty that echoes that of their angelic forebear. Their senses will be keener, their muscles will be stronger than termpered steel. They will be ready to begin their training as Space Marines."

AngryAngel
14-03-2008, 17:35
a couple things I don't like about the rules but i only have to fight the on rare occasions my friend fields his BA

1- Scouts as a ELITE choice (this goes for DA also) WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! troops yes, elite no

2-the ability to BUY more Death Co.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He fields an all jump pack army with two Baals my SOB army mounted out numbers him 3 to 1 usually and my Black legion (no armour just infantry) 2 to 1.....but I guess i fault him for wasting the points since I just shoot them to death

Alright thats an issue there that needs to be dealt with. Just because he has access to so many jump pack marines, should he field nothing but them ? No he shouldn't.

Honestly if I was running BA, I'd run maybe a couple squads of vet assault squads. Then for troops take regular tac squads first, assault squads in a higher point game. Same as a DA army doesn't have to have bikes and terms in every single army list.

Guardian of The Lost
14-03-2008, 20:45
Hello this is my first post so here I go. Well I just can't get enough of BA,:D the codex is lacking in some areas thoe: no DC chaplin, no sanguinary priest theses two HQ chooices make the BA list unique to the chapter. Hopefully they will be in the new codex when it is re-done!!! I don't know why people are going on about the list been under powered, I've yet to see anything stand up to 10 DC on the charge!!!

"BY THE BLOOD OF SANGUINIS"

warchild9
15-03-2008, 05:41
Alright thats an issue there that needs to be dealt with. Just because he has access to so many jump pack marines, should he field nothing but them ? No he shouldn't.


we were discussing this earlier and he even agrees with the fact that he needs tac squads cuz if the rumors are true I would win by default, in take in hold missions cuause he can not take anything with jump infantry. And I have the most wins by default for specific missions pulled from a hat in my gaming group.

Master Jeridian
15-03-2008, 11:36
I like that the BA don't get Furious Charge for free across the army- that lumped an extra +3pts per model free. The downside, on a 1 they might get to the enemy faster- hilarious. That's like an army having more powerful guns for free, the downside on a 1 they must shoot twice...

I like that the BA can't replace a 13pt Scout with a Fearless, Furious Charge Assault Marine with Feel No Pain. Or a 26pt Scout with the same plus a Power Fist.
The DC again added an extra +100-200pts of free stuff.

The BA where not considered cheesy because they where much more powerful than other Marines, but because they essentially turned up to every game with +250pts of free stuff. Hence had an advantage from the start.


So when comparisons are made with the new Codex, and power gamers cry- try as I might, I can't find pity.

Now the downsides of the new Codex: plasma pistols are 15pts, the same as plasmaguns....erm, I'll pass on them thanks GW.
The increase in cost of models that can carry Assault Cannons rather than/in addition to the Assault Cannons themselves.
Dreadnoughts are overpriced.

Special Crutches being the theme of yet another Codex, the no brainer way they are obvious choices for various reasons- cheaper for the same equipment, or Ld 10 Psychic Hood, etc.

Mireadur
15-03-2008, 12:50
Well, at the risk of being accused of being a Noob who has no idea what they're talking about, or a power-gaming cheese-monger who can't move on (neither of which I am, I'll have you know), here's why I still have 'issues' with the new Codex: Blood Angels...

- Loss of the armoury. It's been debated to death and back again, but I still want my Auspex, Teleport Homers etc back.
- Overpowered Special characters. Yes i use Lemartes; and do i fell bad about the fact that he's only 5 pts (!) more expensive than a normal Chaplain whith a junp pack? Yes, yes I do.
- Since when did the Blood Angels have so many Assault Squads that they could field them as Troops? There's no Fluff to back this up. At all.
- The cost of Assault Cannons was increased to stop Ass spam. This is good. What's not good is that the cost of the platforms which can carry the Ass cannon also went up in price. Dreadnoughts are now horrendously over-costed.
- A plasma pistol, plasma gun, and plasma cannon all cost the same amount of points.
- The fact that you pay for Death Company with every other squad (exept Terminators). Why could they not just be a standard Elites choice? Is it really concievable that EVERY Blood Angels force would have a load of death Company with it? No of course it's not.
- Techmarines. I mean really.
- Scouts Fluff says (said?) that they are taken from Battle Companies. Therefore they should have the Black carapace. Therefore they should be able to become Death Company.
- Wot, no Sanguinary High Priest?

Rant over (for now at least). God that felt good.

I agree with all this, and still they have a lot of more potential than vanilla SM... So odds arent too good on what we can expect for the 5th ed codex.

The BA list is probably the most fun SM chapter out there right now. While the problems listed above arent specific of them, they show the way developers want to lead marines to.

self biased
15-03-2008, 16:15
new blood angels are a joke compared to the old ones...

it used to be when i played against the blood angels i was usually on the offensive...trying to get rid of those darn deathcompany...while the rest of the army just shot the crud out of me...
now that the death company is effectively neutered (in my eyes atleast....rending doesnt make up for 5 powerfists....heh) and the baal predator is about to be neutered in 5th edition...

i say...who cares about death company....congratulations from dropping from 2nd tier army to bottom tier....

you should have no shame in admitting you have blood angels any more...they have completely lost their stigma...heck all the power gamers i know completely ditched em when the new codex came out...only the old hardcore blood angels continued playing them...

that should tell you something

not to be down on blood angels...but as a power gamer myself i no longer fear them coming at me from other power gamers (i.e. tournament play...)

ahem: SHAME! SHAME ON YOU! ahem. now that i have that out of my system, i'm sure you miss the days in second edition where you could give all your death company jump packs for an addition 50 points. all of them. whether you had the the minimum squad, or the maximum allowed by the size of your game. rending may not make up completely for having five power fists, but furious charge and feel no pain on top of that certainly gives them staying power.

"...but as a power gamer myself" well, i suppose the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem in the first place. though tournament play does not always denote power-gaming. to be honest, most of the power gamers i know do so because they play the game so poorly and feel they need to min/max their lists.



I just did a quick search on the Army List forum for 'Blood Angels' and couldn't help but notice that 99% of the lists have Lemartes as the HQ. That SERIOUSLY sucks ****! Why would GW do that??

because the design philosophy of the studio is: "But, It Could Grip It By The Husk." there is significant evidence that the studio not only doesn't know their own rules as well as they think, as well as they likely play with more house rules than they let on. there's also a certain unspoken self-control; one would only take Lemartes above a regular chaplain for a lark, not every time! honestly, who plays like that?[/sarcasm] they don't seem to realize that gamers as a whole naturally tend towards power-gaming because we can, and only reel ourselves in afterwards.



The DC again added an extra +100-200pts of free stuff.

The BA where not considered cheesy because they where much more powerful than other Marines, but because they essentially turned up to every game with +250pts of free stuff. Hence had an advantage from the start.

So when comparisons are made with the new Codex, and power gamers cry- try as I might, I can't find pity.

Now the downsides of the new Codex: plasma pistols are 15pts, the same as plasmaguns....erm, I'll pass on them thanks GW.

i didn't realize what you were saying until just now. the 100-200 points of 'free stuff' is in reference to the previous codex, not the current one. why pass on the plasma pistol? they're highly effective at removing heavy infantry before charging. remember that a plasmagun is a rapid fire weapon.

***

now for my own take on the Blood Angels: they're solid.

death company hit like a brick ********* with four attacks on the charge, furious charge, rending, and feel no pain they put a whole world of hurting on many a unit. they can be easily supported by other jump troops, and attack bikes make for nice anti-tank firepower. the downside is that you pay the points for death company whether you wanted to use them or not. the studio seems to really have a burning desire to shoehorn armies into one or two trick ponies.

Arryn
16-03-2008, 08:31
I really need to figure out the quoting thing... :confused:

Anyhoo, self biased what you say rings true and i can understand new players taking that path (shame on them!) but for Vet's i would be very upset! My Chaplain, Adonis Kain has been remodelled once but has been battling the foes of the Imperium since the 3rd ed. Codex was released. He has, and will always be, a generic Chaplain base. The idea of renaming Lemartes is crap whoever you are, its such a blatant abuse of GW's oversight (to put it nicely) and really cheapens the Special Character behind it.

Mireadur: You mentioned that the Blood Angels still have more potential than regular marines is that right? If so i can't say i agree. After a quick brush with some Ultramarines today with their tank-hunting, furious charging termies, Master of Sanctity, and cheap(er) dreadnoughts I certainly think the edge is with the generic marines!

Colonial Rifle
16-03-2008, 10:39
I played BA with Gav's ropey codex and have quite a bit of experience under the new one - my take is that BA are now a better, more well rounded force than before. Now I can actually shoot stuff rather than watch my army run around like headless chickens every five minutes.

It still has problems (poor tactical squad choices, limited Character choices (well good ones anyway)), but the core list is decent.

Master Jeridian
16-03-2008, 13:49
i didn't realize what you were saying until just now. the 100-200 points of 'free stuff' is in reference to the previous codex, not the current one. why pass on the plasma pistol? they're highly effective at removing heavy infantry before charging. remember that a plasmagun is a rapid fire weapon.


It's 15pts for a weapon that's likely to only ever get one-shot per game just before you charge in, and can potentially kill the owner. No thanks.

The Plasmagun is the same cost and is a Rapid Fire weapon- it can fire twice, and can fire once up to double the pistol's range. I know you know this, but just recapping- that for the same cost it's better.

I just cannot justify the plasma pistol for 15pts, on anything. I'd settle for 10pts, knowing 5pts was way too cheap.

TheMav80
16-03-2008, 16:33
It really doesn't make sense to me how people can so dislike the special characters. Especially in a codex that is totally dedicated to one specific army. I can understand when it is just Codex: Space Marines or just Codex: eldar.

But this is a codex for one specific chapter. The Blood Angels have their own named Chapter Master and Chaplain and Librarian. If you are playing Blood Angels, then your chapter master is going to be Dante. Same with the Dark Angels. The DA Chapter Master is Azrael. So if you want to play Dark Angels and want to have the Chapter Master you use Azael.

Personally I think they should have rules for the Chapter Master of every founding chapter, where applicable anyway. Iron Hands don't have one, for example.

Master Jeridian
16-03-2008, 17:59
I don't think those Chapter Masters have lead throughout the Imperium's 10,000yr history.

I'm fine for other people to use Special Crutches, but to remove the 'generic' option such as the Ld 10 3 wound version of the Librarian and Chaplain and so force people to take the Crutch option is bad IMO.
Mainly that you can't customise Special Crutches, that they have a preset official history that everyone already knows- boring, I want to fight against and with characters with their own history.
I don't want to fight against an Eldrad clone in the fiftieth Eldar army I face.

I guess for BA and DA being one specific Chapter it is inevitable. I hope the Codex SM redux isn't so limited.

warchild9
16-03-2008, 19:01
I am not a BA player but I have fought them since 2nd edition. The need for special characters in any army constantly is kinda going back to 2nd ed. ie herohammer 40k. I understand taking a special character for Deathwing and Ravenwing. I know my friends would rather fight my Black Legion Lord Sanscouer over Abaddon any day. I play Crimson Fist and I don't have any Special Characters and that is ok and in my Sisters i use Saint Celeste as my Canoness with a Jump Pack. Now granted some special characters are just awesome but why use the every game with the exception of RW and DW.

The SkaerKrow
16-03-2008, 20:02
Blood Angels don't need Special Characters. No one's holding a gun to your head and making you take Lemartes in every single list. Sure Mephiston's powerful, but he also costs a boatload of points. You want to fight a Horus Heresy era battle? Real easy, don't take any of the Special Characters in the Codex. Seriously, it's not that difficult to figure out.

Arryn
16-03-2008, 22:15
Dude you are right, no one is holding a gun to their head, but we can't be surprised to see people fielding Lemartes (or George the BA successor chapter chaplain counting as :eyebrows:) as GW have basically dangled the carrot in front of us offering for just 5 extra points a +1W, +1LD Death Mask wearing Hero! *BAD GW!* :mad:

Special characters should be totally kick **** but with a points cost to match.

warchild9
16-03-2008, 22:51
Special characters should be totally kick **** but with a points cost to match.

like Abaddon and Mephistion
some special characters are just a waste a points

Snorphel
16-03-2008, 22:53
Dude you are right, no one is holding a gun to their head, but we can't be surprised to see people fielding Lemartes (or George the BA successor chapter chaplain counting as :eyebrows:) as GW have basically dangled the carrot in front of us offering for just 5 extra points a +1W, +1LD Death Mask wearing Hero! *BAD GW!* :mad:

Special characters should be totally kick **** but with a points cost to match.

Ah, but the Lemartes model is quite ugly (at least I think it is) - So I guess that it's made cheaper to compensate for this.

I like the new BA list - I miss a few options though (already mentioned): teleport homers and auspexes. I hope that items like these will be incorporated in the main rule book - mission bits.

Cheers, J.

GraemePaul
16-03-2008, 23:15
Im not a BA player however I do not understand the need of some people to field a special character every game. I play SW mainly and In all the years I have played them I think I broke out Bjorn 3 times in 2nd ed. Ragnar twice and Logan Grimnar once.

Also, just to check are people fielding Special Characters for Tournament games. not been to the UK GT for years and getting back into the hobby but I would be very disappointed if any GT's allowed special characters.

Special Characters are there to add colour for one off games and senarios (think a linked campaign ending in a big apocalypse battle).

Just my tuppence worth

The SkaerKrow
16-03-2008, 23:43
Special Characters are there to add colour for one off games and senarios (think a linked campaign ending in a big apocalypse battle).Recently Games Workshop has been making a move to increase the use of Special Characterson the tabletop. Back in the days of 40K 2nd Edition and WHFB 5th Edition most Special Characters were huge beatsticks with exorbant (but not always adequete) points costs attached to them, and required your opponent's permission to field because of how they could unbalance the game. Now? No Special Characters released in books for the past year and a half have required opponent's permission, but only a handful really bring game-breaking potential to the table. The designers are using special characters to expand the options a player has while crafting an army list, either by adding unique abilities to the mix or by introducing some rule that alters a fundamental aspect of the game (army composition, deployment, etc). For us old timers it might be hard to get used to, but these aren't your Daddy's Special Characters. They're new, and they were designed to be used in balanced games.

I honestly believe that Lemartes is just an oversight, the BA Chaplain may well have gone up in points since they did his points value, and he was never corrected in response to that.

Arryn
17-03-2008, 02:57
I do agree with what you've said Skaerkrow and apologies all around if i seem more concerned than i probably am. However i will point out that i had a game yesterday where my Chaplain, IF he was "Lemartes" (i.e. 3 wounds) would have definitively swung the battle my way for a greater winning margin. As it was he fell to the 2 wounds caused by a Daemon Prince while simultaneously banishing it to the warp.

It just goes to show how much of an effect the extra wound could have impacted the game... sorry, i'm not usually one for if's and but's...

Polonius
17-03-2008, 06:43
Modern special characters essentially replace the handful of no-brainer combos that tended to pop up in every army list anyway. Discriminating against specials is essentially like limiting yourself to only 2 heavies, fasts, and elites: you can do it, but why?

My buddy plays BA, and he likes them. It's a solid list, roughly in the middle of the pack with Sisters, IG, and Dark Eldar. Better then DA or Daemonhunters, but not as good as Chaos, necrons or Tau (the good armies) and definitly not up there with Eldar, Nids or Space Marines (the top teir). In other words, they're a great list for either friendly or competitive game play.

self biased
18-03-2008, 04:19
Im not a BA player however I do not understand the need of some people to field a special character every game. I play SW mainly and In all the years I have played them I think I broke out Bjorn 3 times in 2nd ed. Ragnar twice and Logan Grimnar once.

without the restriction, the phrase "Because I Can," comes to mind followed quickly by "and you can't do a damned thing about it." there's also the fact that Lemartes isn't balanced with his two wound counterpart in the slightest. he'd be a steal for another fifty points.


Blood Angels don't need Special Characters. No one's holding a gun to your head and making you take Lemartes in every single list. Sure Mephiston's powerful, but he also costs a boatload of points. You want to fight a Horus Heresy era battle? Real easy, don't take any of the Special Characters in the Codex. Seriously, it's not that difficult to figure out.

most gamers i've seen have all the self control of a deranged magpie when it comes to shiny things.


Recently Games Workshop has been making a move to increase the use of Special Characterson the tabletop. Back in the days of 40K 2nd Edition and WHFB 5th Edition most Special Characters were huge beatsticks with exorbant (but not always adequete) points costs attached to them, and required your opponent's permission to field because of how they could unbalance the game. Now? No Special Characters released in books for the past year and a half have required opponent's permission, but only a handful really bring game-breaking potential to the table. The designers are using special characters to expand the options a player has while crafting an army list, either by adding unique abilities to the mix or by introducing some rule that alters a fundamental aspect of the game (army composition, deployment, etc). For us old timers it might be hard to get used to, but these aren't your Daddy's Special Characters. They're new, and they were designed to be used in balanced games.

I honestly believe that Lemartes is just an oversight, the BA Chaplain may well have gone up in points since they did his points value, and he was never corrected in response to that.

chapter 1, verse I (on the defense of special characters): most armies can at the very least get by, if not excell without using special characters. Dark Angels have it a mite rougher, but the rationale makes sense. there's no option for a company commander in terminator armor. why? because only one company commander goes off regularly in terminator armor: belial. he's named, because he really ought to be. the same goes for Sammael; though he really ought to have a plain Bike option as well.

what would really work well for 40k would be a force org chart similar to that of fantasy, only with three character slots: Heroes, Lords, and Legends. honestly, it seems like Lemartes shows up at every cocktail hour and backyard barbecue he's invited to. any special character would nominally be relegated to either massive games (possibly those in excess of 3k), or may be required to field a specific choice to count as troops, and eat up multiple hero slots to boot. i had worked out a matrix for it, but it was really only an academic exercise.

bobmiester
18-03-2008, 06:07
I recently started a blood angel successor chapter and I love the new codex to death.

But I think the real reason there is a push for special characters is the loss of the armoury.

Escaflowne_Z
18-03-2008, 06:21
Im not a BA player however I do not understand the need of some people to field a special character every game. I play SW mainly and In all the years I have played them I think I broke out Bjorn 3 times in 2nd ed. Ragnar twice and Logan Grimnar once.

Also, just to check are people fielding Special Characters for Tournament games. not been to the UK GT for years and getting back into the hobby but I would be very disappointed if any GT's allowed special characters.

Special Characters are there to add colour for one off games and senarios (think a linked campaign ending in a big apocalypse battle).

Just my tuppence worth

I agree with you about how special characters should not show up in every little skirmish in the 41st millenium. Kudos to you for not using them much, but let's face it, the SW special characters are not as good as something you could build using the SW codex. Space Wolves have the absolute killiest Marine HQs out there (Frost Blade!:eek:), and are very customizable to boot.

The_Outsider
18-03-2008, 12:39
"New" BA are several orders of magnitude better than old BA.

A more rounded list (namely due to how DC is worked out) that properly fits in with how mariens work (much like the DA codex as well).

If you try and field a "codex" force with BA you will do very well as the army has insane internal synergy.

boogle
18-03-2008, 12:57
I like the way they are now more tactically flexible, my only small gripe is Assault Squads in the Troops Section

Patriarch
18-03-2008, 13:58
I'm glad they sorted out most of the overpowering problems from the 3rd ed codex and made devastators a realistic choice again, but still a couple of gripes:

DC shouldn't be compulsory, they should be an option. If some of the BA went DC before every battle the chapter organisation would have broken down after a few years. Pay for the DC properly, limit the number of DC members according to other squads taken, and reduce the regular squads' points cost.

The librarian "flying" power was a nice idea, but they fixed it so that librarians can't take jump packs. Great. So Librarians can't joint all JP armies. Cos even if they do, there's a chance he will fail/fry his brain when the rest of his squad jumps. Oh, and he can't use his other power or his force sword after the jump either. I'd rather have the option.

Oh yeah, and the no-brainer Lemartes. I daresay that was something to do with selling more of that awful miniature

Cambion Daystar
18-03-2008, 14:25
I really don't like the new codex.
Mephiston is way too good, Lemartes is a nobrainer choice (only 3W chaplain)
there is no 3 wound librarian
no option of a jumppack for librarians!!!!!.
Characters are less customizable (but that seems to be the new trend)
Dreads too expensive, same for the pred.
I'm also not a big fan of the combat squads rules.
Death company should be optional, not mandatory.
But most of all, i hate losing furious charge/black rage.

tcraigen
18-03-2008, 15:04
It sure does. It tells me exactly what is wrong with WH40k. Power gamers. As a long time vet, you can see the power gamer mentality attracted to all the same lists. Used to be BA back in 3e, still somewhat in early 4e. Has always been CSM, especially IW. Eldar flying circus is making a run. But then, once the lists are properly balanced those people with the same mentality start screaming how they are ruining 40k and its all going to fall apart.

Well, I dont know about you, but when I play a wargame, the majority of the fun doesnt come from the end result being predetermined before we start. It comes from outwitting your opponent and luck carrying the day.

I have been playing since 96 and in recent years have all but stopped playing public games due to the fact that the majority of people who have been playing as long as me/ or are older always seem to be rule based gamers. The people who share a more hobby sided mind often are harder to deal with as they are often either really young or are at the extreme end of the odd personality spectrum. (Not trying to insult anyone just seems to be who I have come across in my areas) If the game was to be souly based on rules than there wouldn't be the need for fluff and the open ended possibilities that GW writes into every army. We'd all play games more akin to chess checkers or sorry. I play these games to interact with people and "PLAY" a game it passes the time and is meant to be fun. Playing someone who has pulled every thread in the codex to make their uber army is rarely fun for both players. Yes if this is your kind of thing it can be fun for you but I dont know if its just me but it seems more fun building an army in character with the writings of GW while making an interesting and tough army.


I think it is a great list.

Hell I nearly bought the SM Battle Company Box Set just so I could make a Blood Angels company... I still might

Basically they have gone from being a possible cheese army to a great competitive army. I adore the new list.

I couldn't help my self and got one to bump my head count to 2companies and change... I agree it is a very competitive army. With so much to pick from I enjoy trying new organizations, like all assult based army using 9 squads of jump packs or an all foot based mobilized force, sadly I can no longer do my all scout troop selection...




1- Overpowered Special characters. Yes i use Lemartes; and do i feel bad about the fact that he's only 5 pts (!) more expensive than a normal Chaplain whith a junp pack? Yes, yes I do.
2- Since when did the Blood Angels have so many Assault Squads that they could field them as Troops? There's no fluff to back this up. At all.
3- The fact that you pay for Death Company with every other squad (exept Terminators). Why could they not just be a standard Elites choice? Is it really concievable that EVERY Blood Angels force would have a load of death Company with it? No of course it's not.
4- Techmarines:wtf:. I mean really.
5- Scouts fluff says (said?) that they are taken from Battle Companies. Therefore they should have the Black carapace. Therefore they should be able to become Death Company.
6- Wot, no Sanguinary High Priest?
.:angel:
1 no one said you must use lemartes, and really for what he is it isn't the biggest deal if you do or don't, yes it is a weird anomoly but if you find it unfair add the extra points and pat your self on the head with comfort that you are on the moral high ground, since you normally use him anyway I suspect you don't really care and only want to rub it in others wounds. hehe
2. No fluff to back this up? really? come on do you need to go back and read it again? the red thirst and black rage and their love of close combat didn't just appear here on the internet. Plus they don't really have any more squads then any one else. They just prefer to field them more. There is still only 2 squads per company except in the reserve one. The only difference is the Vets use jump packs rather than being holed up in in a rhino when they are not wearing terminator armor.
3. If you would rather not use the DC just play a normal army painted BA why complain about a squad that is really is about the only unique unit they get. Is it really that much of an inconvenience?
4. Again are they really that bad? If they are use the sweet Tech-adept option you get in the honour guard.
5. I know it is confusing but they are still trainees it doesn't say they are marines just that they are part of the chapter. Only the space wolves are backwards in this regard.
6. I agree this is odd they got rid of that choice but I have never met another soul who has used this, I haven't, I have quite literally dozens of characters for my force and this is never one I felt I needed to try. If you want one use Corbulo...


like Abaddon and Mephistion
some special characters are just a waste a points
I don't know what you have been smoking, Mephiston is worth every point you pay if you use him appropriately. I have killed almost entire troop selections with him alone sometimes. He is quite possibly the single most powerful model in the game for his points and what he is. Librarians normally are the most killy HQ choices and he is the cream of the crop in that department. I rarely get to use him most of the time but when I do he is always fun. Although I must admit he barely fits in the army imagewise. I love the model but he is completely different from every other marine in the Impirium (whether this is good or bad is besides the point) he just doesn't really fit in.
I am disapoint it took this long to get a new codex and that one printed in WD form was the only way they got a new one. But it being a free download certainly acts as a decent appology gift. I'm disapointed to see scouts not as troops, this made more sense in the DA codex than here. But most people won't die from this change, though my 40 scouts will now only be seen together in Apoco battles. I like the ability to have tons of big Ass squads, but Im sad you can't make a 10 man honor guard now(makes sense though hehe) I wish they had more variety in their armorment. The champion is a nice addition as well as the tech adapt if you want a couple extra power weapons. I don't know if I have interpretted the options completely with the Lirbrarian but I'm pretty sure youre not aloud to give him a jump pack due to his wing spell which I dislike the reliance on. It would be nice to see a little more specialised wargear since really there isn't anything new that wasn't around 10 years ago for characters. Clearly GW is having trouble figuring out what to do with the death company since each encarnation is drastically different then the last. I don't know if lack of weapon variety is really that big a deal, They still seem to get things done, and quite quickly at that. I do like not having my tanks and devistators charge the enemy randomly I always started to forget to roll the tests half way through the battles. I am entertained to see Tycho's "resurrection" it would have been interesting to list him in tandum with his DC state as well. I'm sad to see the loss of a named dreadnaught character, but since they give you the option of making him essentually it is okay, just sad that they didn't replace him with anyone else. On the whole the codex is decent and fair. It doesn't scream AMAZING but it is a WD release out of guilt and need. I only hope to see it actually get it's own released codex again in the future; like the DA one. I know it has been state it is a long way off if ever now but it is an army that has been around for ever and deserves it. I think if the release it in the future they should do it almost exactly like the DA set rather than the Templars. Make a couple bits sprues with tank emblems, heads, torsos, shoulder pads, backpacks, banner tops, combat weapons whatever, and like the DA sprue some tank bits like say; a furioso arm, and maybe a baal pred add on bits. It would be cool to see a assault cannon version of a razorback, and plausable since they arn't much different than a Heavy bolter in size and ammo stock needs. Or if tank bits are a no go idea maybe plastic Deathcompany heads and pads. I'd love to see a grail arm or even death mask head. I hate to hear people complain about how everyone plays the BA and that is why they don't when really it is rather rare you see a BA force since Armageddon when it seems most people fell in love with the templars(how could you not). I haven't played in a tournament with or against another blood angels player in at least 6 years. I hope to see more now that they have got their new codex, though I suspect it really will just reignite old players passion. Either way I like the new version, it seems many do and many don't. This will always happen every release of a new edition does this espicially those who exploit the rules. At the end of the day all I can say is "let there be blood" and have fun doing so.

Lord Damocles
18-03-2008, 15:36
1 no one said you must use lemartes, and really for what he is it isn't the biggest deal if you do or don't
You're right. Nobody said that I must use Lemartes. But if I want a 3 wound, leadership 10 chaplain, I have no other option.

I suspect you don't really care and only want to rub it in others wounds. hehe
:eyebrows: Ah, the old 'anyone who wants the best value-for-points is a powergaming git' implication. I do care; which is why I included it in the list of things which I don't like about the Codex.
My army is hardly packed full of cheese (no plasma weapons, no assault cannons, small Death Company in Rhino ect.), but as I said above, I don't want to be spending 120 points on a 2 wound Chaplain when I can spend 125 points on a 3 wound Chaplain with something which can (using Counts-as) be used to represent my Chappie's Grail.


2. No fluff to back this up? really? come on do you need to go back and read it again? the red thirst and black rage and their love of close combat didn't just appear here on the internet. Plus they don't really have any more squads then any one else. They just prefer to field them more. There is still only 2 squads per company except in the reserve one. The only difference is the Vets use jump packs rather than being holed up in in a rhino when they are not wearing terminator armor.
So we agree that Blood Angels don't have any more Assault Squads than any other codex chapter. Why, therefore should they be able to field them instead of tactical squads?


3. If you would rather not use the DC just play a normal army painted BA why complain about a squad that is really is about the only unique unit they get. Is it really that much of an inconvenience?
1. Having Death Company in EVERY battle is not fluffy.
2. Yes it is an inconvenience, as the cost of the compulsary DC is added onto every other squad in the army (except Terminators). They should just be a standard Elites choice.


4. Again are they really that bad? If they are use the sweet Tech-adept option you get in the honour guard.
When was the last time you saw a semi-competitive Blood Angels army with a Techmarine? Yes they are that bad - and so are their sevitors (due to being armed with a single servo arm).
In what way is the Tech Adept 'sweet'? The majority armour rule means that unless he's the only squad member left, he never gets to use his 2+ save; and unless you're intending to leave your expensive Honour Guard standing around next to a vehicle all game in the hope that it gets a gun blown off, you'll never get to use the Blessing of the Omissiah ability.


5. I know it is confusing but they are still trainees it doesn't say they are marines just that they are part of the chapter. Only the space wolves are backwards in this regard.
Hadn't we already established that they are full members of the chapter.:mad: Several bits of fluff stating this were provided earlier in this very thread.

[See - people never believe it:cool:]


6. I agree this is odd they got rid of that choice but I have never met another soul who has used this, I haven't, I have quite literally dozens of characters for my force and this is never one I felt I needed to try. If you want one use Corbulo...
Just because not many people use something does not mean that it should be dropped like a hot potato.

Hrafn
18-03-2008, 21:42
Im not a BA player however I do not understand the need of some people to field a special character every game. I play SW mainly and In all the years I have played them I think I broke out Bjorn 3 times in 2nd ed. Ragnar twice and Logan Grimnar once.

Also, just to check are people fielding Special Characters for Tournament games. not been to the UK GT for years and getting back into the hobby but I would be very disappointed if any GT's allowed special characters.

Special Characters are there to add colour for one off games and senarios (think a linked campaign ending in a big apocalypse battle).

Just my tuppence worth

Listen, the SW specials are of the pre-4th type, and are not really comparable with the newer ones. For one, the old versions are usually very powerful and very expensive, but does not replace any type of standart character. Secondly, they do not generally confer advantages which change army composition or the like. The newer ones does not only replace the best type of character (like BA), but the trend also seem to be towards them changing the FOC (like DA). I never used SW specials since they became a seperate army list, but I'll probably use a BA (properly renamed and converted) special sometime.



So we agree that Blood Angels don't have any more Assault Squads than any other codex chapter. Why, therefore should they be able to field them instead of tactical squads?

:confused: Where do you have the notion that BA does not have any more assault troops than other chapters? Also, on another note I believe that the idea that BA is a Codex chapter is a little bit odd. I realize that some older fluff state this, but does the DC and the prescence of ranks like Sanguinary Priests not go just a little against the Codex?



1. Having Death Company in EVERY battle is not fluffy.

Says who? Because the Black Rage sets in by a predetermined schedule?


2. Yes it is an inconvenience, as the cost of the compulsary DC is added onto every other squad in the army (except Terminators). They should just be a standard Elites choice..

Why? The DC are a quintessional part of the BA, and its not like they are a substandart unit. 90% of BA players will want to use them anyway...


When was the last time you saw a semi-competitive Blood Angels army with a Techmarine? Yes they are that bad - and so are their sevitors (due to being armed with a single servo arm).
In what way is the Tech Adept 'sweet'? The majority armour rule means that unless he's the only squad member left, he never gets to use his 2+ save; and nless you're intending to leave your expensive Honour Guard standing around next to a vehicle all game in the hope that it gets a gun blown off, you'll never get to use the Blessing of the Omissiah ability.

The problem is a SM issue, not a BA issue. The Techmarine entry is not that good, but that is hardly a problem limited to BA. I just consider the The Tech-Adept an optional extra. It's a BA specific bonus, and since we don't have to take it, what's the problem?

I don't want to sound abusive or anything, but you sound like you want to play a Codex chapter and not BA; you don't want assault troops, you don't want a DC, you don't want to use their special characters, and you mention the BA as a Codex Chapter. If you take out the special composition rules, the DC and the special characters, you practically have only the Baal Predator, the Furioso and the Jump Packs on the Honour Guard left. Does that make for unique force worthy of a seperate Codex?

The SkaerKrow
18-03-2008, 23:14
There's a really, really simple solution out there for those that don't like the rules in the Blood Angels Codex. It's called Codex Space Marines, and you can find a copy of it at your FLGS for around $22 (US). In it you'll find no Lemartes! No Death Company! Assault Marines as Fast Attack Choices! And a fully stocked Armory of baubles for your HQ units!

Codex: Space Marines, so easy a Gretchin can do it.

Arryn
18-03-2008, 23:39
On succumbing to the Black Rage...

Hey let's face it, back in the day (2nd ed.) Death Company were a bought unit right? So answer this:

Is there anyone here that thinks making the Death Company a 100% paid for unit would be a bad thing?

I love them either way and would pay for them everytime as i think they are a key fluff unit for the BA, just like the Baal, just like the Furioso. I just think that GW should bite the bullet and stop experimenting with their rules.

On Blood Angel Chapter Organisation...

The Blood Angels have always been a standard Codex Astartes fearing Chapter with the only divergence being an allowance for those who have succombed to the Black Rage, hence the Death 'Company'

The Blood Angels have never flaunted the gene-curse and have never desired to be seen as anything but a Codex Chapter. With this in mind i pose another question:

How do you view the Blood Angels? In your mind have they always been a Codex Chapter with a bit extra, or do you consider them to be something more akin to the Space Wolves in terms of Chapter Organisation and subsequent divergence?

On Lemartes...

I think i've made my view on Lemartes pretty clear already. Lord Damocles says:


Nobody said that I must use Lemartes. But if I want a 3 wound, leadership 10 chaplain, I have no other option.

As far as i'm concerned, for Blood Angels there is no 3 wound leadership 10 Chaplain available. Sure there is a cheap special character there with those kind of stats but otherwise i see it as an unfortunate downside of the list which will eventually even out come 5th ed.

I don't care how people justify taking Lemartes it's still taking advantage of the situation. Question number 3:

Did anyone take Lemartes pre-WD Codex?

Arryn
18-03-2008, 23:42
There's a really, really simple solution out there for those that don't like the rules in the Blood Angels Codex. It's called Codex Space Marines, and you can find a copy of it at your FLGS for around $22 (US). In it you'll find no Lemartes! No Death Company! Assault Marines as Fast Attack Choices! And a fully stocked Armory of baubles for your HQ units!

Codex: Space Marines, so easy a Gretchin can do it.

Ahahaha! GOLD!

tcraigen
19-03-2008, 00:36
There's a really, really simple solution out there for those that don't like the rules in the Blood Angels Codex. It's called Codex Space Marines, and you can find a copy of it at your FLGS for around $22 (US). In it you'll find no Lemartes! No Death Company! Assault Marines as Fast Attack Choices! And a fully stocked Armory of baubles for your HQ units!

Codex: Space Marines, so easy a Gretchin can do it.

Well put. Why complain about the very things that define this chapter as who they are. "I love Impirial guar I just wish they had better armor and I didn't need as many, and that tanks weren't such an important thing to them... really if they are that bad why would people be using them and it's not like you can't use the death company for something... right? If it is a problem find a new army and play them. I rarely use characters and have never played in a tourney where they did allow them, it seems to be a personal gaming club choice to use them or not, and it always seems sad when you limit your creativity or options by building your army around any specific character.

Lord Damocles
19-03-2008, 00:53
I don't want to sound abusive or anything, but you sound like you want to play a Codex chapter and not BA; you don't want assault troops, you don't want a DC, you don't want to use their special characters, and you mention the BA as a Codex Chapter. If you take out the special composition rules, the DC and the special characters, you practically have only the Baal Predator, the Furioso and the Jump Packs on the Honour Guard left. Does that make for unique force worthy of a seperate Codex?

Nowhere in this (or any other) thread have I said that I didn't want to field assault marines or death company:wtf:. I use both.
I play Blood Angels because I like the fluff. What I want from a Blood Angels list is something that is true to that fluff. This is not what you get from the Codex:
- Blood Angels ARE a codex chapter, and always have been. Why then can they field assault squads instead of tactical squads I ask you? No matter how much the Blood Angels favour close combat, they have no more assault squads than, say, the Ultramarines do.
- Marines fall to the Black Rage as they pray before battle. Therefore, is it really concievable that every BA force, no matter how small, will have a couple of raging loonies following it around? What if the BA have been ambushed? do they have time to pray, undergo the rituals of purification, repaint their armour, and get new weapons from the armoury? Of course they don't. What if the force doesn't contain a Chaplain (due to him being somewhere else on another battlefield), is he really going to leave the marines who are supposed to be under his care to run around on their own? Highly unlikely.
- Scouts are full battle brothers. They have the black carapace. Why then do they not generate Death Company?
- The 'Tech Adept' is only included in the list because the honour guard box set contains a techmarine, and GW didn't want to have to repackage it.:rolleyes: (also note how the sanguinary priest in the honour guard box has a reductor, which BA no longer have access to:p).

I've never claimed that the current list is bad per say, or that the 3rd Ed. one was better (although IMO it did have it's good points;)) - what I'm arguing is that the current incarnation of the list has some 'issues' which cause the list to clash with the accepted background material.

Arryn
19-03-2008, 03:24
- Blood Angels ARE a codex chapter, and always have been. Why then can they field assault squads instead of tactical squads I ask you? No matter how much the Blood Angels favour close combat, they have no more assault squads than, say, the Ultramarines do.

I think that the ideology behind the decision to put Assault Marines as Troop selections is not to say that the Blood Angels have literally more Assault Marines than any other Chapter, rather that the Blood Angels have a tendancy to field them more often resulting in them appearing more commonplace, which is where the army list comes into it. By having Assault Marines as a Troops option a gamer can represent an army commander with a propensity for close combat (and field a higher percentage of Assault Marines) or perhaps a more tactical standpoint (and primarily field Tactical Marines).


- Marines fall to the Black Rage as they pray before battle. Therefore, is it really concievable that every BA force, no matter how small, will have a couple of raging loonies following it around? What if the BA have been ambushed? do they have time to pray, undergo the rituals of purification, repaint their armour, and get new weapons from the armoury? Of course they don't. What if the force doesn't contain a Chaplain (due to him being somewhere else on another battlefield), is he really going to leave the marines who are supposed to be under his care to run around on their own? Highly unlikely.

While they don't exclusively fall to the Black Rage while praying, I agree that there would have been many times when no-one has succombed prior to a battle. With that in mind (and as i mentioned earlier) I think the DC should be a fully purchasable Elites choice which doesn't necessarily take up a slot.


- Scouts are full battle brothers. They have the black carapace. Why then do they not generate Death Company?

I'm still not convinced this is true so i'll look it up myself...


- The 'Tech Adept' is only included in the list because the honour guard box set contains a techmarine, and GW didn't want to have to repackage it.:rolleyes: (also note how the sanguinary priest in the honour guard box has a reductor, which BA no longer have access to:p).

Sadly i think your right...


I've never claimed that the current list is bad per say, or that the 3rd Ed. one was better (although IMO it did have it's good points;)) - what I'm arguing is that the current incarnation of the list has some 'issues' which cause the list to clash with the accepted background material.

Clashes are bound to happen given the amount of GW staff that have dabbled around in the BA fluff over the years... :rolleyes:

exsulis
19-03-2008, 03:38
People whinge and whine that the BA or DA or whatever has been 'neutered', but they are really lamenting that their cheese has been taken away!

And I fell out of my chair laughing at that statement. Mind you not from the BA half which was an abused Codex but from the DA dex which was NEVER cheesed out.

JOBusse
19-03-2008, 04:02
Dude you are right, no one is holding a gun to their head, but we can't be surprised to see people fielding Lemartes (or George the BA successor chapter chaplain counting as :eyebrows:) as GW have basically dangled the carrot in front of us offering for just 5 extra points a +1W, +1LD Death Mask wearing Hero! *BAD GW!* :mad:

Special characters should be totally kick **** but with a points cost to match.

To be fair, it's +1 Ld on a Fearless Model that makes it's unit fearless. That almost hardly counts.

Still, I, too, have only recently discovered that I could have Lemartes leading my Death Company if only I would massage five points from my current list. It has been very tempting. VERY tempting.

Lord Damocles
19-03-2008, 10:12
I think that the ideology behind the decision to put Assault Marines as Troop selections is not to say that the Blood Angels have literally more Assault Marines than any other Chapter, rather that the Blood Angels have a tendancy to field them more often resulting in them appearing more commonplace, which is where the army list comes into it. By having Assault Marines as a Troops option a gamer can represent an army commander with a propensity for close combat (and field a higher percentage of Assault Marines) or perhaps a more tactical standpoint (and primarily field Tactical Marines).
I can fully see why BA assault squads ae troops - to give them a 'difference' from Vanilla marines. I'm just not convinced that this is necessary or fluffy.
For example, a Captain will have 60 tactical marines and 20 assault marines at his disposal. Any balanced force he fields would therefore be expected to have three times as many tactical marines as assault marines. Even if he goes for an assault-based strikeforce, since his company is mainly tactical marines, you'd think that some should show up.
I would have suggested something along the lines of having tactical squads as the only troops choice available (like Dark Angels), and giving assault squads a slight points break to encourage people to take them. The advantage of assault squads could be evened out overall by slightly increasing the cost of devastators/whirlwinds etc.
This way you get forces made up primarily of tactical squads (as a marine force should be), with players encouraged to take assault troops as support.


While they don't exclusively fall to the Black Rage while praying, I agree that there would have been many times when no-one has succombed prior to a battle. With that in mind (and as i mentioned earlier) I think the DC should be a fully purchasable Elites choice which doesn't necessarily take up a slot.
We agree! Is this a first for Warseer?


I'm still not convinced this is true so i'll look it up myself...
Why does nobody believe?!?

---------------------------------------

I see I'm getting a lot of hate for using Lemartes. Not that I think that I can alter this (I seem to be beyond redemption here:p), I will just say this:
-Lemartes - 125 points
- Vanilla Master of Sanctity with jump pack, frag and krak grenages, bolt pistol - 125 points
Since they have the same stat line, and the Death Mask really isn't that usefull I'd say that Lem' is only undercosted by around 5-10 points, which in the great scheme of things (immortal falcons FTW!:eyebrows:) really isn't that big a deal, is it?

---------------------------------------

By the way Arryn, nice sig you've got yourself there:D

Hrafn
19-03-2008, 11:28
Nowhere in this (or any other) thread have I said that I didn't want to field assault marines or death company. I use both.

No matter how many WTF's you use, this statement does not mesh with your comments here. You are clamouring for the removal of Assault Marines from the Troop section in almost every post, likewise with your request for an optional DC. How to perceive this other than you don't want to use them :confused:


I play Blood Angels because I like the fluff. What I want from a Blood Angels list is something that is true to that fluff. This is not what you get from the Codex:
- Blood Angels ARE a codex chapter, and always have been. Why then can they field assault squads instead of tactical squads I ask you? No matter how much the Blood Angels favour close combat, they have no more assault squads than, say, the Ultramarines do..

IMHO, it still sounds like you have a specific image of how the BA really are. You want them be a strict Codex Chapter, and all your points are made from this POV. Yet you have still not explained why the BA does not have any more assault marines than other Chapters. Furthermore, what harm is there if they do in this edition? It's not like you are forced to take them.
I must confess that I still don't understand why you do not use the SM Codex to portray your vision of BA? It's not like the minis or your perception of them should change radically by doing so?



- Marines fall to the Black Rage as they pray before battle. Therefore, is it really concievable that every BA force, no matter how small, will have a couple of raging loonies following it around? What if the BA have been ambushed? do they have time to pray, undergo the rituals of purification, repaint their armour, and get new weapons from the armoury? Of course they don't. What if the force doesn't contain a Chaplain (due to him being somewhere else on another battlefield), is he really going to leave the marines who are supposed to be under his care to run around on their own? Highly unlikely..

*shrugs* You can always think up situations where rules for a specific army seem unrealistic. It does not mean that it should not be there for the 80% of situations where the composition is appropiate. Besides, I don't think considerations about "realism" should overrule game design, so I really don't agree with you on this one.


- - Scouts are full battle brothers. They have the black carapace. Why then do they not generate Death Company?
- The 'Tech Adept' is only included in the list because the honour guard box set contains a techmarine, and GW didn't want to have to repackage it.:rolleyes: (also note how the sanguinary priest in the honour guard box has a reductor, which BA no longer have access to:p)...

Perhaps the Scouts' not providing DC members is an indication that this piece of fluff has been changed? It might be that Scouts now ARE similar to other Chapters? Of course, we won't know until a full Codex is released, so the answer to that is blowing in the wind. On an entirely other note, I would like to point to the fact that if the BA initiation process is retained as part of the fluff, it's another point where the BA are hardly a Codex chapter, really.
As to the Tech Adept, you might be right. I have not thought about it since my Honour Guard is entirely converted as I think the BA minis are ugly and dated across the board (except Dante, which is till excellent IMO)


- I've never claimed that the current list is bad per say, or that the 3rd Ed. one was better (although IMO it did have it's good points;)) - what I'm arguing is that the current incarnation of the list has some 'issues' which cause the list to clash with the accepted background material.

I don't disagree as such either, but my perception of the flaws is evidently less severe than yours. My comments as to using another Codex was more out of curiousity than anything else.

Lord Damocles
19-03-2008, 13:49
No matter how many WTF's you use, this statement does not mesh with your comments here. You are clamouring for the removal of Assault Marines from the Troop section in almost every post, likewise with your request for an optional DC. How to perceive this other than you don't want to use them :confused:

IMHO, it still sounds like you have a specific image of how the BA really are. You want them be a strict Codex Chapter, and all your points are made from this POV. Yet you have still not explained why the BA does not have any more assault marines than other Chapters. Furthermore, what harm is there if they do in this edition? It's not like you are forced to take them.
I must confess that I still don't understand why you do not use the SM Codex to portray your vision of BA? It's not like the minis or your perception of them should change radically by doing so?

I don't disagree as such either, but my perception of the flaws is evidently less severe than yours. My comments as to using another Codex was more out of curiousity than anything else.


My image of what the Blood Angels are comes directly from the background material which GW has produced. The Blood Angels are a codex chapter. IMO this means that they don't have any more assault squads than anyone else.

I play Blood Angels because I like the background material, and I want access to cool units like the Death Company, Furioso Dreadnoughts, Veteran Assault Squads etc. (which is why I don't use vanilla marines with red food colouring). The point that I'm trying to make here is that even if I want to take Death Company in MOST games, and even if I quite like having Assault Squads as Troops choices, the background material which has been released over the years doesn't support the BA having Death Company in every engagement, or them having loads of assault squads. Since no new background material has been released, we have to assume that the older material still stands.

DrDoom
19-03-2008, 18:41
.heck all the power gamers i know completely ditched em when the new codex came out...only the old hardcore blood angels continued playing them...

not to be down on blood angels...but as a power gamer myself i no longer fear them coming at me from other power gamers (i.e. tournament play...)

And I would consider that a ringing endorsement for Blood Angels. I might start an army now, I do like the new codex.

Democratus
19-03-2008, 18:49
My image of what the Blood Angels are comes directly from the background material which GW has produced. The Blood Angels are a codex chapter. IMO this means that they don't have any more assault squads than anyone else.

No, they aren't. They are quite deviant from the Codex Astartes. They use different psychic powers, they thrist for blood and have mutations that drive them insane, and they have more assault squads than other chapters.

That is not codex. It's highly divergent.

tcraigen
19-03-2008, 19:18
No, they aren't. They are quite deviant from the Codex Astartes. They use different psychic powers, they thrist for blood and have mutations that drive them insane, and they have more assault squads than other chapters.

That is not codex. It's highly divergent.

hehehe almost right heheh but yet again they don't have any more assault squads then normal they just have the ability to field more as they have a general preference for close combat. The primary companies have 2 assault squads per company along with 6 tacs and 2 devs. They have a reserve company like all others that consist of 10 Ass and their Vets have a tendency to fight as VAS when not in terminator armor. They are different from codex as they have their own form of apothecary and the chaplain has a different role. They have a whole company that goes un-accounted due to the constantly in flux number (due to their COMBAT LUST) The Death company is far from codex legal and barely legal in the eyes of the inquisition. While he is correct in saying there is no proof in the fluff saying they always have DC or field a ton of assault marines it doesn't mean it isn't implied by the various stages of the rules, the creation of the red thirst and black rage which basically tell you that they go mad and want to tear the enemy apart with their own two armored hands.(If thats not enough proof you won't find enough to convince him) . The very choice to give their Commander of the chapter a jet pack implies they like combat. If you want to nit-pik details of vagaries and say show me proof, and debate topics with a lobbyist mentality of arguement we might as well talk about how the Nazis weren't as bad as people made them out to be because there never was a death camp in Germany.(side note they were evil but the statement is true because all death camps were in Poland, I am not a Nazi). I personally love to field primarily tactical squads and troops. I use them to off set a powerful CC punch from my death company, VAS, and other combat units. Every commander has his own battle practices and his selections. If a force happens to have 30 tactical marines a Dev squad and only a five man Ass squad then so be it the chaplain will still as it says inspect his fellow marines on the eve of battle for signs of Sanguinis' curse and remove them from their normal duties and place them in a special unit under his guidance.

Arryn
20-03-2008, 00:05
they don't have any more assault squads then normal they just have the ability to field more as they have a general preference for close combat.

*BAM!*


The primary companies have 2 assault squads per company along with 6 tacs and 2 devs. They have a reserve company like all others that consist of 10 Ass and their Vets have a tendency to fight as VAS when not in terminator armor.

*BA-BAM!*


Every commander has his own battle practices and his selections.

*BA-BA-BAM!*

tcraigen nails it right there.

There was one thing i want to mention and that is regarding the Blood Angels so called 'divergence' from the Codex Astartes. I think it is important to remember that whatever we may know about the Blood Angels, 95% of the rest of the WH40K universe only knows rumours regarding the Chapter's issues. As far as the rest of the galaxy is concerned the Blood Angels are a Codex Astartes Chapter, and i don't think it's correct to say their anything else.

There are of course those within the Administratum and Inquisition who know about the gene-curse however no-one outside of the Blood Angels truley knows the depth of the BA's hidden secret.

fwacho
20-03-2008, 08:04
I really do like the new codex for Ba. toned down for the power gamers but still very competative. In fifth the jump troop space marines counting as troops becomes a HUGE bonus. I actaully only lost one game with my BA since the codex came out. I run them a bit on the weird side. The BA codex is pretty good and fun to play. two thumbs up here.

How wierd... assault squad in drop pod. death company in Rhino. 1 squad termies and 15 scouts, two HQ retinues (NO lemartes or furioso) did get sucked in for a baal Predator. got anice dev squad I've been using since teh old rules too.

tcraigen
20-03-2008, 08:27
*BAM!*

tcraigen nails it right there.

There was one thing i want to mention and that is regarding the Blood Angels so called 'divergence' from the Codex Astartes. I think it is important to remember that whatever we may know about the Blood Angels, 95% of the rest of the WH40K universe only knows rumours regarding the Chapter's issues. As far as the rest of the galaxy is concerned the Blood Angels are a Codex Astartes Chapter, and i don't think it's correct to say their anything else.

There are of course those within the Administratum and Inquisition who know about the gene-curse however no-one outside of the Blood Angels truley knows the depth of the BA's hidden secret.

hehehehe thanks for the support, I was worried I was off point, or getting a little tooo aggressive (I do have problems with visions of sanguinis, I get a little upset) I forgot completely to mention how secretive they are about their "problem"


I really do like the new codex for Ba. toned down for the power gamers but still very competative. In fifth the jump troop space marines counting as troops becomes a HUGE bonus. I actaully only lost one game with my BA since the codex came out. I run them a bit on the weird side. The BA codex is pretty good and fun to play. two thumbs up here.

How wierd... assault squad in drop pod. death company in Rhino. 1 squad termies and 15 scouts, two HQ retinues (NO lemartes or furioso) did get sucked in for a baal Predator. got anice dev squad I've been using since teh old rules too.

thats not that weird I don't even have a furioso, I know, I know for shame, I wish I did but I have never really justified the model. It's just not cool enough, when I see a plastic one or get my but in gear and order from Forgeworld maybe I will but I find that a standard dread with a multi-melta or las-cannon followed with a techmarine and posse of serves. I enjoy the DC rhino my self but must admit it has been a while. I'm glad to see some one else enjoys scouts.

Chem-Dog
20-03-2008, 09:43
Is that something specific to BA? It used to be that Marine Scouts were the 'trainee' Marines who didn't yet have the Carapace.

It's been touched on I know, but Blood Angels aspirants sleep in a sarcophagus for a year and wake up all pretty and buff.


The only thing I don't like is the hidden death co cost, you pay for them either way now so as a purely tactial concern you would be wasting the 25pt premium you pay for death co.

Agreed, Would much rather see a costed unit of random size, perhaps optional costed D6's to be bought although this could lead to entire company sized squads of DC :rolleyes:


1- Scouts as a ELITE choice (this goes for DA also) WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! troops yes, elite no


I figured Heavy Support would be a better slot for Scouts, alright, they might not be able to lay down actual "Heavy Fire" but they are a support element of a Marine army being all stealthy and such...


I like it except for the mandatory DC. It was never like that when they first got their list and the majority of their fluff in 2nd and I don't see why it happens now. The Death Company do not occur at every battle (otherwise think of the BA mortality rate o_O). In 2nd they were a normal squad that was bought if you had a Chaplain in the force. I also don't agree with models getting a discount as a point cost is a measure of effectiveness and shouldn't be altered unless you are getting less or more out of that unit than from the original.

BA players should have the freedom to choose if they want DC in the army at all and the DC should have some other downsides instead to represent that most die after battle (the 2nd edition downside was fair and made them very unique in my mind).

In short the Death Company only show up during important battles (which should be up to the players to judge) and when they turn it is often a day or more before the fighting (thus there is always time to bring in fresh bodies to keep at full strength and the Death Company can be transported to where they are most needed). Almost everything else (besides the cost of Lemartes) is fine but this is still a sticking point for me with the new codex. Forcing choices seems very out of character for the new codices, mandatory units was more of a 3rd edition thing. I hope they change it for the official codex myself but if it stayed as is I likely wouldn't complain as it wouldn't effect me much being a DA player and all. :p


I like the way they are now more tactically flexible, my only small gripe is Assault Squads in the Troops Section

I don't see why they are there either, I would, at the very least have them not counting towards Obligatory units in the FOC


To be fair, it's +1 Ld on a Fearless Model that makes it's unit fearless. That almost hardly counts.

The only time I can figure it'd be of any real use is when you're the target of Mind War....



My first ever army was Blood Angels and although I switched to IG before the 3rd edition I never lost my interest in them.
For the larger part you can't fault the Codex, it's a pretty ballanced list in keeping with the DA list which it, obviously, draws heavily from (and following a trend we can expect most Marine Codexes to follow), the comments above highlight the main issues I have with the Codex, the Scouts and Assault Squads don't feel right in their FOC slots.
The Death Company work better now BUT I still don't think they work right, I'm beginning to think the only way they will work is if taken as an upgrade for a Chaplain.
The one thing that was slightly dissapointing was the loss of the Sanguinary High Preist. I know you get Corbulo and Apothecary standard SP's but I can't help but feel that the option to have a Unique Character type is too good a thing to miss out on.

All in all though, a B+

ercan_sinar
20-03-2008, 11:30
I don't know if its alright to mention it in this tread but I was really saddened that Flesh Tearers are not as distinguisable as they used to be. In Index Astartes articles they are said to succumb to the curse more than the Blood Angels and there were rules to reflect this. and now they are gone.
By the way I am not a power gamer who loves Flesh Tearers for the rules but I like the tragedy that has befallen on them

Democratus
20-03-2008, 17:55
Scouts are Elites because that is their function. They have the Infiltrate skill - which is a skill only available to Elite troops in the new codexes. They are also a rare and valuable asset, representing the future of the Chapter. And since there is no "Rare" category the best place to put them is Elite.

The "Troops" category should be just that, the rank and file boots on the ground. The unit that can most easily be used to absorb attrition and who's role is easiest to replace when lost. It also represents the proclivity of high command decisions. BA commanders feel about Jump Infantry the same as other commanders feel about troopers. So they use them like troops. Nothing in the fluff I've read for BA or DA portrays Scouts as frontline attrition units.

Patriarch
20-03-2008, 20:45
The carapace is the last organ to be added. So it is possible that the aspirants "grow" all the others whilst still in the sarcophagus, and when they emerge are trained up as scouts. The carapace still needs to be fiitted afterwards, and activated when the scout is inducted as a full marine with power armour.

In reality I think scouts were made elite to reduce the number of unfluffy SM armies with the entire troops choice made up of 10 scout models. Now you need at least 10 tactical marines, or 20 if you want HWs. People will only pick scouts if they can make use of them.

I also prefer the assault marines as troops as it better fits the "feel" of the army. Although it doesn't make a huge amount of sense if you analyse it. BA don't have more AMs than other codex chapters. And commanders wouldn't really choose to leave AMs back at base - they'd take everyone available to them. If those AMs aren't fighting in your army they are off fighting for someone else!

Arryn
24-03-2008, 22:12
Scouts are Elites because that is their function. They have the Infiltrate skill - which is a skill only available to Elite troops in the new codexes. They are also a rare and valuable asset, representing the future of the Chapter. And since there is no "Rare" category the best place to put them is Elite.

The "Troops" category should be just that, the rank and file boots on the ground. The unit that can most easily be used to absorb attrition and who's role is easiest to replace when lost. It also represents the proclivity of high command decisions. BA commanders feel about Jump Infantry the same as other commanders feel about troopers. So they use them like troops. Nothing in the fluff I've read for BA or DA portrays Scouts as frontline attrition units.

I have to agree here, it makes more sense to me to regulate the usage of Scouts by placing them in Elites for reasons of fluff than stopping cheesy Scout armies...

Valo
25-03-2008, 03:17
All in all,I don't mind the list,I do like that devestator squads are now a viable choice for us now that the black rage rule's been made DC only,I also like that I can take plasma cannons on my dread(even if they are a tad bit expensive),I LOVE being able to have assault squads as troops as I can now actually have my first company list of terminators and assault squads,which is what the first company is!,Baal pred is now fast,kinda cool,but don't really use it much.

being a blood angel player for almost 10 years nowand honestly,with the old codex,I rearly won a game,I can probably count on 1 hand the amout of games I won with them,I never ever did the whole cheese list,but when the dex came out i think I've maybe only lost 2 games with that army........but I do have a few issues with it.

1)the wargear section being taken,Yes I want my teleport homers and auspex's.

2)points cost,I feel they are WAY to expensive......I know,I know I get a "free" DC guy,but have you ever tried playing a 1000 point list with the new BA?So few guys on the table its insane.

3)where the hell did my sanguinary priest's go as a character?I mean that was a fantastic idea to have as another HQ choice to make the BA even more diffrent then other marines...Ok,I know i can take corbulo for 100 points,and I have a IC priest,but he sucks!

4)scouts are elites......NO,they are troops,always should be,unless they are in the SW list,cause they are veterans then.

5)Assault cannons,well heavy weapons in terminator squads in general...While I've never been a real fan of it(I've never done the 2 assault cannons per termi squad,or multiple land speeders with Ass cannon)and I don agree

honestly,aside from that,I don't have an problems with it.


I also prefer the assault marines as troops as it better fits the "feel" of the army. Although it doesn't make a huge amount of sense if you analyse it. BA don't have more AMs than other codex chapters. And commanders wouldn't really choose to leave AMs back at base - they'd take everyone available to them. If those AMs aren't fighting in your army they are off fighting for someone else!

according to fluuf they actually do have more assault marines then other chapters.the whole first company is trained to fight as either assault marines or in terminator armour.

Arryn
25-03-2008, 06:23
according to fluuf they actually do have more assault marines then other chapters.the whole first company is trained to fight as either assault marines or in terminator armour.

Not sure if i agree bro, the 1st Company is a Veteran Company and hence, Veteran Assault Squads are available to Blood Angels as a selectable unit and thereby showing BA Vet's can either fight in Termie Armour of with Jump Packs... This does not mean any given company has a greater amount of Assault troops (i.e. so many that it takes the Company formation outside of Codex Astartes standards)

Check the 2nd ed. Codex Blood Angels Chapter Organisation chart... :chrome:

tcraigen
25-03-2008, 07:32
Not sure if i agree bro, the 1st Company is a Veteran Company and hence, Veteran Assault Squads are available to Blood Angels as a selectable unit and thereby showing BA Vet's can either fight in Termie Armour of with Jump Packs... This does not mean any given company has a greater amount of Assault troops (i.e. so many that it takes the Company formation outside of Codex Astartes standards)

Check the 2nd ed. Codex Blood Angels Chapter Organisation chart... :chrome:

This is correct. There is no more standard assault troops than any other, Elite squads are different. The Dark angels don't have more terminators than anyone they just have the option of fielding a force composed of terminators. still only have 100. The standard vet squad are just old coots who ride around in their retirement home rhino rather than fight with jump jacks.

Alun
27-03-2008, 01:46
Right - quite late to this party. Like the new codex blah, blah, blah.
Here's a little something I used on 40k online to show how BAs are in fact a codex chapter with slight divergencies - take it as you will.

Blood Angels stick to the codex as close as they can - obvious differences being with DC and VAS (members of the 1st company) who'd rather use jump packs (on occassions) in battle than Terminator Armour.

But, when a company goes into battle, there is no difference in the inital "strike force" than any other vanilla army. When additional troops/vehicles (and/if) come into battle, we know if it's 1st Company they're either going to be in terminator armour or as a VAS - this is the unconventional part. AS as troops, cmon fella, if you've been playing BA as long as I have you'll see it for the scam it is (take away furious charge (rightly so though I grudgingly agree) give them something shiny to forget about it. :D I digress.

Anyhoos, The Blood Angels adhere solidly, for the most part, to the rules of organisation in the Codex Astartes. But, as I've mentioned some aspects of the Blood Angels organisation are not strictly conventional.

The 6th and 7th Companies (both classed as tactical reserve companies) are given special auxiliary training. The 6th Company is specifically trained in the use of the Space Marine bike, and the 7th in the use of the Land Speeder. Those companies are sometimes deployed to act in an assault vehicle capacity.

The 1st Company fights either as Terminator squads, or as assault squads (as mentioned above). This is unconventional, as most Chapters' 1st Company warriors are deployed as tactical troops when not in Terminator armour.

There are a few special ranks in the headquarters staff that don't exist in other Chapters. The Sanguinary Priests are responsible for administering the rituals which transform Aspirants into Space Marines, and also for carrying the blood of Sanguinius in their veins, finding a cure etc. The Curators and Guardians are responsible for taking care of the Chapter's holy relics.

I'll use 3rd company (armagedon war) as an example.
When the 3rd company went to Armageddon, they start off as any other codex company
Company Captain (Tycho in this instance) and staff.
Then we see the 6/2/2 formation
6 Tactical (Rhinos)
2 Devastator (Rhinos)
2 Assault

There's the company. After this, if deemed appropriate certain units/vehicles are then given to the company to use. Now, companies (I'm going from memory here), do have certain amount of vehicles but others come from elswhere in the chapter - or units for that matter. This should give us a better idea of how it all works.

Okay - here goes.
BA Chapter, 3rd Company Task Force, 3rd Armageddon War.

HQ
Capt. Tycho
3rd Company
+ Rhino.

Subsections under HQ authority.
Fleet - Strike Cruiser. Blood of Vengeance.
2x Gladius Escorts
4x Thunderhawk Gunships
3x Thunderhawk Transporter
Librarius - Epistolary
Codicer
SHP - 2x Priests + Rhino

3rd Company
Chaplain Lemartes - he pops up everywhere!!!
6x 10man tactical
2x 10man Assault
2x 10man Devastator
8x Rhino
3x Dreadnought
4x Land Speeder
2x Land Speeder Tornado
4x Land Speeder Typhoon

10th Company
1x 10man Scout

Armoury
3x Baal Predator
2x Predator Destructor
1x Predator Annihilator
2x Razorback with Heavy Bolters
2x Razorback with Lascannons

Now this is just an insight into a BA task force. There is another example in the Apocalypse codex of a BA "Task Force". After digging through old fluff I think I'm starting to understand a few things about the new BA. Yes, we are more assault orientated than most other chapters, even excell at it, but, (IMHO) AS as troops was not to show that we are a "Jump Pack" army, but to show that we are an assault based army - hence opening the way for bikes and land speeders (not at that points cost guv') in our fast attack, thus emphasising 6th and 7th company training. A company, is a company - fluff does not contradict this, in fact, what's written actually shows that a BA company is more or less no different to a smurff company - just slight differences.

carlisimo
27-03-2008, 03:44
Scouts are Elites because that is their function. They have the Infiltrate skill - which is a skill only available to Elite troops in the new codexes. They are also a rare and valuable asset, representing the future of the Chapter. And since there is no "Rare" category the best place to put them is Elite.

...

I can see your point there. It's kind of a pity for me - I'm working on a Crimson Fists army and they're supposed to have lots of scouts - but it does make sense for them to be Elites choices. It'll feel strange to have only one Troops choice though.

Alun
27-03-2008, 12:09
Chaplain Vs Lemartes

Do with this what you will - everyone can take what they wish as a HQ etc. etc. but, time to put a dampner on the I hate Lemartes crew, he's sooo underpriced. I agree fully that it's a shame we can't make our own 'Heroes' up, but I'm a BA player and the HQ choices are my only choices.

Okay, I'm going to compare the 2wound chaplain and Lemartes with their C:SM partners (as there i no difference whatsoever bar ours control DC and Lemartes has the Death Mask).

Blood Angel Reclusiarch VS C:SM Reclusiarch

Base points. 100 VS 85 (alarm bells already ringing)
Jump Pack 20 VS 20
Frag,krak, BP 0 VS 4
Total 120pts VS 109pts (11pts more expensive)

Lemartes VS Master of Sanctity
Base Points 125 VS 100
Jump Pack 0 VS 20
Frag,Krak,BP 0 VS 4
Death Mask(old codex price)10 VS N/A
True Total 135 VS 124

So, take away the Death Mask and you're paying more for Lemartes than a normal Master of Sanctity :rolleyes:. Granted, Lemartes should be 9pts more than he is because of the Death Mask. To summarise, it is the BA Reclusiarch that is too expensive not Lemartes who is not costing enough when both are compared like they are above.

Lord Damocles
27-03-2008, 13:23
First off, I should thank Alun for two very well presented posts;)

Chaplain Vs Lemartes
To summarise, it is the BA Reclusiarch that is too expensive not Lemartes who is not costing enough when both are compared like they are above.
Precisely! Lemartes is OK points wise; but compared to the new (increased) cost of the basic Chaplain, he appears underpriced.
Can everyone put down their pitch forks and torches now?:p


AS as troops was not to show that we are a "Jump Pack" army, but to show that we are an assault based army - hence opening the way for bikes and land speeders (not at that points cost guv') in our fast attack, thus emphasising 6th and 7th company training.
After considering the changes to the list more since the start of this thread, I think that many of the changes were made to encourage Blood Angel players to take those units which they wouldn't have touched with a ten foot barge pole under the old codex.
A few examples:
Assault squads as troops - firstly encourages players to stop using tactical squads to bludgeon the foe to death in close combat; and secondly frees up the fast attack slots so we can take bikers etc. (the main problem with this of course is that the cost of bike squads is still pretty prohibitive, and assault cannon speeders are (IMO) too expensive now to be effective)
Chaplains - a points bump to encourage us to take captains maybe? Well that didn't work did it.:D
Terminators - essentially giving you a free DC marine is a slight incentive to take them
Scouts as elites - probably to stop those annoying min-max scout armies, and encourage people to take more power armoured marines
These 'encouragements' just dadn't work that well...


A company, is a company - Fluff does not contradict this, in fact, what's written actually shows that a BA company is more or less no different to a smurff company - just slight differences.
Whole heartedly agreed! 'Apocalypse' pg.113. Can we all agree on it now?:p

Alun
27-03-2008, 15:50
What would be interesting to see is how players who don't agree with special characters now as bona fide HQ choices actually kitted out their previous codex characters.

I'll start (even though I actually have no problem with characters being HQ choices.

My taking the **** HQ choices (which I only used once as it really did take the preverbiale)

2 Chaplains.
MoS + Reclusiarch.
Jump Packs. Bolt Pistol. frags. Death Masks. One with the Grail. 8 -12 DC (depending on the dice).

My tournament combo.
Sanguinary High Priest. Jump Pack. Lightning Claws. Combat Shield. Death Mask depending on pts.

Epistolary. Might of Heroes. Jump Pack. Frags. Bolt Pistol. Familiar. Death Mask depending on pts, Iron Halo.

What I'd give to have the SHP and Epistolary combo back. Furious Charge, Chosen of Sanguinius rule, librarian with S5 I7 :eek: on the charge - marvellous.

But it's gone, time to move on. I've been a BA player since I picked up Space Crusade 15+years ago (my God, how old has that just made me feel :cries:)

If you want to make a successor chapter to BA, good for you, but I for one am a BA player, and so will use the BA codex to its fullest. So Lemartes is my Master of Sanctity, Dante is my chapter Master, Mephiston is my Lord of Death, Corbulo is my Sanguinary High Priest, and Tycho is my.....ssshhh we don't talk about Tycho :evilgrin:!!!

Lord Damocles
27-03-2008, 16:58
My Chaplain was:

-Master of Sanctity
-Crozius Arcanum
-Bolt Pistol
-Rosarius
-Frag & Krak Grenades
-Bionics
-(The Black) Grail
-Adamantine Mantle
-Usually about 8 Death Company

It wasn't the most effective combo, but it sort of 'evolved' along with my Chaplain's story. Obviously this (293 points) being cut down to the (100 point) Chaplain from the new list hurt a lot - so I converted him a jump pack and used the rules for Lemartes. He's still not as good as he was, but I'm cool with that.

The Inquisitor
27-03-2008, 17:27
I just had a look at the blood Angels codex; I think that it's o.k, and more in line with what GW has been doing with armies for some time.

The_Outsider
27-03-2008, 17:32
-(The Black) Grail


That thing should have never, ever made it into existance.