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Vercingetorix
13-03-2008, 06:52
Hey all. I've played 6th ed. a few times, and am obviously still one of those backwards few who hasn't played a game of 7th yet. Since I don't have time for a game and only occasionally have time to paint, I'm wondering how elite infantry are doing these days.

I went about and got a lot of Dark Elves on the cheap, but also have some Wood Elves and Dwarfs, and Lizardmen are awesome because dinosaurs are awesome. So I'm working on the DE, and eventually they'll be table ready, but in the meantime, how have armies that have a number of pricey infantry been doing lately? The new High Elves seem to be very nice, but from what I see LM lists still tend towards lots of skinks and some Kroxies as being the centre of the army, and the DE remain the DE... we'll see how the new version goes.

But do the poor old plodding Saurus have much to recommend them now as far as the rules go, or must they still rely on being really really ridiculously awesome looking to get played?

And yes, I don't mean in top tier WAAC lists, but in general play in leagues and local tournaments where winning is one notable goal, how do they fare?

The Dwarfs seem to suffer from all the problems they always did, which is fine, but do they have effective ways of dealing with their shortcomings in 7?

Thanks for any opinions.

Mercules
13-03-2008, 13:23
Dwarves - Dwarves make you come to them. If you don't they shoot the heck out of you from across the board. Also, while Dwarves tend to be slow they can not be march blocked which means they will be marching 6" even with an enemy unit close to them.

Lizardmen - The WAAC lists tend to run very heavy on Skinks. Poison is grand. Those that use a Slann will often use Temple Guard and while it is often an expensive unit, it also seems to be a fairly solid unit. Saurus are slow and movement seems to be the name of the game these days. I've seen some solid lists with Saurus on Cold Ones though. They look great and seem effective if they can get better leadership from somewhere.

Elite infantry seems to have the issue that it doesn't get into combat on its own terms. Now your expensive killy unit is fighting in a manner that negates its strengths and so the less expensive option might have been better. Why fight something that you can avoid, shoot, or throw spells at? :)

Conotor
13-03-2008, 13:48
Dark elves are not eleat, they just cost more points. That will change in august, though.

Wood elves are not infantry.

Dwarves are a bit boring due to low movement and dependence on shooting, but their infantry are VERY solid.

Lizzards can make a very good eleat infantry army, as sarri shred enemy infantry, and a back up of kroxigor can dismember cavalry. Just make sure to bring a BSB.

Feefait
13-03-2008, 17:26
I think current trends tend to go against infantry in general. At least infantry with out loads of special rules I guess. I play skaven and lizardmen and the standard foot soldiers are still my core. A couple big units of clanrats and saurus in each list. One infantry unit may not be effective, but en masse is where they shine. There are a number of threads debating the usefulness for Saurus. Most either say they are just tough and will take a beating or scoff at the 4 movement. Check out some of the comments. Also, people here seem to be down on dwarves as well. Movement seems to be king these days.

N810
13-03-2008, 17:38
With Lizardmen its more of a 1-2 punch with your quicker units
marck blocking poisoining and genraly harrasing your enemy
while your saurus march up the middle and pick off the survivors.

have you tried giving your saurus sacred spawings.
or runing a coldone mounted hero with your calvery?

Gorbad Ironclaw
13-03-2008, 17:43
I'm wondering how elite infantry are doing these days.

Same as always IMO. 7th did nothing for elite infantry. The only change even relating to them was the 5 wide instead of 4 wide for ranks, and I'm not convinced it helped them at all. At least not if you took larger units of elites as it also reduce your own rank bonus.

Bit sad really, but elite infantry still isn't that good.

You can certainly get them to work, I rather like using elite infantry and they are not really as bad as there reputation, but they are still not, for the most parts, good.

That Guy
13-03-2008, 19:45
Elite infantry is kind of awful. And took a big hit since they now have to be five wide (making each rank bonus 25% more expensive...yikes!)

Dark Elves succeed by not ever taking Black Guard ( :-( ), MSU, and lots of Dark Riders. High Elves got Always Strike first. Dwarfs aren't really elite infantry, they're just rocks. Saurus are definitely worth taking, it's just that they're almost laughable when compared to skinks. That shouldn't keep you from taking them, though.

Elite infantry lists can survive in a semi-competitive environment (even DE), but you will still be at a disadvantage. I wouldn't let that stop you.

InquisitorFenix
13-03-2008, 20:44
The biggest problem I tend to find with elite infantry is that they are:
A) A big points sink and if not they are;
B) Too small or fragile to last.
They cost too many points per base and in 7th ed. movement is key, they simply can't be everywhere at once.
If you want to have a big rock unit that can take some shooting and magic and keep on coming its going to cost you big in the point department. If you want to have several tough units that can back each other up you're looking at having a small army that may get surrounded. If you go with one of two elite units and back them up with weaker units, such as saurus and skinks for Lizzies, it is all too easy for your opponent to segregate your hard hitters and run through the rest of your army.
I do this to elite armies on a fairly regular basis with my Wood Elves. What good is WS 5, Str 5, and 2 Attacks if you can't get into combat with only one enemy unit, or your elite unit gets a facefull of arrows for its trouble.

chaos0xomega
13-03-2008, 22:52
What about OK? They're army(except gnoblars) is basically pure Elite Infantry.

theunwantedbeing
13-03-2008, 23:07
Dark elves.
If you arent taking control of the game and forcing the fight to go your own way...your going to lose unless you have ungodly luck.
That's "elite" in my eyes.

Elite troops...well chaos mortals fit the bill rather well.
Not marauders of course, but warriors and knights.
Very powerful in prettymuch every way, but costly as well...so you need to use them correctly.

Dux Ducis
13-03-2008, 23:18
How about the latest Grave Guard units? Not terribly expensive, can give them hand weapons and shields or great weapons, and you can heal the unit in the magic phase.

With the blood sword, a vamp can also heal the unit in close combat.

pkain762
14-03-2008, 00:59
i agree about the Ogre Kingdom.... they are almost purely an elite army..... besides the gnoblars..... as said before haha.... but yeah they're elite infantry.... and you can argue that's why it is difficult to win sometimes with them

kain

DoktorZinieztro
14-03-2008, 01:12
Dark elves.
If you arent taking control of the game and forcing the fight to go your own way...your going to lose unless you have ungodly luck.
That's "elite" in my eyes.

Exactly. There's no point in fielding "elites" if you do not intend to force the enemy to engage according to your terms.

If your COK (cavalry, I know, but bear with me) are just going to be sitting around, waiting for an opening while the magic users rain death on them, or if you are going to rank up Witch Elves into a big unit and concentrate on the "heavies" instead of having a couple of units in different flanks of your line DEALING wounds to anyone fool enough to get close to them... Then, there's nothing elite about your choices.

The thing is that many people immediately associate that elite infantry is the "winner" unit each and every time, no matter how it's used... The silly reasoning goes "they are expensive, they should kill weaker things no matter what."

So, they expect rules changes to reflect their preconceptions. And they will rant about not having their way, ad nauseam.

Elite units are to be used with finesse. In tourneys, unless you are really skilled and you have the points margin, basing your strategy on elites is not going to be a good payoff.

Heretic Burner
14-03-2008, 03:48
I'm wondering how elite infantry are doing these days.


If by "elite" you mean expensive in points per model then it can be summed up in a word: dominating.

Expensive elite armies currently occupy the top two positions in tournament standings. The third position? Yes an expensive elite army (granted cavalry in the majority). Of course other elite armies are in no way struggling including such notables as HE and TK.

Naturally not all elite armies are doing well, DE are of course near the bottom of the list. However any notion that "elite" armies are somehow hampered in the game has been proven to be utter nonsense. They are not only succeeding, they are absolutely crushing the competition.

It's the armies not the unit types that are unbalanced in this game.

TheHaunted
14-03-2008, 03:53
Thing with Lizardmen is that movement is key, however they lack this. The solution: Lizards don't move. They make you come at them because if you don't the the SLaan kicks the crap out of you, and the skinks get you. So then you go at them and hit their 3 massive tough units, that kick your ass because they are so good! I love that army

Vercingetorix
14-03-2008, 04:39
If by "elite" you mean expensive in points per model then it can be summed up in a word: dominating.

Expensive elite armies currently occupy the top two positions in tournament standings. The third position? Yes an expensive elite army (granted cavalry in the majority). Of course other elite armies are in no way struggling including such notables as HE and TK.


Which would those be, the top three?
It's kind of heartening to know that quantity isn't the only quality, to be sure. I'm just not a fan of painting, playing, buying, or transporting horde armies.

I don't expect that playing armies with low model counts would be easy, by any stretch, or a no-brainer. That would just bore me as well.

Mercules
14-03-2008, 14:34
i agree about the Ogre Kingdom.... they are almost purely an elite army..... besides the gnoblars..... as said before haha.... but yeah they're elite infantry.... and you can argue that's why it is difficult to win sometimes with them

kain

That is why it is difficult to win with them. If you rank them up then you have basically ONE unit which will have a hard time getting into combat and either shot/magicked to death or surrounded and charged from every direction.

If you go MSU you are down 3-4 CR at the start of every combat unless you maneuver well and can get two units to take on one. When one of your 3 model units costs about as much as some people's staple 20 model units, isolating and hitting with two at once becomes that much harder. :)

Finnigan2004
14-03-2008, 14:45
Be careful Vercingetorix-- everything here is opinion, but I'm not sure that elite infantry is quite as dominating as represented. Elite armies can do fine, but elite infantry is not usually that dominating from what I have seen. The lizardman armies that I've seen win have not included many sauruses-- they tend to be fairly skink heavy. In terms of wood elves, you can go infantry heavy and be very successful. The infantry might not play generally how you envisage it though, being either tree spirits (underpriced) or armed with bows and of the non engagement type (wardancers can do well enough, but are very pricey and not armoured). Dwarfs are a very good army, but in some tournaments they have some difficulty. Others might argue the reasons; but in my experience, the main source of their difficulty seems to be that many of the tournaments around here do not play pitched battles, and the dwarfs are in big trouble when they have to move to secure objectives.

An elite infantry army certainly can do well, but I have found that in general movement is the key in most warhammer games. Elite infantry is doubly handicapped because they have trouble buying enough ranks to generate CR, or to take a charge. If you want to use an army made up of predominantly elite infantry and be competitive, you might want to proxy up some models and give it a try first.

Tiamat
14-03-2008, 17:17
My Lizardmen do alright.

I find the trick is not to go overboard on the size of the infantry blocks and rely on their killing power rather than combat bonuses. My blocks go 6 wide by three deep with full command. Only +2 on the rank bonus, and that generally gets shot down to +1, but the kills 6 Saurus Warriors inflict tend to make up for that.

This smaller size unit then leaves me more points for things like Skink warmachine hunters / meat shield, the Saurus Cav mallet plus everybodies favourite;
Some people say that the only difference between being hit by him and being hit by a freight train is that freight trains don't come back to finish you off, and that his favourite icecream flavour is chocolate with nut sprinkles and Bretonnians, all we know is that he's called the STEG!

Vercingetorix
14-03-2008, 17:39
Be careful Vercingetorix-- everything here is opinion, but I'm not sure that elite infantry is quite as dominating as represented. Elite armies can do fine, but elite infantry is not usually that dominating from what I have seen.

Well, I'm not really looking for something dominating, so much as simply reasonably viable, is all.

Shakubuku
14-03-2008, 17:48
Not meaning to hijack the thread, but haven't played fantasy in quite a while, are the SoC lists still usable, as in can I field a Slayer army?

Mercules
14-03-2008, 18:04
Not meaning to hijack the thread, but haven't played fantasy in quite a while, are the SoC lists still usable, as in can I field a Slayer army?

You can, but I don't think GW ran tournaments use it. Others might. Also using it for a fun game really depends on your opponent.

Shakubuku
14-03-2008, 20:33
Thanks Mercules, I thought it odd that GW stopped selling it or even mentioning Doomseekers in their online store...

winkypinky
14-03-2008, 22:21
Well, I'm not really looking for something dominating, so much as simply reasonably viable, is all.

Then anykind of elite infantry would fill the role. (- black guards maybe, but they are rare anyway)

Mireadur
15-03-2008, 00:41
I think 7th edition actually has helped inmensely the heavy infantry: Now your troops flee through friendlies so you can cover your elites from shooting and cavalry while they get close to the enemy.

DoktorZinieztro
15-03-2008, 19:04
Thanks Mercules, I thought it odd that GW stopped selling it or even mentioning Doomseekers in their online store...

And those were really good and nice-looking models.

Ah, the infamy of it all.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
16-03-2008, 01:54
The only thing about elite infantry is that u have to make your opponent react to what you are doing and not vice versa. An elite army must be finesse in the way it plays because if exposed to too much missile and magic fire the tide will turn quicker. I have done well with my high elves..:)

Dux Ducis
16-03-2008, 02:34
I think 7th edition actually has helped inmensely the heavy infantry: Now your troops flee through friendlies so you can cover your elites from shooting and cavalry while they get close to the enemy.

Ay, my 2pt Skaven slaves are more useful than ever before!