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rcm2216
13-03-2008, 16:20
Do you believe that the Dark Eldar point values are off. Hence making the Dark Eldar army overpowering and unfair in comparison to the current army list and codices in 40K.

I have been reading these post concerning the Dark and Evil Eldar. According to these post this is the most unbeatable and toughess army in 40k. I have yet to see a battle report on this site or any other were a Dark Eldar player has lost. I wonder why many more player do not play this army. I do not know many people who play Dark Eldar at all, save three in an entire city of 5 million (of course I know there are more silly rabbits). Anyway, with all the accolades and brag from the dark eldar players, I think there point values are way off and out of date with the current game of 40K. They are over performing and out performing all other armies in comparative point values. Hence I believe they are broken and unfair in their current use. It is almost as if the units should be a few points higher in order to balance them with the rest of the armies. i.e. They increased the point values of the Eldar army weapons in order to make them compartive and fair to other armies without destroying their technology with the exception of the star cannon getting one less shot.

Do you agree or not, what is your opinion. I might be wrong in my analysis since I am a four year hobbist.

AmKhaibitu
13-03-2008, 17:07
Dark Eldar win so much because the players know how to use them, not because they're over-powered.
If anything some of the values would be better getting decreased due to units not being viable or losing whatever made them special (all bikes turbo-boosting, I'm looking at you.)

So when you make do with what you have that works, it works well.

The_Outsider
13-03-2008, 17:10
DE points cost for some things are actually about right - only when compared to anything post Codex:Eldar.

Its actually come full circle - wyches were too good before - but when compared to Eldar, Chaos and Orks they are about right - maybe 2 points too little.

Other things are waaaay overcosted - like scourges.

rcm2216
13-03-2008, 17:37
The post on this site and the way it is played out from the battle reports is empirical data recorded that speak for themselves. Even the Dark Eldar players say other do not stand a chance. I have submitted post after post, and this the replies I get: it is hopeless, just tuck your tail and run, and I could not tell you because I have never seen them lose.

I wish that Dark Eldar would not let their bais show. Be honest, a codex that old has to out of sync in a lot of fashions and ways. I am sure GW is using a different scoring value and scale since Codex Dark Eldar. Compared to what Outsider posted, the Dark Eldar had the same problem the old Eldar Codex had of too high of point values for some units and to low for some others. I can agree the point value guy should have been fired, when he did those editions of codex. I agree with his point of some units being to high in value. However, he did not state that most take the ones that I am accusing of being the most abusive and lopsided like wyches, raiders, and webway portal, vehicle wargear, wargear in general. The same items cost a lot more in new armies, hence Dark Eldar can take more of what works the same in other armies. 4th edition Marines are like this in comparison to Blood Angels and Dark Angels. You can get more powerfist at 15 points in an army but less at 25 points in an army. Dark Eldar accomplish the same thing as the 4th edition marines by being able to take more items at a cheaper cost. Hence the Dark Eldar are outdated. They able to be more killie without the paying the same cost.


Thats when you build the same force I keep seeing of:
Raider- Archon, Incubi with all the trimmings
Raider- Wyches, Succubi with all the trimmings
Raider- SOS
Raider- Warriors with all the trimmings
Warriors, 2 Dark lances
Warriors SOS
Warriors SOS
Ravenger, dark lance, two disenegrators
Ravenger SOS
Ravenger SOS


I have on occassion seen weaver jetbikes. Maybe a talos rarely.
This is standard cookie cutter list I have mostly seen.

Meriwether
13-03-2008, 18:33
I rarely bring the same list twice, but no matter what list I bring it always faces the same challenge: It's a glass hammer.

If my opponent is dumb enough to let me continue to assault, annihilate, consolidate into another unit, annihilate, consolidate into another unit (etc, etc) then they're going to lose, every time.

In my personal experience I've never seen (nor fielded) a list with three Ravagers in it, and if I were playing against it I'd be pretty happy -- while they carry a simply stupid amount of firepower, they're terrifically easy to knock out of the air.

If DE need fixing, it is in lowering the cost of some troops that simply aren't worth their points (hellions, reaver jetbikes, etc.)

Meri

The_Outsider
13-03-2008, 23:36
Thing is - reavers are badly overcosted but are better than hellions due to extra T and save (and S while we are at it).

IMO talos is great - but its goddamn slow and considering 80% + of a DE list would be moving 12" or more a turn it just gets left behind to be eaten by anti tank fire.

winkypinky
14-03-2008, 00:15
To be completely honest with you.

I can only remember ever having lost 8 games with my DE and those hurt so bad in my memory and black twisted hearth.

1st. First game with them: Beginner army without any dark lances, wyches, ravager and only 1 raider. Against 750 points space puppies with 4 dreanoughts... happy days indeed for my first go with the army.

2nd. Against BA player in a "escape" mission. He had to get half units to leave board edge. 24" to board edge. His army: 3 seperate landspeeders + 2 rhino squad. He got first turn... much grumbling from my side.

3th. Against a tyranid player. Not much to say than my archon failed his first ever inv save... and that was the direction the game all the way for me.

4th. Tank shocked out of the field by a huge speed freak tankshock mob. In a tournament.

5th. 2nd day of same tournament forgot to open my portals with my heamonculuses... (I blame hangover) much pain followed.

7th. Random game against 3 bassie imp army that got first turn and really lucky on indirect.

8th. 400 point game against new orks. "I got horded" can pretty much descripe it.

That is the cases were I find Dark Eldar losing. But otherwise they can pull through much more than you think even with half your army gone. Because you should still remember -armour save you actually got pretty good stats.

So maybe yes they are a little OP. But they are rare and I dont really play 40k tournaments (mostly fantasy) so I can not say much about that scene.
But I find some choices in the DE book a bit underpriced, and the rest some of the most overpriced things ever to have sneaked into a codex. Which just limits your choices down to 3 armies basicly, 60 warrs w/dark lances; 6 5man raider squads; Portal army. And each army has a tooled up archon + wyches and ravagers.

The_Outsider
14-03-2008, 00:51
Outside a couple draws my DE have lost less than 8 times in just over a year.

However I put that down to myself as a player (please note im not trying to gloat) - once you knwo how 40k as a game works any army is lethal under your control - DE or GK - it doesn't matter.

rcm2216
14-03-2008, 00:51
Some is being honest as a Dark Eldar player. I agreed with Outsider as well as you that some of the choices in the codex are overpriced, but the ones everyone mostly take are to good at what they do at the price they do it in comparison to other armies in 40K. Hence most of the time when you play them, other players are already playing up hill trying to match point for point.


I think all Dark Eldar players are spot their opponent one hundred points, maybe even two hundred.
YES ANY army is deadly in the right hands. But what happens when two people of the same playing skill and experience with their prospective armies play. According to the post on this site, the Dark Eldar always win.

Hokiecow
14-03-2008, 02:01
Who's going to post how that got gang banged!? Of course people are only going to post their wins. Try playing DE and see how many times you win. DE have a steep learning curve and are very unforgiving, but if done right they can bring the slaughter.

If you see the same army list over and over, then it should be easy to stop and very predictable. Just put a little thought in to your tactics and you shall overcome.

ShaiAhlude
14-03-2008, 02:13
There are a few reasons DE armies seems so good.

1) Most DE players have spent much time playing 40K, and DE are probably thier 2nd or later army, they have lots of experience with 40k in general
.
2) Most opponents are MEQ. And vs. MEQ, DE are lethal. So much of thier list makes a mockery of power armor.

3) DE units either work or they don't. It only takes a few games to find out which is which. The upshot of this is that most DE lists have very few "dead" points, everything is used to its advantage, or it does'nt work at all.

Now, I've won store tournaments and campaigns, but I'm not unbeaten. IG, Nids, Orks, Eldar, all have wins against me. I win more than I lose, but I do lose.

The Orange
14-03-2008, 02:16
General things I've herd.
DE are played mostly by veterans.
Since DE are so rare, few people are even prepared to fight a battle against them.

Personally I don't know if it's true, but it would make sense. Does this mean DE need a nerfing? I don't think so. DE will need a nerfing the day they start dominating tournaments. As that hasn't IMO happened to any extent, I'm not prone to believing that DE are really that overpowered, more likely their just owners do know how to use them well. And/or they keep facing really bad players :p.

intellectawe
14-03-2008, 02:31
General things I've herd.
DE are played mostly by veterans.
Since DE are so rare, few people are even prepared to fight a battle against them.

Personally I don't know if it's true, but it would make sense. Does this mean DE need a nerfing? I don't think so. DE will need a nerfing the day they start dominating tournaments. As that hasn't IMO happened to any extent, I'm not prone to believing that DE are really that overpowered, more likely their just owners do know how to use them well. And/or they keep facing really bad players :p.

This is where I get most of my wins from. From what I outlined in your quote. The army is so rare, that people have no clue what to do when facing them.

And I am getting a bit tired of this myth that DE only has one or two builds. Chalk that up to the internet gossip ring that are the Warhammer online forums.

Check out my on going campaign. You will see no traditional builds, yet I bent my opponents over like their is no tomorrow.

http://www.thewizardswall.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=125&forum=10

I even take scourges....

I will be the first to admit it, Dark Eldar has made me very pompous and arrogant. But when I have lost, what, 4 games in the past 3 years, out of, what, 40+ games, in both friendly games and GT's ( 2006 Necro before it was a GT ) you sort of get that feeling growing on ya.

And the response I get from just about every player? "Oh wow that army is cheesy. That army doesn't take skill at all."

You know its pretty bad when you build a DE list and TRY not to wipe out your opponent by the 4th turn. I mean, I take Scourges for crying out loud!

There is a little known secret about DE that only DE experts really know... I'll let you all in.... 99% of posters online and gamers in real life actually have NO idea what they talk about when they talk about DE at all. DE does not win because the list is strong, DE wins because pro players learn how to control the phases with DE. Most players treat Warhamemr 40k as a tactless version of Fantasy. It has guns, must be for kids. Well, old timer DE players know that the game goes VERY deep into strategy and tactics, and Dark Eldar are a perfect army to exploit the game's core rules and dominate. Our only weakness?

Boards without Terrain :)

I can bet, that pro DE players like Kwi and The_Outsider know they'll win a game during deployment alone.

I honestly think, Games Workshop did the BEST job at writing a near perfect codex with the Dark Eldar. Period. No other codex even comes close to how an army is supposed to play on the table top coupled with their fluff and game feel. Dark Eldar codex, despite old ass models and scourges, is perfect in my eyes. GW can keep this codex for another 10 years for all I care.

/arrogant ego off

- edit -

Oh I agree with The_Outsider... For years I thought many DE units were under priced, but compared to the latests codecies coming out, De are starting to feel 'normal' again. I don't mind 10 point dark lances when my friend fields 15 Lootas :)

toxic_wisdom
14-03-2008, 03:06
"...I think all Dark Eldar players are spot their opponent one hundred points, maybe even two hundred.... YES ANY army is deadly in the right hands. But what happens when two people of the same playing skill and experience with their prospective armies play. According to the post on this site, the Dark Eldar always win..."

I was going to let this thread slip by... until the comment about a point handicap above was made.

For starters - quite the opposite exists with the current DE Codex: things need to be lowered in points, especially when compared to existing updated units - etc. Perhaps then you'll see some variance in lists.

The units you generally see now are taken because they are the most effective for their points. Does their effectiveness-to-point value ratio make them overpowered ? no...

Wyches for example are without a doubt the better of the close combat units in the DE Codex, and they are certainly one of the better close combat units in the game. However when properly kitted the standard Wych comes in at 14 points per model. Add in the Succubus ( kitted ) and Raider transport and the unit comes in around 223 points.

Not exactly a cheap unit, but you get from them what you pay for - when they reach close combat. Until then they are flying around in a paper airplane.

...too many thoughts running through my mind right now - trying to focus...

Here's a few brief closers.

The victories we achieve are rightfully earned: the learning curve is steep enough not to mention the "no mistake" style of play. If DE players are walking over opposing lists, don't look too quickly at the dex and claim its overpowered/under priced... Take a look at the opposing list as well, including the opponent.

In a nutshell - DE earns victories because opponents allow the army to do what its best at: either taking hits from triple dis ravagers - allowing wyches to get into assault - running vehicles in the open versus lance teams - etc...

...not because of their points.

Baaltharus
14-03-2008, 03:07
Dark Eldar win so much because the players know how to use them, not because they're over-powered.
If anything some of the values would be better getting decreased due to units not being viable or losing whatever made them special (all bikes turbo-boosting, I'm looking at you.)

So when you make do with what you have that works, it works well.

I disagree, as the OP said the DE list IS overpowered in a BIG way. It doesn't take much skill to win with the DE considering they can outmanouver, outshoot and outclose combat pretty much every army in the game. rcm2216 summed it up well, the best units are undercosted for what they do (34" assault for a Wych squad?! I mean its a joke), the same builds are seen again and again complimenting the same play style and tactics every time. The army needs changed in a considerable update, especially the ridiculous wargear and the units and upgrades that are seen every single game.

toxic_wisdom
14-03-2008, 03:12
"...Oh I agree with The_Outsider... For years I thought many DE units were under priced, but compared to the latests codecies coming out, De are starting to feel 'normal' again. I don't mind 10 point dark lances when my friend fields 15 Lootas..."

And how about we compare Reavers to Shining Spears... Uughh !!!

toxic_wisdom
14-03-2008, 03:17
"...No there not, as the OP said the DE list IS overpowered in a BIG way. It doesn't take much skill to win with the DE considering they can outmanouver, outshoot and outclose combat pretty much every army in the game..."

No skill huh ? Swing by my way and I'll let YOU use my DE army against ME. If you THINK its a simple no brainer army then I will surely crush you with it...

Please... DE is a finesse army that DOES require skill and tactics to perform well.

intellectawe
14-03-2008, 03:30
No skill huh ? Swing by my way and I'll let YOU use my DE army against ME. If you THINK its a simple no brainer army then I will surely crush you with it...

Please... DE is a finesse army that DOES require skill and tactics to perform well.

how Ironic :)

At my local game store, on it's website forums ( you can find it on the link in my previous post ) I offered for ANYONE during this Saturday's campaign game to challenge me ( due to campaign rules, I get challenged ) and then switch armies.

I said im my post, I can switch armies with ANYONE in the store, and STILL bend my DE over with whatever list they have. People at my store assume DE takes no skill because of how I play DE. As much as I like having a big head, it is kinda insulting my DE list when they say DE takes no skill.

I hope some poor schmoob takes me up on my offer.

Oh, I agree with shining spear :) I didn't think of that, ha! Our Reavers, while decent, are pretty crappy!

Brockafally
14-03-2008, 03:30
I disagree, as the OP said the DE list IS overpowered in a BIG way. It doesn't take much skill to win with the DE considering they can outmanouver, outshoot and outclose combat pretty much every army in the game. rcm2216 summed it up well, the best units are undercosted for what they do (34" assault for a Wych squad?! I mean its a joke), the same builds are seen again and again complimenting the same play style and tactics every time. The army needs changed in a considerable update, especially the ridiculous wargear and the units and upgrades that are seen every single game.

Umm.. 34" assault? Let's break down how that happens.

First you need to roll the 12" assault on the combat drugs at the beginning of the game. Ok that's a 1/6 chance.

Then you move 12" and get your 3" get out of vehicle (2" for distance 1" for base of model) and then you need to roll 6 for a fleet roll. So that's another 1/6 chance.

That's best case scenario. That doesn't always happen, and when most Kabal (not wych cult) based armies take at most one unit or maybe two units of wyches it's a rarity to get that at best.

You have your powerfists for 25 points. We get our versions for 20 points and it's stuck on a toughness 3 model with a 5+ save (warrior) or a 4+ invulnerable (wych). We pay for that in fragility.

Please, there are units in the DE codex which are heavily overpriced for what they do and there are units which are properly priced because even though a 10 warrior 2x Dark Lance squad costs 100 points it gets swept away from a stiff wind.

Oh and when I play my DE I actually think about where I move and how best to maximize my shots. When I move a raider into the open I assess what's gonna kill it and try and neutralize it first. When I play my marine armies I Don't even need to think about what to do. They are so ******* forgiving for mistakes.

DE when they have the momentum going for them are extremely difficult to beat. You stop that momentum and they crash and burn fast.

So please, don't tell me they have no skill. Maybe you should try playing DE instead of claiming that by watching a DE player (who probably has years of experience under his/her belt) that it's easy.

EDIT: Darn, two other people posted before me. hahaha..

intellectawe
14-03-2008, 03:36
Hello Brock! I am not familair with you ( due to your rarity around these forums ) but after reading what you just posted, it is VERY refreshing to have another DE player who knows the ins and outs of the army.

The one big 'disadvantage' DE have, and it is also a major issue with 40k, is that we actually DO suffer from our leadership.

De has leadership of 8. Period. No rerolls. No Fearlessness. Heck, to even GET a +1 leadership from our wargear we have to kill a model first!

So yes, pinning works on us. And that super cheap 100 point warrior squad you mentioned? Yes it blows in the wind, it also runs away very easily.

This is why I adore our book. And why I praise it as being the most balanced army in the game ( in my opinion of course ). We are powerful, but we have to play the game with NO leadership crutches that other armies have. And that speaks volumes about an army that plays in a game where everyone else is fearless / re rolls / whatever.

Leadership 8. How I love thee!

Baaltharus
14-03-2008, 03:42
No skill huh ? Swing by my way and I'll let YOU use my DE army against ME. If you THINK its a simple no brainer army then I will surely crush you with it...

Please... DE is a finesse army that DOES require skill and tactics to perform well.

I didn't say no skill, I said little skill. The DE list is without a doubt one of the most powerful in the game with easily some of the best units and HQs in the game. Considering this the arrogance of some of the posters is hardly suprising. I'll certainly concede that in the hands of skilled player the DE list is nigh unstoppable if built right. The problem is that the most common builds give such an opening advantage with underpriced heavy weapons and raiders, ridiculous squads and VERY powerful HQ choices even a mediocre player a very early advantage. Being a veteran of some 11+ years I recognise that 40k is as much about manouver as it is about shooting and assaulting. The DE take these factors to the extreme because as I've said and as any DE general worth their salt can tell you the army excels better in all these areas at once than any other.

toxic_wisdom
14-03-2008, 04:07
"...I think there point values are way off and out of date with the current game of 40K. They are over performing and out performing all other armies in comparative point values. Hence I believe they are broken and unfair in their current use. It is almost as if the units should be a few points higher in order to balance them with the rest of the armies..."

Okay lets look at some of these under priced / over powered units in the DE Codex and how they might compare to other more modern units in the game: especially their Kin - the Eldar.

Here are some basics...

Scourges = 10 man squad with four Splinter Cannons = 240 points

-- with the exception of the Jump Infantry you're better off taking two 10 man Warrior squads with two Splinter Cannons in each. You'll double your model count - have two scoring units instead of one - able to target two opposing units instead of one - and oh yeah you'll save 40 points.

-- so what do you suggest ? raise the base point cost of a DE Warrior ?

On that note... 10 DE Warriors versus 10 Eldar Guardians

-- which do you think has the upper hand ?

Ten Mandrakes or Ten Grotesques

-- same squad size as ten space marines, and for the same number of points for the unit. But wait - sure these units have unique rules but they don't have character upgrades or weapon options. Point for point one basic Space Marine equals one Mandrake / Grotesque.

-- still think the DE units are over powered / under costed ?

Three Reavers including two Blasters vs Three Shining Spears

-- both unit types are Jetbikes so they balance out at the start. But... check out the options and capabilities for both ( including character upgrades ) then compare the point totals for each unit.

-- Reavers are truly over powered / under costed right ?

toxic_wisdom
14-03-2008, 04:16
Now I will agree there is one particular point issue with the DE Codex that makes absolutely no sense: the Terrorfex versus the Horrorfex...

Clearly the Horrorfex is a better weapon ( range - mobility - etc ) yet it costs one third the price of the Terrorfex.

Baaltharus
14-03-2008, 04:24
Okay lets look at some of these under priced / over powered units in the DE Codex and how they might compare to other more modern units in the game: especially their Kin - the Eldar.

Here are some basics...

Scourges = 10 man squad with four Splinter Cannons = 240 points

-- with the exception of the Jump Infantry you're better off taking two 10 man Warrior squads with two Splinter Cannons in each. You'll double your model count - have two scoring units instead of one - able to target two opposing units instead of one - and oh yeah you'll save 40 points.

-- so what do you suggest ? raise the base point cost of a DE Warrior ?

On that note... 10 DE Warriors versus 10 Eldar Guardians

-- which do you think has the upper hand ?

Ten Mandrakes or Ten Grotesques

-- same squad size as ten space marines, and for the same number of points for the unit. But wait - sure these units have unique rules but they don't have character upgrades or weapon options. Point for point one basic Space Marine equals one Mandrake / Grotesque.

-- still think the DE units are over powered / under costed ?

Three Reavers including two Blasters vs Three Shining Spears

-- both unit types are Jetbikes so they balance out at the start. But... check out the options and capabilities for both ( including character upgrades ) then compare the point totals for each unit.

-- Reavers are truly over powered / under costed right ?

Your looking at the rubbish units that aren't used in any competitive list. Scourges suck, agreed but but obviously the problem isn't with the DE warriors its with the scourges and they should be changed accordingly.

10 DE warriors are better than 10 Guardians.

Mandrakes suck, again one of the overcosted, never use them in a million years units. Grotesques have their place (especially with a HQ supporting there assault).

Reavers are a pretty poor unit but the one you describe is decent enough vs armour and if used well can easily make its points back.

Since you've missed out all the units which people consider powerful and useful, then yes I do consider DE undercosted.

toxic_wisdom
14-03-2008, 05:05
"...Since you've missed out all the units which people consider powerful and useful, then yes I do consider DE undercosted..."

The point I was getting at, and I'd rather not go unit-4-unit and point-4-point throughout the entire dex, was that a majority of DE units are rarely taken because a majority of DE units are not WORTH taking ( point wise ).

Those that are worth taking have their ups-n-downs and in no way should be viewed as overpowered for their point cost when taking the good with the bad into comparison.

intellectawe
14-03-2008, 05:18
@Baaltharus

Sorry, every unit in the DE Army is competitive except for one, Scourges. In my battle reports, I use all the units to devastating effect. Grotesques are severely underrated, and Mandrakes are able to stop and break a Tau Fleet of Fish player who foolishly moves to an objective.

Don't generalize. You may not see some units in ONLINE lists, but in real life, they are used.

@Toxic

Yeah... terrorfex is 3 times to cost of the horrorfex, ha, I never actually thought of that :)

rcm2216
14-03-2008, 05:40
Lets not go to the extreme and get defensive, only modesty and honesty can establish truth. I know like everyone should know that last time I checked given all the typos and misreading in a published codex GW employees that produce, analyze, and edit these codices are human hence imperfect. They make mistakes even in their lastest codex. I know they made mistakes in creating the Dark Eldar codex especially given the factors that the game was still in its morphing stage in comparison to the tweaking going on now. So there are some point value mistakes of overpricing and underpricing. We seemingly disagree which is which. They codex is old and no one can convince me that it is in perfect sync with the fourth edition let alone the fifth coming up. I am sure the standards of mearsurement for point values have changed with the change of the principles, definitions, and spirit of the game. The points for the powerfist changed for a reason. Nothing in the Dark Eldar codex has changed for any of these reasons in concert with the new concepts of wargear value, application, and definitions.

Cuda
14-03-2008, 06:00
Do you believe that the Dark Eldar point values are off. Hence making the Dark Eldar army overpowering and unfair in comparison to the current army list and codices in 40K.

I have been reading these post concerning the Dark and Evil Eldar. According to these post this is the most unbeatable and toughess army in 40k. I have yet to see a battle report on this site or any other were a Dark Eldar player has lost. I wonder why many more player do not play this army. I do not know many people who play Dark Eldar at all, save three in an entire city of 5 million (of course I know there are more silly rabbits). Anyway, with all the accolades and brag from the dark eldar players, I think there point values are way off and out of date with the current game of 40K. They are over performing and out performing all other armies in comparative point values. Hence I believe they are broken and unfair in their current use. It is almost as if the units should be a few points higher in order to balance them with the rest of the armies. i.e. They increased the point values of the Eldar army weapons in order to make them compartive and fair to other armies without destroying their technology with the exception of the star cannon getting one less shot.

Do you agree or not, what is your opinion. I might be wrong in my analysis since I am a four year hobbist.

The Dark Eldar have a steep learning curve, but once mastered are an incredible fighting force. They are far from overpowering, my Son's Nid army (Steeler Troops) can pretty much walk all over me (need more Wyches!) The DE have a tough time with Tau, Orks & IG. The DE are what I call a 'paper' army, they pretty much cover 'rock armies like marines.
At a tournament I went against a Blood Angel army I proceeded to kill every model and used a lowly Dracon with an Agonizer and no retinue, just lots of warriors, Raiders, Splinter Cannons and Dark Lances.
With the DE you can do feints, deception and sneaky tactics, even the old British firing stance work well. The DE are truly a blast to play, and I like the idea that I play a unique and rare army.

Cuda...

Cuda
14-03-2008, 06:25
I disagree, as the OP said the DE list IS overpowered in a BIG way. It doesn't take much skill to win with the DE considering they can outmanouver, outshoot and outclose combat pretty much every army in the game. rcm2216 summed it up well, the best units are undercosted for what they do (34" assault for a Wych squad?! I mean its a joke), the same builds are seen again and again complimenting the same play style and tactics every time. The army needs changed in a considerable update, especially the ridiculous wargear and the units and upgrades that are seen every single game.

I've been playing the DE since it's release in 98', played against every army since then, well ok, haven't played against Daemon Hunters. I found that the DE are not as fast as you think. Think about it? A Nid army can eventually catch even a Raider, yeah they need a '6' to hit but the Nids have an incedible amount of attack dice and all they need is a couple to bring down the raider. Wyches are at the same Initiative as a Steeler but a squad of 12 will pretty much whittle away the wyches.
Outshoot? IG have a lot of blast templates that are murder on the DE, A shooty Marine army, Sisters, Necrons and Tau can pretty much outshoot the DE.
If you shoot down a Raider full of Wyches then you pretty much took the wind out of their sails, the 4+ invulnerable doesn't help here at all.
I pretty much run a Dracon with Agonizer, Pistol, 4 Incubi, 5 warriors, 2 Splinter Cannons and a Raider...Notice that i did not list a Shadow Field or Combat Drugs? Not every single game from my neck of the woods.

Cuda...

Hicks
14-03-2008, 07:11
Hi all

I'm going to had my grain of salt because I've read a lot of things in this thread that I disagree with.

First, there is no perfect balance in this game. Some armies are more powerfull than others and some units are better than others for the same point costs. There is no way in hell that someone here will make me believe that with enough practice any army can be as powerfull as the next. There is a reason for this. First there is no perfect way for the designers to assing point values. The way they do it is arbitrary, even if they do their best to keep things fair. Also, the core rules and the codices evolve at a different pace. What is good today may very well suck tomorrow and become broken the next day. If everything was so nice and perfect they wouldn't need to make new rules. Am I the only one that remembers the fact that GW actually redid the DE codex because it used to suck big time? They didn't release new background, no new shiny minis, just new rules to make the army playable again.

Sure tactics accounts for a lot in a game, but there is a part of "rock-paper-scisor" to it also. In my experience, against a friend who is my age (23) and has as much gaming experience as me, so not a 12 year old noob, this is true. Not once have I ever come close to beat him with my GKs. And that would be because he is a DE player, so he knows the game and is army inside and out, he is a master strategist and most importantly, EVERYBODY is a worse player than a DE veteran??? I call total and utter BS on this. Some posters already said that they struggled against hordes like Orks, IG and nids. My friend admits that those armies are harder to beat too. Is it because those people have sudden drops of IQ or because those armies don't suffer as much as MEQs from the dark eldar's ability to make a mockery of small elite heavily armored units?

Now the DE codex as some really bad units in it, I agree with that totally. But, the good stuff, is just too good. Again, I think that has a lot to do with the game evolving faster than the codex. Wytches in a raider are terrifying opponents for pretty much anything in this game. They are just too fast to be avoided. So much that they force the opponent to deploy as close to his table edge as possible, because in the event that the DE player would win first turn, he could get a couple first turn charges. Hormagaunts are also fast, but they aren't good at killing stuff at all and they are as easy to kill as any eldar. They still cost a lot of points though, why? Because they pay trough the roof for their speed. The same goes for heavy weapons, the DE can field a huge number of cheap reliable lance weapons. Sure guards can field lots of missile lauchers and lascanons too, but they don't hit as often and cost a lot more (especially since they can't concentrate as much heavy weapons as DE in each squad).

What I'm trying to say is that the usual huge win ratio of DE players has as much to do with the codex as it as to do with their skill.

rcm2216
14-03-2008, 07:31
Type some more Hicks. They want to take all the credit for having superior skills than everyone else. I am sure they have beaten people consistently that have more experience than they. If they played the same guy different alternative army (most people of more than five years experience have at least two armies) they would get owned (with one of the major factors being they were not playing Dark Eldar).


I sound like a Dark Eldar hater, but I am not. I will play anyone including a Dark Eldar player at anytime. I play for fun, not to win every game (yes I play hard to win). I just wanted to know if my ascertians and estimates was true concerning the point value and how successful the army seems to be due to them needing a new codex. It is not the players fault for playing the army of his liking that GW refuses to update. So, I say play on Dark Eldar play on. Just know that your wyches should be about the same price as a harlequin and your dark lance should be somewhere near the price range of an Eldar Bright lance (and there should be no way in hell a warrior squad should be packing more than one dark lance around).

jansuza
14-03-2008, 09:35
Personally, I think that there are a certain amount of things that, if done right, can make a DE army very good. Deploy your portal in the right position (which is by no means easy) and your wyches will most likely be within charge range. You don't need 12" assault, you'll probably make it in if you use some enemy units as a springboard. This sounds simple in my head but I think I've played with them so much they're pretty much on autopilot for me. I think it takes a long time for some players to figure out how to do this, but once you have these basics down, DE are very fearsome.

Okay, so now you've got a list that can pretty much beat most medium lists, its true. If you do the above right, you'll beat MOST armies every time I reckon. The difference comes in with the experienced lists you face.

As in the first paragraph, if you do these basics right, you'll do well, but the exact same can be said about the IW army that slowly edges around terrain, the MC nid army that uses cover correctly to approach or the Eldar army that deploys and moves its falcons as to not have them die. On average, they too will beat most armies if they just do simple things right. You can say the same about pretty much any army really. There are certain things you have to know, and most DE players know this. They have to. We're not mentioning the untold thousands of DE players who didn't figure this out and mothballed their army. We don't mean to be boastful, I think you've just found some of the better (if not best) DE players on this thread.

Thing is, to win with the DE army, you HAVE to know these things. There are no other ways of winning. Other armies can get away with not knowing these things and still win, but with DE there's no such luxury. 'Do everything right or lose the game' is our motto. Minor errors will cost us a 160 point squad very easily, and even if we do all of these things right, there is still the problem that experienced opponents also know what they're doing, and can without too much trouble counter the effectiveness of our units.

To get back to the points costs, no I don't think they're underpriced in general. Sure some things are but other things are overpriced same as every other list. The units are excellent if you do things right, and extremely unforgiving, to cancel that out. Wyches can maybe go up a point or two, and DL warriors are super cheap, but these are the strengths of a DE army. You can't look at things point for point, you have to look at the army in general and how those units function.

toxic_wisdom
14-03-2008, 12:36
"...If they played the same guy different alternative army (most people of more than five years experience have at least two armies) they would get owned (with one of the major factors being they were not playing Dark Eldar)..."

Erm... I have just about the same win ratio with my other armies as I do with my Dark Eldar. Seriously, the player does make the difference.

Oh... before you try to compare BLs with DLs keep in mind the Eldar use platforms keeping theirs mobile. DE on the other hand must remain stationary to fire ( counter tactic - run an expendable vehicle in front of the lance models ).

Eldrad
14-03-2008, 13:05
I have to say that to beat the DE you have to know exactly what thier build is and what tactic theyre going for. If they have a WWP you absolutely have to kill it before it opens. If you dont you better not have anything within 24 inches.

intellectawe
14-03-2008, 14:41
I have to say that to beat the DE you have to know exactly what thier build is and what tactic theyre going for. If they have a WWP you absolutely have to kill it before it opens. If you dont you better not have anything within 24 inches.

Finally, one of the first smart counter tactics said in this thread... Bravo!

rcm2216
14-03-2008, 16:08
toxic-wisdom what about a lascannon in a devastator team for 35 points that has to stationary. Plus a guardian bright lance in a squad cost 35 points also. You cannot tell me there is no point difference. It seems like the point value was decided by the weapon not the mobility of the weapon. The weapon value in the Eldar codex is the same for every vehicle just about with the exceptions of twin linked weapons or the increase of BS (say five points for the wraithlord). Mobility does not effect the points in the Eldar list, just if it is twin linked or on a higher BS unit.


This can be said of the Marines also. Thier weapons cost based on the amount that can be taken in a squad in order to control numbers and balance. A missile launcher cost 10 points in a tactical squad, but 20 points in a devastator squad. Plus according to the lastest codex trends they are controlling the number of heavy weapons in each squad based on squad size. You cannot even take the max number of heavy weapons in a squad unless you take the max number of troops. Dark Eldar are in compliance with these current trends or rule settings. The dark lance would cost more and you would not be able to take as many if and when it gets the codex update. Until then the Dark Eldar will be able to take more heavy weapons for the point value than other current armies, including Orks.

Something else of note is the fact that ................

intellectawe
14-03-2008, 16:25
Lascannon in a Dev team? You meant the 48" range lascannon on a T4 Marine with a 3+ save?

And doesn't the Eldar weapon platforms allow the unit to move and fire their heavy weapons?

And about different costs... a Dark Lance costs 10 points normally, but in a Scourge Squad they are 25 points. So the same thing happens in the DE codex as well.

And no... Orks can take Loota squads. Have you ever been on the receiving end of a 45 Loota shots before? I have as DE, and it isn't pretty at all.

El Ravager
14-03-2008, 16:36
I have a quick question, how well does Dark Eldar hold up against Craftworld Eldar's mech lists featuring the Falcons of Doom? I'm not a big tournament guy - I'm much more local and mech Eldar is all the rage around here. I haven't seen DE face off against it and I question how well DE could dominate that powerful list.

rcm2216
14-03-2008, 16:52
Lascannon in a Dev team? You meant the 48" range lascannon on a T4 Marine with a 3+ save?

And doesn't the Eldar weapon platforms allow the unit to move and fire their heavy weapons?

And about different costs... a Dark Lance costs 10 points normally, but in a Scourge Squad they are 25 points. So the same thing happens in the DE codex as well.

And no... Orks can take Loota squads. Have you ever been on the receiving end of a 45 Loota shots before? I have as DE, and it isn't pretty at all.


And your point is that these things are broke and need to be fixed.
The point difference between the warrior's dark lance and scourge dark lance should be balanced. The looter boy cost 15 points for a model that only hits once a turn in my experience. I have faced the looter squad from hell with marines, and I only lost three guys. They intimidate, but their low BS make them paper tigers against 3+ save models (you being a DE player, sucks for you). Just do the webway portal wyches get you before you can get me thing since he want get a turn before you assault him).


The point difference between the guardians and dark warriors heavy weapon is to extreme regardless of mobility (35 points to 10 points). The lascannon does not have the advantage of lance rule plus it is usaully mounted on a vehicle that moves twelve before it shoots, i.e. 48 in range for the dark lance.


Marine carrying a 35 point lascannon that cannot move and shoot versus a dark eldar warrior carrying a dark lance for 10 points. A 20 point difference is justified by the extra 12 inches in range and one plus Strength without the lance rule. I don't think so, it is broke for the dark eldar warrior squad to get away with this for such cheap points. Maybe move them to a heavy support slot, then we could be saying something, JOKE.

I think the Mech list could do well if you keep the units in the transport until needed. They can keep up in speed and fighting over who has control of the initiative and speed of the battlefield. I think a dark eldar player would be little vexed to see someone able to control the speed of the battlefield just as much as he. THe dark lance advatage is not that big against skimmers, a 4+ to glance is a 4+ to glance on an armor 12 vehicle that has the SMF rule to include spirit stones and vectored engines. I would advise the Eldar player to take tanks for all of his heavy support slots, plus 2-3 wave serpents with scatter lasers and shuriken cannon upgrade. This would be a lawn mowing waiting to happen against any horde based 4+ or higher modeled army. (Don't forget the heavy flamer on the vyper) HAHAHAHA

moose
14-03-2008, 17:00
Marine carrying a 35 point lascannon that cannot move and shoot versus a dark eldar warrior carrying a dark lance for 10 points. A 20 point difference is justified by the extra 12 inches in range and one plus Strength without the lance rule. I don't think so, it is broke for the dark eldar warrior squad to get away with this for such cheap points. Maybe move them to a heavy support slot, then we could be saying something, JOKE.

An extra 12" and +1 str sounds good to me. Plus I don't think you're taking into account how easy it is to kill the person/unit/vehicle holding the gun.

Max_Killfactor
14-03-2008, 17:06
Since DE are so rare, few people are even prepared to fight a battle against them.


I just wanted to quote this so more people notice it again.

If there were as many Dark Eldar players as there were Space Marine players, you would quickly find counter tactics. Since DE are so rare, people don't prepare for them and aren't sure what to expect.

My gaming group is primarily focused on Fantasy and no one else was too into 40k. I had about 1000 points of Dark Eldar (I play Dark Elves in fantasy) and finally talked some friends into playing 40k also. I was the only one who had done any tactical reading online.

For about a month I destroyed my friends. I ran the standard raider rush. My record was probably something like 8-1 (lost one to Eldar I think). Then they read up on my army and adjusted. Things got much more even and it was my turn to adapt. We increased to 1500 points and I started running a WWP army with a wych focus. I started winning again and my friends adjusted and learned how to deal with WWPs. Things are pretty even again.

If you want to learn to beat Dark Eldar, my advice is: play as them or play against them... a lot. Those are the only ways to become familiar with the army. I bet people that respond to your questions with "it is hopeless, just tuck your tail and run, and I could not tell you because I have never seen them lose" have never played as them or played against them consistantly.

rcm2216
14-03-2008, 17:16
That is a truth. But so is my point. Hence balance has to added to the eqaution. I am not saying most Dark Eldar guys are not making valid points in their debate. I am saying that they should be honest with the points others make concerning the Dark Eldar. I would agree that the dark lance point difference in the warrior squad and scourge is off. What about the ravanger point cost. Try equipping a predator with all lascannon in the new marine dex. I can only wait in horror for the new marine dex coming this year. The predator will be even worth more points to equip with all heavy weapons. There is now way I repeat again, that someone can convince me that a codex as old as the Dark Eldar codex is not off in point values in accordance with the current Edition. Even the point values within the codex itself is out of compliance given the new editions that have past it by.


The Dark Eldar codex needs an update, no one sensible can argue against that point. And we all know things will be changed to include point values and wargear options. And like the rest of the recent codices, the things they tampered with the most where the things we abused the most (man I miss my star cannons). They will find a way to make you buy scourges and other units most don't take.


I just wanted to quote this so more people notice it again.

If there were as many Dark Eldar players as there were Space Marine players, you would quickly find counter tactics. Since DE are so rare, people don't prepare for them and aren't sure what to expect.

My gaming group is primarily focused on Fantasy and no one else was too into 40k. I had about 1000 points of Dark Eldar (I play Dark Elves in fantasy) and finally talked some friends into playing 40k also. I was the only one who had done any tactical reading online.

For about a month I destroyed my friends. I ran the standard raider rush. My record was probably something like 8-1 (lost one to Eldar I think). Then they read up on my army and adjusted. Things got much more even and it was my turn to adapt. We increased to 1500 points and I started running a WWP army with a wych focus. I started winning again and my friends adjusted and learned how to deal with WWPs. Things are pretty even again.

If you want to learn to beat Dark Eldar, my advice is: play as them or play against them... a lot. Those are the only ways to become familiar with the army. I bet people that respond to your questions with "it is hopeless, just tuck your tail and run, and I could not tell you because I have never seen them lose" have never played as them or played against them consistantly.

I agree, blasted GW want put them on the shelf in their stores. Most new comers and novice don't know about Dark Eldar in detail as a legit army until someone starts deploying them (my bad- starting deploying just the units with the webway portals).

This is GW fault for not educating the customer base by not at least selling the codex in the mass market. It is like a secret force that comes out of no where. I know, it happened to me five years ago. When I was trying to get into the hobby, most said marines or necrons for newbies, and Eldar and Guard for experts. No one in a GW shop ever mention the Dark Eldar. I did not find out about them until much later. Even then the details were sketchy given the low number of players (I did not know one until two years into the hobby).

GW should at least put the codex on the shelf. The ones the little kids refuse to buy, but refer to during games (man I hate that too).

Victomorga
14-03-2008, 17:32
I've never seen DE played in person, but I've always gotten the distinct impression from forums, battle reports, etc. that they are fast and vicious, but extremely fragile. No army or list is invincible.

I have a prediction though:
when this codex finally gets re-vamped, it will be more balanced, more accessible to new players, and LOATHED by veteran DE players who will be crying "nerf", and "flavorless", and "emo-eldar", etc. etc.


Of all the codecies, I think this one will be the most trouble once it has been revised (although, seeing as how it causes the most debate pre-revision, I guess I'm not exactly rocking the world by calling that one out).

Thoth62
14-03-2008, 17:44
Having had interest in playing DE at one point, I figured I would weigh in here.

I choose in the end not to do a DE army because, at the time, I didn't have the funds. So I'd like to say that I know a thing or two about DE. It just so happens that I played against a DE army at the veterans night last night, with my Space Marines.

I opened a can of whoop-**** on my opponent. He didn't take the WWP, but he did have wyches in a raider, and he did have incubi with an archon in a raider, as well as the typical squads of warriors with 2 DL's each. He was also a relatively experienced player.

All I'm saying is that it's entirely possible that your anecdotal evidence is only from online here or in your local area, and is in no way proof that DE win 90% of their games as you claim they do. I think that the DE codex is a relatively well balanced rulebook, and it definitely takes a skilled user to be able to be successfull.

rcm2216
14-03-2008, 17:48
All I'm saying is that it's entirely possible that your anecdotal evidence is only from online here or in your local area, and is in no way proof that DE win 90% of their games as you claim they do. I think that the DE codex is a relatively well balanced rulebook, and it definitely takes a skilled user to be able to be successfull.

How can a codex as old as Moses be still called balanced. Even experienced Dark Eldar players say the codex is not balanced within itself. It needs to be revamped, who can argue against that logic and reasoning. It at least needs a new cover at the least.

Souleater
14-03-2008, 18:17
A codex could still be old and balanced. Changes in other the codexes and the game system itself can theoretically strengthen one aspect while weakening another.

This can lead to the codex - overall - still being balanced but in different ways than when it previously hit the ground.

And while it might sound counter intuitive to say that the codex is balanced over all but not internally it is perfectly logical.

Think of a total of 0 as perfect balance. If the codex contains a couple of weaknesses that add up to -3 but strengths that add up to +3 then the codexes overall 'weight' is zero.

Unfortunately what happens is that people take as much of the things that count towards that +3 as possible and leave the -3 things behind.

I think that kind of min/maxing is possible with the current DE dex. I got a stinking headache right now so won't go into details but if you really need examples, let me know.

rcm2216
14-03-2008, 18:30
They are not producing current codex with the Dark Eldar codex in mind or using it as a point of reference. It has been left behind. It is not a part of the equation being so far behind in editions. I am sure it is glanced at with the following statement applicable: we will fix that when we get to it and duh maybe they want care.


I am astonished by a recent revelation. I discovered something. I witnessed a certain amount theory and non-scienticfic data used to establish points and then the reverse later. I think I will study this issue. It seems that people argue on the side of theory at certain times, then reverse themselves and argue on the side of application and experience at other times. I need to find out why I do this myself. Anyway, let me end that rant (self thinking).

Thoth62
14-03-2008, 18:32
I wasn't talking about internal balance though. I was talking about a balance with the army as a whole as it compares to opposing armies. Sure you can take power builds, but seriously... how is that any different from any other codex?

Brockafally
14-03-2008, 18:37
Marine carrying a 35 point lascannon that cannot move and shoot versus a dark eldar warrior carrying a dark lance for 10 points. A 20 point difference is justified by the extra 12 inches in range and one plus Strength without the lance rule. I don't think so, it is broke for the dark eldar warrior squad to get away with this for such cheap points. Maybe move them to a heavy support slot, then we could be saying something, JOKE.

Ok first off your comparing a Devastator squad, which is in heavy support to a Warrior squad which is in Troops. Troops heavy weapons are going to be cheaper.

If you look at a marine Troop squad their Lascannon costs what 20 points? Ok so for 10 points more you 12"+ on range and 1+strength to the gun.

The points seem pretty accurate to me.

If you wanna compare Devastator to Scourge (our version of your heavy support), then it's still a 10 point difference. And again we suffer for that 10 points in fragility.

You can't compare Apples to Oranges and claim it's a joke that we get ours for so cheap.

The real issue that could be addressed is that we get more dark lances without having a penalty for minimized troop units. That could be addressed in the codex revamp. Maybe requiring a minimum 15 models for an additional one or upping the second ones point cost to compensate for having two lances in a troop unit. That would make sense.


What about the ravanger point cost. Try equipping a predator with all lascannon in the new marine dex. I can only wait in horror for the new marine dex coming this year. The predator will be even worth more points to equip with all heavy weapons. There is now way I repeat again, that someone can convince me that a codex as old as the Dark Eldar codex is not off in point values in accordance with the current Edition. Even the point values within the codex itself is out of compliance given the new editions that have past it by.

You seriously think the Ravager is that deadly? The most devastating troop killing unit in the DE army is the Ravager. Then all of a sudden you space your models 2" apart and look at that, I hit maybe 3-4 models a turn with my version of a plasma cannon (if I'm lucky and hit all 3 times).

Ok now what do I sacrifice to kill 3 of your models (assuming your not in cover):

I move less than 6" (ok so I can be penned)
I am in the open and you more than likely are still there with your weapons aimed at me.

The results:

Your firing at a rhino essentially and it's open topped to make matters worse. So to kill 3 of your guys (because you spaced them all out) I lose 120points.

So yeah, the only time the Ravager is really "overcosted" is when you clump your models together and I smoked 8 of them in one go and that's your own fault. Adapt to the DE and you can overcome them and realize they aren't overcosted and that Ravagers with 3 disintegrators are glass hammers.

As for your Predator, it has AV 12 (with Dark Lances) and a 48" range to it. Sure I have mobility, but when you put your predator out of range of my Dark Lance Troop squads I have to go after it with Raiders. That's one dark lance hoping to kill or stun your predator (not an easy feat) and in return your lascannons annihilate my raider with ease. For every hit it's an auto-glance (9+1=10 remember) and a 50% chance my raider blows up.

You keep saying that all the points values for DE are undercosted and the units are way too good. I would agree with you that some of the units are a little undercosted and that some need to be tweaked in relation to the new ruleset. But nowhere near as much as you seem to think they need to be changed.

That being said, everytime someone mentioned something that scares DE players (lootas for example) you laugh and say sucks to be you. The DE units are costed the way they are because we are EXTREMELY fragile and unforgiving.

Every army has their pros and cons. We get some cheaper costing units in exchange for having to play at our A game all the time and have the dice go our way. Or else we flop fast.


Hello Brock! I am not familair with you ( due to your rarity around these forums ) but after reading what you just posted, it is VERY refreshing to have another DE player who knows the ins and outs of the army.

Hey Intellectawe!

Yeah I swing by every now and then and post. Avid reader of the forums though. I played DE for 3 years and then 4th Edition caused me to park them for a while. Just recently brought them back out so I know all the strengths and weaknesses about DE. hehe.. that and I stay up on the tactics that people use as DE are my first army. Always will be. :)

rcm2216
14-03-2008, 18:53
What fragility justifies a 10 point spread, and doesn't the lance rule nulify the lascannon 1+ Strength (range not included) to make the points at least closer than 10. A lascannon in a tactical squad cost twenty points at 48 inch range for S9 AP2 in comparison to a dark lance 10 point cost for S8 AP2lance ruled weapon. Lets see you get two shots at a landraider at BS4 and I get one at BS4. The marine players need a five to do anything and the Dark eldar needs a four. There is usually upwards of five lascannons on the board in any army at most times (off the top of my head) and about ten dark lances on the board at any given time (I constantly hear Dark Eldar players say please do not field army against us because I got so many dark lances, read it for yourself or examine your own list)


I fear the dark lance more than a lascannon because the lance rule and the amount fielded. And you are telling me that I can take two of them for the price of one lascannon. I would want to side with you if I was Dark Eldar player. You know deep down in your heart maybe a 5 point increase would be okay for you to live with to shut us up about the point value unfairity (JESSIE jackson word rule)


You keep saying that all the points values for DE are undercosted and the units are way too good. I would agree with you that some of the units are a little undercosted and that some need to be tweaked in relation to the new ruleset. But nowhere near as much as you seem to think they need to be changed.

That being said, everytime someone mentioned something that scares DE players (lootas for example) you laugh and say sucks to be you. The DE units are costed the way they are because we are EXTREMELY fragile and unforgiving.

Every army has their pros and cons. We get some cheaper costing units in exchange for having to play at our A game all the time and have the dice go our way. Or else we flop fast.

Valid points guy, I am only being extreme for humor. I know that some of the things you say are true. I just want others to be truthful also. Like what you just said, "Some of the Dark Eldar units are undercost." AHHHHHHH, You just violated the Dark Eldar code of silence and you will be exiled back to the webway and inslaved by your partners to the gladiator pits.

Waaagh Grignak
14-03-2008, 19:15
Ive got a load of dark eldar from '98 when they first come out but never did much with them as im an ork player at heart!

Ive only seen them used a few times and its always a great game for the observers, i take my hat off to good DE players as you make 40K an art form:D

We have a DE player in our group and although ive yet to play him, it is on my list of things for the year. Ive spent most of the last year crushing necrons, tau and beakies so i think they will provide a challange for me

Keep playing guys!

Bloodknight
14-03-2008, 19:43
Why do you fear the lance more than a lascannon? Mathematically an S9 gun is better up to AV13 than an S8 lance gun and slightly worse at AV14.
There are some differences between 5 Marines with lascannon against 10 DE warriors with two lances (about the same cost, same slot): lascannon outranges DL, bolters are more deadly than splinter rifles, the Marines are more survivable, need less space on the board and are less susceptible to psychology. DE warriors die like Guardsmen and flee more often than Guardsmen (and cannot rally if 6 of them die unlike Marines and even Guard if Iron Discipline is taken, which is sort of a given).
They'd better be good for their points on the offensive (ie have one more AT shot at 36", because the antitroop gun - splinter cannon - is quite "meh" against anything that's not a gaunt or guardsman).

intellectawe
14-03-2008, 19:50
And your point is that these things are broke and need to be fixed.

No. I'll tell you my point. Don't assume one for me. Do those Hot Dogs in your ears hurt?

Thoth62
14-03-2008, 19:52
I fear the dark lance more than a lascannon because the lance rule and the amount fielded. And you are telling me that I can take two of them for the price of one lascannon. I would want to side with you if I was Dark Eldar player. You know deep down in your heart maybe a 5 point increase would be okay for you to live with to shut us up about the point value unfairity (JESSIE jackson word rule)

I fear the lascannon more. Why? Because it has been over a year since I've fielded anything with an armour value of 14. At AV 13, both need 4's to glance, and at anything less, the lascannon is better. Not everyone takes lots of AV 14 vehicles. In fact, the only one available to me in both of the armies I regularily use, is the land raider. And I think it's vastly overcosted for a vehicle that doesn't know whether it's role is AT or Troop Transport.

Meriwether
14-03-2008, 19:56
At my local game store, on it's website forums ( you can find it on the link in my previous post ) I offered for ANYONE during this Saturday's campaign game to challenge me ( due to campaign rules, I get challenged ) and then switch armies.

I really, really, REALLY want to switch armies with rmc2216 now... (Being the arrogant DE-type who's been playing this game for as long as it has existed, I'm cocky like that.) Ever get up to Western New York, rmc? If so, fancy a game? My DE versus, well, whatever other army you want?


Now I will agree there is one particular point issue with the DE Codex that makes absolutely no sense: the Terrorfex versus the Horrorfex...

Clearly the Horrorfex is a better weapon ( range - mobility - etc ) yet it costs one third the price of the Terrorfex.

Yes, but how much harder is it to kill the thing with the terrorfex than the thing with the horrorfex? Also, keep in mind that you cannot fire the horrorfex and a DL/Disintegrator in the same turn, so you're 'losing' points there, too. The added fragility of the horrorfex combined with the loss of the DL/disintegrator shots justify a lower point value than it on its surface deserves.


They want to take all the credit for having superior skills than everyone else. I am sure they have beaten people consistently that have more experience than they.

DE require skill to play well because they are so fragile -- a weakness that you seem all too willing to ignore in your analysis. Were DE just as they are but T4, or with 3+ armor, yeah, they'd be too good... Gee, it's almost as if the fragility was built in as a deliberate weakness...

Instead, you (in so many words) call us arrogant, put words in our mouths, and call us liars in the same paragraph. Nice.


I just wanted to know if my ascertians and estimates was true concerning the point value and how successful the army seems to be due to them needing a new codex.

Oh, yes, they're obviously true if you ignore all of the points people have made to counter them. Write on, man, write on. :rolleyes:


I am saying that they should be honest with the points others make concerning the Dark Eldar.


You know deep down in your heart maybe a 5 point increase would be okay for you to live with to shut us up about the point value unfairity (JESSIE jackson word rule)

Are you that in-tune with the truths of the universe that you can determine the hearts of other men, or are you just so arrogant that you assume all of your opinions are self-evident truths, and thus those who disagree with you must therefore be dishonest?

Congratulations -- I'm actually amazed. I think this might be the rudest, most arrogant thing I've ever seen on the internet -- and how amazing is that?!?? What you are actually saying here is that people who disagree with you are liars who don't want to admit they're lying. What a steaming pile of horse crap. (Honestly.)

For the record: I wouldn't give you a nickel to shut you up, because you've made it abundantly clear just how valuable your opinions are. Keep talkin', man, keep talkin'.

Meri

Thoth62
14-03-2008, 19:59
Meri... You're my hero.

intellectawe
14-03-2008, 20:02
Thats why I quoted him... He is also my hero as well.

rcm2216
14-03-2008, 20:52
I HAVE BEEN PINNED and lost my 2+ coversave. I am being assaulted by hotdogs, excuse while I use my Auspex to counter-assault. My, what big teeth you have. Its just a game man get real. I am just exercising debate. Anyway, enough with friendly chatter.

I know I rabbel sometime, but I have not called anyone a liar (if I have, I am sorry). Your opinion is your opinion, personally. We should be adult when others disagree and not get personal. Getting upset at a post and making personal attacks is the very sign more than arrogance, but some deeper issues (I am the one to talk given my people skills lacking). Do I not suppose to debate from my own mind, experiences, and intiutions. (Warning I said it first) I have limited experience with Dark Eldar. I have only played them twice in five years. I have only seen them played maybe five times total. I hear of two local legends I have met (playing and beating one in a 1,000 point game using Eldar minus his webway portal, he must have forgotten it at home, duh). That means I beat the only Dark Eldar player I have ever battle against (which proves nothing). However, I have seen with my own eyes in RTT's and according to the posted battle reports, own their opponents army.


I can concieve some points some people make if they can overcome my skeptism and existing belief systems that are protected by my biased thoughts (which is human, but most do not want to admit) with empirical data and experiences which refute and expose either my ignorance or stubbornish (no one is suppose to be gullible and not use reason and analysis when trying to make a decision to believe or do something). Also, I do take someones word base on face value when I know that they have an interest involved to protect and they cannot be objective. Most people are posting in the defense of the Dark Eldar Army, I respect that. However, it does say that you are not objective in your posture and approach towards investigation to either be open for exposing, self-critical of or scrutinized your own. Like a mother who defends her ax murdering son all the way to the electric chair and every knows OJ did it (I cannot defend him as blackman, OJ did it.)


I play Eldar. Most people call my list cheesy. So what, I play RTT's for fun and to win (winning feels good). Most people lie or fake modesty if they say any different (I do know some who do not have fun unless they are winning). I play a list of mostly skimmers and harlies (not the 3 falcon/harlie list, just one falcon/ 2 harlie list). I take the falcon because I know it is a pain to shoot down and stay down. I take the two squads of harlies to keep marines honest (that simple). I believe that the powergamer would take the cookie cutter three falcon list to insure he wins in a higher percentage of games. I try to do this with tactics. Anyway, my point is this after this diatribe of words, people have problems with every army codex. It is up to us as players to say yea or nay, and keep playing.

I could really care less if someone took the cookie cutter never lose Dark Eldar list from hell with the endorse of the Grand Puba of Corromagh (excuse the spelling of your homeworld, but I do not own the codex, though I would like to), I would feel better if I beat that person. I hope we personally meet on the table one day especially after your codex has been revamped.

Least we posters forget debates of the past. I was there as a part of the 3 shot plasma cannon thread wars. I dare anyone to do a search engine look up to see the numerous debates over the starcannon as to how unfair it was, how cheap it was, and how abused it was. Well it was, ACCORDING TO GW, they nerfed it in the eyes and to the horror of all Eldar players. The GW team heeded the cries and moans of the space marine fanatics and made a change they deemed necessary to balance the game regardless of our opinion (at least I do recall them checking with anyone I knew whether it would be a good or bad thing to change). It went from a Heavy 3 medium cost item to a Heavy 2 high dollar commodity.

Now the sad part. I was wrong. I should have said so during the starcannon wars. No I chose to remain silent and kept my conscience to myself. I killed my conscience as I said to myself they have to be wrong as I built my twelve starcannon list filled it with war walkers, vypers, and guardian squads (wraith lord had bright lance) that laid down marine squads and hordes alike per turn (man that farseer came in handy). I knew then that I was using a good thing that was to good to past up and would be foolish not to take advantage of. It was something GW provided themselves for me to utilize to my advantage without restraint because they had not set any limits. I was wrong as everyone cried cheese, cheese, and more cheese. No one wanted to play against Eldar mostly. Just showing up and presenting your list at a RTT got you a few mean looks (I know you Dark Player know what I mean).

Now the truth, I only use six starcannon then and now I use one in my list. Why because the scatter laser has become the new starcannon (just kidding). Actually the falcon/harlie unit has become the no brainer item and yes again I take one indulgence of these and I still get the cry of cheese.

Bottom line, GW will make the changes they see fit to balance the game, and like my starcannon example. Peoples contast complaints regarding a item and rule usually provide a hint as to what GW will investigate for change.

Would the callidus assassins attacks get past the Archon shadow shield.

Meriwether
14-03-2008, 22:06
...just when I thought this couldn't get any funnier, you say that:

A. You have **virtually no** experience fighting dark eldar,
B. have **no** experience playing dark eldar,
and
C. don't even **own the rules**.

You use this dearth of experience to say that **we** need to be honest (thus saying that we are not being -- i.e. calling us liars) and that **we** should concede a points hike to get you to shut up about how unfair this list (that you've never played, barely played against or even seen played, and do not own the rules for) is...

...and then you come back with the charge that **I'm** making personal attacks by pointing out that you're assuming that everyone who disagrees with you is dishonest... (Your 'if I said so' apology on that is crap, by the way -- because I just quoted you saying so. Either apologize or don't, but you owe it to yourself to avoid the flaccid pseudo-acknowledgement of your foundationless accusations.)

Frankly, you do such a good job of undermining your own credibility that I hope you disagree with me more often on these forums.

Meri

P.S. You actually made me cry I'm laughing so hard.

P.P.S. Does the callidus assassin's attacks ignore invulnurable saves?

Thoth62
14-03-2008, 22:06
I don't mean offense, as I'm just trying to be straightforward here, but do you have a problem with the edit button? I've seen a large number of double, and now a triple post by you. If no one has replied, it is very easy just to edit your previous post to add what more you wanted to say.

I just thought I'd point that out.

Meriwether
14-03-2008, 22:12
It might be worth pointing out that double-posting is against forum rules, too...

Meri

t-tauri
14-03-2008, 22:24
It might be worth pointing out that double-posting is against forum rules, too...
Indeed. Please stop it. Use the edit button it makes the forum easier to read.

rcm2216
14-03-2008, 22:31
Thanks, I just thought about that today regarding the re-edit of an original post. Will do.

Meriwether I see you are prone to one of those things also. ????????

Well at least I accomplish laughter (I try not to be melancholy in real life everyday) as I caught the rock landing on me. We humans forget we have those in common and of equal amount in comparison to others. I still say you are not a liar and you have not lied (guile is another issue, just kidding). Anyway I repeat myself, you are not a liar and it would be wrong to attack your character in that manner. You guys must think I am somewhere perched on high hating with a sniper rifle in my arms. By no means, I as a past Drill Sergeant believe in a few things that get me through the day. One covers what we are doing. Always look down the path of the most RESISTANCE is what they taught me at Fort Jackson. This has help me as a cop and child mentor at church. Hence I seek to stay humble as best as possible (given that I got one of those things we humans called character flaws), continiously debate (in the effort to stay out of my comfort zone), and play 40K to relieve stress. I do not believe I can grow without debate and inviting others into my life to disturb and unsettle me to the point that I have to deal with those things they see I either ignore or conceal from myself, or they are simply unknown to me.

P.S. I was wondering if the shadowfield had any special rule that modified the callidus attacks. You know yourself you have played someone who not so against my army, as you told them to show you why not.

Meriwether
14-03-2008, 22:35
The shadowfield is simply a 2+ invulnurable save that disappears if it fails even once. And so that is the answer to your question. If the Callidus Assassin's attacks ignore invulnurable saves, then they will ignore the shadowfield. If not, then not.

Meri

devolutionary
14-03-2008, 22:59
Wow, what utterly tragic argumentative skills I am seeing.

First off, you can't compare points and stats across armies as some so ineptly do when they are trying to prove that one army is better than another. Each unit, each weapon, and each element of a codex is balanced internally, and the codex as a whole is then aligned to the game. Look at Chaos Marines with their 35pt rhinos but super high X-Armour cost compared to Space Marines. What about the Ork vs the Guardsman, both at 6pts? Guardsmen pay 10pts for a Heavy Bolter in a squad, Marines pay 5pts.

You have NEVER been able to point out this weapon here, that unit there, and then make a fair and accurate assessment of an army because those units and weapons are a part of the whole and not independent elements free for scrutiny. This is like me pointing out that this sports team has this guy who is better than this other team's guy and therefore the first team is better. It's a crock of ****.

Secondly, experience != skill. I have been playing for over 12 years in various games, armies, and styles, and I'm decidedly middle road. The argument that "well I bet they beat more experienced players!" does not wash in the slightest, because I could have been playing for 30 years and still be beaten by a 16 year old who has more skill. They are not analogous because this is not D&D.

Thirdly, one of the most overwhelming factor in favour of Dark Eldar is that they are rare, unknown, and come from a different era. I heard many comments when they first arrived that they were spectacularly overpriced, and they still have the worst model range in the game. They were fragile then, but 4th ed has been kind to them with the skimmer rules and loss of things like the Rhino rush to challenge their speed. Call it karma, call it fate, call it righteous repayments to an army that suffers from no support, fragmentary imagery, and an entire edition of mediocrity.

Finally, I would like to point out that there is a brand new codex of very cheap models with extreme combat abilities and a whole range of phenomenally cheap heavy weapons that ride around in ridiculously fast vehicles that don't kill them when they get blown up. If you think DE are unbeatable, start playing Orks. DE may beat Eldar, but I have a sneaking suspicion that once folks get to grips with it, Orks will annihilate DE quite handily.

wolfbyte2586
14-03-2008, 23:35
I have played my Dark Eldar for a year now, and ive been taking the "cookie cutter" supposedly "unbeatable" Raider Rush and WWP lists for a while now, and you know what? I STILL get my rear handed to me on a regular basis. I haven't figured out why, but i have the fairly accurate suspicion its because i stink. Plain and Simple. I dont have that necessary knowledge of the game and its mechanics and tactics to actually pull off the army. My first three turns are things getting shot to pieces, then whatever Wyches that make it to CC eating things alive, then getting shot up and dying. I have NEVER massacred an opponent yet despite playing both experienced and newb players alike.

So frankly, the argument that the codex as a whole is undercosted and needs a price increase is ridiculous to me. As mentioned, some things need points DECREASES, notably Scourges, though i imagine that once they become mobile firing platforms (as rumored will happen in 5th edition to jump infantry), they will be significantly more useable, and probably much closer to cost-effective.

The_Outsider
15-03-2008, 00:20
Orks will annihilate DE quite handily.

Thats so true its unfunny.

DE simply lack any decent crowd control weaposn to thin numbers - the splinter cannon just does not cut it.

rcm2216
15-03-2008, 03:46
I like debate, but I hate confusion. So Meriwether forgive me for offending you if anything I said implied that you are a liar.

Anyway, I will leave this debate and start some more chaos in another thread (Joke). We did not get anywhere collectively, but rest assured, GW will. That includes our money as that will eventually dictate the changes they make ultimately. You think they are going to allow you to keep the same models you have without making you have buy new models to be competitve. I know most Dark Eldar Players have a mountain of models (like a the 4,250 points of marines I have). They will do something like create new models, new force organization selections, and alter the existing army list to make people dig into their wallet.

Now I request that this thread be close humbly administrator.

toxic_wisdom
15-03-2008, 04:18
"...Marine carrying a 35 point lascannon that cannot move and shoot versus a dark eldar warrior carrying a dark lance for 10 points. A 20 point difference is justified by the extra 12 inches in range and one plus Strength without the lance rule. I don't think so, it is broke for the dark eldar warrior squad to get away with this for such cheap points. Maybe move them to a heavy support slot, then we could be saying something, JOKE..."

You seem to ignore the fact that the other eight Warriors in a Lance team are carrying Splinter Rifles, compared to the other eight Space Marines that are carrying Bolters - and lets not even take into account Armor Saves and Leadership values.

As for two Heavy Weapons in the squad - why does this seem so ungodly broken ? You don't see me whine about Las / Plas squads... and btw, Warrior squads need a minimum of 10 models in a unit.

toxic_wisdom
15-03-2008, 04:33
"...Also, keep in mind that you cannot fire the horrorfex and a DL/Disintegrator in the same turn, so you're 'losing' points there, too..."

Check the DE FAQ: the Horrorfex has been classed a Defensive weapon now.

IncubiLord
15-03-2008, 07:50
I have a prediction though:
when this codex finally gets re-vamped, it will be more balanced, more accessible to new players, and LOATHED by veteran DE players who will be crying "nerf", and "flavorless", and "emo-eldar", etc. etc.
I have a counter-prediction.

The DE will actually get better.
Wyches and Harlequins are a tough choice for which makes the better unit, and Wyches are the biggest, best(est) squad in the DE army.

Orks can now pretty much match DE in initial speed, and their units are quite cheap. Wartrukks are quite similar to Raiders and very cheap as well.

The dreaded DE Lord with Shadowfield? Yeah, 0-1 limitations are going bye-bye in recent codices, so maybe we get two of them...

Scourges, Grotesques, Mandrakes, Reavers, and Hellions? You can bet that these will actually be fixed to be appealing choices.

We lose the armory? There's only about 4 things in the armory that most DE players would consider.

It'll really be harsh.

Would the callidus assassins attacks get past the Archon shadow shield.
Yep. GK special toys do too.

4th ed has been kind to them with the skimmer rules and loss of things like the Rhino rush to challenge their speed.
Entanglement sort of compensates for that. ;)

Finally, I would like to point out that there is a brand new codex of very cheap models with extreme combat abilities and a whole range of phenomenally cheap heavy weapons that ride around in ridiculously fast vehicles that don't kill them when they get blown up.
My thoughts exactly.

Now I request that this thread be close humbly administrator.
You know you can lock your own threads, right?


If you're wandering through Iowa, I'll add another offer to let you play the DE LIST OF DOOM (all-caps for sheer awesomeness) while I play a different army. You can even pick the codex, but I don't own them all, so we may end up proxying...

rcm2216
15-03-2008, 09:05
Yes I know I could close it, just speaking out loud as a figurative manner, I would not want to be selfish and stop others from conversing in debate, it was my way of personally saying I am finish with the topic.

Iowa,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, uh, okay.

Wintermute
15-03-2008, 10:07
Yes I know I could close it, just speaking out loud as a figurative manner, I would not want to be selfish and stop others from conversing in debate, it was my way of personally saying I am finish with the topic.
.

Then why ask for it to be closed?

BTW that is a rhetorical question ;)

Thread Closed

Wintermute
The WarSeer Inquisition