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TheTrueSloth
13-03-2008, 16:40
Hey guys

Haven't yet had a chance to see any of the PDF's so I can't check this for meself. From what I have read on the forums, there's going to be some interesting changes.

Quick question - I was planning a Sisters Rhino style army with multiple squads of seraphim as a support role. But with only troops capturing objectives (so I hear), tanks being more durable, infantry being able to run..what valid field role do Seraphim have that troops cannot do? When most units can come close (or equal) to the movement of seraphim (granted, loss of shooting and random bonus movement still make Seraphim a good choice in that respect) - but if only troops can capture objectives and get bonus moves anyway - and if tanks are more durable - would it not just be better to get more regular battle sisters over some of the fancy elites?

Toodles

Mandragola
13-03-2008, 17:58
In general everyone is moving towards more troops and fewer elites, fast attack and heavy support. This will apply to SoBs as much as anyone.

I think that sisters will be one of the better anti-horde armies around. Actually they can be close to a horde army themselves if they want. They may well be a strong army in 5th. I particularly like the idea of SoBs with a platoon or two of inducted guard in support.

Carlos
13-03-2008, 18:23
As with 4th edition and again in 5th edition Seraphim will be a useless squad not worth the points (Woah! No close combat ability and twin-linked bolt pistols. Scary). Your points are better spent on an exorcist/retributor squad with 4x heavy flamers/dominion squad with 4x melta guns in immolator.

Spring heeled Jack
13-03-2008, 18:26
Hey guys

Haven't yet had a chance to see any of the PDF's so I can't check this for meself. From what I have read on the forums, there's going to be some interesting changes.

Quick question - I was planning a Sisters Rhino style army with multiple squads of seraphim as a support role. But with only troops capturing objectives (so I hear), tanks being more durable, infantry being able to run..what valid field role do Seraphim have that troops cannot do? When most units can come close (or equal) to the movement of seraphim (granted, loss of shooting and random bonus movement still make Seraphim a good choice in that respect) - but if only troops can capture objectives and get bonus moves anyway - and if tanks are more durable - would it not just be better to get more regular battle sisters over some of the fancy elites?

Toodles


Right, good question. First off, to "Run" the uinit may not shoot or assault. Second as far as I have read the 5th ed rules, all infantry including jump may "Run". Troops being the only ones to capture objectives as far as i have read is not entirely true, Again, infantry including jump (from what i have read) meaning elites or heavy or even fast as long as they are not mechanized units like tanks or skimmers or bikes or dreadnoughts ect. ect. ect.

Last, not all games can be won by hiding then running for the goal. I have not ever seen a game won simply on racing to the objective. Any way i still think Seraphs will be great in 5th. But if you want to see something that will make you think twice about Repetia....think of this.

12" deployment, as per most games. 6" move plus holy rage at lets say 4" so a 10" move, sacrafice shooting (since they cant) for a "Run" at up to 6" so 16" in one turn, puts you bout 10" away form your enemy, so if they shoot you ..you might loose 25% and then have to roll your moral ..which if you fail you get 2d6" towards them, if you make it to CC you count as having charged. In CC you wont lose, IMO, I have not lost in CC with them yet.

Souchan
13-03-2008, 19:31
Concernign seraphim, I never take more than a single squad as they are very pricey.

Them lacking a strong cc ability has never bothered me as that's not what they are for. While I love the inferno pistol loadout, I usually go for flamers as with divine guidance any other squad can fill the same role(though I love the pistols cause they can do it without the FP) and are abit pricey, but I swear by the flamer loadout, 12"moving flamers are great for finding hidden pathfinders or anything else hiding away, also their DG can be pretty intimidating^^.

TheTrueSloth
13-03-2008, 23:40
lol, that's fair enough. Thanks for the info guys ;)

Hmm, nice point about the repentia. I'm assuming Arco-Flagellants would have the same bonus. Question is, would that make an initially awful-looking squad actually quite feasible (the repentia)?

I see a Sister CC army coming lol...

Toodles

warchild9
14-03-2008, 08:38
actually Seraphim are worth it just not in melee....Take units of 8 with twin flamers and give the VSS twin polt pistols and act of faith them for divine guidance and shoot everything to bits, don't fight in melee with MEQ and retributors can not take heavy flamers, I wish they could. From what I read in the forums they won't be able to take objectives, mine never do that is the job of the 4-6 squads of sisters with the melta and heavy flamer and their rhino. why run and get closer to the enemy when you can shoot like a marine

and for melee purpose right now repentias and arco fallagents cost why more points that their worth check out the tactica witchhunter in the 40k tatics section for great tips

Mandragola
14-03-2008, 11:07
Repentia may work, especially now they can ride in the inquisitor's land raider.

To be honest I still wouldn't rate them that highly. They have one attack each, t3 and a 4+ save. They only work in pretty specialised situations.

Souchan
14-03-2008, 12:16
Repentia may work, especially now they can ride in the inquisitor's land raider.

To be honest I still wouldn't rate them that highly. They have one attack each, t3 and a 4+ save. They only work in pretty specialised situations.

Alas Repentia have the "may never ride in a vehicle rule", similar to arco flagellants. Both units need to footslog it and will be loving the new run rules :D

zealot!
14-03-2008, 12:59
As with 4th edition and again in 5th edition Seraphim will be a useless squad not worth the points (Woah! No close combat ability and twin-linked bolt pistols. Scary).

dude good one! i almost died laughing (sittin here thinking about how my seraphim SHREDDED a unit of storm boyz before helping my callidus kill like 30 shoota boyz... in my first playtest)

SoB are one of the best short-range armies out there... now they don't have to wait more than 2 turns to unload, which is nice.

Mandragola
14-03-2008, 13:41
Alas Repentia have the "may never ride in a vehicle rule", similar to arco flagellants. Both units need to footslog it and will be loving the new run rules :D

Ahh missed that one.

Arco flagellants may become useful now that they can run. Repentia will still be useless though.

Seraphim will probably still be good as flamer carriers and tank hunters, but not in CC.

havik110
14-03-2008, 14:01
what do people think about a footsloggy horde sisters army in 5th. think of 6 units of 15 sisters with 2 meltas with a VSS with a storm bolter and a book. Thats 1440 pts. Throw in a canoness for 140 and 2 exorcists and you have 9 faith points and 97 3+ armor saves running at you and shooting on turn 2.

Mandragola
14-03-2008, 14:46
I think there will be effective lists that mix sisters and guard in some combination.

I was thinking about a guard army with a couple of sisters squads in rhinos added. The sisters could go forward, maybe supported by a demolisher or two, while the IG infantry put down a lot of lascannon fire from infantry platoons (and it will probably have to be lascannons now I think).

Alternatively make it a sisters army with a couple of IG platoons and maybe leman russ.

I quite like the idea of being able to deploy a large IG platoon in dawn of war - though I suppose they aren't all that useful in the dark :)

FigureFour
14-03-2008, 14:54
But with only troops capturing objectives (so I hear), tanks being more durable, infantry being able to run..what valid field role do Seraphim have that troops cannot do? When most units can come close (or equal) to the movement of seraphim (granted, loss of shooting and random bonus movement still make Seraphim a good choice in that respect) - but if only troops can capture objectives and get bonus moves anyway - and if tanks are more durable - would it not just be better to get more regular battle sisters over some of the fancy elites?

Seraphim will have more mobility and more firepower will moving then your other troops. This allows them to move to the part of the battle you need fire support in and provide that support quickly.

Their role is as supporting fire and fast response to threats.


In general everyone is moving towards more troops and fewer elites, fast attack and heavy support. This will apply to SoBs as much as anyone.

I think some people are being to quick to declare non-Troops useless now. They are there to support your troops and give them the firepower/staying power they need to take an objective and repel a counter assault.

Mandragola
14-03-2008, 15:17
I think some people are being to quick to declare non-Troops useless now. They are there to support your troops and give them the firepower/staying power they need to take an objective and repel a counter assault.

Agreed, but people will still be taking more troops in general than they do now. I think that people might end up taking fewer units overall as well, for a combination of factors. Since you have to take an HQ, I think more reliance will be placed on it and you may start to see retinues and things like that. That all leaves less room for elites, fast attack and heavy support.

Asharoth
14-03-2008, 15:40
I don't really think that the sister army will be affected that much by 5th edition. Using rhinos still allows you to screen (although you can screen with other squads now). Seraphim will still be useful though. Like stated above, the're not really for CC, and IMO the most useful thing about the mis the hit and run for tying up squads for a turn in CC and for leapfrog-tank hunting.

On a side note, I haven't seen the PDF's either, but could the troops holding strategic points rule be a misconception? I mean if they actually said "infantry", and not "troops" then anything classified as "infantry" from any part of the FOC could hold objectives.

Mandragola
14-03-2008, 15:47
It isn't a misconception. The pdf does say troops.

There are one or two misinterpretations though. A unit of troops scores unless:

- it is falling back at the end of the game
- it is a vehicle
- it has a special rule specifying it never counts as scoring (like some swarm type things do).

So you don't have to be basic infantry to score, just not a vehicle. Jump infantry, bikes and so on can be scoring units.

Also note that there is nothing about being below half strength. 1 living IG conscript is still a scoring unit.

reorox
14-03-2008, 16:53
As with 4th edition and again in 5th edition Seraphim will be a useless squad not worth the points (Woah! No close combat ability and twin-linked bolt pistols. Scary). Your points are better spent on an exorcist/retributor squad with 4x heavy flamers/dominion squad with 4x melta guns in immolator.

WOW what an ignorant comment. Seraphim with 2x flamers and combined with 6 twin linked bolt pistols used in conjuction with divine guidance = lots of dead anything. Seraphim then can tie you up in close combat until your turn where they use hit and run to move on to another squad . Seraphim or one of the best support/harass units in the game.

NallTWD
14-03-2008, 17:11
Not to mention seraphim will swoop in, hammer away at a unit, tie it up with a redundant squad like normal battle sisters then take off, only to swoop back in the next turn.

Hit and run ftw.

Reticent
14-03-2008, 17:33
Not to mention seraphim will swoop in, hammer away at a unit, tie it up with a redundant squad like normal battle sisters then take off, only to swoop back in the next turn.

Hit and run ftw.

Hit and run requires an initiative test to work in the pdf, so it is best not to bank the game on it working.

Addressing the rest of the discussion-- as has been said, Witch Hunters lists should do well because the sisters themselves are such good troop choices.

Many of the Witch Hunters support units (read: non-troops) do get better under the pdf rules, but my rough estimate is that you need non-troop units to be about 67% more useful to you point-for-point vs having taken more troops if you expect them to pay off as an investment-- at least when using the "normal" scenarios outlined in the pdf. Not that point efficiency is everything mind you; by all means take them if you think they're going to be fun.

Mandragola
15-03-2008, 00:08
my rough estimate is that you need non-troop units to be about 67% more useful to you point-for-point vs having taken more troops if you expect them to pay off as an investment

I don't think you can really work it out as a percentage like this.

An army needs to be able to do a certain set of things to win games. It needs X amount of anti-tank, X amount of anti-horde, X amount of objective takers and so on and so on.

You may need to take non-troops to fulfill one or other of these tasks. People who don't need to do that because their troops can do everything, or who get a surplus of one or other things from their troops, will have an advantage.

In the case of sisters you get cheap durable troops who are good at anti-horde and can stick around to take objectives. You probably want to look at getting some anti-tank stuff from outside of your troops selection though. My solution would actually be to take a few squads of inducted IG with lascannons, who are also troops, and maybe an exorcist or two.

I have a sketch 1500 point army list drawn up for witch hunters that looks like this:

Canoness with blessed wep, book and inferno pistol
Celestian bodyguard with melta gun and hvy flamer. Vet with evis and brazier of holy fire.
Immolator

10 sisters with melta gun and hvy flamer. Vet with book and brazier of holy fire
Rhino

10 sisters with melta gun and hvy flamer. Vet with book and brazier of holy fire
Rhino

10 sisters with melta gun and hvy flamer. Vet with book and brazier of holy fire
Rhino

IG command squad with lascannon

4x IG infantry squad with lascannon

Exorcist with dozer blade

All transports with extra armour, smoke and searchlight.

It seems I have a crazy number of heavy flamers around the place, with up to 9 templates a turn potentially making a mess of hordes even before the bolters and lasguns get going. The various melta weapons should help against enemy tanks (possibly without dismounting from the rhinos) and the lascannons should mean I can at least threaten the enemy at range.

I have 81 infantry and 8 scoring units, so it should be fairly difficult to get me off objectives. The books of St. Lucius should make my sisters stick around even in heavily lost CCs, which could swing games if someone is trying to assault me on turn 6.

I think it makes sense to have a pretty powerful HQ for dawn of war games. I'll be able to set up 60 infantry and 2 vehicles in dawn of war, and have a couple of advancing searchlights to help the IG spot something to fire at.

Most importantly it looks like a really fun army to use. I blitz towards the enemy, dismount, and set fire to everything I can see. Last one to die gets the drinks.

Marius Xerxes
15-03-2008, 01:33
Hit and run requires an initiative test to work in the pdf, so it is best not to bank the game on it working.


Its still not to bad, cause you can use the Act of Faith to increase your INT to 5, which depending on who your playing you might use anyway simply to go first in HtH.

Still no promise of success, but only failing on a 6 is still solid enough odds to rely on it IMO.

zealot!
15-03-2008, 04:44
well i dont bank on HaR with em anyways... if my seraphim are cooking and charging a unit, it should be dead or running. if not i did something wrong in the first place. WH are one of the best 'close-range' armies but you still need to focus your fire correctly. take units apart one or two at a time.

Souchan
15-03-2008, 12:29
Its still not to bad, cause you can use the Act of Faith to increase your INT to 5, which depending on who your playing you might use anyway simply to go first in HtH.

Still no promise of success, but only failing on a 6 is still solid enough odds to rely on it IMO.

Our Seraphim are initiative 6 with that faith, they, like our celestians, are I4 base.

TheTrueSloth
15-03-2008, 23:38
Well I got my first couple of games in with witch hunters today, and they kicked ass (Dark Eldar and Space Marines - huzzah!), so that was cool.

Hmm...I think bearing in mind the new rules that are coming, I'll drop my 2nd squad of Seraphim *sobs* and take a 4th rhino squad. They are awesome. So are seraphim, they do huge amounts of damage...but as a non-scoring unit that's worth a lot of points, if they get hurt it is not good. That being said, their superior mobility and guaranteed 12" movement, plus other abilities, is always nice.

But the thing I found in my 2nd game was that at one point, after wiping out a SM firebase, my opponent then wrecked the last rhino with a squad inside racing towards the central location, which then entangled the squad inside while termi's with Assault Cannons then wiped out the two squads already there (damned deep strike). If 5th edition is going to be as troop orientated as it sounds, then I'm gonna need that extra squad.

Does Fleet of Foot override the run rule in the PDF? Wouldn't make sense, but I was wondering about Genestealers...is it a move that replaces shooting (like Fleet - which renders Fleet units pretty useless) or is it extra movement on top? Just wondering 'cos one of my mates runs a 'stealer heavy list and he was thinking of scuttlers, wondering if that would mean the first turn charge potential would be far greater - and thus how to combat it.

Toodles

Rabid Bunny 666
15-03-2008, 23:49
Fleet now allows you to run and assault.

zealot!
15-03-2008, 23:52
/me falls over....

gahhhhh - lets go over this again! please!

Mandragola
16-03-2008, 00:16
Everyone can run D6". Fleet units don't get an extra D6" but they can assault after running. Non-fleet units can't assault after running.

So the bad thing about running is that you don't do anything else. No shooting or assaulting. Running near the enemy is fairly risky.

electricblooz
16-03-2008, 04:17
So the bad thing about running is that you don't do anything else. No shooting or assaulting. Running near the enemy is fairly risky.

Not if you're a 'stealer, or a gaunt, or practically every other nid except biovores, or an Ork, or a bezerker, or plague marine, or a SW, or DW, or RW, or a BT, or BA, or Harlie, or a Banshee, or a Scorpion, or a Wyche...

TheTrueSloth
16-03-2008, 10:34
Fleet now allows you to run and assault.

Aaah, that makes sense.

So if vehicles are becoming a bit more durable, would "drive by flaming" still be a viable tactic against more aggressive armies? Or should I just resort to the "rhino wall/cover" combo?

Toodles

Mandragola
16-03-2008, 10:39
if you're a 'stealer, or a gaunt, or practically every other nid except biovores, or Harlie, or a Banshee, or a Wyche...

Then you can already fleet. The run rule makes precisely no difference at all, apart from that the enemy can now run away.


if you're an Ork, or a bezerker, or plague marine, or a SW, or DW, or RW, or a BT, or BA, or a Scorpion

Then you can now run but you can do nothing else after running. People will shoot at you and you will not be able to reply. Yes, you can move forwards a bit faster, but people can also move away from you equally fast.


So if vehicles are becoming a bit more durable, would "drive by flaming" still be a viable tactic against more aggressive armies? Or should I just resort to the "rhino wall/cover" combo?

Drive by flaming may well be effective as the probability of your rhino getting killed is even less than it was in 3rd.

zealot!
16-03-2008, 15:51
drive-by flaming works, but i thinkt he rhino-wall will be used much more and will be more effective.

heretics bane
16-03-2008, 16:54
As with 4th edition and again in 5th edition Seraphim will be a useless squad not worth the points (Woah! No close combat ability and twin-linked bolt pistols. Scary)

QFS(quoted for stupidness)- ah yeah those twin linked inferno pistols with Str.8 AP1,acts of faith,hit-and-run ability are just so usless against terminators,tanks,crisis suits etc. oh and the seraphim superior with her power weapons and plasma pistol..................:eyebrows:

kiron
17-03-2008, 23:11
well this post was suppose to be about rhino rushes...so I used this list yesterday did very well in 5th ed. rules

What do you think?

HQ: 1
1 palantine w/ pistol-36 (always first person to die)

TROOPS: 6 (Note we play rhinos as 50 points for armor and smoke due to changes in CSM codex)
10 battle sisters w/ vet-rhino w/ armor and smoke, book-179
10 battle sisters w/ vet-rhino w/ armor and smoke, book-179
10 battle sisters w/ vet-rhino w/ armor and smoke, book-179
10 battle sisters w/ vet-rhino w/ armor and smoke-174
10 battle sisters w/ vet-rhino w/ armor and smoke-174
10 battle sisters w/ vet-rhino w/ armor and smoke-174

HEAVY: 3
3 exorcist-405

TOTAL: 1500 points

Marius Xerxes
17-03-2008, 23:12
Our Seraphim are initiative 6 with that faith, they, like our celestians, are I4 base.

I dont have the PDF on me at work, but i think you still fail on a roll of a 6 for the check.. maybe imw rong and someoen can clairify before i get home? :confused:

Souchan
18-03-2008, 01:06
I dont have the PDF on me at work, but i think you still fail on a roll of a 6 for the check.. maybe imw rong and someoen can clairify before i get home? :confused:

I have no knowledge how that check works, but still our seraphs are I6 and not 5, which might not matter here, but is good to keep in mind anyway^^

(nothing like a group of serpahs charging a bunch of eldar/dark eldar with I5 and a 5+ save, who needs power weapons anyway?)

Borthcollective
18-03-2008, 15:04
well this post was suppose to be about rhino rushes...so I used this list yesterday did very well in 5th ed. rules

What do you think?

HQ: 1
1 palantine w/ pistol-36 (always first person to die)

TROOPS: 6 (Note we play rhinos as 50 points for armor and smoke due to changes in CSM codex)
10 battle sisters w/ vet-rhino w/ armor and smoke, book-179
10 battle sisters w/ vet-rhino w/ armor and smoke, book-179
10 battle sisters w/ vet-rhino w/ armor and smoke, book-179
10 battle sisters w/ vet-rhino w/ armor and smoke-174
10 battle sisters w/ vet-rhino w/ armor and smoke-174
10 battle sisters w/ vet-rhino w/ armor and smoke-174

HEAVY: 3
3 exorcist-405

TOTAL: 1500 points

Sounds like you're a boring opponent.

WallWeasels
19-03-2008, 08:00
well currently I'm mixed between using more rhino squads, or seraphim.
Right now I either run 3~4 squads of 15 sister units, and 2 units of seraphim, or alternatively 1~2 rhino squads.
Its done quite well in 4th, but I have yet to do a ton of testing myself in 5th.

Inquisitor_Eljer
19-03-2008, 17:59
What do you think?

HQ: 1
1 palantine w/ pistol-36 (always first person to die)

TROOPS: 6 (Note we play rhinos as 50 points for armor and smoke due to changes in CSM codex)
10 battle sisters w/ vet-rhino w/ armor and smoke, book-179
10 battle sisters w/ vet-rhino w/ armor and smoke, book-179
10 battle sisters w/ vet-rhino w/ armor and smoke, book-179
10 battle sisters w/ vet-rhino w/ armor and smoke-174
10 battle sisters w/ vet-rhino w/ armor and smoke-174
10 battle sisters w/ vet-rhino w/ armor and smoke-174

HEAVY: 3
3 exorcist-405

TOTAL: 1500 points

While I get the concept you're going for, I'd personally still be looking to field something like this:

HQ
1 Canoness - Jump pattern

Troops
15 battle sisters - 2 meltas w/ vet & book
15 battle sisters - 2 meltas w/ vet & book
* 15 battle sisters - 2 meltas w/ vet & book
10 battle sisters - 1 melta & 1 hvy flamer w/ vet-rhino w/ armor and smoke, book
10 battle sisters - 1 melta & 1 hvy flamer w/ vet-rhino w/ armor and smoke, book
*10 battle sisters - 1 melta & 1 hvy flamer w/ vet-rhino w/ armor and smoke, book

Fast Attack
8 Seraphim - 1 TL Hand Flamers & 1 TL Inferno Pistols - VSS w/ Eviserator or Plasma & Power Weapon
*8 Seraphim - 1 TL Hand Flamers & 1 TL Inferno Pistols - VSS w/ Eviserator or Plasma & Power Weapon

Heavy Support
Exorcist w/ PMSB, xtra armor & Smoke
Exorcist w/ PMSB, xtra armor & Smoke
*8/10 Retributors - 4 Hvy Bolters - VSS w/ Book (optional Simulacrum)

All '*' units are optional / flexible choices depending on the size of the game.

downundercadet07
19-03-2008, 18:31
With the changes to templates would you consider switching all your seraph special weapons over flamers Eljer?

Borthcollective
19-03-2008, 21:46
With the changes to templates would you consider switching all your seraph special weapons over flamers Eljer?

Unless my book is wrong, on 2 seraphim can have flamers/infernos.

Inquisitor_Eljer
19-03-2008, 21:56
With the changes to templates would you consider switching all your seraph special weapons over flamers Eljer?

Personally depends on the wording of the changes. If it's because the templates are a bit larger / longer, that's nice, but the Inferno & plasma pistols are still there for anti-tank and anti-MEQ. I don't think I'd run an all flamer force as I like to have some anti-mech and anti-MEQ options. It also depends on the foe I'm facing...if it's very horde I'd consider running 2 TL-Hand-Flamers per squad just for the extra coverage.

I personally like to lay down a flamer template for maximum coverage then roll bolt-pistol hits, inferno pistols hits and plasma pistol hits...roll for DG if hits are avg or above and then begin resolving the wounds in the same sequence, flame, bolt, inferno, plasma.

It's the STR & AP that's nice about the Inferno Pistols...hard to give those up. Now if they'd only make a model for them.

Inquisitor_Eljer
19-03-2008, 21:59
Unless my book is wrong, on 2 seraphim can have flamers/infernos.

I think he meant running with the maximum of flamers per squad, being 2. Seraphim squads are capped at 2 special weapon load-outs being twin-linked hand-flamers or twin-linked inferno pistols.

Universal squads I'd probably still run 1 and 1 with the VSS having a plama pistol back-up.

Horde specific, yeah, I'd run 2 sets of hand-flamers. Anti-Mech or Anti-MEQ, run 2 sets of inferno pistols.

zealot!
20-03-2008, 03:12
5th ed is horde specific =)

J-rock
21-03-2008, 13:41
"I personally like to lay down a flamer template for maximum coverage then roll bolt-pistol hits, inferno pistols hits and plasma pistol hits...roll for DG if hits are avg or above and then begin resolving the wounds in the same sequence, flame, bolt, inferno, plasma."


Remember that you need to declare acts of faith at the start of your turn, not in the middle.

-jon-

electricblooz
21-03-2008, 14:03
Remember that you need to declare acts of faith at the start of your turn, not in the middle.

-jon-

I believe it's the start of the phase in which they are used and not turn, important difference there....

Mandragola
21-03-2008, 14:08
Remember that you need to declare acts of faith at the start of your turn, not in the middle.

That isn't the case. Each act of faith specifies when it is used. You can use each one only once per phase, not turn, and the effects tend to only last for a phase, though light of the emperor lasts a turn.]

Divine guidance is tested after rolling to hit, but before rolling to wound. I suppose you should do all the hits for the unit before rolling to wound, but that may conflict with the new rules for multiple template weapons. I'm also unclear on how it would work for a CC involving models with different initiative values.

J-rock
21-03-2008, 15:57
My apologies guys, I should have checked the codex first. Acts of faith are declared and tested at the start of the phase, except for divine guidance, which is declared after hitting and before wounding.

Enagage brain, then post...

randyc9999
21-03-2008, 16:15
The one concern I have about the Rhino Rush under 5th is that smoke doesn't downgrade hits to glancing; it only provides a 5+ save.

Mandragola
21-03-2008, 16:40
We're not going back to 3rd edition rhino rush. Rhinos certainly won't be invincible.

There are changes that benefit transports a lot though. One of these is that you know who is going to have first turn when you deploy. Rhino rush will be pretty effective if you are going first but you need to build an army that also works if it goes second.

On the whole vehicles are a lot tougher in 5th but that may not apply to rhinos during the crucial dash on turn one when they pop smoke, usually the only time they actually have troops inside. On the other hand, the penalty for having your rhinos destroyed is pretty minor for sisters with their power armour, good LD and so on.

I think that sisters probably have the best rhino based attack, but there are other transport options that also look pretty interesting. A black templars crusader squad in a LRC looks pretty serious as a troops choice and eldar have some great options for stuff to go in wave serpents.

A lot depends on the meta game. Currently lots of people are talking about horde and sisters rhino rush is great against horde. I think, however, that transports will be relatively common and armour 14 vehicles, especially the monolith, will probably be played quite a lot. Mobility will remain essential, as will be the ability to destroy other people's mobile weaponry.

Inquisitor_Eljer
21-03-2008, 20:52
"I personally like to lay down a flamer template for maximum coverage then roll bolt-pistol hits, inferno pistols hits and plasma pistol hits...roll for DG if hits are avg or above and then begin resolving the wounds in the same sequence, flame, bolt, inferno, plasma."


Remember that you need to declare acts of faith at the start of your turn, not in the middle.

-jon-

Please check the wording of Divine Guidance...it is specifically rolled AFTER hits are determined, BUT before wounds are rolled. ;)

EDIT: You already did...please ignore this one.

mateo442
27-03-2008, 01:52
So does anyone think that the repressor becomes a better tank in 5th edition? considering that supposedly vehiclles will last longer? IE a mobile fire platform?

Math Mathonwy
27-03-2008, 08:54
As with 4th edition and again in 5th edition Seraphim will be a useless squad not worth the points (Woah! No close combat ability and twin-linked bolt pistols. Scary). Your points are better spent on an exorcist/retributor squad with 4x heavy flamers/dominion squad with 4x melta guns in immolator.
What are you smoking, man?

Repentia may work, especially now they can ride in the inquisitor's land raider.

To be honest I still wouldn't rate them that highly. They have one attack each, t3 and a 4+ save. They only work in pretty specialised situations.
GW didn't playtest them even once and I'm sure of it. They are hideously expensive, out of control, squishy, have only one attack each and always go last. Were they half the points that they are now... I still wouldn't take them! They are superbly weird and almost like a gigantic typo.

Long_Fang
27-03-2008, 12:30
GW didn't playtest them even once and I'm sure of it. They are hideously expensive, out of control, squishy, have only one attack each and always go last. Were they half the points that they are now... I still wouldn't take them! They are superbly weird and almost like a gigantic typo.

This was GW back of the napkin calculation.

In a pub somewhere in the UK....
"Okay, so they each get an Eviscerator, that's what...30 points in the armory?"
"Yeah...."
"Man, at 20 points, these guys are a steal..."
"Yeah..."

BaronDG
27-03-2008, 15:24
Ha ha, that's a good one! I remember one of the GW guys posting here some time after the Witchhunters codex was released. On repentia he said something like this:

Well, witchhunters arn't meant to play that way so either we could give you a choice that sucks or we don't give it at all.

Thanks, mate...

Long_Fang
27-03-2008, 21:22
I was never lucky to read such an incredible post...at least they admit that Repentia suck.

feintstar
31-03-2008, 10:07
Although repentitia will suck, has anyone yet considered the use of Chapter Approved Zealots? Given the new assault rules will make most people run away, here is a horde that will never flee, has loads of eviscerators, and with a little tweaking, can ride in Rhinos if necessary, and, of course, can run. And its a troop choice, which really makes those Objectives look quite juicy, don't you think?

Rhinos seem to be best used in a mobile terrian sense - this edition seems to exist within a dearth of LOS blocking terrain - Massed Rhinos will give you a massive advantage, akin to Wood Elves in Fantasy moving the woods around.

Mandragola
31-03-2008, 10:38
Rhinos are ok as mobile terrain but without entanglement I think it really is ok to be inside the tank in most situations. You can fire your heavy flamer out of it after all.

Remember that terrain that actually does block LOS actually does block LOS. People are hung up on area terrain not blocking LOS but if you really can't see the other guy through a wood then you can't shoot.

Inquisitor_Eljer
01-04-2008, 21:13
So does anyone think that the repressor becomes a better tank in 5th edition? considering that supposedly vehiclles will last longer? IE a mobile fire platform?

I love the Repressor and would enjoy it greatly if GW would make them the main transport option for the Sisters of Battle in the future. It'll never be a 'tank', but it is a good transport for bolter toting Sisters.

Wombats
08-04-2008, 14:02
Having played a Sisters Rhino Rush list for the last year...

...I think Seraphim should be in there at a 1:2 ratio to Battle Sisters.

Hit and Run gives you another golden round of close range shooting.
One round of close range shooting executed well is enough to win you the game with Sisters.

Hit and Run multiplies the effectiveness of the Battle Sister units and keeps them out of combat and firing.

Going all out Rhino squads will mean a power weapon squad will go through you like butter, Book of St Lucius or not.


Rhinos are ok as mobile terrain but without entanglement I think it really is ok to be inside the tank in most situations.

I've surrounded a transport 1" on all sides and automatically destroyed the unit inside after giving it an Eviscerating several times now. In vehicle bad. Any mobile army will punish you for this.


Seraphim can pull off invulnerable saves at squad size 8, can position flamers optimally after all the Rhinos pop, hit twice as hard in close combat...they are the closest thing we have to a unit that counters assault specialists and perform almost as well as Battle Sisters in shooting to boot.

ArmouredWing
08-04-2008, 15:32
Just browsing over the posts here but everyone seems to have missed one of the more important changes to SoB and in particular Seraphim.

If the 'leaked' ruleset is to be believed then Seraphim will automatically be upgraded to use DS. To me this seems like a pretty good improvement, especially when you take into account that a canoness geared up with a jump pack would also benefit from the DS rule. In my ind they've become one of the best tank/character hunting units in the game and have given SoB's a useful strike unit which they've very much been in need of.

Mandragola
08-04-2008, 18:48
I'm quite undecided about seraphim.

I would like for my Cannoness to be useful and it seems that a jump pack would be the best way to achieve that. According to the pdf, she will be targettable like any other unit unless attached though. It's logical to attach her to a seraphim squad, but the problem with that is that she prevents them from using hit and run.

An alternative would be to put her in an immolator with a celestian bodyguard. That is good in that they all arrive for dawn of war set ups, but bad because they can't charge out of their rhino, at least after it moves. I do like the rule that makes Celestians always hit on a 3+ though, nice with an evicerator on the vet, and I think they will actually be comparable with seraphim in CC thanks to that. On the other hand, Celestians aren't really all that much better than basic sisters, they don't score and they give away more KPs.

Both options would allow me some cool modelling opportunities so nothing to choose between them on that score. Both would give me a faith point.

The annoying thing is that the Cannoness can't fit in a rhino with one of my battle sister squads. Therefore she either has to walk, alone, or get a bodyguard of some kind. Hmm.

I could just not bother with a Cannoness. I could have a cheap Palatine with a book of St. Lucius and attach her to m IG platoon HQ to give nearby guard better LD. I could possibly have an inquisitor lord, but I can't see any way that he could be worth his points. Tricky.

RSIxidor
08-04-2008, 21:52
Unless there is an errata, SOBs will not get the new Preferred Enemy rule, because they don't have it. They have the Holy Vengeance or something like that. Its worded just like the 4th ed PE for multiple enemies, but is not actually it. IIRC.

Souchan
08-04-2008, 23:44
Quite fortunately, the FAQ(more or less) says it's Preferred enemy.

It is in fact not worded like the 4th ed book, as there is no such thing as a tyranid montrous creature(well, you know what I mean) anymore ;)

RSIxidor
09-04-2008, 13:43
Quite fortunately, the FAQ(more or less) says it's Preferred enemy.

It is in fact not worded like the 4th ed book, as there is no such thing as a tyranid montrous creature(well, you know what I mean) anymore ;)

I had totally forgotten about this. I can definitely see some people arguing this with 5th coming out, saying things like, "No, that errata was for Fourth, use the Fourth rules."

Do not associate with these people.

Vexbane
02-05-2008, 21:45
Would a retributor squad with all hvy flamers in an immolator, maybe the immolator with HB or hvy flamers be a viable choice in 5th edition? Has anyone tried this? I am going to be starting a WH army so any input will be appreciated.

warchild9
03-05-2008, 00:05
honestly if you could pin the fuel tank for the immolator on the turrent you could switch them both out to suit your needs

Souchan
03-05-2008, 01:28
Would a retributor squad with all hvy flamers in an immolator, maybe the immolator with HB or hvy flamers be a viable choice in 5th edition? Has anyone tried this? I am going to be starting a WH army so any input will be appreciated.

Honestly I wish we still could, but alas I am afraid Retributor's only come in MM or Heavy Bolter flavours these days :(

HB Immolator has always struck me as a bit of a waste, but that's because I am an addict to the Immo's move capability when it has the flamer's.

Kirasu
03-05-2008, 06:44
Seraphim are and have always been overpriced for what they do.. Same price as an assault marine with twin linked bolt pistols? oh very scary indeed.. Out of 10 shots thats 8 hits instead of 6. Fusion pistols? good within 3" I suppose, marines get plasma

Less T, less S, less WS, less attacks.. Jump packs are +7pts.. Seraphim should be 18 pts max.. Hit and run with an I check isnt very impressive either.. Might as well just take assassins for CC or something cause SoB are just imperial guard in power armor when it comes to HTH abilities (Of course some acts of faith make them stronger)

Vexbane
03-05-2008, 16:15
@Souchan- I think I meant Dominions(sp?). They are regular flamers though:(. All multimeltas would be fun though.

Does anyone use the Vindacare assassin? He seems pretty badass. I would love to pluck plasma cannon guys and sargents out of squads not to mention his one round that could pop a vehicle.

Souchan
03-05-2008, 18:38
Vindicare has a few issue's but can take out essential targets if your army needs that help. I'm a big Eversor/Callidus fan though, Ev because he's one hell of a cheap number cruncher that draws more attention to him than he needs to and Calli because she is the quintessential Assassin, just be aware of her limitations.

And I love dominions with 4 flamers already, come 5th they'll be dazzling :D

Jericho
05-05-2008, 08:49
Surely you mean Dominions with 6 flamers and the Litanies of Faith... Vet w/ one-shot flamer and a Palatine w/ one-shot flamer, hooray :D

Souchan
05-05-2008, 12:05
Surely you mean Dominions with 6 flamers and the Litanies of Faith... Vet w/ one-shot flamer and a Palatine w/ one-shot flamer, hooray :D

Heck if you're going that route add Celestine/another sororitas heroine with one shot. ^^

kiron
20-05-2008, 03:11
do sisters suffer any drawbacks from the 5th ed. rules? All i see are positive benefits...

lets see benefits

-no more entangalement, great for mech lists
-can run, so good for footsloggers
-book of st. lucius makes sisters not affected by morale rule of losing cc
-flamers are now sickening with all templates automatically hit with no partials and all hits are first counted BEFORE wounds, great for DG
-troops count as scoring, no problem, sister squads make 30%+ of a sister force anyways
-mostly got melta weapons so great for damage charts even if glancing only get -1 from chart or do melta automatically penetrate, it latter even better
-kill points don't affect sisters as much
-even single models can now contest or capture (if troops) objectives! Great a model with book of st. lucius and constant invulnerable save may last to capture/contest objective!
-weapon destroyed exorcists and rhinos can now tank ram and contest objectives, not useless anymore!

oh wait one slight negative, hit and run slightly nerfed since now have to pass I test, not THAAT bad

Communist
20-05-2008, 11:42
Seraphim are and have always been overpriced for what they do.. Same price as an assault marine with twin linked bolt pistols? oh very scary indeed.. Out of 10 shots thats 8 hits instead of 6. Fusion pistols? good within 3" I suppose, marines get plasma

Less T, less S, less WS, less attacks.. Jump packs are +7pts.. Seraphim should be 18 pts max.. Hit and run with an I check isnt very impressive either.. Might as well just take assassins for CC or something cause SoB are just imperial guard in power armor when it comes to HTH abilities (Of course some acts of faith make them stronger)


Woooah! Hold up there! Seraphim are incredible! And you can't compare them to marines, I mean that's just silly. We can't take assault marines, and I will say I would much rather the Seraphim! I mean, faith powers, the admititly not to useful courage bonus, and the Inferno pistols that are the bane of my oppenent's rear armour! I feel ashamed for you.



On another note, I might now use my repentia,they can actually run! Yes, they are a waste, but I use them to plug into a big unit and battle out.

Starks333
20-05-2008, 17:13
EDIT...this is meant for around 1700pts

im not quite sure, but how exactly do 6 twin linked pistol shotsd and two flamers mean dead everything? DG is cool an all but still requires 6s and well vs anything but 5-6+ models its not going to murder much at all

whats 6 bolt pistol shots?

i do support the 6man twin flamer unit however (vet sis with eviscerator or power weapon), always have, as i think its a great unit for flanking or flying up the sidelines to hit certain units

and as for the ork comment, well of course the unit will shread orks, orks have no save and you placed two flame templates on them!! the question is why were you allowed to do so?

i actually suggest you look into immolators

3 troop choices in rhinos, take some elites in immolators, you can give the celestians meltas, or if you choose multi meltas for the immies you can take flamers

now before anyone goes and says multi meltas are dumb heres a simple tactic.....race up, pop smoke...next turn assuming not all have been stunned as you do have an army along side you...you are now in practical range to maybe consider using the half range effectiveness of the multi melta, you can move up 6" unload the squad, fire with both

multi meltas on vehicles essentially have a 18" HALF range as in where they get 2d6 pen...because you can move and shoot...this can allow you to use exorcists to look after heavy troops, or not have to get into LOS of the big bad tanks

if you choose the flamer immies, then the troops inside get to do the tank busting, albeit its a bit trickier due to the range, but they are more reasonably sacrificed

i firmly believe 3-4 units of rhino chicks is scary, you have to use them together, and you want to wipe out squads not just hurt them.....

the problem is always combat, and seraphim with VSS can provide a decent flank unit to assist in combat, they are not going to devastate, but they can help out enough that you might be able to hold off, or win...generally you are looking for a stalemate...this is why i suggest aiming to annihilate squads in full rather than take chunks out...because for each squad you take out, you remove the amount of units the opponent has to tie you up in combat with, if all your chicks are in combat individually you will lose...always gang up

last point, if you can find points, i really think eviscerators in troop squads can be worth it...its expensive, but its potential kills that might make or break a combat especially when ganging up (20 chicks with 2 eviscerators vs 10 marines for example)

i also have this belief that if you can work it out, a rhino rush plus penitants could work, just shield them with the rhinos, especially with the cover save rules, which is FAR more beneficial to penitants

Xenobane
21-05-2008, 03:09
Seraphim are and have always been overpriced for what they do.. Same price as an assault marine with twin linked bolt pistols? oh very scary indeed.. Out of 10 shots thats 8 hits instead of 6. Fusion pistols? good within 3" I suppose, marines get plasma

Less T, less S, less WS, less attacks.. Jump packs are +7pts.. Seraphim should be 18 pts max.. Hit and run with an I check isnt very impressive either.. Might as well just take assassins for CC or something cause SoB are just imperial guard in power armor when it comes to HTH abilities (Of course some acts of faith make them stronger)

How wrong can you get?

Less WS than what? Seraphim have WS4, so Marines will hit on 4. That, along with the extra attack for CC weapons, Initiative 4, Ld 9, and the fact that more often than not they will have the charge, makes absurd any idea that they are "imperial guard in power armour".

Plus you need to check Hit and Run again, and have a think about its effectiveness.

zealot!
21-05-2008, 04:02
... It's logical to attach her to a seraphim squad, but the problem with that is that she prevents them from using hit and run.

on the turn you charge, have her leave the unit before charging.. with her movement. you just have to declare it and badabing. then she holds down the unit they are HaRing away from too. its nice.

DullMentalRacket
21-05-2008, 04:19
We need to clear this up for people, whoever claims that seraphim are anything less than an amazing unit are just plain wrong :P

deFl0
21-05-2008, 18:11
Serephim are ok... Sometimes tehy suck sometimes they are game winning. Tehy woudl be better if a cannoness could get hin and run. That said in 5th ed, all jump troops are rumored to get deepstrike. So Serephim migth be able to deepstrike again. If that's the case I wouldn;t see why every list would not run 2 min squads with inferno pistols.

Pete

tarrin
22-05-2008, 03:27
maybe because you need to jump in so close to tanks to get the pistols in range you can easily lose the whole unit with a slightly poor scatter or drop out of 6" range. you gonna take that risk with 200 points.

seraphim are an awesome unit for the points when used right, but a lot of people do try to use them liek assault marines which they are not.

Communist
22-05-2008, 11:26
Assault marines, they are not. I use mine as rear armour tank hunters for the fusion pistols, engaging heavy weapon squads, or anything I think they can take. Also, the acts of faith that allow all 6s to rend is amazing on these gals. I mean, I took down a squad of termies with it. And they were like, big =o

deFl0
22-05-2008, 15:43
maybe because you need to jump in so close to tanks to get the pistols in range you can easily lose the whole unit with a slightly poor scatter or drop out of 6" range. you gonna take that risk with 200 points.

2 mini deep striking serephim squads? Errr... Yes. Every game.

It's a no brainer.

In 5th ed they aren't giving up VPs, and your pay off is killing a large damage causing unit...

The ability to deal with indirect fire weapons is a huge hole in the list. Lack of deployment options is the single thing that keeps SOBs from being a top tier army.

Copella
23-05-2008, 04:23
I love Seraphims. They're sometimes the backbone of my army. They are pretty expensive, and are S & T 3, none the less, are still really good. I always use two twin hand flamers right now. I've got a conversion of a twin inferno pistols model, but it still needs to be painted. :(

Melta bombs are usually what i give em if i need more than an exorcist for AT. They're fast, can usually survive in CC (with faith points, survival is almost expected, see "Spirit of the Martyr") and can usually get out of CC to open up shooting on the unit if need be. Also, since they do use pistols it wouldn't be totally impossible to use the double tap shooting instead of CC to really soften up a unit. Might even make them run.

Deepstriking, I've never had much luck at all with reserve rolls, nor have most of my oppenants (the poor HQ and termie squad of doom, that doesn't show up till turn 5 :wtf:). Its a good idea, but usually falls under personal prefferance than superior tactics.

deFl0
28-05-2008, 21:26
One thing no body has brought up is that transports are no longer dedicated, so if you field IG troops you can throw your SOBs in the Chimeras instead so you can now run the girls as a 12 man squad. Another thought is an inquisitor lord and his land raider transports. Might be an interesting transport option, especially for something like the WD zealots.

I can't remember if you can take a crusader, but if you can that could be a nasty combo...

Another thought I've been having is going SOB heavy with guard. unmodifiable LD 10 conscript squads on an objective just seems retardedly difficult to dislodge.

Also, Vet sisters with a evicerator, or evicerators in general become much better compared to PFs, so they might actually be worth taking.

Finally, Rhino rush armies are actually impacted a bit. Sure they are awesome for the secure and hold, and the tokens mission.... But the kill point mission might be rough. If you are running 5 or 6 rhinos, you might not be able to win against some foot slogging armies. It's easy to kill 6 rhinos, it's much harder to kill 6 foot slogging ork units, and that's assuming you don't lose any other units...

Pete

Copella
30-05-2008, 04:27
Not that its really related to this thread, but i did get that model with the inferno pistols done. Pic of the squad here:http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z...rSeraphim1.jpg C&C in the other thread please :)
Other thread being http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2656663#post2656663


Onto topic at hand; the new transport rule rumor certainly has me happy. I'd love to run my armored troops in squads of 12. Also, I've always wanted a reason to make a Sisters Land raider. :D
Can you say Chimera rush now?