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View Full Version : New rumored wound allocation system notably nerfs certain units?



Battle-Brother Wags
14-03-2008, 00:10
Ok, this is an observation and a question at the same time. If I remember correctly from the PDF (its been a while since I've read it), the new wound allocation system says that you don't have to take wounds from within 2 inches of the base to base models in close combat. If this is true, it seems like certain units, particularly Shining Spears, are in a lot of trouble. While I have never actually used Spears, I've been thinking about getting some and this problem popped into view and has kept me from buying any as of yet.

As I understand what the eldar tacticians have explained, the Shining Spear's saving grace (due to their few numbers) is that they can usually clear their area of affect of any return attacks. Or if not clear it totally, they can reduce the return offensive to the point where they can weather it till the next turn in which case they can break off and re-charge. But if the opponent can take the kills from the back of the unit then the Spears will be taking alot of return attacks (unless they can kill the unit outright) and will probably not survive.

Does this mean that Spears and other small hit-em-hard-and-fall-away units are in for a heap of trouble in 5ed?

BTW, I'm not trying to start another "My eldar are screwed again" thread. I honestly don't care if the Eldar or the Space Wolves (my main two armies) get nerfed straight into the ground. I'm going to play them because I love the fluff, the look of the army, and their mine. So please don't start accusing me of being a whiny eldar player. This was something that occured to me and I wanted to get other people's take on it. Perhaps I'm looking at it incorrectly or have a wrong view of how Shining Spears and similar units work in the first place.

EDIT: Sweet, I'm a chaplain now! :-)

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
14-03-2008, 00:47
yes you are right - now bigger units will have some utility :)

but such big unit costs its points and eldar are combine arms force, and big unit can be target of another unit.

beside - SS have 4T and 3+ save - they are not so fragile ;)

Battle-Brother Wags
14-03-2008, 00:55
yes you are right - now bigger units will have some utility :)

but such big unit costs its points and eldar are combine arms force, and big unit can be target of another unit.

beside - SS have 4T and 3+ save - they are not so fragile ;)

Not sure if I understand what you're saying, but I'll take a stab at it:

Let something else charge an opponent and then finish them off with the Shining Spears.

Yes?

red_drake
14-03-2008, 00:59
or shoot them to death with assorted shooty units/ and then maby charge the spears in

Gensuke626
14-03-2008, 01:05
or shoot them to death with assorted shooty units/ and then maby charge the spears in

Reaper/Warwalker + Shuricats on SS Jetbike + SS Charge = Dead big unit we hope, yes?

Oligarch
14-03-2008, 02:06
Ok, this is an observation and a question at the same time. If I remember correctly from the PDF (its been a while since I've read it), the new wound allocation system says that you don't have to take wounds from within 2 inches of the base to base models in close combat. If this is true, it seems like certain units, particularly Shining Spears, are in a lot of trouble. While I have never actually used Spears, I've been thinking about getting some and this problem popped into view and has kept me from buying any as of yet.

As I understand what the eldar tacticians have explained, the Shining Spear's saving grace (due to their few numbers) is that they can usually clear their area of affect of any return attacks. Or if not clear it totally, they can reduce the return offensive to the point where they can weather it till the next turn in which case they can break off and re-charge. But if the opponent can take the kills from the back of the unit then the Spears will be taking alot of return attacks (unless they can kill the unit outright) and will probably not survive.

Does this mean that Spears and other small hit-em-hard-and-fall-away units are in for a heap of trouble in 5ed?

BTW, I'm not trying to start another "My eldar are screwed again" thread. I honestly don't care if the Eldar or the Space Wolves (my main two armies) get nerfed straight into the ground. I'm going to play them because I love the fluff, the look of the army, and their mine. So please don't start accusing me of being a whiny eldar player. This was something that occured to me and I wanted to get other people's take on it. Perhaps I'm looking at it incorrectly or have a wrong view of how Shining Spears and similar units work in the first place.

EDIT: Sweet, I'm a chaplain now! :-)

Erm, unless I've seriously misread my 4th edition rulebook, the models you remove don't actually have to be within 2" of any model that could conceivably kill them, they just have to be engaged (in other words, base to base or within 2" of a friendly model in base to base). The only exception is IC kills, because the IC's controlling player selects his own kills.

What this means, as far as I can see, is that unless you're stretched out in some weird conga line (not that I haven't seen that happen too many times to count, don't get me wrong), the 5th rule isn't that much different in actual game terms from the 4th rule covering the same situation.

Could some rules guru please tell me if I'm wrong here? (And preferably, why?)

/Oligarch

red_drake
14-03-2008, 04:10
in 4th edition, a unit of SS could clear the 'kill zone' (base to base and within 2") relitivaly easy, then they wouldnt take any hits against them, and would be free to hit and run and such.... however, in 5th, with kills taken from anywhere in the unit, it becomes very difficult to clear the kill zone so that they are safe from retaliation

Battle-Brother Wags
14-03-2008, 12:09
Erm, unless I've seriously misread my 4th edition rulebook, the models you remove don't actually have to be within 2" of any model that could conceivably kill them, they just have to be engaged (in other words, base to base or within 2" of a friendly model in base to base). The only exception is IC kills, because the IC's controlling player selects his own kills.

What this means, as far as I can see, is that unless you're stretched out in some weird conga line (not that I haven't seen that happen too many times to count, don't get me wrong), the 5th rule isn't that much different in actual game terms from the 4th rule covering the same situation.

Could some rules guru please tell me if I'm wrong here? (And preferably, why?)

/Oligarch

No, I wasn't talking about taking the wounds from one particular model and applying them to only the enemy models either in base to base or within 2 inches of base to base of that model. That would be cumbersome and inane. What I was talking about was taking the wounds from the SS unit as a WHOLE and applying them to the enemy unit that is in base to base or within 2 inches of the base to base.

But as I understand it, it is common practice for a SS unit to attack the side of another unit kinda like this - (SS = Shining Spear, XX = Whatever baddie you fancy)

SS SSXX XX XX XX XX
SS SSXX XX XX XX XX

This way the SSs clear out the four to six guys closest to them as per the B2B/2" rule and the six to four guys left are no longer in B2B and cannot retaliate. But under the 5ed rules, the wounds can be applied to the RIGHTMOST XXs, leaving the LEFTMOST XXs to fight back.

Get it?

kaptin_blacksquigg
14-03-2008, 12:18
The new wound allocation system does hurt elite units, but combat resolution means that if they do survive the attacks back the other guys will be running.

Battle-Brother Wags
14-03-2008, 12:36
The new wound allocation system does hurt elite units, but combat resolution means that if they do survive the attacks back the other guys will be running.

Thats a pretty big IF. . . oh well. I don't think Shining Spears are for me anyway. Too many points for what is basically a one shot wonder in any case, especially if they'll always be taking return attacks no matter how well they do unless they completely wipe the unit out in the first place, which will just leave them in the open for the opponent's next round of firing anyway.

Zandur of Bronte
14-03-2008, 12:53
I see what you mean. A pity.

... who decided we needed a 5th edition, again? :P

- Zandur

Neo799
14-03-2008, 13:35
I can't wait for 5th edition. It will be fun to learn new rules and adapt my army and tactics.

Fixed your post :D

Battle-Brother Wags
14-03-2008, 13:51
Fixed your post :D

If you'll notice, the thread was about adapting tactics in the first place. I've never even used Shining Spears, so its not like I'm whining because my favorite unit got changed. I was posting this to clarify SSs (and other units like them) would not be the new adaptation I'd like to try . . .

. . . but I appreciate your fix anyway, seeings how I agree with the statement anyway. Glad I said it.

Xurben
14-03-2008, 15:32
So run 5 instead of 3, use there shooting on the way in and support them, like you would anyhow :P

They still seem pretty good!

Ozendorph
14-03-2008, 17:11
I've never used Shining Spears, but from the sounds of things they'll best be used attacking already engaged units in 5th Ed. Like the OP stated, they're typically too few in number to smash large infantry units on their own, but a small unit of Spears can swoop in to rescue friendly units or tip the balance in an existing combat. It's just too bad you don't get bonuses in 40k for a flank/rear charge. :)

Oligarch
14-03-2008, 20:20
No, I wasn't talking about taking the wounds from one particular model and applying them to only the enemy models either in base to base or within 2 inches of base to base of that model. That would be cumbersome and inane. What I was talking about was taking the wounds from the SS unit as a WHOLE and applying them to the enemy unit that is in base to base or within 2 inches of the base to base.

But as I understand it, it is common practice for a SS unit to attack the side of another unit kinda like this - (SS = Shining Spear, XX = Whatever baddie you fancy)

SS SSXX XX XX XX XX
SS SSXX XX XX XX XX

This way the SSs clear out the four to six guys closest to them as per the B2B/2" rule and the six to four guys left are no longer in B2B and cannot retaliate. But under the 5ed rules, the wounds can be applied to the RIGHTMOST XXs, leaving the LEFTMOST XXs to fight back.

Get it?

Yeah, I get it. That's a conga line ;)

I guess I've been playing too much with Orks, lately. My boyz tend to form up in uneven clumps, basically rolling across the field as a ball of Orkiness, limbs flailing in all directions, and not really form any even surfaces that could be attacked like that......

Oh well.

/Oligarch

ReveredChaplainDrake
14-03-2008, 21:54
I think that a point is being missed here. Horde units may be able to take models out of the backs of their units, but it isn't all that good.

I'll come up with a really cooky example to make the point. Let's say 20 Sonic Marines take up a full 60 sonic blaster shots against a unit of 30 Orks, but only 5 Orks are in range. Now in 4th edition, this would kinda' suck for the Sonic Blasters because 60 Sonic Blaster shots is ample firepower to clear out plenty more Orks than just five.

In 4th edition, the cap would simply be those five Orks and that's it. But in 5th edition, this means that you get to kill models that you don't actually have range to kill.

bdo
14-03-2008, 23:07
so that means a lictor is still doomed. even if frag grenades/flesh hooks work like plasma grenades as i have heard, he will still be killed by the rest of the squad he charges. that of course is only when he is used alone...

ReveredChaplainDrake
15-03-2008, 04:20
so that means a lictor is still doomed. even if frag grenades/flesh hooks work like plasma grenades as i have heard, he will still be killed by the rest of the squad he charges. that of course is only when he is used alone...

If Broodlords and Scuttle Stealers can come off the enemy's board edge, but Lictors have to deepstrike, that is just plain wrong. I see Lictors getting some advanced kind of board-edge-deployment (if GW wants an easy but crappy solution), or maybe similar deployment from the edge of a terrain piece (in the case that, by some miracle GW decides that they want to do Lictors right).

Maharajah
15-03-2008, 05:16
It also means that Death Cult Assassins will be a lot harder to use effectively.

Carlos
15-03-2008, 16:16
This just means SS act in support of existing units like banshees or harlequins.

Harlies are much better under the new rules if you doom the unit, as you get to re-roll all those to/w dice to get more 6's! Add a few S6 A from the spears and you have a killer combo.

And killer combo's is what eldar are all about.

Meriwether
16-03-2008, 00:58
To this rule I say: About frikkin' time. I thought that squads were fluid, moving things, and not made up of tiny little statues that are frozen in place from turn to turn. It's about time we start treating squads like the amorphous blobs that they are, instead of sometimes amorphous and sometimes discrete little lumps.

As to shining spears: as an eldar and an ork player, I'd have to say that charging SS at huge units has always been a bad idea. They make mincemeat out of smaller, elite units, though. If you want to kill 30 orks, SS are the wrong choice. If you want to kill 5 warbikes, now you're talkin'!

(You could always slaughter half the orks with dire avengers or war walkers before charging in with the shining spears, of course... Or charge in with the spears *and* either banshees or scorpions. I think that eldar units acting alone have always been way less effective than eldar units acting in concert to obliterate one squad at a time.)

Meri

Gensuke626
16-03-2008, 01:13
To this rule I say: About frikkin' time. I thought that squads were fluid, moving things, and not made up of tiny little statues that are frozen in place from turn to turn. It's about time we start treating squads like the amorphous blobs that they are, instead of sometimes amorphous and sometimes discrete little lumps.

As to shining spears: as an eldar and an ork player, I'd have to say that charging SS at huge units has always been a bad idea. They make mincemeat out of smaller, elite units, though. If you want to kill 30 orks, SS are the wrong choice. If you want to kill 5 warbikes, now you're talkin'!

(You could always slaughter half the orks with dire avengers or war walkers before charging in with the shining spears, of course... Or charge in with the spears *and* either banshees or scorpions. I think that eldar units acting alone have always been way less effective than eldar units acting in concert to obliterate one squad at a time.)

Meri

Quoted for Truth.

Now if only I could get Panzees in Ork quantity in a 1500 list, maybe I'd go back to them...

Mojaco
16-03-2008, 12:50
Though this rule is yet another 5th dumbification, I have to admit that sometimes the 'engaged' arguments are a complete waste of time. And usually almost anything is in range anyway. Only the supersized units as orks and gaunts fully benefit, but gaunts had 3" engagement anyway and orks hardly ever come across the board with all 30.

ONe thing though; what does countercharge do now?

Battle-Brother Wags
16-03-2008, 12:59
Though this rule is yet another 5th dumbification, I have to admit that sometimes the 'engaged' arguments are a complete waste of time. And usually almost anything is in range anyway. Only the supersized units as orks and gaunts fully benefit, but gaunts had 3" engagement anyway and orks hardly ever come across the board with all 30.

Actually I think that tactical play forced alot of situations where elongated units could be exploited. Setting up in a way so as to force the enemy through choke points, for one, or attacking semi-stationary gunlines which, in accordance with their name, are formed in a line.


ONe thing though; what does countercharge do now?

Countercharge, if it still exists, should still be useful in that as it stands now in the PDF, anything can take a wound, but not everything can attack. IIRC, you still have to be within 2" of B2B in order to attack, so counterattack would still let you get your guys in their to put in their attacks, even though it doesn't change who can or who cannot be wounded. Someone please correct me if I'm recalling wrongly, its been a while since I went through the PDF.

Mojaco
16-03-2008, 14:28
Ahh, so engaged still exists, it really is just for wound removal. So it doesn't even remove pointless arguments from the game. Great.

Wrath
17-03-2008, 10:13
The only noticeable change I see in Counter-Attack is that it now works on Consolidation moves. <again IF the changes from the PDF remain as is>

Borthcollective
17-03-2008, 15:10
I see what you mean. A pity.

... who decided we needed a 5th edition, again? :P

- Zandur

People that quit 40k when 3rd edition came out.

cailus
17-03-2008, 22:43
Small assault units have been on the way out for a while now. They simply don't churn out enough attacks to do enough damage. Even Marines need the full complements of 10 Assault Marines per squad in order to be effective.

Small assault units cannot withstand too many casualties, are extremely vulnerable to powerfists, and often do not roll enough attacks to cripple the units they are assaulting. Every casualty represents a massive loss to fighting capability.

If I had the choice of 5 Assault Terminators or 4 Shining Spears or 30 Orks with a Power Klaw totting Nob or 20 S54 I5 Hormagaunts, I'd always go for the 30 Orks or 20 Hormagaunts.

Battle-Brother Wags
17-03-2008, 23:13
If I had the choice of 5 Assault Terminators or 4 Shining Spears or 30 Orks with a Power Klaw totting Nob or 20 S54 I5 Hormagaunts, I'd always go for the 30 Orks or 20 Hormagaunts.

Dude, I'd DEFINATELY take str 54 hormagaunts!! They'd be . . . like . . . Gigantigaunts!!

Anyway, I know that was probably a typo but I couldn't resist. Are all those units you mentioned at least roughly comparable in price? Because if they aren't, you can't really use the comparison.

Mulciber
18-03-2008, 19:05
What the hell is going on here? last time i came by the 5th edition rumor discussion forum, it was full of reactionaries who were ready to burn anyone at the stake who advocated change to their game.

Now in this thread, i see well thought out, rational, calm responses. Even the OP's concern is pretty rational and calm.

I think this is pretty awesome and I'm out of lurk mode.

To the OP, I have been playtesting these 5th edition rules with my gaming group quite a bit. The wound removal is indeed a blow to small elite close combat units. That blow is MORE than balanced out by another rule that is less flashy, and more easily overlooked. Under the rumored 5th edition rules, if a unit is already locked in close combat, and they are charged, they cannot direct any attacks at the charging unit.

How this has played out for us is that your options for assault are either to make a large, survivable, aggressive assault 'initiater' or to take a small cheap elite assault 'finisher'.

In the case of eldar. A unit of 10 guardians with a nearby avatar, can thin out then absorb a charge from a mob of ork boys. then in your next close combat phase, you could declare a charge with harlequins/shining spears/warlocks. In many cases, due to their superior initiative, the seemingly doomed guardians end up surviving the combat totally, as they are still fearless, and didn't have to brave another round of attacks.

Offensively, this works well with striking scorpions. Two units of striking scorpions supported by just a single shining spears unit makes a very effective assault force. Initiate your assaults with the scorpions, if either unit is having difficulty freeing themselves from a combat, add in the fast shining spears to break the enemies back.

Lastly, the often overlooked new combat resolution system does not favor outnumbering opponents either. If your 5 jetbikes charge my 20 chaos space marines, and you do 4 more wounds than i do, then my leadership gets modified down to 6. I'm very likely to run away, and your unit is likely to initiate a successful sweeping advance. If you didn't have enough spears to survive a retaliatory power fist and some chainswords, then you were undeserving of a combat victory. (thats an opinion, welcome to disagree there)

"hit em hard and fall away" units as you have described them, are not in for heaps of trouble, they will need to interact more with staple units, in the eldar codex, that means large units - big jetbike units, dire avengers, lots of guardians with an avatar, wraithguard... you know, troops.

Ozendorph
18-03-2008, 19:10
^ that's a damn fine post right there. Very good points.

cybercaine
19-03-2008, 01:13
The new wound allocation system does hurt elite units, but combat resolution means that if they do survive the attacks back the other guys will be running.

This is exactly right. The change to combat resolution helps out the elite fighting units a lot more than the current one. Why? Because squad size doesn't matter anymore. Now it's simply a matter of how many wounds you dealt versus how many wounds your opponent dealt. This helps the smaller squads break the larger squads especially when the smaller squads want to avoid the attrition game. And if they leave guys in h2h during wound removal and fail to kill enough of your guys back, that just means that you will get to sweeping advance so that unit won't rally. There is an upshot to that.

MasterDecoy
19-03-2008, 01:16
It seems to make tarpitting a much more viable and deadly option however.

cailus
19-03-2008, 06:54
Dude, I'd DEFINATELY take str 54 hormagaunts!! They'd be . . . like . . . Gigantigaunts!!

Anyway, I know that was probably a typo but I couldn't resist. Are all those units you mentioned at least roughly comparable in price? Because if they aren't, you can't really use the comparison.

A unit of 30 Orks with Powerklaw nob is about 220 points, the Gauints from memory are about 280-ish while the Termies are 200. Not sure what the Panzees are but in my experience they die easily even when led by an Autarch.

Even if you were to go on a point-for-point allocation, I'd still rather the large assault unit over the small elite one.

Where I play the guys with the small elite armies suffer compared to all us horde players (including horde marine players).

cybercaine
19-03-2008, 06:59
Where I play the guys with the small elite armies suffer compared to all us horde players (including horde marine players).

It's because all those elite players are used to currently dealing with a lot of elite lists. Elite lists have been kings for awhile. But horde lists are coming back with the edition of Orks and the change to 5th. Players will have to prepare to face off against hordes, and might want to reconsider those 8 or so railguns. . .

noobzor
19-03-2008, 23:27
I use shining spears to suicide with an autarch into a unit of terminators- they usually kill enough to pay for themselves!
Adding an Autarch to a SS unit almost doubles their attacks (at WS6, too!), which would help a lot in these new rules.
A unit of 4 SS should cost about 152 pts (exarch with no powers/upgrades) so it cannot be used in the unit comparison above