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Snowfire
14-03-2008, 07:21
(Mods/Admin if this is on the wrong area can it plase be moved to the correct area and let me know where it went, thanks)

Page 224 of the Eisenhorn Omnibus by Dan Abnett (bottom of the page): "But scattered among them were a handful of scrab-black landing craft and drop-pods of the Deathwatch chapter"

Is there a CHAPTER of Deathwatch?

I have the Deathwatch kill-team, but when I saw this I knew I had to at least do a company of Deathwatch.

I plan on buying 15 of the Deathwatch bitz packs from Direct Orders (150 guns, shoulder pads and heads, and the Space Marine Company box from my local GW. As for the rules, I plan on using a modified copy of the Deathwatch kill-team rules. Paying Standard points for the marines, but extra points for their guns and ammunition.

How awesome would this look on the battlefield?

As soon as I have a digital camera and all the parts I'll start posting images of my progress

Any ideas or suggestions?

WorLord
14-03-2008, 07:34
Chapter is not really an appropriate term in this case. The space marines of the deathwatch are "loaned" by their various chapters to the service of the ordo xenos of the inquisition. Usually veterans who have distinguished themselves in battle, they are trained to fight aliens and issued equipment not normally available to their chapters. After a period of service, some return to their chapters, retaining dw colors on one shoulder and arm (left, I think).

There doesn't seem to be a set number of deathwatch marines - if the inquisition needs more for a certain campaign, they can just call in a few favors and there they are...:p

Usually, you only see deathwatch in squad sized units, but an entire company would be cool indeed! Most of the units I have seen are a little expensive - lots of power weapons and bolter upgrades. Just be sure to mix up the shoulder pads (right, I think) to show they come from a variety of chapters. Good luck!

warchild9
14-03-2008, 08:14
when i did my deathwatch squad I made them all crimson fist for my crimson fist army i thought they looked cool plus I had a lot of extra crimson fist shoulder pads laying around ....plus they kill orks dead

starlight
14-03-2008, 08:45
The Deathwatch *Chapter* is likely an administrative organisation similar to the Grey Knights. It makes sure the overall organisation keeps going, but doesn't take the field in any but the worst circumstances.

That said, I'm sure that the Deathwatch is both larger than a typical Chapter, and more capable of putting force where it's needed with it's Inquisitional ties.

Khornies & milk
14-03-2008, 11:46
Snowfire
You could just use the ruleset in the DW PDF that's on the GW UK site for turning your Marines into DW, or just make multiple units of the Kill-Team, and just 'specialize' each squad to do a particular task.
My DW list is 2ooo pts, and I went the Kill-Team route, and the conversion possibilities are nearly endless. I used the DA Vet's minis as my DW Vets, and they look great.

An entire Chapter of DW would look truly awesome, if not frightening expensive in both Points and $'s.

Snowfire
14-03-2008, 11:57
Yeah, I though about that, but I don't like SM at all (Heresy I know)

Grey Knights, Sisters of Battle and Deathwatch are as close as I will go to SM. (And yes I know that Deathwatch are SM, just better)

I just like all the awesome ammunition and things you get for Deathwatch. Who doesn't want 18 inch assualt 3 Heavy Bolters (Used one to snipe off an opponents Las-Cannon SM as it was the only model in range), or Assault Marines who can carry Bolters - True Grit style? Sure it's gonna be cheesy as hell, but when it's finished, it will be worth it.

Points - Dont even want to think about it at this time - Almost an Apocolypse only army

Cost in Dollars - I'll keep this private but PM me if you want to know, the cost will surprise you.

Try Again Bragg
14-03-2008, 13:01
The Grey Knights are a regular chapter with their own geenseeds and everything. They operate a little differently than other chapters to do their job and because of their association with the Ordo Malleus.

Despite the way they work, I don't think that it is wrong to refer to the Deathwatch organization as a Chapter.

pookie
14-03-2008, 13:08
Yeah, I though about that, but I don't like SM at all (Heresy I know)

Grey Knights, Sisters of Battle and Deathwatch are as close as I will go to SM. (And yes I know that Deathwatch are SM, just better)

nope, they are the same, with diffrent equipment, its like saying i Like Orks but dont want Green ones....

OT - most people in the Imperium dont know about the DW ( and there specialist nature ) so, when a SM force attacks and these happen to be from the DW it would be natural to assume that the DW Chapter was attacking, its just a outsiders way of giving the force a name.

AdmiralDick
14-03-2008, 14:09
the phrase in the Eisenhorn book is a mistake. the Deathwatch is not a chapter in any way shape of form. a Chapter is a specific organisational structure that certain SM use. it is an increadibly ridgid system set out in the Codex Astartes. in fact it is so ridgid that most bodies called Chapters don't stick to it and aren't real Chapters, but to avoid simply making them outsiders those organisations are deemed 'Non-Codex Chapters', because, for the most part, they adhere to the Codex.

there are other organisations, some common enough and institutionalised enough to have names (Legions being the most obvious) and others that are unique. Grey Knights and Deathwatch are not chapters. but they are accidentally refered to as chapters on occassion because they are not Legions.

very little is described about the Deathwatch's organisation so far, but from what has been made known they are not a standing army. the marines that fight for the Deathwatch either owe some debt to the Ordo Xenos or their chapter does, and after their time serving they are seen as having completed the debt and are entitled to return to their chapter. (exactly what is deemed as enough is up to the Inquisitor in question, so its likely most marines are kept hanging, constantly being asked to come back for 'one last mission'). occasionally an Inquisitor can requisition a Marine who has proved himself to be a vauble asset (although even this will require them to call in a debt from a superior officer).

whilst its possible for a large number of them to be in one place at one time, its unlikely that they will be what we regard as an army, and they will likely only be there long enough to see out a mission (even if that mission extends beyond one 'game'). also as most of their missions are highly covert (much more so than the flashy Grey Knights who are ment to appear as a symbol to the fellow troops of the Imperium) they probably don't have much contact with each other and almost no sense of cameradery (they are from different chapters after all, and might not even know eachothers real names!).


The Grey Knights are a regular chapter with their own geenseeds and everything.

Grey Knights have their own geneseed (making them a family of sorts), but they are not a Chapter. there organisational structure does not follow any of the tenents of the Codex Astartes, so you could just as easily (and wrongly) describe them as a Legion.


nope, they are the same, with diffrent equipment, its like saying i Like Orks but dont want Green ones....

but then it might be the equipment and organisation that is so off putting. so the Deathwatch, with their radically different equipment and organisation might be a whole lot more appetising.

(also, not all orks are green. some can be grey, some are black and i have even seen blue ones).

Try Again Bragg
14-03-2008, 14:37
You said it yourself. They are a chapter that does not follow the Codex Astartes. A non-codex chapter.

pookie
14-03-2008, 14:45
but then it might be the equipment and organisation that is so off putting. so the Deathwatch, with their radically different equipment and organisation might be a whole lot more appetising.

oh i can see that be as they are from SM Chapters they are basicaly marines, thast my point.


(also, not all orks are green. some can be grey, some are black and i have even seen blue ones).


are you talking from a fan point of view or from fluff?

an example would be that the only Blue Orks ive ever heard of are the Death Skulls, but they are only Blue becuase they paint themselves blue, i always though that all 40 Orks were Green or a shade of Green at least?

THE CHIEF
14-03-2008, 15:05
(also, not all orks are green. some can be grey, some are black and i have even seen blue ones).

I've even seen shiny silver ones!

OT - a company of Deathwatch would be awesome, whether you refer to them as a company or a chapter is up to you. I will of course be expecting to see a humungous project log for this if you do choose to go for it :cool:

AdmiralDick
14-03-2008, 15:11
You said it yourself. They are a chapter that does not follow the Codex Astartes. A non-codex chapter.

er... no i didn't. in fact i actually said that organisations called 'non-codex chapters' are not chapters either.

what makes them a chapter? the DW and GK are no more chapters than the Traitor Legions currently are. they get called 'chapters' out of laziness, as a sort of generic catch all meaning any SM organisation that isn't a Legion. but they don't adhere to the CA and they aren't chapters.


oh i can see that be as they are from SM Chapters they are basicaly marines, thast my point.

a SM is a SM is a SM, regardless of what organisation he is part of. that is certainly true, and if you don't like that then you are stuffed (in this context). but an individual marine is not the sum total of the SM concept. as i said previously the GK, DW and Traitor Legions are not chapters and it might well be the Chapter organisation that puts some people off.

that's my point.



are you talking from a fan point of view or from fluff?

an example would be that the only Blue Orks ive ever heard of are the Death Skulls, but they are only Blue becuase they paint themselves blue, i always though that all 40 Orks were Green or a shade of Green at least?

whilst GW orks and goblins have always been around the green pallet, the finite 'greeness' was only locked into 40k in the last codex (where they were explained as being sybiotic with algae). but even that does not stop orks from being a number of colours including purple, blue and grey (plant leaves appear in all of those colours).

Goruax
14-03-2008, 16:10
'non-codex chapters' are not chapters.

what makes them a chapter? the DW and GK are no more chapters than the Traitor Legions currently are. they get called 'chapters' out of laziness, as a sort of generic catch all meaning any SM organisation that isn't a Legion. but they don't adhere to the CA and they aren't chapters.

I'm not too sure what you've been smoking.
Space Marines are organised into formations called 'Chapters'
Those that do not adhere to the Codex Astartes are called 'Non-Codex', not 'Non-Chapter'

Let's take Space Wolves. I know little, but enough, about them:
- They are Space Marines
- They are organised into Great Companies, slightly larger than a Codex Company
- They utilise packs, which are effectively squads, but function differently, since they use 'Non-Codex' tactics, methods, weapon-outfits, etc.

Neither point 2 or 3 invalidates their 'Chapter'-osity, they are still deemed a Chapter, because they are a Space Marine 'Chapter' of roughly 1000 Marines.

The Grey Knights differ from regular Space Marines, as has been described in many fluff-pieces and their general background. For a start they are all psykers and have the purest gene-seed.
However, they are still a 'Chapter', effectively.

So to cap; the term 'Chapter' is a "generic catch all meaning any SM organisation" because this is what a Space Marine Organisation is, post-Heresy.

Try Again Bragg
14-03-2008, 16:25
Of course you would not call the traitor legions chapters, they are traitor legions.

You can call non-codex chapters "chapters because they are non-codex chapters. You cannot call them chapters to explain how they are not chapters. It doesn't make sense.

AdmiralDick
14-03-2008, 20:28
I'm not too sure what you've been smoking.
Space Marines are organised into formations called 'Chapters'
Those that do not adhere to the Codex Astartes are called 'Non-Codex', not 'Non-Chapter'

not at all. a chapter is one particular form of organisation for SMs (and the most common form at that). but Chapters were invented after the HH and a chapter is defined by the CA. if you don't follow the CA your SM organisation is not a Chapter. it is a specific technical term, and not a word for any organisation that happens to involve SMs.

that very, very few SM organisations actually follow the CA doesn't change the text of the book at all. they are, by its definition, not a Chapter. however, because it is a legal requirement that the regular Imperial SM follow the CA, making their structure rigid and accountable, and because basically no one ever lives up to this legal requirement and because it would be stupid to criminalise Humanity's greatest defenders in a single stroke, everyone simply turns a bit of a blind-eye and says 'oh its okay they are a Non-Codex Chapter' (whatever that's supposed to mean, because after all the Chapter is defined by the Codex).

but when SM armies really overstep the mark and it can't just be covered up anymore, they will get kicked out of the Imperium for breaking the law.


Let's take Space Wolves. I know little, but enough, about them:
- They are Space Marines
- They are organised into Great Companies, slightly larger than a Codex Company
- They utilise packs, which are effectively squads, but function differently, since they use 'Non-Codex' tactics, methods, weapon-outfits, etc.

Neither point 2 or 3 invalidates their 'Chapter'-osity, they are still deemed a Chapter, because they are a Space Marine 'Chapter' of roughly 1000 Marines.

well the failure to maintain a Chapter structure does rather put them outside of the Chapter box (a label i don't think the SW give much of a fig about).

its worth pointing out that tactical squads, assault squads and devestator squads do not make something a Chapter. Legions have those same units and they are not Chapters. whilst the those things go towards the standard army requisits of a Chapter there is much more to it than that. the Chapter structure is for the most part not something that interferes with the game. a Chapter has a much more diffused power structure than a Legion, meaning that individual officers have less responsibility and control fewer troops (a Legion could have well over the Chapter's limit of 10 men in a unit). there is a much higher level of transparency and account ability in the chain of command. Chapters give their officers orders and expect them to be followed out to the letter, a Legion would give their officers missions and let them figure it out for themselves. this means that there is less personality involved in a Chapter (one of the reasons the rules of a Chapter are seldom followed) and individuals cannot rise in power by being popular.

the DW and GK in no way fit with anything that is considered transparency and do not follow any of the battlefield organisational requirements to mean they are following the CA and are thus a Chapter.

unless of course you simply believe that a Chapter is anything that involves more than one SM since the HH.


The Grey Knights differ from regular Space Marines, as has been described in many fluff-pieces and their general background. For a start they are all psykers and have the purest gene-seed.
However, they are still a 'Chapter', effectively.

having a gene-seed is nothing to do with being a Chapter and only about being a SM (Legionaires have gene-seed). eitherway, its difficult to discribe the GKs as having the 'purest' gene-seed whilst similataneously having a mutation that in other SM (the Thousand Sons for example) was considered to be bordering on heresy.


So to cap; the term 'Chapter' is a "generic catch all meaning any SM organisation" because this is what a Space Marine Organisation is, post-Heresy.

:eyebrows: i'm not too sure what are you smoking. a Chapter is a form of organisation defined by the CA, which is why loyal SM have to follow the book. its not a catch-all for any SM organisation.


Of course you would not call the traitor legions chapters, they are traitor legions.

You can call non-codex chapters "chapters because they are non-codex chapters. You cannot call them chapters to explain how they are not chapters. It doesn't make sense.

now you've lost me completely. so you would agree that simply being a SM does not mean that what ever organisation you are in is a Chapter? but you believe that any SM organisation that is not explicitly one of the remaining Legions is now a Chapter, such as the GK, DW, the Adeptus Custodes, the Fallen and the 13th Company (the last two both dissappeared before the introduction of the CA)?

i'm also not sure why you are deliberately misrepresenting what i said. i didn't say 'Non-Codex Chapters' were Chapters. in fact i didn't say that the term defined anything at all. it does not. i know nothing more about a SM organisation after you have told me that it is 'Non-Codex' than i did before you told me. the term Chapter on the other hand gives me quite a clear picture of what the organisation is.

i call them Non-Codex Chapters out of politeness, rather than calling them rebels. just like i don't call people fat when that's what they are.

philbrad2
14-03-2008, 20:51
DW don't mobilises as a 'chapter' only as kill teams. Massed formations of DW would be a very rare occurrence. As such they don't take to the field in the traditional chapter-company-squad formations. Kill Teams are more akin to an SM squads with a vet. Sgt or a SM officer/librarian leading them.

The codex/non-codex make up of the DW seems to change with each edition of 40K since the DW appeared. However my personal view is all Chapters would be able to loan personnel to the DW. My own DW include Space Wolves, Templars, Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Scythes of the Emp. all non-codex chapters.

PhilB
:chrome:

Khornies & milk
14-03-2008, 21:03
The Grey Knights are a Chapter who do not follow the Codex Astartes in the matter of force organization.
DW aren't a Chapter, just a 'Chamber Militant'.

Guardian of The Lost
14-03-2008, 21:18
Yes, Do It Make A Full Battle Company And Feild It In Apocalypse You'll Kill Everything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I Cant Wait To See The Pictures.

Temprus
14-03-2008, 21:27
Legion was the term for the original 20 "Chapters" before they were broken down into Chapters, therefore the Tratiors were/are NEVER Chapters, only Legions.

New Chapters are formed by the Ad Mech based on needs/requests of the High Lords of Terra (acting in the Name of the Emperor ), Chapter Masters that wish to create Successor Chapters, other people of power, etc. Their shared set of Gene-Seed and the traditions that were set down when they were founded define a Chapter as a Chapter, not the Codex Astartes. The Codex Astartes defines Robbie's opinions on how a Chapter SHOULD be run, hence the terms Codex Chapters and Non-Codex Chapters.

Grey Knights ARE a Chapter. :D Chapter 666 to be exact. :chrome:

Deathwatch is not a Chapter. They are the only (known) non-Chapter SM organization that is of any permanence (well only Loyalist one at least). Marines are assembled as requested by the Ordo Xenos. The Xenos make a request to a Chapter for a specific number of its members (normally one but some times more), which are selected by the Chapter themselves. Inquisitors can request specific Brothers. The Chapter can choose to grant the request or not.

DW members normally only stay for the duration of a specific event/mission/situation/etc. (which can be days, weeks, months, years, even decades). DW can instead be stationed for a tour of duty at one of the Xenos bases scattered around the Galaxy.

The only (known) permanent member of the Deathwatch is Brother Artimes (from the Inquisitor game) who acts as, but is not, a Chapter Master.

AdmiralDick
14-03-2008, 23:23
Legion was the term for the original 20 "Chapters" before they were broken down into Chapters, therefore the Tratiors were/are NEVER Chapters, only Legions.

i'm not sure i follow your logic here when you say Legion=Chapter and broken up Legion=Chapter are you infact saying that any SM organisation, including a Legion, is a Chapter?

i would like to see how you define what a Chapter is, or where such an idea is generated both by SM in the background and by what you have read in GW publications.


New Chapters are formed by the Ad Mech based on needs/requests of the High Lords of Terra (acting in the Name of the Emperor ), Chapter Masters that wish to create Successor Chapters, other people of power, etc.

i'm not sure if it says it anywhere explicitly but i don't think SMs are allowed to order new Chapters to be made (that would be tantamount to the power the Legions were disbanded for having). otherwise i agree that that is how a Chapter is founded.


Their shared set of Gene-Seed and the traditions that were set down when they were founded define a Chapter as a Chapter, not the Codex Astartes.

i'm afraid i wholey disagree with you on this one. what it appears that you are saying is if a SM army really, really acts like itself, then they are a Chapter. so if a Blood Angels organisation acts more like Blood Angels than White Scars organisation then it is a Chapter. where as if an army acts out of character it is not.

which means that the term Chapter is no definition at all. it says nothing of the organisation or heirachy, tactics or aims and we come back to your definition that the Traitor Legions and even the Deathwatch are therefore Chapters. because after all that's what their collective gene-seed and tradition dictates. (and yet you manage to find space to say that the DW are not a Chapter).

and i'm afraid that that is not an interpretation that i can find in the background anywhere. the Chapter system was invented immeadiately after the HH and is layed out in and defined by the CA. the remaining loyal Legions were reshuffled to produce the 2nd Founding and the first Chapters (although most of them did not stick to the rules).


The Codex Astartes defines Robbie's opinions on how a Chapter SHOULD be run, hence the terms Codex Chapters and Non-Codex Chapters.

whilst it can't be denied that the CA was written by Roboute Guilliman and thus fits with his ideals and opinions very well (much better than the other Legions, save maybe the Imperial Fists), that doesn't say anything about why it was written.

it was not simply some tome that Guilliman wrote to annoy everyone else. it was done at the request of the High Lords of Terra, and as Guilliman was seen as the best person to oversee the new plans, he was put in charge.

the High Lords of Terra wanted a definition of a Chapter and Guilliman gave it to them. his work because offical doctrine and now anyone who doesn't follow that is not officially a Chapter.


Grey Knights ARE a Chapter. :D Chapter 666 to be exact. :chrome:

i can agree that they are usually refered to as a Chapter, but they do nothing that would denote them as being a Chapter as opposed to a Legion, because they are neither. they aren't an independent body as a Chapter is. the entire organisation is normally headed by a non-SM. their squad organisation, equipment and tactic have nothing to do with any definitions of a Chapter. their heirachy of power and path of promotion is again unrealted to Chapter definitions. they even prefer to call themselves a 'Chambre Militant' instead.

Try Again Bragg
15-03-2008, 01:09
You can be a Chapter and not follow the Codex Astartes. Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, my own non-smurf, traited homebrew are all Chapters.

You can use chapter to define any large group of Space Marines that is not already called something else, like a Legion. Yes the Deathwatch only operate in kill teams, but when you add up all of the Deathwatch marines you would probably get something similar in size to a regular Chapter.

I still don't understand how you can call somehting a chapter in order to explain how that something is not a chapter. Whether or not you say non-COdex in front of it, you are still calling it a chapter.

starlight
15-03-2008, 01:29
Actually a *Codex Chapter* is a Marine organisation consisting of ten companies of ten squads of ten marines with attendant support and administrative attachments.

Many Marine *Chapters* play fast and loose with their numbers and formations only paying lip service to the term *Chapter*, but the *Codex Chapter* is a rigid thing, thus the number of *Non-Codex Chapters* floating around, of which several First and Second Founding *Chapters* are prime examples...

Snowfire
15-03-2008, 09:39
Ok, so the plans are being made, and this project will begin in about 2-3 weeks, enough time to pay off bills, buy a digital camera, and obtain the required funds to start purchases.

Any requests for chapters to be included in the army? I have (not including the command squad) 100 shoulder pads to paint and put symbols on. Feel free to mention your own personal army, just provide the colour scheme.

First in, first served basis.

AdmiralDick
15-03-2008, 11:09
Space Sharks and Rainbow Warriors!

they never get a look in.

Cornelius
15-03-2008, 11:46
This must be THE geekiest thread I've ever seen on Warseer. I'm laughing my pants off.

Try Again Bragg
15-03-2008, 11:58
Novamarines and Marines Malevolent!

Goruax
15-03-2008, 16:12
A chapter is one particular form of organisation for SMs (and the most common form at that). but Chapters were invented after the HH and a chapter is defined by the CA. if you don't follow the CA your SM organisation is not a Chapter. it is a specific technical term, and not a word for any organisation that happens to involve SMs.

That is just plain wrong.
You do not have to follow the Codex Astartes to actually be a Chapter.
As has been said, Chapters are the formations of Space Marines post-Heresy.
This is not saying if it has 2 Space Marines, it is a Chapter, but that the hierarchy of a full 1000+ Space Marine Organisation (ie, only Space Marines and their support staff) is a Chapter.
By being Codex Divergent does not invalidate your being a Chapter.
It is indeed a technical term - a term for any full, seperate organisation of Space Marines.


that very, very few SM organisations actually follow the CA doesn't change the text of the book at all. they are, by its definition, not a Chapter.
After all the Chapter is defined by the Codex.

The Codex Astartes lays down basic tenets that are highly advised tactics, organisations, etc for Space Marines to follow. It does not state (that we know of) that any divergence invalidates a claim to being a Chapter, how you've come to that conclusion is beyond me.
A Chapter is defined by the Codex, but not in the way you seem to think. They are defined as Codex or Non-Codex, but not Chapter/Non-Chapter.


but when SM armies really overstep the mark and it can't just be covered up anymore, they will get kicked out of the Imperium for breaking the law.

You mean...renegades?
So what you're saying is that all Space Marines should be following the Codex Astartes and that all that don't are, or should be, excommunicated?
That's insipid, especially since the Codex was not formed as rules, but as guidelines. The simple fact that Chapters have almost complete autonomy to function and commit as they wish is surely evidence enough that there are no such laws or rules in place that they must follow the Codex Astartes.


the DW and GK in no way fit with anything that is considered transparency and do not follow any of the battlefield organisational requirements to mean they are following the CA and are thus a Chapter.

Erm...dispite the fact that 90% of all Chapters most definitely dislike interference in their affairs?
Off the top of my head, the Ultramarines are the most lax in their secrecy and even they get tetchy about some things.
The idea that the Space Marines operate 'transparently' is plain dumb, since there are more than enough prime examples. Take the Blood Ravens as one, or the Black Templars as another. Niether is exactly happy if anyone snoops around into their background.


having a gene-seed is nothing to do with being a Chapter and only about being a SM (Legionaires have gene-seed). eitherway, its difficult to discribe the GKs as having the 'purest' gene-seed whilst similataneously having a mutation that in other SM (the Thousand Sons for example) was considered to be bordering on heresy.[/QUOTE

And I actually said nothing aboud gene-seed=Chapter.
GK's do have, and have been stated as such, the purest form of gene-seed. Their candidates are selected, and usually have high psychic potential before they receive the gene-seed/progenoids.
The psychic mutation is personal, not from the gene-seed.

[QUOTE=admiraldick]:eyebrows: i'm not too sure what are you smoking. a Chapter is a form of organisation defined by the CA, which is why loyal SM have to follow the book.
its not a catch-all for any SM organisation.

You'll find that Chapters do not have to follow the book, or else, as I said before, there would be laws within the Imperium to stop divergent chapters.


i'm also not sure why you are deliberately misrepresenting what i said. i didn't say 'Non-Codex Chapters' were Chapters. in fact i didn't say that the term defined anything at all. it does not. i know nothing more about a SM organisation after you have told me that it is 'Non-Codex' than i did before you told me. the term Chapter on the other hand gives me quite a clear picture of what the organisation is.

You obviously have not heard of these fabled 'Non-Codex' Chapters :rolleyes:
Chapters refers to the basic, underlying structure of a Space Marine...Chapter.
The Codex reference is to do with their operating methods, be it the White Scars' fast strikes, or the Salamanders' preference of mid-range firefights. Both of them are 'Non-Codex' and subsequently have different structures which exemplify their operational methods.
By saying that 'Chapter' gives you a clear picture, shows that you don't know a huge deal about them, or so it seems.
The White Scars are immensely divergent from the Codex and have a vastly different structure when compared to the Ultramarines. They are both Chapters, but have greatly differing structures.


i call them Non-Codex Chapters out of politeness, rather than calling them rebels. just like i don't call people fat when that's what they are.

Rebels?
So any Space Marine who utilise an unorthodox method is instantly a rebel?
So when Logan Grimnar tried to prevent the Inquisition from killing the millions on Armageddon post-Angron, he's a rebel? Despite being one of the staunchest defenders of the Imperium?
Or when Corax and the Raven Guard use surgical raids and extreme stealth tactics, they are rebellious?
Your argument makes no sense.

Try Again Bragg
15-03-2008, 16:42
Hear hear, Goruax! :D

Chainsworded Codpiece
15-03-2008, 16:42
Admiral Dick, Goruax, et al:

Wonderful semantics-flogging. And no, I'm actually not being snide.

This back-and-forth is (very likely) the same sort of thing that goes on in the Inqusition Conclaves when they gather to speak about various things Space-Marine-ish. Since many are divided on the uses of Astartes, the relative piety/loyalty/trustworthiness of Astartes in general, and why the Astartes are given the freedoms they have (to venerate as they please, to answer the call of a Planetary Governor at their own discretion, et cetera), Inqusitors probably also wonder about the relative merits of the "Chapter" system.
Especially since it is supposed to be enforced, but in practice, not so much. And it WAS made specifically to curb the manpower (Marinepower?) of the Astartes, but only does that to a degree (Black Templars, and I'm sure, others, get around this).

S, if a bunch of =]I[= are sitting around, some of whom are utterly cool with the Spacer'inos, and some who are more adversarial, and they are talking about the makeup of the Chapters...then, it's going to come up: What the hell IS a Chapter? Does the word have any objective permanence, any lasting, absolute, definition?
And if so, how, by He Enthroned, are the damned Astartes being allowed so much leeway in screwing about with those definitions?

Anyhow, I'm going to use the arguments I've seen here as backdrop dialogue in my Dark Heresy game.

Awesome. Thanks.

Also: I should note, the term "Chapter" apparently WAS used by the Legions pre-Heresy.

It (IIRC) often described a unit of fighting men several Companies strong-something like what the Army/Guard would call a "Battalion", I believe.
However, the semantics are further complicated by the fact that some Legions called these "Great Companies" rather than Chapters (again, IIRC, double-check me on this, as I may be confusing terms).

I guess my point is, that even with all of the rigidity that Guilliman imposed, there are a lot of questions in everyone's mind as to WHAT is absolute and defined, and WHAT is subjective to the Chapter Commander/presumed edicts of the Primarch. And this is why the above arguments are fascinating to me. The fact that they occur at all proves that the Codex brings up as many questions as it answers.

sprugly
16-03-2008, 14:10
i just enjoy the way some people act as if they're actually read the Codex Astartes! As far as i know its never been published and therefore who the hell knows what it says about what defines a chapter. All i know is a chapter should be about 1000 strong so as to reduce the power any one man/marine can bring to bare.

We've all been calling these organisations chapters for a long long time, and maybe that is what defines what a chapter is. It is what we say it is.

On topic slightly more. My personal chapter is known as the black chapter. They have close ties to the Ordos Xenos and send marines to them regularly. Shoulder guard design attached. Its not very ornate but damn easy to paint! lol

sprugly

pookie
17-03-2008, 10:55
Ok, so the plans are being made, and this project will begin in about 2-3 weeks, enough time to pay off bills, buy a digital camera, and obtain the required funds to start purchases.

Any requests for chapters to be included in the army? I have (not including the command squad) 100 shoulder pads to paint and put symbols on. Feel free to mention your own personal army, just provide the colour scheme.

First in, first served basis.

Black Templars.

OT - Regardless of the debate about what a "chapter" is, i still think (in the context you mentioned ) that its a term used by someone who observed a SM Drop, and knew enough to know that a Conventional SM Army is AKA a SM Chapter.

Hence, the person made an incorrect statement as the DW are Kill teams formed from various SM Chapters ( Both Codex and non Codex ), but as there will be a 1000 DW Marines (if not more ) spread throught the Imperium i see no problem with what you have planned.

Mankov
17-03-2008, 12:26
Ok, so the plans are being made, and this project will begin in about 2-3 weeks, enough time to pay off bills, buy a digital camera, and obtain the required funds to start purchases.

Any requests for chapters to be included in the army? I have (not including the command squad) 100 shoulder pads to paint and put symbols on. Feel free to mention your own personal army, just provide the colour scheme.

First in, first served basis.

The possibilities are endless. If you have access to the Space Marine Collector's Guide, you could take a look at a lot of chapters and simply pick those you like best. Or browse a little bit on www.lexicanum.com.

five01st
17-03-2008, 13:22
It was mentioned that the DW only take SM from strict CA adherants, like the smurfs, Crimson Fists, and Imperial Fists. Because each marine is trained in squads with marines from other chapters, they need a strict base guideline to which all have the same knowledge, eg. the Codex Astartes.

Try Again Bragg
17-03-2008, 14:02
No, the DW do not only take marines from Codex Chapters. They can request marines from any chapter that the Ordo Xenos want. Now the Inquisition's relationship with certain chapters may cause them not to request marines from them and the Chapter's beliefs may cause them to refuse the Inquisition's request.

You can have Deathwatch marines from any chapter, but I would say that you are more likely to see Ultramarines and Imperial Fists than you are Iron Hands or Space Wolves.

pookie
17-03-2008, 14:08
No, the DW do not only take marines from Codex Chapters. They can request marines from any chapter that the Ordo Xenos want. Now the Inquisition's relationship with certain chapters may cause them not to request marines from them and the Chapter's beliefs may cause them to refuse the Inquisition's request.

You can have Deathwatch marines from any chapter, but I would say that you are more likely to see Ultramarines and Imperial Fists than you are Iron Hands or Space Wolves.

i dont see it like that, its down to who can provide the Marines with Experiance in fighting a particular Xenos threat, its assumed all chapters would be able to, but it would be down to combat experiance imo.

So you have an equal chance if your from the UM/IF or SW/IH ( to use your examples )

Try Again Bragg
17-03-2008, 14:12
I don't understand, Pookie. Are you and I agreeing or not?

AmKhaibitu
17-03-2008, 14:30
It's really quite simple, it's another error by Mr. Abnett in terms of details.
He's done it before, he'll do it again. Take his details with a grain of salt and move on.

Try Again Bragg
17-03-2008, 14:48
It's not a mistake if, like me, you don't think that there is anything wrong with referring to the Deathwatch as a Chapter.

AmKhaibitu
17-03-2008, 14:59
Then what founding are they from?
Even the Grey Knights have a founding.

The Death Watch are simply an organisation based on need made up from members of the various Chapters.

And just because you might like to refer to them as such, doesn't mean they are.
Can you cite any evidence other than any books by that author that they are indeed a chapter?

Lord Inquisitor
17-03-2008, 15:03
What was an error? That they're a Chapter? Don't blame him, they're called that in the Inquisitor rulebook. Bah, semantics. Any modern discrete army of loyalist Space Marines is called a Chapter. That term doesn't imply Codex adherence. As for founding, the Deathwatch had a founding. They were created at some point. Yes, they're unlike any other Chapter and they do not have their own gene-seed. That just makes them a special sort of Chapter. This argument is pointless and circular. They're referred to as the "Deathwatch Chapter". Whether you choose to accept that is entirely up to you.

The Deathwatch do recruit from any Chapter, including non-codex Chapters like the Blood Angels and the Space Wolves. There's a picture of a Space Wolf in the Deathwatch Index Astartes page for starters. But any Marines from the more wacky Chapters will be atypical for their Chapter - they're not going to send a Blood Angel likely to succumb to the Red Thirst and Space Wolves in the Deathwatch are going to be as disciplined as any other Deathwatch Marine.

pookie
17-03-2008, 15:08
I don't understand, Pookie. Are you and I agreeing or not?

erm, im not sure now :D

for me (at least) being a member of the DW is about what experiance that Chapter/Marine has in fighting the proposed Xenos threat, more than to what 'type' of chapter a marine is from. ( example: a SW can fight a nid as well as a UM, but it would depend on who of the two had the most experiance in fighting them ).

so i think i disagreed :p

because you felt that there was more chance of a Um as opposed to a SW?

all the known fluff ive read ( which isnt much ) has a Kill Team, with quite a wide range of members, from a SW to a WS and some of the more obscure chapters, but certainly not just from 'strict' Codex chapters.

Try Again Bragg
17-03-2008, 15:21
@AmKhaibitu: Why do you have to have a founding to be a Chapter? Why can't any organization of space marines that does not already have another title be called a Chapter?


@Pookie: While a Deathwatch marine can come from any chapter, I think that certain chapters are more likely than others to get requests from the Ordo Xenos and to fulfill those requests.

Taipan
17-03-2008, 15:34
Why is this a thread?

Golden Rule; Black Library is to be totally ignored when it comes to the Deathwatch. Goto et al make up so much of their own fluff and bastardise the canon it's not worth the effort trying to decipher their meaning.

The Deathwatch is the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Xenos. They are Marines hand-picked by each loyalist Chapter for service (every loyalist Chapter has to send a tithe of battle-brothers as part of their relationship with the Inquisition). They are not a Chapter; they have no Primarch, no founding Legion, no homeworld, no fleet (except ships requisitioned by the Inquisition) and none of the resources a Chapter can call upon (support staff, Librarium etc).

2. The Deathwatch is a completely non-Codex organisation; think of it as a 'pool' of highly-trained alienhunters which the Ordo Xenos can draw upon for observation, recovery of alien artifacts and surgical strikes. They get Astartes but without the usual stand-off that accompanies asking Chapters.

The word 'Chapter' does matter, because it refers to a specific formation within the Adeptus Astartes. Using it in the wrong context confuses people, and then you get a million threads about "who is the Primarch of the Deathwatch?".

pookie
17-03-2008, 15:49
Why is this a thread?

Golden Rule; Black Library is to be totally ignored when it comes to the Deathwatch. Goto et al make up so much of their own fluff and bastardise the canon it's not worth the effort trying to decipher their meaning.

GW have said that BL stuff is canon im afraid, wether we/you/us like that or not doesnt change it, its Canon, end of.


The Deathwatch is the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Xenos. They are Marines hand-picked by each loyalist Chapter for service (every loyalist Chapter has to send a tithe of battle-brothers as part of their relationship with the Inquisition). They are not a Chapter; they have no Primarch, no founding Legion, no homeworld, no fleet (except ships requisitioned by the Inquisition) and none of the resources a Chapter can call upon (support staff, Librarium etc).

Never heard that they have to send members, Source please?


2. The Deathwatch is a completely non-Codex organisation; think of it as a 'pool' of highly-trained alienhunters which the Ordo Xenos can draw upon for observation, recovery of alien artifacts and surgical strikes. They get Astartes but without the usual stand-off that accompanies asking Chapters.

agreed.


The word 'Chapter' does matter, because it refers to a specific formation within the Adeptus Astartes. Using it in the wrong context confuses people, and then you get a million threads about "who is the Primarch of the Deathwatch?".

but i still feel that in the context it was being used ( ie the novel, and who says it ) that the person thinks its a SM Chapter, they probably dont even realise that its the DW, which WE (ie gamers) all know is a diffrent organisation to Codex and non Codex Chapters.

its the POV of the person in the story, (and shouldnt be accepted as Canon, that the DW are a chapter), just a mistake by the character in the book, which is reasonable, considering the Inq is basicaly a secret within a secret.

Lord Inquisitor
17-03-2008, 15:51
The Deathwatch is the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Xenos. They are Marines hand-picked by each loyalist Chapter for service (every loyalist Chapter has to send a tithe of battle-brothers as part of their relationship with the Inquisition). They are not a Chapter; they have no Primarch, no founding Legion, no homeworld, no fleet (except ships requisitioned by the Inquisition) and none of the resources a Chapter can call upon (support staff, Librarium etc).
Not every Chapter need submit Marines to the Deathwatch. Yes, they do not have a single gene-seed nor a single Primarch - but then there are plenty of Chapters out there with mixed gene-seed who do not come from a single line, nor even know what their lineage is. Equally there are Chapters with no homeworld. None of these things are definitive of a Chapter.

Who says they have no assets? The Deathwatch must have Warp-capable craft, almost certainly Strike Cruisers (whether these are nominally Ordo Xenos Strike Cruisers or Deathwatch Strike Cruisers is largely irrelevant). They have rhinos and drop pods. They must have support staff to crew their spacecraft, maintain their vehicles, etc. The Deathwatch have a large number of Librarians, and presumably maintain Libraria, either independently or in conjunction with the Ordo Xenos.

While the Deathwatch frequently operate in small numbers, the Chapter must have considerable infrastructure to maintain these forces.


The word 'Chapter' does matter, because it refers to a specific formation within the Adeptus Astartes. Using it in the wrong context confuses people, and then you get a million threads about "who is the Primarch of the Deathwatch?".
They're an independent army of Space Marines. How does calling them a "Chapter" confuse people? Anyone confused about the Grey Knights being a "Chapter"? Who's the primarch of the Excorcists then? I'm confused :cries: