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View Full Version : was GW wise to not support vets poll



donuter
14-03-2008, 22:51
with all the views i thought it best to chart it

Chaos and Evil
15-03-2008, 00:08
What a surprise, a forum filled with 'vets' votes no. :p

Lost_Heretic
15-03-2008, 03:18
I'm impartial because, really, I don't think they really ever did support Vets in the first place. I've been playing for nearly ten years and I believe that most Vets have just outgrown the usefulness of what Games Workshop has always provided.

Chaos and Evil
15-03-2008, 11:04
Lost_Heretic has it in one, IMHO.

GW's main support for Vets was the Specialist Games range... but most Vets don't want to change to playing SG's, they'd rather carry on playing games that they invested in when they were younger, or quit altogether.

Thus, Specialist Games was closed down, and GW stopped (Directly) supporting Vets.

Exterminatus
15-03-2008, 11:55
GW is a company. THey can do whatever they want... If McDonalds closes a store, it's up to them. If they open 6 more stores in my town, it's up to them. If GW decides to focus more attention on the younger crowd, it is up to them.

Really, they are a profit making company. As soon as they don't make any profit, or profits dwindles, they will make organisational changes. This can include to stop supporting vets. It's all up to them. I'm fairly impartial here as you can see :D

Mad Doc Grotsnik
15-03-2008, 12:09
And I'd also like to point out whether they need to support Veterans, what quantifies a Veteran from a Long Term Gamer, and if they have indeed stopped supporting Veterans are still very much matters of debate as far as I am concerned.

Can someone utterly dependant on GW really claim to be a Veteran Gamer?

NastyNymph
15-03-2008, 15:00
How do you mean by supported?, how does Games workshop support one type of gamer over another?, surely there all the same importance wise

if a veteran walks into a store and spends 50 on stuff or plays a game of 40k, and a begginer does the same, how is GW NOT supporting the veteran equally?

I just don't get your question

Mad Doc Grotsnik
15-03-2008, 15:16
Well, there are those who believe that GW owe them something.

Exactly why I'll never understand myself.

NastyNymph
15-03-2008, 15:20
Well, there are those who believe that GW owe them something.

Exactly why I'll never understand myself.
well they do owe us ALL something, begginer and veteran alike, and that is a Good rule system :p
but thats not gonna happen even in my lifetime:D

Tyron
15-03-2008, 16:49
I voted "impartial". Regardless of them supporting us or not we still play their games despite the moaning. We're also able to adapt to other systems, failing that we have enough experience to walter said systems to our taste.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
15-03-2008, 17:08
well they do owe us ALL something, begginer and veteran alike, and that is a Good rule system :p
but thats not gonna happen even in my lifetime:D

Then try a bit of Fantasy. Much better rule set than 40k!

Chaos and Evil
15-03-2008, 17:59
Then try a bit of Fantasy. Much better rule set than 40k!

Or Epic! Better than both! :D

Patriarch
15-03-2008, 19:56
Oh terrific! I vote "yes" when I meant "no"! :mad:

That's what I get for trying to vote with a 3-year-old bouncing on my knee! sigh...must be Rottwieler's disease...:rolleyes:

Anyway, "was GW wise to stop supporting vets" is an entirely different question to "does GW owe vets something?".

You might as well ask "does WHSmith owe its customers anything?" or "does ASDA/WalMart owe its customers anything?".

Though I think it says quite a lot about a retail company when its customer seriously ask the question.


Or Epic! Better than both! :D

OK, I vote for that!

NastyNymph
15-03-2008, 22:11
Then try a bit of Fantasy. Much better rule set than 40k!
meh I find Fantasy aimed more at powergamers than casual gaming, its not much fun fighting someone with 6000 power dice per magic phase:p

donuter
15-03-2008, 22:15
what and 40k is not for power gamers, fantasy just requires more tactical thinking (in some sceanarios especialy)

NastyNymph
15-03-2008, 22:18
what and 40k is not for power gamers, fantasy just requires more tactical thinking (in some sceanarios especialy)
Nah 40k isn't for powergamers, its for gamers that have a phobia to tactics:p
Fantasy don't require that much thinking from my experience, 2000pts of empire VS a 900pts unit of chosen Khorne knights and Lord = dead Empire ARMY, and no knights dead:rolleyes:

donuter
15-03-2008, 22:21
i know but thats just being beardy and naf, and people who collec those armies just don't get played

kris.sherriff
16-03-2008, 19:50
I was looking for the poll option that says that the do support vets but I can't seem to find it?

Kris

VetSgtNamaan
16-03-2008, 20:42
While I agree that they certain deserve to give us decent rules, but they do not owe us much of anything. I have to say much like the music industry woes if all you make is crap expect sales to fall. A simple cause and effect of business. I think they are doing what they thing is required to save thier company regardless of how inefficiently I think they are going about it.

I would have liked them to make certain older models still availible but honestly I already have purschased the models I really wanted as opposed to the classic range stuff I think would be nice to have. But I am the only one of my friends that actually likes the old stuff most of the time they aremore than happy to give me what they term thier crap so they can make room for the more modern version.

intellectawe
17-03-2008, 04:19
what and 40k is not for power gamers, fantasy just requires more tactical thinking (in some sceanarios especialy)

Oh! You mean all those scenarios that Fantasy has right in the main rule book?

Yeah... they don't even come close to the 40k ones at all :rolleyes: :wtf:

...

Fantasy is power gaming for older players, 40k is power gaming for all players.

NecroNurgle
17-03-2008, 05:41
Nah 40k isn't for powergamers, its for gamers that have a phobia to tactics:p
Fantasy don't require that much thinking from my experience, 2000pts of empire VS a 900pts unit of chosen Khorne knights and Lord = dead Empire ARMY, and no knights dead:rolleyes:

This irony right? This is a case where you have to use tactics or it's impossible to win.

Chaos and Evil
17-03-2008, 10:33
40k is chock-full of strategy... it has almost no tactics.

Osbad
17-03-2008, 11:07
Lost_Heretic has it in one, IMHO.

GW's main support for Vets was the Specialist Games range... but most Vets don't want to change to playing SG's, they'd rather carry on playing games that they invested in when they were younger, or quit altogether.

Thus, Specialist Games was closed down, and GW stopped (Directly) supporting Vets.


Which totally ignores what happened to White Dwarf. Pre-2006 this was often included much stuff of interest to "vets", or for want of a better expression "people who had played the game for a couple of years and were past the age of puberty". Stuff like terrain-making information, whacky army lists, battle reports that were between tournament "names", readers armies paint jobs, etc. From issue 316 it became totally focussed on pimping the latest release and also telling n00bs what to do with their new stuff.

WD did not always used to be like it is now, so your analysis fails right there, period.

There is much discussion of the specifics of WD elsewhere so I won't derail this thread into a harangue against WD, other than to say that I don't believe older players ask for "much" support, but they do still need inspiration from time to time. WD used to supply that "spark" every now and again. Without a magazine at least throwing the odd bone to older players, then that spark flikers and fails all to often.

It is interesting to note that the March 08 issue was actually a slight change in direction for WD, back towards the older style of content. This proved massively popular here on Warseer. Will this inspire some of us to get more involved in GW again...? Possibly.

Personally I would see this change in tack at WD as a tacit admission that WD was heading down the wrong track in focussing solely on those who knew little or nothing about the GW games as it had been doing hitherto.

Chris_Tzeentch
17-03-2008, 13:01
If a company doesnt provide what its customers want, they will go elsewhere. Look at GW financials - I rest my case. Look at the increasing number of alternatives too - Warmachine, Hordes, Babylon 5, Wargods of Egyptus, Helldorado, AT-43, Confrontation, Infinity, LoTOW, LOTHS, Flames of War etc etc.

bringerofdecay
17-03-2008, 14:34
voted 'no'

dispite what people might think, despite what games workshop's finacial reports tell them we vets DO have the most expendable money, we just spend it at places that aren't games workshop because of the crap treatment we recieve from them.

if games workshop treated us the way they used to (by gamers, for gamers) then i'm sure they'd be seeing growth right now, instead of decline. for the most part we are the ones with jobs, we are the ones who have now got children to steer towards hobbies and buy things for (and i'm certain a fair few are steering their cildren AWAY from gamesworkshop, due to te horrible business practise they have adopted in the last few years). we are the ones with cash to burn on a hobby and have basically been given the finger.

you can whinge all you want about *new* hobbyists and how much money they pry out their parents hands for the daemon that is now GW, but they soon fall away, 400 over a couple of months is nothing compared to what each and every veteran will spend in a lifetime, and GW need to realise this before it's too late (or rather GW's investors need to realise this).

/rant

Osbad
17-03-2008, 15:10
voted 'no'

[SNIP]

you can whinge all you want about *new* hobbyists and how much money they pry out their parents hands for the daemon that is now GW, but they soon fall away, 400 over a couple of months is nothing compared to what each and every veteran will spend in a lifetime, and GW need to realise this before it's too late (or rather GW's investors need to realise this).

/rant

QFT!

Yeah. I'd love to see what the maths is for the comparison of the "short term" gamers' purchases over the years compared to the "long term" gamers' purchases. Sure those statistics don't exist. But if every year instead of slipping them the finger and shrugging their shoulders saying "they're in the wrong hobby", GW retained an extra 1 or 2% (or whatever) of their outgoing gamers, and then the next year they retained another 1 or 2%, and then the year after that and the year after that, then a part of me believes that they would have been looking at increasing turnover, not decreasing.

And also for the staff involved, wouldn't it be so much of a better place to work if it hand some credibility rather than being (as it is now) the "company that produces games that everyone cut their teeth on but grew out of"?

Although, at least their current "grimdark" art aesthetic is a little more "mature" and appealing than the grotesque orange "WAAAAARGH" crud they peddled in the '90's... :D

bringerofdecay
17-03-2008, 15:26
QFT!

Although, at least their current "grimdark" art aesthetic is a little more "mature" and appealing than the grotesque orange "WAAAAARGH" crud they peddled in the '90's... :D

indeed, i like the daemon style art we're seeing, bit redish, but much better than the happy fairy art of yore :D



and to the people going on about how 'veterans' shouldn't need support or handholding, my answer is: No, we shouldn't, we are quite capable of making house rules, playing in our own gaming groups, being shunned from the rest of the general populus of GW because of our freakishly heretical view that the 3 core games AREN'T the only GW games still in production (although the SG's are slowly being culled out of existance). but it would be nice if we had the occasional model release, or hadn't had inquisitor bitz packs removed to make space in the warehouse (read: whorehouse) for more space marines (read: space whores). it would have been nice if the BoFA hadn't had its range stripped back to just the original box set, would have been good if people wanting to play mord/necro didn't have to worry about getting CRAP models in the random box of 8 etc etc etc

but heh ho, we're all supported very well by the games workshop catologue...sorry, white dwarf, and after all, we get a whole night a wekk we can go down and hope and pray the tables aren't controlled by the ludites who think 40k is the be all and end all

Foolish Mortal
18-03-2008, 16:13
Personally I would see this change in tack at WD as a tacit admission that WD was heading down the wrong track in focussing solely on those who knew little or nothing about the GW games as it had been doing hitherto.


This says it all for me.

I would imagine any other company in the world would love to have a loyal/regular fanbase willing to hurl (in some cases) large amounts of cash at them regularly year after year.........but not, it seems GW.

Don't get me wrong I don't thing GW should concentrate on vets above all else, I just don't think they should forget about us and conentrate on noobs either - surely they can find a happy medium where everyone gets a little of that GW lovin'!!!!

As for WD - I could imagine this is really a great leveller - everyone hates it at the moment!!! Sure the last couple of issues were better than the usual c**pfest, but the WD team need to realise that even todays 11 - 14 year olds (GW supposed target market) probably find the magazine......embarrasing - I mean an editorial & comments by a pretend dwarf and the over the top usage of "cool" and "awesome" - c'mon guys credit them with a little more intelligence than that!!

Mojaco
18-03-2008, 17:50
Apocalypse was for veterans, but marketed for youngsters (so you get both). And old veteran favourites are making a come-back, like Shokk Attack gun, Weirdboys, Harlequins and tons of Apoc sheets.

The problem is most veteran see WD as GW's main line of communication, and WD is very much beginner centred (though improving imo). Stores are also full of youngsters, but again understandably so.

Only thing I truelly hate are the new bitz-packs, and the old bitz were real veteran schtuff. I can see where GW is coming from with this move, but this one is likely going to bite them in the ass.

Anyway, I didn't vote as the poll is extremely biased.

Kovaks
18-03-2008, 18:49
If I may throw in my two cents: I worked at Head office for three years and was part of many of the meetings that decided product and promotional direction from 2003-2006 (though I was not an executive and was there to represent trade sales). The reasoning for the changes is pretty varied and there was no single consensus but a modified approach was taken. It was decided to close specialist games because, plain and simple, it was a money sink, every dollar of sales cost three dollars in development, distribution and promotion. Many argued that specialist could be saved with changes but rightly or wrongly it was finally decided that it should be abandoned so that the resources of specialist could be put into the three main line games. The veteran support was to be in several stages, with Forge World and the Hall of Heroes tournaments being the first stage and cities of death, apocalypse and planetstrike being the second. The third I am not privy too as I left GW before this was revealed. The marketing research that had been done in the UK and Northern Europe by a private market research firm (the name escapes me) suggested that the majority of hobbyists spent an average of 18 months in the hobby and that was it, during that 18 months they spent an average of $380.00 US and most of that spending was done between months 3 and 8. Meaning that many people do most of their buying over five months (which would be consistent with a new player buying a core set and then painting an army). The goal then became how to stretch that retention out from 18 months to several years in an effort to turn someone who is not a died in the wool hobbyist into someone who would enjoy the hobby for many years to come (interestingly increasing yield from each customer was not the goal of retention, it was actually the idea that the longer a person is in the hobby the more new people they will introduce to it). The first step in increasing retention was the foundation paint line which was meant as a way for new hobbyists to easily paint their army, ironically it was not put out to just make a few more bucks but the research indicated that a new player not painting their army was a big reason that many left the hobby as they were most frustrated by the painting aspect and not the gaming aspect. So a huge painting push was launched in 2005 in an effort to get retail and independent stores to really push their staff to help new players paint their armies so that they had a stronger sense of ownership of their army and would hopefully help them stay in the hobby longer. The program really fell down on the independent retailer end (my neck of the business) as many of the independents either did not want to use their time running painting classes (though some did and they saw their retention and sales increase). I personally saw out of my 98 customers at the time only six actually ran the painting clinics (the paints, minis and brushes were given to them for free by the trade department) while twenty said they would, advertised it but didn't run it and I ended up with a heck of a lot of calls from angry parents and customers as to why the scheduled, advertised events didn't run. Ok, got a bit off track but this was the groundwork for the plans for the veterans. So once people had a painted army they needed something to do with that army so regular game nights, mega battles and the like was planned, giving people a reason to have painted figs, finally the tournament season was pushed for people who may not necessarily be veterans but who wanted to do more than just have the odd game or mega battle. By the end of 2006 we could see that veterans who participated in the tournament circuit were the distinct minority, in fact I saw many of the same faces at all the tournaments I helped run in my customers stores. So that is when the idea of Apocalypse was hatched in an effort to give veterans new, fun things to do with their models that wasn't a mega battle or tournament. That is where I left GW to pursue a lucrative job elsewhere but my understanding when I left was that big changes for veterans were coming, there was a promotions post set up in the office that was entirely dedicated to developing product and events for veterans as well GW reaching out to veteran groups (clubs are far better at taking care of veterans than a GW retail store filled with 15 year olds) and myself and the other trade managers reached out and ran events at many non-GW wargame conventions and made a lot of friends and contacts there. I don't claim that the best job was done but a good effort was made and I worked a lot of overtime to help push the veteran plan as much as possible. A big thing to consider as well is Warhammer historical, I know that it's tough to find but John Stallard and co. put together some absolutely incredible books with great rules and army lists, just a thought. So there you have it, some behind the scenes workings and some reasons, not everyone will be satisfied but I hope it helps give a look into the processes behind the decisions.

Mojaco
18-03-2008, 18:58
Thanks for a bit of insight. Seems like good decision making on GWs part. Nothing about the bitz though, but it's probably the exact same as SG.

donuter
18-03-2008, 19:03
intresting, very intresting, but what actully are you saying, we will be supported more soon?

Chaos and Evil
18-03-2008, 19:05
Thanks for your words Kovaks, looks like you've confirmed almost everything I've said during this discussion. :)

donuter
18-03-2008, 19:09
i hate it when chaos and evil is prooved right, oh my hat off to you.

Kovaks
18-03-2008, 19:13
Thanks for a bit of insight. Seems like good decision making on GWs part. Nothing about the bitz though, but it's probably the exact same as SG.

My understanding of the bitz plan was that the whole bitz program was getting reworked. The bitz packs were only intended to be temporary while the new system is put into place. The big problem was that 80% of all bit orders were from GW staff (I in fact saw several 300 line bit orders from 'ordinary' red shirts) and this was creating a serious backlog. I do believe that we will be seeing bitz come back like they were before, but with a new system on their end to make things faster and more efficient.

Yes Donuter, if they continue with the plans that were laid in June 2007 then there will be more and more products for veterans along with more veteran events and FAR more support for gaming clubs, but it will take a while as GW mfg plans production 18-24 mo. in advance so any products that were created after June 2007 will take until the end of this year or beginning of next year to actually make it to market.

donuter
18-03-2008, 19:16
cheers for the update, i was unsure

Wolf Scout Ewan
18-03-2008, 19:44
IMHO veteran gamers and long term hobbyists are not that different.

From my own experience (reading threads on warseer and its predecessor, talking to others in clubs or in other places on the net) I think Long Term Gamers and Vets want continuing support for exisiting armies, continuous and developing background, nice new things to add to thier armies that isnt something that belongs to another army or game.

Recently all we have seen is the same cdoecii/army books and slightly rewritten rules. This is great for new players but it doesnt take the hobby anywhere. Its just a familiar cycle of the favourite armies from previous editions getting new stuff and the things requiring updates (for vets) being pushed back.

We do not need a new Codex Space Marines, we need books for armies not updated in 5 + years. We dont need a rules update, we need army books for races not updated in 5+ years.

Not everyone has access to a gaming club or network in the same way as not everyone wants to play in a GW store. Vets and LTG (long term gamers) are adults who can organise themselves, however, not everyone lives in an area with access to a club. Thats where the GW stores come in to bring gamers together in order for them to build networks. This is what GW needs to start doing.

They have a bloody good webpage with all the information one could need for products and stores but no systems in plkace to bring people together.

Tournaments? I really couldnt give a rats **** about tournaments. Most of the people I play with want to get together and have fun playing a GW game.These people (I play with) do not need a store they just need products to complete armies and a place to play them. Do veteran gamers actually need GW to organise Tournies for them? Not if they can organise a gaming club/group.

That was why veteran nights worked, they brought people together to game in a place with GW stuff to buy. When I worked in a gw store we often took more on a games night than a daytime.

EarthAndAllStars
18-03-2008, 19:56
Did I miss the memo, or when did GW put out a statement saying: "Get lost veterans!"

The changes to WD are not an indication that GW is abandoning veterans, but more likely a change to try to make the magazine better support sales.

As for veterans dropping piles of cash every year into GWs pockets, I know I don't. I've been playing for years, and the longer I play the more I look for ebay bargains, deals, sales, and reworking what I already own. Instead of buying a new army, I tend to slowly and as cheap as possible add to my current army. If one is patient, ebay will deliver almost everything you need at a fraction of the retail price. It's the new guys that don't know what works well and what doesn't and they overbuy and under use.

Jim
18-03-2008, 20:07
This poll is broken...there is no option for 'I think GW supports me as an 18 year veteren of the hobby just fine thank you very much'

Kovaks comments were very interesting to read and just about excuse this threads existence.

Grumpy Jim

Kovaks
18-03-2008, 20:11
Tournaments? I really couldnt give a rats **** about tournaments. Most of the people I play with want to get together and have fun playing a GW game.These people (I play with) do not need a store they just need products to complete armies and a place to play them. Do veteran gamers actually need GW to organise Tournies for them? Not if they can organise a gaming club/group.


This is precisely what we learnt in our experience. From a product standpoint things like the 40k basing set and the different dice sets were the first, tentative steps for more veteran-oriented products. Not to say that they appeal to all veterans but it's a start. As for the codex projects the production schedules are actually determined not by what needs reworking or what will make the most money but, funnily enough they are determined by what codex a writer wants to do. Not the best way I know but the studio kind of floated a bit for a couple of years after Andy Chambers left, but in the last year or so they got organized and laid down a multi-year plan so we should see those poor, abused armies redone. BTW: people keep talking about new marines and new 5th edition, I left GW in June of 2007 and saw the final marketing meeting for the quarter with the release schedule up until the end of '09 and there was no 5th ed. In fact many of the codex and army books that were needing a remake were on there as were a few surprises but no new marines, no new edition, the only new 40k core item was a new Macragge starter set with foundation paints and a brush in it and that's all, and since the mfg division is booked 18-24 mo in advance I really can't see how they would have changed the release schedule so drastically. I feel that GW understands that some veterans feel cut out and they are working on products for them too, but it will take time.

Mojaco
18-03-2008, 20:24
Recently all we have seen is the same cdoecii/army books and slightly rewritten rules. This is great for new players but it doesnt take the hobby anywhere. Its just a familiar cycle of the favourite armies from previous editions getting new stuff and the things requiring updates (for vets) being pushed back.
I don't full agree. I think SM do need more updates as if the balance on that army is off, then half your battles are unbalanced. Dark Eldar I do find cool, but haven't played them in the past 3 years. SMs however I play regulary.

Guard need work the most from an "age of codex and relative importance" point of view, but GW have given them a lot of love imo with the vostroyans (another very veteran orientated release).

kishvier
18-03-2008, 20:32
The marines are GW's baby, which is why they are so good. They should be updated half as much but they are the most popular army. GW favors some armies and neglects others.

Patriarch
18-03-2008, 21:09
Thanks for posting, Kovacs. That was a very interesting insight.

That SGs didn't/doesn't make money is no surprise. The surprise is that GW didn't seriously bother to promote or market SG having put the investment into the games in the first place. Most of the hard work had already been done when the games were big the first time round.

Wolf Scout Ewan
18-03-2008, 21:14
[QUOTE=Mojaco;2449385] Dark Eldar I do find cool, but haven't played them in the past 3 years. SMs however I play regulary. [QUOTE]

Thats exactly my point. There are very few holes in the SM line. Recent codex. The DE, Ordo Xenos or LatD dont have full codecii and big holes in the fig lineup.

We have everything we could possibly need for a marine army at the current time therefore they dont need an update. IMHO the balance is fine; if a little tilted towards Xenos or Chaos.

Therefore, releasing more stuff for marines or LotR is saturating the market, better to explore undeveloped areas like DE, Imp Guard or whatever to try and attract more income by variation. People will keep on buying the curent marine stuff even if they explore some other old codecii.

Marines are GW's cash cow but a rewritten codex so soon is criminal when other codecci havnt been updated since the 90's.

donuter
18-03-2008, 22:45
Dark Eldar I do find cool, but haven't played them in the past 3 years. SMS however I play regulary.

that may be because they haven't been updated (they only came out once) for so long and so nobody plays them. that said i understand how marines are the commen foe. try a non marine/necron tourney or campaign to get a tactical edge of AP 5. i thought it would be rubbish, but try it, it gives you a whole new look on 40K.

grickherder
19-03-2008, 04:39
Here's a profile of a big indie store in a newspaper:

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/calgarybusiness/story.html?id=1b992aaa-cc53-4eac-80f5-b74053441779&k=57178


His first task was to up the floor space to 450 square feet Sales doubled in the first year, and business has been solid since, through several moves. In its present location for 13 years, 90 per cent of Sentry Box's business is repeat customers. Annual revenue is about $1.2 million.

Churning and burning 12-15 year olds might work for GW in the UK and a good portion of Europe, but in North America, the vets and gamers of all ages in general are where the business is.

Osbad
19-03-2008, 10:03
Thanks for your words Kovaks, looks like you've confirmed almost everything I've said during this discussion. :)

I wouldn't go that far ;). Sure the "independent research" confirmed that a "majority" of hobbyists quit after a couple of years. But that isn't "99%" as you were steadfastly claiming! Last time I looked in a dictionary "Majority" just meant "over half", although I am willing to concede that in this case it probably means "considerably more than half". In any case, while I do not disparage this research as I have not read it, I would estimate that any sales to old farts is likely to be significantly underepresented in any research (unless that research is by interview at a gaming club) as most old farts, myself included, by new stuff online at a discount - and so are totally invisible to GW and its researchers, while most kids I know by in cash at the GW store so are very prominent to GW and its researchers. Whether the research company took account of this natural skewing of their results I don't know.

I do concede also that this confirms that Apoc is more deliberately vet-focussed than I supposed. At least in the story given to Kovac by the directors. Whether the directors saw this as its primary focussed, or just saw it as more politically expedient to explain it that way rather than outright admitting it was about pimping plastic Baneblades to kids, who knows? I'm just an old cynic though!

What is interesting (and news) to me from Kovaks' useful and informative post is that those "vets" that remained (and the new ones they wanted to create) were identified by GW as being crucial to the recruitment of n00bs and therefore the long term prosperity of the company. Clearly this is something that could not be the case if retention was a mere 1% of players. And it confirms the argument that however difficult it is to please the minority of grumbling old grognards it is still absolutely necessary for their business to survive. Vets "punch above their weight" saleswise, and however contradictory and 'ornery they are, GW igores them at their peril.

Of course this post confirms they weren't "ignoring" them totally, but it also confirms they were not necessarily addressing all their major concerns either. GW repeatedly sticks its collective fingers in its ears whenever issues of "game balance and playability" and "price" are mentioned! And I feel until those issues are realistically addressed, I can't see most "veterans" (or old farts, anyhow) conceding the point that their concerns have been addressed.

It also clearly demonstrates that GW were beginning to focus on retaining those hobbyists who liked what GW did already, but couldn't paint their armies or got bored with straight 1500 point meat grinders. But there is nothing in there to suggest that they even registered the possibility that "vets" were quitting GW because of the clunky gameplay of 40k or the relatively high cost of developing a GW army compared to many of their competitors' (that old "ho hum I'm bored playing Space Marines now, I could build a Tau army or I could try out Warmachine...." decision)

See, I can also claim that Kovaks post validates nearly everything I said too... ;)

Mojaco
19-03-2008, 11:26
I said apoc was veteran centred. So kovak validated my comment too :D

Codsticker
19-03-2008, 14:32
I voted impartial. Why? Because I never really felt "supported" by GW before. In fact, as a vet and an adult, I don't feel I need to be supported.

Zink
19-03-2008, 16:42
Grickherder, I've talked to Gord at the sentry box a couple of times. Seems like a great guy and he's given me advice on games and on trying to run a small business. I'm gearing up to run a small mailorder gaming business. He is definitely a person that I respect and listen too. Which sadly isn't something that I can say about GW. The local GW guys(when we still had a local GW) we're pretty good but even they couldn't swallow a lot of what GW was saying and doing. The Sentry Box is one impressive store when you see it in person.

grickherder
19-03-2008, 19:30
Grickherder, I've talked to Gord at the sentry box a couple of times. Seems like a great guy and he's given me advice on games and on trying to run a small business. I'm gearing up to run a small mailorder gaming business. He is definitely a person that I respect and listen too. Which sadly isn't something that I can say about GW. The local GW guys(when we still had a local GW) we're pretty good but even they couldn't swallow a lot of what GW was saying and doing. The Sentry Box is one impressive store when you see it in person.

Turning a 250 sqaure foot location into the largest store in the country grossing over a million? Yeah, I'd listen to that guy too when it comes to running a gaming store.

Definitely send me a PM when you get your mail order business going. Actually, I'd be interested in hearing the type of thing you've been thinking of doing. My favorite online store (Dark Basement) closed their doors (I think it was an expansion in the family that demanded time or something) and I'm always interested in what other people are doing with selling online.

I've had conversations with local redshirts. When they're the only one in the store and someone's going to make a big purchase, he tells them about how much you can save ordering from the US. Hilarious. He was also the guy who boosted Warmachine enough that I decided to get into it. I remember one quote about the prices; "When a customer asks me how come our prices haven't gone down even though the dollar's at par, I tell them because the higher ups at GW Canada think you're dumb enough to keep paying them. They don't pay me enough to lie to you for them." Somehow I don't think he's the type who has a long career at GW ahead of him :D

As for the topic at hand, one of the things that has helped hide what's really going on with GW was the influx of Lord of the Rings money and another was the massive price hikes. Both of these things hid a decline in unit sales. Now obviously, if you can lower unit sales but increase profitability, you do it, but what GW has done is lowered unit sales and lowered profitability.

If you take the typical squad/regiment box as an average unit sold, depending on the country, you'll have unit sales declining at up to 30% in the last five years. And this is not counting LOTR (GW's investor relations will tell you the amount of revenue that was LOTR if you email them, it's not in their annual report).

So number of gamers x units sold per gamer = 100% of their sales of non-LOTR stuff
So either the number of gamers or the units bought per gamer have declined such to equal 70% in some places.

So either everyone is still buying the same amount and they have lost 30% of their gamers, everyone is still around but buying 30% less or somewhere in between.

So is the "Games Workshop Hobby" shrinking or growing? I think everyone will admit that LOTR is declining and if you remove the LOTR portion from GW's gross revenues (based on information provided by investor relations) and arrive at an average unit cost factoring the price increases, you have a massive reduction in some combination of the number of players and the amount each of those dwindling number of players is buying.

Ouch.

How Ouch? Closed 30 stores and laid off 10%+ of the staff just to break even. Failing at their stated goals to their investors of providing a regular dividend and capital appreciation through increased revenue and profitability. That's a lot of ouch. Even the mighty apocalypse/baneblade rush going into Christmas made for a lackluster showing.

Businesses that grow are the ones that form a bastion of repeat business while adding new customers. This creates a compounding effect in the demand for their product. GW isn't doing this, GW isn't growing.

Was GW wise not to support the vets?

donuter
19-03-2008, 21:13
so in comparison how are other major store doing and how did they reach that point?

weareinalotoftroublebeale
20-03-2008, 00:18
I hope those that matter is GW are taking account of this poll with their share price around 1.83 british sterling and their desperate acts with the 25th Warhammer b-day they better listen. Or Succumb to a very slow and sad painful death.

Osbad
20-03-2008, 10:13
So number of gamers x units sold per gamer = 100% of their sales of non-LOTR stuff
So either the number of gamers or the units bought per gamer have declined such to equal 70% in some places.

So either everyone is still buying the same amount and they have lost 30% of their gamers, everyone is still around but buying 30% less or somewhere in between.

So is the "Games Workshop Hobby" shrinking or growing? I think everyone will admit that LOTR is declining and if you remove the LOTR portion from GW's gross revenues (based on information provided by investor relations) and arrive at an average unit cost factoring the price increases, you have a massive reduction in some combination of the number of players and the amount each of those dwindling number of players is buying.

[snip]

Was GW wise not to support the vets?

In reinforcement of this point, here is a useful chart of GW's past financial performance:

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/8610/2007toandpat2js7.jpg

And the discount rate used is only the published UK national inflation rate ("RPI"), not the actual rate of inflation that GW has applied to its prices. Which arguably is somewhat higher, so the effect is likely to be even greater in actuality.

Simply put, GW can't afford to lose ANY source of revenue whether "vet", or "n00b" or anything else!

blongbling
20-03-2008, 14:26
I hope those that matter is GW are taking account of this poll with their share price around 1.83 british sterling and their desperate acts with the 25th Warhammer b-day they better listen. Or Succumb to a very slow and sad painful death.

is this the desperate act of a 25th bday party that has been planned for a year now?

RevEv
20-03-2008, 14:27
Voted no.

Vets tend to have a far higher and consistent buying power than newbies, and can be responsible for bringing newbies in to the hobby.

Interestingly a note on the desk at my local GW reads 'Vets are Important'.

Could there be people in GW who actually may, possibly, perhaps, be getting this mesage finally?

blongbling
20-03-2008, 15:02
Voted no.

Vets tend to have a far higher and consistent buying power than newbies, and can be responsible for bringing newbies in to the hobby.

Interestingly a note on the desk at my local GW reads 'Vets are Important'.

Could there be people in GW who actually may, possibly, perhaps, be getting this mesage finally?


i think that GW has always thought that...providing support for them though i think isnt s easy as we think.......

RevEv
20-03-2008, 21:11
I have noticed a far better level of support, however, since more 'veteran' designers have come out of hiding to take a more direct control of the product (Jervis et al).