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Vocario
15-03-2008, 11:09
Just seems to me that a lot of people think the Run rule will be very similar to Fleet. Well, from the PDF leaked, it will, but it seems that no one managed to get the rumored other disadvantage, aside from the no shooting. In the PDF I have read, you are also not allowed to assault, so the Run rule is not so advantageous as Fleet. You sacrifice the entire unit for a turn to move an average of 3.5"... It needs calculated use, and I believe that it is a brilliant addition, very tactical, because it has such major disadvantages. Of course, for the Orks it is a bit better than for Space Marines or Chaos Marines, but still, a brilliant addition, and I am looking forward to testing it out.

What are your thoughts about the Run rule if you are not allowed to neither assault nor shoot?

- Vocario

tarrin
15-03-2008, 11:48
Playing tau i have been on the recieving end of run, and though it has obvious limitations it allows armies to cross the board faster. This means that the balance between CC and shooting has shifted to the former, which IMHO is not a good thing.
I guarantee that CC armies will be on the rise whilst shooting armies will suffer.

It is meant as a way to get in position, to gain tactical advantage, however it doesn't take into account people taking heavy infantry such as a 10 man tac squad with meltagun/flamer and fist and run straight up the board, jumping cover as they go. Let alone ork mobs and nid swarms.

I dont see it has any disadvantages. It will be used when you can't shoot or don't need to (such as not in rapid fire range). the sooner you can get into 12 with an enemy the sooner CC will happen.

King of tombs
15-03-2008, 12:02
i must agree i am not looking forward to using my tau against orks in 5th edition, im hoping there will hiden things to help balance the different styles of play.

Souchan
15-03-2008, 12:37
i must agree i am not looking forward to using my tau against orks in 5th edition, im hoping there will hiden things to help balance the different styles of play.

One thing of the top of my head that our submunitions will no longer miss 100% and we now have a reason to use a markerlight to make our RH BS5(other than being really good at throwing 2's when firing your rail gun, like me), with an average scatter of 2 inches and partials hitting automatically now. 3ML hits and they you have bs+1,Cover-2 AP 4 Template bringing the pain.

LoS now only being blocked by impassable terrain and us being the only army capable of having any of our long range weapon ignore cover saves(though I usually just drop it to 6+) is also a nice thing. Not to mention that giving our Stealths markerlights will no longer need them to be static is awesome. Regular suits though will probably be getting shield drones now though.

OverchargeThis!
15-03-2008, 12:39
As it relates to countering running enemy cc units....

With my IG, I was thinking of fielding my 2 squads of RR's in reserve in most games. THis way, they come on in turns 2 through 5 when the enemy is much closer to my lines, for a good counter-charge or positioning. THis puts them on the table without being shot at prior to their most effective usage.

For Tau, I can see pretty much the same thing. 2 kroot squads held in reserve. I think they can either come on board from the opposite board edge or arrive via reserves normally. Either way, it's a great counter to opposing cc unit and infiltrators. Has this been considered?

Those kroot hounds and kroot oxen aren't slouches in cc, especially when they get the charge.

Darth Rubi
15-03-2008, 13:50
To the OP, I think pretty much everyone noticed that you can't assault, hence the lack of "what is the point of fleet" threads

Mugatu
15-03-2008, 13:57
It's only a handfull of people that, in "running" discussion thread, come and say "OMG you can move 6", Run and then charge another 6 ! WTF !?"

But they usually get corrected quite fast.

Carlos
15-03-2008, 16:12
Although I dont play as Tau and cant comment, Id have thought that any rule that brings the enemy within rapid fire range of your pulse rifles faster is a good one?

Goq Gar
15-03-2008, 16:14
i must agree i am not looking forward to using my tau against orks in 5th edition, im hoping there will hiden things to help balance the different styles of play.

Well, as tau, you already have a 30" S5 AP5 possibly 2+ to hit unit of death warriors for little over 100pts.

And lots of ordnance. And Burstcannon/flamer wielding gigantic suits of death. In games i've been playing so far with my orks I suffer immensely. Ergo, with the run rule, I hope to have what some may call a "chance" :D

zealot!
15-03-2008, 17:16
Although I dont play as Tau and cant comment, Id have thought that any rule that brings the enemy within rapid fire range of your pulse rifles faster is a good one?

sometimes ppl just say it for ya!

SoB's loooove it when enemies run :D

I ran once in the game I played. I don't see it being used a lot. If my opponent wants to 'run' straight at me, I'll be happy to destroy him.

Drek
15-03-2008, 17:55
I dont think it shifts the balance of power as much as realigns it evenly. 4th Edition is all about mobile firepower and is pretty shooting oriented now. Run is a great advantage for CC armies like swarm nids and Orks which really have no chance against gunlines atm. It doesn't make them unbeatable though and you will need to adjust your tactics to play effectively. I think people are knee jerking this as armies they previously didn't have to worry about now will provide a challenge.

Overall, I like 5th edition from what I have read (I play Chaos) and am eager to get some games in with the rules.

Vocario
15-03-2008, 18:25
I agree with Drek, it realigns it properly. And effective charge range is not changed, you can still only assault 12", meaning that Rapid Fire weapons are still quite able to make sure that the enemy cannot assault. Especially considering markerlights and S5. Same with massed bolter fire. And I apologize if this has come to the attention of most people, I just did not see any evidence of that from what I have read.

zealot!
15-03-2008, 18:38
the original thread was already brought to most ppl's attention so i wouldn't sweat it vocario

Mandragola
15-03-2008, 18:58
Most assaulting armies can already move fast in some way. I think run probably benefits shooting armies at least as much, since you can actually run away now.

There's a problem for rapid fire troops if something like a unit of gaunts is coming at them. If they move away they will be out of 12" in almost all cases (or the gaunts would have charged them already) so they can't shoot. The gaunts then get to fleet and often catch you anyway, so you just wasted a turn and had no way to escape.

Currently I will tend to have guys with rapid fire guns advance towards the enemy and shoot, resigned to the fact that a tide of gaunts is going to hit them. In 5th I might have them run away while their friends shoot.

I think that guard and tau players will probably benefit from 5th. There is more you can do with a run than rush towards the enemy.

Draconian77
15-03-2008, 18:59
To the 3-4 people that mentioned swarm nids gaining from the run rule.
They did not improve by one iota.

Stealers/Gaunts/Hormagaunts/Gargoyles could already fleet so run is a pointless addition to them.

Ripper Swarms gained the run abilty?(Can swarms run? I do not have the pdf.)
But seeing as how only troops score I don't see anyone taking non-scoring rippers.

On the point of "they are in rapid fire range sooner"
That is no advantage.
12 Fire Warriors firing at some Orks in 4th ed can fire what, about 4 times each assuming they started a little over 24" away and the Tau went second and rapid fired when the Orks where within 12". So about 48 shots.

In 5th ed they will probably only get to shoot 3 times given the same conditions because the Orks runs in turns 1+2 should average out at 7".

Just some thoughts.

graveaccomplice
15-03-2008, 22:10
Although I dont play as Tau and cant comment, Id have thought that any rule that brings the enemy within rapid fire range of your pulse rifles faster is a good one?


There's also using terrain as barbed wire, slowing down assaulters while you shoot through it (with tau negating the cover save all together). Then again, most folks don't use large amounts of terrain in their games.

zealot!
15-03-2008, 23:34
draconian, theres more of them left to fire...

and why did u choose such a lovely name? reminds me of mankinds enemy or something ;)

Rombo Baak
16-03-2008, 01:47
Ripper Swarms gained the run abilty?(Can swarms run? I do not have the pdf.)
But seeing as how only troops score I don't see anyone taking non-scoring rippers.


Having your big unit of lootas locked in combat with a bunch of flying rippers in second turn is a pain in the ***. Even more when 24 genestealers are following close behind. This game is not only about scoring, you know?

Sithlord
16-03-2008, 02:03
all jump infantry can RUN..... seriously I think stormboyz will pack a punch in 2 turns

Hellebore
16-03-2008, 05:16
Well if you can't assault after running it puts you closer to rapid fire range (seeing as how you can move and still shoot).

The units that have Fleet can assault just like they can now, so the difference is pretty minor.


I don't really see run as particularly powerful, it just gives you one more tactic to choose from and should hopefully make the game a little bit more fluid.

Hellebore

Codsticker
16-03-2008, 06:29
With my IG, I was thinking of fielding my 2 squads of RR's in reserve in most games. THis way, they come on in turns 2 through 5 when the enemy is much closer to my lines, for a good counter-charge or positioning. THis puts them on the table without being shot at prior to their most effective usage.

I use them this way in games now, if I have the option.

Mojaco
16-03-2008, 12:42
I think run adds a tactic that even an 8 year old understands.

Enemy outshoots you? Run instead of shooting. Last 2 turns and you need objectives? Run. That's it. Superlame. I think orks and berzerkers will never fire their sidearms again. I liked how foottroopers had a clear disadvantage compared to transported troops. But now? Not so much.

The rule is brainless and one-sided. How can anyone like it?

The one nice thing about it might be that possessed might become worth it.

zealot!
16-03-2008, 15:49
Mojaco, I'd point out the things you missed, but since the rule is so brainless I'll leave it to you to figure out why you might want them in a transport.... *cough* 12guaranteedinchescantbeshotbyenemy

Vocario
16-03-2008, 17:38
Mojaco, if you cannot appreciate the balancing feature of the Run rule, the realism of it, as well as the tactical addition it gives to the game, then I pity you. And Possessed were already worth it.

In any event, to all of you discussing this in a constructive way, keep it up. This is getting to become an interesting discussion :D.

As stated, I still believe that it will be a good option to all races, some more than others, of course, but with what Universal Rule is not? Objective grabbing is of course a good point, but by running when outshot by the enemy army, you give up any and all opportunity to reduce the incoming fire, which is not necessarily what you want to do. Also, when playing an assaulty army, you will be be moving closer to assault, granted, but you will also be advancing into the teeth of the enemy's guns. As stated previously in a different topic, 5th Edition is not all about assault, but it will be moving towards emphasis on close-quarter fighting, not necessarily close combat. For those of you who have the PDF, you might have noticed that there is a big "This needs changing" yellow box over the current rapid fire rules. I am really looking forward to see what kind of change that will be (personally I would love 3 shots within 3" or something ;)).

Keep up the good discussion :D

Drek
16-03-2008, 17:49
you might have noticed that there is a big "This needs changing" yellow box over the current rapid fire rules

Thats there because the diagram is from the 3rd edition rulebook. Where you could shoot twice up to 12" or once up to 24" when standing still or once up to 12" if moving. I saw nothing in the rules that stated Rapid Fire was different then it is now.

As for running, I like the rule. Should prove a fun addition and give armies something to think about.

zealot!
16-03-2008, 19:27
rapid fire could extend to 18" ..... i mean orks got 18" shootas remember?

Drek
16-03-2008, 19:46
Orks have 18" Assault weapons. That doesn't change rapid fire.

Mojaco
16-03-2008, 20:24
Mojaco, I'd point out the things you missed, but since the rule is so brainless I'll leave it to you to figure out why you might want them in a transport.... *cough* 12guaranteedinchescantbeshotbyenemy
So, when I get a good sprint I can run as fast as a tank.... And still you defend it? Zombie robot necrons, eldar Wraithguard automatons, 10-ton Carnifexes... all as fast as a tank. Seems pretty brainless to me.

Getting into enemy guns faster isn't a drawback, as it would happen at one time anyway. Running actually makes units less predicatable as you can't know where they'll end up. You end up missing at least one turn of long-range shooting thanks to running..

I find it curious that fleet of foot was once considered an actual bonus. Genestealer that infiltrate actually lose fleet, probably for balance. Yet, somehow, suddenly everyone gets it, but now there is no balancing issue? Because... tum tum tum... you cant charge when running! IMG brilliant. Or wait, no. I mean stupid.

I've started Orks, and they're pretty good as it is. All the new rules only seem to make them better. One Waagh each battle makes for a nice dramatic choice. Now, I'll just run until I'm confident of a charge and Waaagh. Yawn. Now I understand why you aren't allowed to Waagh the first turn. Some 8yr old might ruin his waagh early on, and we don't want that to happen.

Perhaps I wouldn't hate running so much if the rest of the rules didn't seem equally random and changing rule for the sake of changing. Their mission seemed so simple; fix skimmers and rending. Yet somehow they're making more changes then 3rd to 4th.

zealot!
16-03-2008, 21:05
make your own game then and quit polluting this forum with your non-sensical rambling/whining.

PhonelessInAtl
16-03-2008, 22:05
calm down guys, mojaco has every right to give his opinion, no matter how different it is than yours, or how...passionate...he is regarding it.

i dont have the pdf, or know the specifics of running, but if my IG can shoot straight through difficult terrain like you said, then that might make up for the round of shooting id lose anyway.

cailus
16-03-2008, 22:58
I agree with Mojaco.

A game where a big glove is more potent than an autocannon and that is already ober 50% close combat orientated does not need assault troops getting into position to assault quicker.

intellectawe
16-03-2008, 23:33
It's only a handfull of people that, in "running" discussion thread, come and say "OMG you can move 6", Run and then charge another 6 ! WTF !?"

But they usually get corrected quite fast.

Same as all these lame posters crying "OMG 5th ed is the assault ed!" BS.

What these eTards are forgetting is that terrain normally won't block LOS. Something that the con-Run whiners are cleverly leaving out of their whine fest posts.

'OMG, I am Tau and Orks will RAPE me!" Well, lets be honest, they probably rape you anyway in the current edition. At least now they can be shot at no matter where they are on turn 1.

zealot!
17-03-2008, 01:32
'OMG, I am Tau and Orks will RAPE me!" Well, lets be honest, they probably rape you anyway in the current edition. At least now they can be shot at no matter where they are on turn 1.

lol! and cailus, you do know that all powerfist-guys will be losing an attack in 5th edition, right?

man.... im totally not gonna play point/counter-point with the emo crowd on here tho :D

cybercaine
17-03-2008, 06:29
Perhaps I wouldn't hate running so much if the rest of the rules didn't seem equally random and changing rule for the sake of changing. Their mission seemed so simple; fix skimmers and rending. Yet somehow they're making more changes then 3rd to 4th.

How was that the mission? Skimmers weren't really unbalanced. One skimmer was unbalanced. I don't see devilfishes, landspeeders, Monoliths on board and think, "geez. . . they really need to fix skimmers. . ." I do think about "fixing" a skimmer in particular when my opponent puts 3 falcons on board and drops in some harlequins and firedragons inside the unkillable falcons.

On the other hand, what was unbalanced was the preponderance of elite armies in this game. People drift towards the all-elite/heavy/hq armies and play min.-sized squads all the time. The change to scoring units is a nice counter-weight to this point. You can still play those elite-heavy lists, you just make a decision that gives an advantage to your opponent. This change also "fixes" some of the inherent problems with the idea of a FO chart, which is supposed to denote the common makeup in an army, and what constitutes support style units. Because of the FO, Nidzilla and Tri-falcon have run rampant. With the change to scoring, this decreases their ability to dominate the game. They can still be played and can win. But they are no longer the win-button beatsticks. I would define this as a "fix" that was needed.

Furthermore, I think that the run move will be very advantageous for the gun-line style armies. Given that only troops score, a vehicle (figurative or literal) is needed to make these units more mobile to grab objectives. This will also enable these gun-lines to get away from the oncoming rush of fast units. Why? All the assault armies are already really fast. . . with the exception of shoota boyz. Boyz in truks, 'stealers, Death Company, Harlequins, Wyches. . . these were already a lot faster than the other units in the game. These h2h monsters had vehicles or rules present to enable them to get into h2h a lot quicker and begin the CC chain that is so brutal for gun-line armies to deal with. Now, when the CC monsters are coming (and some of these might be faster than they are currently due to run), the other units can escape in other directions so that your stuff isn't chained one unit after another. . . which is the worst possible thing that could happen to a gun-line style army. Furthermore, it enables you to perhaps get away from the oncoming slaughter with the closest unit and maintain fire on the enemy with units that are furtherest away.

Mojaco
17-03-2008, 10:26
Furthermore, I think that the run move will be very advantageous for the gun-line style armies. Given that only troops score, a vehicle (figurative or literal) is needed to make these units more mobile to grab objectives. This will also enable these gun-lines to get away from the oncoming rush of fast units. Why? All the assault armies are already really fast. . . with the exception of shoota boyz. Boyz in truks, 'stealers, Death Company, Harlequins, Wyches. . . these were already a lot faster than the other units in the game. These h2h monsters had vehicles or rules present to enable them to get into h2h a lot quicker and begin the CC chain that is so brutal for gun-line armies to deal with. Now, when the CC monsters are coming (and some of these might be faster than they are currently due to run), the other units can escape in other directions so that your stuff isn't chained one unit after another. . . which is the worst possible thing that could happen to a gun-line style army. Furthermore, it enables you to perhaps get away from the oncoming slaughter with the closest unit and maintain fire on the enemy with units that are furtherest away.
Thank you for a well-though counter argument, and not reverting to calling someone who doesn't like a rule "emo". In other words, thanks for being an adult.

I realise the above scenario is also a possibility. Running will be more then a boost to CC armies, but I'm very sceptical about how a rule like this, which is an obvious boost to CC armies, is not going to be unbalanced as CC armies do great already. True LOS? Perhaps.
In the end, all of us, even the happy GW lovers, don't KNOW how 5th will play. I dislike upcoming rules mostly because I don't see the merit. Perhaps I'm lucky, but in my gaming environment, including tournaments, games are fun and noone has any desire for a new edition. Fixes needed are minor and can easily be done within the boundaries of a codex (rending being a good example with the new DA codex), and people already use plenty of troops, with elite armies as nice varieties. Punishing them with more kill points and no ability to score seems like a double punch knockout.

There are just so many changes that it's difficult to see how everything will work out. Will 6 fire dragons still be viable if they give away 2 kill points after their one-trick pony business? I have no clue.

And like I said, I play Orks currently, not Tau, so I'm not frustrated with the idea of losing to CC armies.

tarrin
17-03-2008, 11:11
yes running does help shooty armies to get away from CC units, but on a 6x4 table there is only so far you can run, and with cover not as good as it was, its much harder to hide. The issue is, that most gun-line armies tend to set up where there is no where else to run, at the back or in vantage points such as buildings.

With troops only scoring those gun-lines (IG, Tau) have to advance their troops towards the CC units to stand a chance in claiming, whilst CC armies (who tend to have their specialist troops in the troops slot BA, stealers, BT, orks) get a triple bonus, in run , thier opponents coming to them, whilst still scoring.

This is why i have seen, in playtesting a lot of horde armies, tac marine heavy, rhino rushes doing well whilst gun-line and elite style armies have sucked.

You can afford to play the natural game with these armies (run forward and kill) whilst gun-lines are hindered as standing ground is not an option.

Yes rapid fire will come into play, but how many times do you see a full squad of 30 orks or 10 assault marines go down under rapid fire. You have to fire a lot at it, and there is no way that in the 1-2 rounds of shooting you will get can you kill everything, especially if you get 2-3 full units running in. if you don't kill the whole squad your troops will die.

My honest opinion, from reading here and playing is that the current situation of 5th (which will probably change) limits the choice of effective armies more than 4th did.

Mojaco
17-03-2008, 11:14
My honest opinion, from reading here and playing is that the current situation of 5th (which will probably change) limits the choice of effective armies more than 4th did.
Well put! My fear exactly.

shin'keiro
17-03-2008, 15:43
The only advantage to running as i see it - is:

Walkers such as Dreads or my wraithlords and avatar can move quicker across the table to get into CC, at the mo the avatar is hopeless, but with run he'll be pretty damn good IMO.

sliganian
17-03-2008, 16:05
The only advantage to running as i see it - is:

Walkers such as Dreads or my wraithlords and avatar can move quicker across the table to get into CC, at the mo the avatar is hopeless, but with run he'll be pretty damn good IMO.

Let's not forget that we may see Carnifexes finally get back to what they are supposed to be: line-breaking living engines of choppy destruction.

As opposed to their current role: fat armoured tanks hiding in trees lobbing bug-bullets at the enemy.

Mojaco
17-03-2008, 16:22
The only advantage to running as i see it - is:

Walkers such as Dreads or my wraithlords and avatar can move quicker across the table to get into CC, at the mo the avatar is hopeless, but with run he'll be pretty damn good IMO.
Avatar hopeless? He's the best fire magnet in the game! And he makes your own lines fearless. I wouldn't run him around too much, otherwise the farseer might lose him.

Inquisitor_Eljer
17-03-2008, 16:56
Having not seen the PDF and only reading casually, won't run also help Drop and Deep-Strike troops have a little movement in the turn they hit the table? Maybe get closer to the enemy unit, or maybe try for a little cover save by running into terrain or something?

I know they won't be able to block LoS, but if terrain improves their save it's not a bad idea.

Azzy
17-03-2008, 23:25
Having not seen the PDF and only reading casually, won't run also help Drop and Deep-Strike troops have a little movement in the turn they hit the table? Maybe get closer to the enemy unit, or maybe try for a little cover save by running into terrain or something?

I know they won't be able to block LoS, but if terrain improves their save it's not a bad idea.

You, sir, are entirely correct.

graveaccomplice
18-03-2008, 04:02
The only advantage to running as i see it - is:

Walkers such as Dreads or my wraithlords and avatar can move quicker across the table to get into CC, at the mo the avatar is hopeless, but with run he'll be pretty damn good IMO.

Or that synapse creatures can keep up with the rest of the army.

So far, what I've seen run do wouldn't speed up assaulters so much as keep them from outrunning their supporting units.

intellectawe
18-03-2008, 04:17
Run will finally help to rid us of all these horrid gunfexes, and finally give us some good old fashioned CC carnifexes :)

cailus
18-03-2008, 04:41
lol! and cailus, you do know that all powerfist-guys will be losing an attack in 5th edition, right?


My Ork nobs will still pack 4 S9 powerklaw attacks on the charge and 3 at any other time.

Marine Sarges will still have 2 attacks base and 3 on the charge and this is still still what will win combats.

Powerklaw/fists should've been modified in a different manner - perhaps making them S+2 or something similar. As it stands they will continue to shred Dreads, MC's and IC's alike.

The Orange
18-03-2008, 05:04
The only foreseeable advantage I see for the Tau is that they'll be better equipped to run away from combat. You can't punch what you can't catch :p.

cailus
18-03-2008, 06:00
The only foreseeable advantage I see for the Tau is that they'll be better equipped to run away from combat. You can't punch what you can't catch :p.

Could you please explain?

If you're in combat the only way to run from combat is to lose and roll high enough on your initiative rolloff or don't have any models in base to base. In the first case your I2 means you are certainly dead.

As for running away from combats before you are charged, as it's been stated most things that are close combat orientated are fast anyway.

The tables are too small to make tactical withdrawals.

I have found the movement rates in 40K to be a problem in the transition from 2nd to 3rd edition.

In 2nd edition a Marine walked 4 inches a turn or assaulted/ran 8 inches.

In 3rd edition the basic movement went from 4 to 6 inches and the maximum possible movement went from 8 inches to 12 inches.

Quicker creatures like the Eldar went from 5-6 inches a turn basic movement to 6-12 if they fleeted and from 10-12 for assaulting to 12-18 inches if they charge and use fleet.

In essence the distances moved in the game became smaller yet the basic range of weaponry stayed the same and many heavy weapons lost range.

Other factors that contributed to this is the requirement to stay stationary to fire most weapons at full range.

So in essence it took less time to get into combat. Hence close combat dominates. Most games I play, I get to charge by turn 2 with fast elements and turn 3 with basic infantry.

Making basic troops and even jump pack equipped troops even faster further throws the equilibrium even more towards assault.

Draconian77
18-03-2008, 06:15
draconian, theres more of them left to fire...

Hmm, a speculative counter argument but ill post up some points.

A)Not all units that will make use of run will be armed with guns.

B)Secondly they might be armed with rapid fire weapons so moving/shooting/assault options are limited.

C)They might not want to shoot you becuase they might kill the models within assault range or cause you to run waway.

D)If they reach Hth you have lost a squad. The extra turn of shooting might prevent the loss of said squad. Said squad can then contribute its firepower to the rest of the game.

and why did u choose such a lovely name? reminds me of mankinds enemy or something

Its nice to see someone likes the name... Everyone else is so mean to me.: :cries: