PDA

View Full Version : Apocolypse, how do I make a strong tactical list to win?



-Grimgorironhide-
16-03-2008, 03:52
Once I got Apoc, I luved all the datasheats and guides and stuff, but after a while I want to have an army that can be a strong army in it if used tactifully right, but with all these super heavies and stuff is that even possible, because I love to do an apoc game where I win because of my superior playing style.
cheers

ehlijen
16-03-2008, 04:05
Apocalypse isn't about winning, and it's not about tactical challenges. It's about a lot of stuff blowing up quickly and spectacularly.

If you need to win, Apocalypse isn't your game (this is not a comment about 'winning at all costs', it seriously isn't a game where the better player has better chances). If you want to combine tactical challenges and Apocalypse, you need an opponent who thinks likewise and make army list arrangements with him.

AngryAngel
16-03-2008, 04:57
Alot of the Assets aren't well balanced with one another, same goes for the formations and some of the units. If you want a game where winning matters. Play a normal game, Apoc is just for fun, period. Thats the mission, have fun with your friends and blow your armies to heck.

-Grimgorironhide-
16-03-2008, 05:08
yeah, but because of The FOC I am quite limited on how I want my army to be without making it apocolypse size. 1500pts is fine but with 2500 I feel quite restricted with my selections.

twj
16-03-2008, 05:23
yeah, but because of The FOC I am quite limited on how I want my army to be without making it apocolypse size. 1500pts is fine but with 2500 I feel quite restricted with my selections.

You can always arrange to use more than one FOC, as long as you increase the number of compulsory units. E.g. 2 FOCs, than 4 troops and 2 HQ...

vanquish46
16-03-2008, 06:43
what is FOC? anyways as others have said apoc is more of for big huge battles with lots of tanks and troops and literally apocalypse

Snowfire
16-03-2008, 06:50
FOC - Force Organisation Chart

Gorbad Ironclaw
16-03-2008, 08:06
Thats the mission, have fun with your friends and blow your armies to heck.


IMO a lot of the fun comes from pitting your forces against each other and see who comes out on top, simply saying Apoc is just about mindlessly blowing up stuff is a bit easy I think. Not that it's wrong, because it really does seem to work like that, I just think it's disapointing that there seem to be so little 'game' left in it.

ehlijen
16-03-2008, 08:39
The amount of 'game' as you call it in a apocalypse game is equal to:

(the amount of 'game' you want + the amount of 'game' your opponent wants) / the difference of the two.

Ie: it's only as good a game as you are friends with the opponent. If you both want a tactical game, there are ways to make it such, but it requires cooperation to get there (ie, army lists and strategems are specified by a mutually agreed and cooperatively designed scenario). If you just pit any two armies against each other without checking with what your opponent is doing or wants from the game, it's not going to be anything but a strategem trump card game where you put lots of minitiarues on the table and take them off again because...I dunno, you just do.

-Grimgorironhide-
16-03-2008, 09:12
True I just wish so, because I have a forgeworld thunderhawk, but since I can't use it in a normal game and it is my main centre piece, I would like to se it effectively.

teh_soldier
16-03-2008, 10:10
You can use it in normal games, there are rules for it in Imperial Armour, just play a normal game, and agree with your opponent to use more than one FoC, as other have said.

Hulkster
16-03-2008, 10:23
When I play over 2000pts I always use 2 FOC, otherwise it can be impossible (especially for Tau)

Get Imperial Armour 2 it has the normal 40k rules for using the thunderhawk, it also has the IA rules for flyers in the back

Check your opponent agrees that this is a better idea than Apocalypse in your case

Enjoy

-Grimgorironhide-
16-03-2008, 10:50
Imperial Armour, of course but will number 2 and 1 still be in stock or are the discontinued.

Dreachon
16-03-2008, 11:22
All of the large hardcover books are still in production.

IA volume 2: forces of space marines and inquisition is the one you need.

Chaos and Evil
16-03-2008, 11:33
Apocalypse is not about 'winning' or 'losing'.

It's about watching stuff blow up. :D

Ben
16-03-2008, 12:19
Apocalypse is about fun, if you go in with the mindset that it isn't about using lots of models and having a laugh, you are probably wasting your time, and should play normal k, which is all about winning.

Bunnahabhain
16-03-2008, 12:19
if you want a tactical game of Apocolypse, then you'll need to write a scenario for it, avoiding some some of the stratergerms and legendary units, and having quite a low points total for the table space. Tactics don't work with overcrowding.
Defending the line to the last is fine, but if 100 genestealers flank march behind you, or half the death wing teleport down together, somewhat pointless.

Alternatively, deliberately stick to the one FOC, and enjoy the challange it gives you, as you can't just take your favourite optimised units.
I would advise NOT facing Guard at this point, as a mechanised infantry company, ie one full Guard FOC, comes out to about 14K when you run out of sensible options...

Ironhand
16-03-2008, 12:24
Fact is, you do not have to use a Force Org Chart for Apocalypse - just put your stuff on the table, roll dice, and have fun.

AdmiralDick
16-03-2008, 13:50
the best advice i can offer if you want to increase your chances of winning an Apoc game is to contruct and army rather than just picking whatever because you can. it sounds really obvious, but its true.

playing with one large army is much more effective than playing with two smaller ones (although that one large army can be made up of units from more than one army lists). the more erratic or lopsided your selection the harder it is to adapt to changes and get it to achieve what you want. take 6 Baneblades or one of every unit from every army if you want to muck around, but don't expect it to bring up decent results.

sigur
16-03-2008, 15:00
Apocalypse is about fun, ...normal [40]k, which is all about winning.

Wow, this is one pretty bad effect Apoc could have on some people's reception of what 40k is about.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
16-03-2008, 15:07
Apocalypse is all about what GW games used to be about, before the nefarious tendrils of the Tournament sank their claws into the public psyche.

Thats right, fun!

Malachai
16-03-2008, 16:20
There is absolutely nothing wrong with winning, it doesn't mean you can't have fun.
Winning at all costs is what troubles me. People who can't accept losing troubles me too.
I'm pretty competitive, but if things go wrong i still enjoy the game. Being a sport is more important then winning.
Apocalypse isn't about winning, but that doesn't mean you don't want to destroy the enemy's army.
I prefer an army you can also use competitive in a 40K game.
There is just no point in using 50 death company guys. Yeah, sure, it could be fun, once or twice...

Master Jeridian
16-03-2008, 16:32
I always thought Apoc was about people who've never been to tournaments yet hate them being able to have a monopoly on 'fun' as though 'fun' is a tangible quantity that can be bound in a book. As though before Apoc everyone played 40k for work? For punishment?

It is also irrefutable that fun = random, that fun = no skill or tactics necessary, that fun = everything a 13yr old finds fun.

Malachai
16-03-2008, 16:43
I agree with that.

Grimtuff
16-03-2008, 17:04
*Sigh*

Read my sig..... :rolleyes:

teh_soldier
16-03-2008, 18:04
I agree with Grimtuff's sig, except that for Apocalypse, the objective of the game is to have fun, not to win.

Chaos and Evil
16-03-2008, 19:09
I always thought Apoc was about people who've never been to tournaments, yet hate them being able to have a monopoly on 'fun' as though 'fun' is a tangible quantity that can be bound in a book.

Are you saying that the most fun you get from 40k is at tournaments? It's really hard to understand your syntax.


As though before Apoc everyone played 40k for work? For punishment?

Apocalypse just allows kids to play megabattles... yes the rules are dumber than normal 40k, but that's the point of Apocalypse!

The point of Apolcalypse is to watch things go BOOM!

There is no point trying to make a 'tactical' Apocalypse army list really, as the game engine itself simply isn't really designed for tactics... strategy perhaps (Warhammer 40k has lots of strategy!) but tactics, in Apocalypse?

No. :rolleyes:

-Grimgorironhide-
16-03-2008, 21:51
Yeah I don't care if I win or lose as long as I know I did the best i could do, Trust me I wouldn't play 40k if it wasn't fun but why would you paint and build an army that turns out to never have a balanced chance of winning, only to see it half gone by turn two.

Master Jeridian
16-03-2008, 22:04
Are you saying that the most fun you get from 40k is at tournaments? It's really hard to understand your syntax.

No, just that tournament-haters and people who hail Apoc as the only 'fun' way to play 40k are usually one and the same.

It's just the weird mentality that before Apoc, 40k wasn't 'fun', it took a 30 additional add-on book to bring 'fun' to the wargame.
That anyone who wants to think during a game, that wants to compete on a fair level with each side being equal is not having 'fun', as 'fun' can only be achieved through Apoc.


Apocalypse just allows kids to play megabattles... yes the rules are dumber than normal 40k, but that's the point of Apocalypse!

The point of Apolcalypse is to watch things go BOOM!


Agree with this. Except, stuff goes BOOM (or in reality doesn't) in 40k.


There is no point trying to make a 'tactical' Apocalypse army list really, as the game engine itself simply isn't really designed for tactics... strategy perhaps (Warhammer 40k has lots of strategy!) but tactics, in Apocalypse?

What do you define as Strategy? Strategy usual means the overall war plan. Maybe the Eldar strategy for a war, for example, is to hit and run, guerilla tactics, generally to avoid a straight fight and continually raid the enemy- the strategy being to sap their will and ability to fight without being forced into an engagement.

How this strategy plays out on the board is more about the tactics used. Attacking isolated units, withdrawing if the enemy reinforcements grow too numerous, etc.

Neither Apoc nor 40k really do this very well, you need Epic for that, but that's another thread.


It is possible to expand a 'normal' 40k game to Apoc pts limits (3000pts+) by increasing the FOC appropriately, by increasing the Mission board size, turn time, etc appropriately. By doing this you can have large games of 40k, Apoc sized, but still have a cohesive army (by the FOC) and fair and interesting missions.

Grimtuff
16-03-2008, 22:49
Yeah I don't care if I win or lose as long as I know I did the best i could do, Trust me I wouldn't play 40k if it wasn't fun but why would you paint and build an army that turns out to never have a balanced chance of winning, only to see it half gone by turn two.

You've obviously never played an APOC game have you? ;)

BrainFireBob
16-03-2008, 23:51
Apocalypse is what you make it. If you want a fun and balanced game of Apocalypse, you probably need to agree to ban most formations and stratagems. No Flank March, no bombardments, etc. In which case you're playing 3,000 point plus 40K games with different reserve and first turn rules, superheavies being tossed in. Which is fine, but not necessarily Apocalypse.

Gensuke626
17-03-2008, 00:01
Apocalypse is what you make it. If you want a fun and balanced game of Apocalypse, you probably need to agree to ban most formations and stratagems. No Flank March, no bombardments, etc. In which case you're playing 3,000 point plus 40K games with different reserve and first turn rules, superheavies being tossed in. Which is fine, but not necessarily Apocalypse.

I don't think that's nessecarily true. Maybe want to ban or limit Flank March, but I've never found Bombardments to be a problem.

but yeah...Apoc is what you make it...and when I make 2 stompas...:angel:

Cuda
17-03-2008, 01:58
True I just wish so, because I have a forgeworld thunderhawk, but since I can't use it in a normal game and it is my main centre piece, I would like to se it effectively.


I play Apocalyspe a lot more than the normal game on the account that we have a lot of 'those' things that you can't use in a normal game. I too have a flyer (Dark Eldar Raven), not as elaborate as a Thunder Hawk but just as fun to use.
With Apocalypse I get the atmosphere & mood of those battles from WWl & WWll.

Cuda...

Chaos and Evil
17-03-2008, 02:23
What do you define as Strategy? Strategy usual means the overall war plan. Maybe the Eldar strategy for a war, for example, is to hit and run, guerilla tactics, generally to avoid a straight fight and continually raid the enemy- the strategy being to sap their will and ability to fight without being forced into an engagement.

Yes, strategy is 'the thinking you do before the game'.

That'll include what army list you pick, and what plan you'll follow once you start playing the game.

40k has lots of that kind of strategic thinking.


How this strategy plays out on the board is more about the tactics used. Attacking isolated units, withdrawing if the enemy reinforcements grow too numerous, etc.

Neither Apoc nor 40k really do this very well, you need Epic for that, but that's another thread.

You certainly would (And Epic is a frankly awesome wargame) but I won't drag the thread off topic other than to say the following:

Simply put, 40k's game engine (Unlike, for example, Epic), is not designed for tactical gameplay (Beyond some basic and generally obvious in-game choices), and Apocalypse moves even further away from being the kind of game engine needed for tactical gameplay.

Apocalypse is about cool events, remaining compatable with pre-existing Codexes, astonishing explosions, and allowing mega-battles to take place in a semi-reasonable timeframe (Still tends to take much of the day though!).

BrainFireBob
17-03-2008, 05:09
I don't think that's nessecarily true. Maybe want to ban or limit Flank March, but I've never found Bombardments to be a problem.

but yeah...Apoc is what you make it...and when I make 2 stompas...:angel:

Depends on the armies being played, but bombardment can be devastating. Particularly multiple bombardments- which is quite legal if you take the formations giving bonus bombardments *and* select it as your asset. Trust me, they can be unbalancing.

Brother Siccarius
17-03-2008, 05:14
Once I got Apoc, I luved all the datasheats and guides and stuff, but after a while I want to have an army that can be a strong army in it if used tactifully right, but with all these super heavies and stuff is that even possible, because I love to do an apoc game where I win because of my superior playing style.
cheers
Ah, but you've already lost. The words in bold are ones that make you lose at Apocalypse before you start. Apocalypse is about having fun, not a win-lose record (Though you'd never know it looking at people's sigs) or being superior.

If you wanted to make an army that was good, the same techniques apply to Apocalypse as apply to any other game of warhammer.

GodofWarTx
17-03-2008, 07:39
In my opinion, apocalypse is about super-heavies. As someone who routinely plays against super heavies, its extremely difficult to destroy multiple superheavies.

For example, one test game we played was about 8000 on 8000, with Baneblade super heavies on one side (to see just how bad the game would go). Loading down with as much AT as we could and using the bunker strategem, we lost almost all AT forces by turn 2. Marine armies get smoked without superheavy support.

Ddraiglais
17-03-2008, 08:03
As others have said, Apocalypse isn't about who wins and who loses. That being said, you can still have tactical games of Apocalypse. To make tactics in Apocalypse count for something, I suggest ignoring the deployment rules and playing floorhammer. That will give you enough room to maneuver your troops, tanks, super heavies, aircraft, and titans. I would also suggest a lot of terrain as well.