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TheBoss
17-03-2008, 00:07
I have no idea how I'm supposed to beat Wood Elves using Lizardmen. The problem is that I can never get my Saurus or Kroxigor into combat (or rather, combat that I can win). Salamanders can only do so much to the massed amounts of skirmishers. In games over 2000pts, I figure that Slann can blast the small units with magic and a Carnosaur is fast enough to reach combat. In games under 2000pts however, I'm lost. And I don't want to take an army of skinks. Any suggestions?

Cragspyder
17-03-2008, 00:40
I have no idea how I'm supposed to beat Wood Elves using Lizardmen. The problem is that I can never get my Saurus or Kroxigor into combat (or rather, combat that I can win). Salamanders can only do so much to the massed amounts of skirmishers. In games over 2000pts, I figure that Slann can blast the small units with magic and a Carnosaur is fast enough to reach combat. In games under 2000pts however, I'm lost. And I don't want to take an army of skinks. Any suggestions?

I don't use them personally, but you may want to give a try to some Saurus Cavalry. They have a decent armour save compared to most Lizardmen, are T 4, and they are one of the faster things in the list.Terradons are faster but will likely be useless due to their T3 6+ save (they will be pincusioned by all those arrows) and the fact that they cannot fly into woods.

You may also want to consider Huanchi-marked Saurus Warriors and/or a Huanchi-marked Scar-Veteran, either on a Cold One or with the Charm of the Jaguar Warrior and armed with a magic weapon to negate Dryad Ward saves.

My Kroxigors were able to beat Wardancers in the front and Dryads in the rear, about the only thing they have been able to do competently.

I also pulled a fast one on my Wood Elf opponent. I usually run the rarely-used magic item Gleaming Pendant of Chotec, which you can trigger in your own CC phase in order to strike first. I had it on my Scar-Veteran last time, and so I let some Glade Riders with Hero charge some Skinks, which broke, and then had them overrun into my group of Saurus Warriors with Scar-Veteran. I then triggered the Pendant next turn and easily won the combat.

Next game the Wood Elves simply never fought that unit in the front, they just charged in the side and obiliterated it :(

If you have enough magic sub-2000 to make the Wood Elf player use his dispel dice, I would use the Blood Statuette of Spite. Even the fighty Wood Elf Heros have T3, you have a good shot at 1/2 points on one of his characters and even a shot at killing him if you get lucky. Rod of the Storm might also be worth a shot (damn these 1 use bound items!).

Make sure to hit the Wardancers with Salamander fire first if possible, they have only their 6+ ward save, hit harder then Dryads, and are worth more points.

Remember that neither Dryads, nor Wardancers, nor Wild Riders, can flee from your charges.

TheLionReturns
17-03-2008, 14:24
Well first up salamanders, every wood elf player hates them. I don't think I need to elaborate on this one.

The biggest challenge for WE's is good armour saves and high toughness. We don't have a lot of high strength so this is a challenge.

Some of the best advice, when facing a WE army would be to try and target the fast cavalry. Wild Riders are excellent flankers for the oh so important combined charges, whilst glade riders make excellent march blockers and baiters. They slow your units down allowing the WE to set up attacks and pull your units out of position allowing them to be isolated and destroyed.

With this last point, generally, it is good to try and keep your units compact against WE so they are seldom isolated and unsupported. If you deny a WE player easy targets they may get desperate and try riskier attacks, and if the WE does not win the combat in the first phase they are in trouble. Temple Guard being stubborn would be a good bet in this respect I feel.

WE are very powerful but they, more than any other army IMO, rely on working in harmony to win. Single unit on single unit they will win very little. If you can take out key parts of the machine, it gets tricky fast for a WE player.

In general I am not one of those who feel WE are overpowered, strong yes but definitely beatable, and very easy to mess up with if you don't know what you are doing. However, they are very strong at low point levels (say 1000 or less) for some reason. Try to play at 2000 pts when you can. I think this was definitely the size the list was designed for.

huitzilopochtli
17-03-2008, 18:55
leave the carnosaur at home; large target and only a 4+ AS will get killed too quickly

slann is a good choice, lore of heavens comet kills huge range of archers used to standing in one spot the whole game.

jaguar saurus a must to get rid of pesky elite units.

lots of skinks, chameleons if you can. do not attempt to take out archers with skinks -- use for wardancers, eternal guard etc.

spawning of huanchi for saurus. just march them into the forests and out the other side. interesting idea; use a long line of about 20 saurus with the H spawning to shield your units (die less than skinks but expensive).

a unit of 6 cold ones can take out 12 dryads. give them the warbanner and they'll break easy.

kroxigors are a difficulty..... try to shield with skinks or the saurus line i mentioned.

Causa Mortis
17-03-2008, 21:26
WE don't have an AMAZING magic defence so I think a 2nd Gen Slann could really have some fun; lore of fire springs to mind!

My usual fave lores like metal and shadow are less useful than usual, but the good old steed is still there, plus unseen lurker is great against any army!

TG great as well, treemen aren't the only ones who can have ld8 stubborn with a re-roll;)

TheBoss
19-03-2008, 22:30
I like the idea of taking the Mark of Huanchi for my Saurus, but is it worth it to take it over the Mark of Quetzl? That extra armor save against their shooting seems almost necessary.

SilentTempest
19-03-2008, 22:48
As a Wood Elf player, I think the scariest thing for me is the Jaguar Saurus. I'm used to being just inside my charge range and maneuvering for a nice flank charge. I'm not used to things that move just as fast as me. And certainly not ones with a bunch of S7 attacks (or if you're designing it as a cavalry killer (as opposed to a Treeman killer), you don't even need the S7 vs WE cavalry, an extra hand-weapon might be better)

If you can take out Wood Elf cavalry, then all of a sudden they're not so fast, relying on M5 Dryads compared to M6 skinks who can flee charges, and M5 Treemen vs M(more than 5) Stegadons (can't recall a Steg's Move right now). A Jaguar Saurus would do a great job of taking out those pesky cavalry...

Cragspyder
20-03-2008, 02:20
I suppose you could make a rare Saurus stealth elite squad, with Huanchi and Quetzl :)

Not worth it IMO compared to a Steggy or Sallies, especially vs. Woodies.

TheBoss
21-03-2008, 03:38
A few more questions:

Other than the ability to charge through skink screens, is there much use in a unit of Kroxigor? Those S7 attacks don't seem terribly necessary against a T3 army. Although, that M6 makes them justifiable.

Does anyone see any reason to take a Stegadon over a unit of Salamanders?

And as infinitely useful as a JSoD seems against Wood Elves, how do you keep the poor guy alive against all that shooting? I realize that he has a 3+ish AS and he's a single model, but that doesn't really seem to be enough. And with against an army where everything shoots, it's pretty difficult to keep him behind cover.

TheLionReturns
21-03-2008, 12:44
S7 Krox are probably pretty useful for dealing with a treeman and treekin you might face.

As for the JSoD if a WE player really wants to take him out with shooting they probably can. That does mean, however, that they are not shooting at other targets whilst doing this. Part of the way I play WE is to use the shooting to weaken units before I combined charge them. If a JSoD is getting shot he is still contributing in an indirect way. WE have an alter noble that can perform in a similar way just with lower toughness and less armour. Its just a fact of the game that whilst these units can be useful they are very fragile.

The stegadon vs salamanders one is a tricky one. Salamanders are a nightmare for WE's taking advantage of their low toughness and armour. However, the high toughness and wounds of the stegadon make it a tough nut to crack for a WE army. Personally I would lean in favour of the Salamanders just for the damage they can cause and the psychological effect they have on WE players. The Stegadon, whilst tough to kill for the majority of WE troops, probably won't do as much damage. Also WE have one very good way of taking Stegadons out (and carnosaurs for that matter). This is the highborn with spirit sword. It is a real risk against high leadership armies, but against low leadership monsters it will kill them very quickly. It isn't a combination you see often but one that might crop up if your opponent knows you like stegadons or carnosaurs.

Jack of Blades
21-03-2008, 13:10
Meet Oldblood. Oldblood doesn't like pointy-eared twig-like things that think they've got it all, so one day, he decided to kick their asses.

Blessed Spawning of Huanchi
Blessed Spawning of Sotek
Blessed Spawning of Chotec

Scimitar of the Sun Resplendent
The Maiming Shield
Charm of the Jaguar Warrior


Hits the RnF things on 3+ with 9 attacks on the charge, rolls 4 dice for pursuing and chooses the highest 3, has no penalty for moving through jungle, woods nor forest and moves 9''. Needless to say, this the potential to wipe out entire units of Wood Elves, and fast.

Ajit
21-03-2008, 16:22
No point for the Blessed Spawning of Huanchi if he is running around on his own, since he doesn't have a monster sized base. So drop that for either for an extra armour save or immune to pysc. And the times i run my old blood like this i drop the extra d6 for both armour and immunity.

Conotor
21-03-2008, 21:07
Sallamanders own all elves. They get massecured by them. Take out the treemen with your carnosaur, and sallies can kill pretty much everything elce.