PDA

View Full Version : Doombull list VS Vampire counts... What can I do?



][nquist0r
17-03-2008, 03:43
My list is probably quite competitive as is, (perhaps cheesy I dont know.)

I have...
1 Doombull w/MON + Slaughters Blade.
2 level 2 Brayshammies w/ MON + Braystaff.
4 Units of 3 Minotaurs w/MON + Greatweapons + light armor.
3 Beast Chariots (I put Minotaurs in them for 'theme')
4 units of 5 Chaos Hounds.
2 Giants w/ Monsterous Mutation.


I want to keep the army fielding units that the minotaurs wouldnt view as "food." I have tried taking unmarked shammies and giving them lore of fire to try to slow the ünstopable regenerating Graveguard unit of death. Unfortunately without killing the wightlord/vampire and unit all I can really do is draw out. (There is like 1k points in there...) The only thing I havent tried is running 2 giants at it and seeing if the randomness might pull out a win. Today I tried 1 chariot + giant combo, and bounced like a superball (they died in round 2 of combat) *shrug* What do you guys think? (Other than you need beastman swarms cause that wont happen.) Im happy with str 6, 3/4 attack, 3 wound, and 4+ save minotaurs.

Herod
17-03-2008, 03:56
Hiya -

I'd go 3 brays for starts, and drop MoN on them. AFAIK you can only take death, beasts, and shadow, so death is your best bet for magic missles (although I prefer beast lore). At best (w/ beast lore) you can pin his his blood/black knights/Vargulf with beast cowers. At worst, the extra shaman gives you another dispel die and is fair in combat.

What do the hounds get you? I might keep one or two units tops, for getting in way of a big knight block, but with Nurgle they are a little more risky because you have no psych re-roll.

My experience is all against old VC, so take with a grain of salt. Shaggoth might actually be "not bad" here because it is fast enough to get a flank and deny some ranks. Just have to make sure it doesn't get caught up with something ethereal.

H

][nquist0r
17-03-2008, 04:13
I was actually was running a regular chaos sorcerer in Chaos Chariot. He had the fire lore. (I needed the points and had the models.) I use the dogs either as a screen vs. shooty armies or as 2 blocks of 10 and grab table quarters otherwise. I could actually get a 3rd Brayshammie if I took out the command troups in my units (160 points) but the champion's abilty to challenge and the +1 combat resulution have saved my ass alot. If anyone has tried the straight up 3 mino's w/ greatweapons and have had success Id appreciate to hear the specifics.

Frankly
17-03-2008, 05:02
[nquist0r;2444800']

I have...
1 Doombull w/MON + Slaughters Blade.
2 level 2 Brayshammies w/ MON + Braystaff.
4 Units of 3 Minotaurs w/MON + Greatweapons + light armor.
3 Beast Chariots (I put Minotaurs in them for 'theme')
4 units of 5 Chaos Hounds.
2 Giants w/ Monsterous Mutation.




I think you actually have a really nice list the play against V.C.

But here's a thought:

One of the big match ups against any undead is well played khorne, Khorne give you 2 things that can really aide in beating V.C..

Extra CC, which in turn means more CR and more deaths.

And dispel dice, this is the tramp card that can negate a lot of many V.C. army lists power base.

Either way I'd had a unit of flyers and maybe some more hounds to help support your heavy hitting units.

explorator
17-03-2008, 05:57
I would not call your list cheesy. Your model count is low, and against undead one of the strengths of the Minotaur list is blunted, i.e. pursuing 3D6. No biggie. Drop the MoN and trust in the Mark of chaos undivided and the Doombulls high Ld. to pass those fear checks. Drop the Slaughterers blade and take a regular great weapon. Drop the MoN on the Minos. Keep one shamans as a scoll caddy, level one, no mark. Drop one Giant.

That all adds up to a smidge over 6oo points.
Add a unit of 3 Dragon Ogres with great wpns and light armor. (Basically, you are exchanging one giant for a unit with more wounds, a better save, faster, that often delivers more damage, and is not Large.)
I would love to see you add 2 units of Centigors with shields and a musician. (These are great flanking units that do not contribute to a 'horde style'.)
Add another chariot.
Now I will advise you to take one beast herd. You have enough points for a small herd that would be a great unit for your shaman to hang out in and maybe harass some units.

If you are dead set against Centigors and a beast herd, then you could still add the dragon ogres (a must), and a chariot, and also 2 more units of minotaurs and still have a few points to spare.

You do not need a ton of magic defence if you kill most of his caster by turn three. The idea is to rush forward and smash the enemy with combo charges; chariots and minos/dragon ogres. Pick out his characters with your small units of minos (you have no champions he can challenge) and concertrate your attacks until they die. Hit his Lord or BSB with Dragon Ogres and watch str 7 get work done. Your hounds, and/or Centigors should be perfect flanking units against skellies or zombies (not so much against ghouls or grave guard/black knights), and break ranks for one or two turns. You need high CR through kills. Firstly, yours must be an army of assassins, seeking out opposing spell casters and killing them as soon as you can.

Heimlich
17-03-2008, 07:00
I'd get some tuskgor chariots!

][nquist0r
20-03-2008, 05:20
I dont think dropping the marks and a giant for more units will be a great thing. I already have pretty major issues with unit deployment frontage (my models are few but their bases are wide.) I definately considered Dragon Ogres, but my giants are the only random things in my army and thus prevent me from boredom. What I need is to figure out how to beat the unstopable regenerating graveguard unit without fire. The last game I played I got pestulence off against the same unit 3 times! He was taking 3d6 str 3 hits which ignore armor saves, and he finished the game with the unit intact! (after it ate a chaos chariot, sorcerer, and giant.) I cant win unless that unit dies, only tie... Does the Hellfire sword work against regenerating units?

Frankly
20-03-2008, 12:13
Why ask if your going to discount everything?

wolsey
20-03-2008, 14:18
Kill the battle standard bearer thus get rid of regeneration. Throw a unit of minataurs with great weapons without a champion into the front of the unit and aim every attack you can can at the battle standard bearer. Sure you will lose the unit but if regeneration is causing you so many problems it is worth it.

][nquist0r
21-03-2008, 17:22
The wightlord has like 3or4 wounds, so I will definitely need the hellfire sword to kill him. I wasnt trying to shoot down what people are saying, I just wanted a stratagy I could use without spending another 300 dollars. (Minotaurs are like 25 bucks a piece in canada) I also like the nurgle theme, and a 4+ armor save on minotaurs is sick. Although having 3 brays with beast magic seems pretty cool to me so I'll convert up another model. (I hate the bray shammie models.)

TheDarkDuke
21-03-2008, 17:45
[Drop the MoN and trust in the Mark of chaos undivided and the Doombulls high Ld. to pass those fear checks. Drop the Slaughterers blade and take a regular great weapon. Drop the MoN on the Minos. Keep one shamans as a scoll caddy, level one, no mark.

i honestly would ignore all of this. undivided is not going to do really anything for minotaurs since they already cause fear (i think cant remember) and mark of nurgle is the best possible mark for minotaurs giving them a possible 4+ save which is awesome for a 40x40 mm monster. keep the slaughterers blade as there really isnt to much in a VC lsit you'll need the str 7 for and being able to replesnish wounds is nice. and only 1 scroll caddy will not really do anything at all to a vampire army with alot of magic.

sulla
21-03-2008, 18:23
In my opinion, 3 units of 4 minos would be better than 4 units of 3. Units of 4 usually have a better chance of winning when hit by cav.

For tactics, I'd advise to try and get into combat with his lesser vamps as quick as possible to kill them and cut back his magic.

The other thing is a throwaway unit that can get into combat with a vampire for a turn as he is likely to have that helm that gices a unit the vampire's ws. but it doesn't work if the vamp is in cc.

Mercules
21-03-2008, 18:43
[Drop the MoN and trust in the Mark of chaos undivided and the Doombulls high Ld. to pass those fear checks. Drop the Slaughterers blade and take a regular great weapon. Drop the MoN on the Minos. Keep one shamans as a scoll caddy, level one, no mark.

i honestly would ignore all of this. undivided is not going to do really anything for minotaurs since they already cause fear (i think cant remember) and mark of nurgle is the best possible mark for minotaurs giving them a possible 4+ save which is awesome for a 40x40 mm monster. keep the slaughterers blade as there really isnt to much in a VC lsit you'll need the str 7 for and being able to replesnish wounds is nice. and only 1 scroll caddy will not really do anything at all to a vampire army with alot of magic.

I still really like GW, LA, and MoN on Minotaurs. It turns them into what OK Ironguts wish they were.

Edit: Pulled out the book and Minotaurs do indeed cause fear.

explorator
21-03-2008, 19:15
[Drop the MoN and trust in the Mark of chaos undivided and the Doombulls high Ld. to pass those fear checks. Drop the Slaughterers blade and take a regular great weapon. Drop the MoN on the Minos. Keep one shamans as a scoll caddy, level one, no mark.

i honestly would ignore all of this. undivided is not going to do really anything for minotaurs since they already cause fear (i think cant remember) and mark of nurgle is the best possible mark for minotaurs giving them a possible 4+ save which is awesome for a 40x40 mm monster. keep the slaughterers blade as there really isnt to much in a VC lsit you'll need the str 7 for and being able to replesnish wounds is nice. and only 1 scroll caddy will not really do anything at all to a vampire army with alot of magic.

Minoraurs do cause fear, but themselves fear, terror causing opponents. The MoN is over-priced, but Mino's are expensive, and I can relate to that. Realize though, more models (mino's or DO's) would be more effective.

The Mark of Undivided is great for re-rolling panic tests, like when a unit of warhounds used as bait, flees through a unit of Mino's. Leadership 9 Doombull and a re-roll can pass alot of Ld. tests.

One scroll caddie is enough when you are killing his spell-casters on turn three, but, wait... I have already covered that in my first post.

Yehoshua
22-03-2008, 00:03
Definitely do not drop the nurgle mark on the minos. You're only going to fail panic tests caused by hounds on LD 9 from the doombull 1/6th of the time, not enough to worry about.

Giants are not very good against ranked infantry for their points (their "Little Stuff" random attacks kind of suck on average), and you're not getting any advantage from Terror, which is part of the cost of Giants. They're better against elite units (like cavalry) or units composed of large individuals, like Ogres (because the "Big Stuff" table is better).

Dragon Ogres are in no way worth it. They are only barely worth it when you don't have Nurgletaurs. They are just too expensive for what they do when you can get Minotaurs with the same save and one less strength for so many less points.

Shaggoths are like the worst of both worlds for you; they cause terror, which is essentially wasted, and are even more expensive than Giants.

As to the GraveGuard: you cannot win a frontal charge. More accurately, you almost never will win a frontal charge, especially since he's got a Vampire (or two) in the unit, if I'm not mistaken.

If you flank, you're negating up to 3 CR and gaining 1 yourself. That means you can beat them. Not that you will, but that you can.

I agree that 3 units of 4 minotaurs are better than 4 of 3, as the numbers show that a unit of 3 is on average going to lose against a fully ranked unit of GG, even on a flank charge.
A unit of 4 on the flank has slightly better than even odds, especially because you are avoiding any characters and champion.

As to marking the shamans or not...consider (I'm not sure of the utility) a beast herd with a nurgle shaman in it (providing fear-immunity to the herd) for sneaky movement through terrain. Otherwise, the movement spells of the Beast Lore may come in handy to put your hounds in advantageous positions.

Here are my questions for you:

Do you (are you trying to) use your hounds to draw his units into flank charges?

Have you tried ignoring/distracting his graveguard unit until you've cleared most of the rest of his force?

][nquist0r
22-03-2008, 02:41
Do you (are you trying to) use your hounds to draw his units into flank charges?


Have you tried ignoring/distracting his graveguard unit until you've cleared most of the rest of his force?

I typically find that my hounds eat his bat swarms, then hold table quarters.
The last 2 games I have had the graveguard is always his only unit left on the table. (besides my own units)

Yehoshua
22-03-2008, 02:54
And you don't have enough to flank and rear-charge him? Or perhaps you don't have enough turns left?

][nquist0r
23-03-2008, 23:30
No, I'm fine for time, as I have a very mobile army. The problem is keeping my doombull alive till the end. (I have tried to flank charge with my doggies, but ld 5 is hard to get vs fear causing creatures) Also, I have tried throwing the Doombull unit at the graveguard and mass attacking the standard bearer, but I cant seem to beat the regen. However the sword will definitely help a lot. 'Poof' I have another question in regards to the hellfire sword too. If I challenge a character and say he fails to save 2 wounds and I happen to roll 2 6's on the additional effect of the sword. Does he loose 12 to combat resolution? (overkill)

explorator
24-03-2008, 02:16
[nquist0r;2462819'] I have another question in regards to the hellfire sword too. If I challenge a character and say he fails to save 2 wounds and I happen to roll 2 6's on the additional effect of the sword. Does he loose 12 to combat resolution? (overkill)

The rules for challenges clearly state that the maximum bonus to combat resolution from overkill is limited to +5. pg. 77 BRB.

skank
24-03-2008, 02:35
In a challenge with the hellfire blade you can only get the wounds you inflict + D6, it's not D6 per wound inflicted.

And yes theres a cap at +5 fot overkill.

Ajit
24-03-2008, 17:08
[nquist0r;2462819']No, I'm fine for time, as I have a very mobile army. The problem is keeping my doombull alive till the end. (I have tried to flank charge with my doggies, but ld 5 is hard to get vs fear causing creatures) Also, I have tried throwing the Doombull unit at the graveguard and mass attacking the standard bearer, but I cant seem to beat the regen. However the sword will definitely help a lot. 'Poof' I have another question in regards to the hellfire sword too. If I challenge a character and say he fails to save 2 wounds and I happen to roll 2 6's on the additional effect of the sword. Does he loose 12 to combat resolution? (overkill)

I believe you only get to count five over the character's wounds.