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Lord Raneus
17-03-2008, 15:39
I was just reading the Vampire Counts book, and what I saw concerned me. I liked how each Undead army had its own unique system of healing. Vampire Counts could raise new Skeletons and Zombies outside of the original numbers, and Tomb Kings could heal their larger monsters and characters. But now, Vampires can do both! :eyebrows:

I don't really like how the Tomb King's unique way of doing things has been taken away and added to the Vampire Counts. Anyone else feel the same way?

Gazak Blacktoof
17-03-2008, 15:57
I suppose so. But there are other unique features of the tomb king army. Vampire counts still have unreliable magic and no shooting.


Hopefully when they re-do tomb kings they'll chuck in some more unique abilities that'll create some more distance between the two armies to maintain a unique playing style for each army.

I'd like to see an increased reliance on units working together and more combined arms tactics for the tomb kings, essentially building on their strengths and seperating them further from vampires, who are reliant on vampires to keep the army moving at a march and stopping it from crumbling, or using very powerful units or characters to smash the enemy apart.

To draw a parallel between two other armies, I like to see tomb kings as undead empire, with combined arms and mutual unit support, whilst vamps are are more like orcs and goblins, unreliable and weak in places whilst being incredibly tough and devastating in others.

Malorian
17-03-2008, 16:04
Tomb kings still have fact that their spells always go off, and it's just a matter of how strong they are. So although both undead teams can raise and give wounds, both are uniquely different.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
17-03-2008, 16:48
I can see Tomb Kings getting more 'defensive' than the Vampire Counts, who are very much an 'In Yer Face' army.

Something will be done to their Magic I'd expect, with, in my opinion cheaper Liche Priests are a must. Until 2,000, their Magic just isn't all that great. Nasty, sure, but you have to load up on specific Magic Items to achieve this. Not exactly a design flaw, as all the armies seem to balance out pretty nicely around the 2,500 mark, but probably an oversight!

Or even if it's just that your main Priest gets an extra casting attempt each turn, to single him out. I dunno.

But yes, there will be changes of that I am sure.

Chiron
17-03-2008, 17:09
TK get pimp mobile chariots, therefore they are still better.

edit - Any forecats on when the book will be renewed?

Gazak Blacktoof
17-03-2008, 19:00
TK get pimp mobile chariots, therefore they are still better.

edit - Any forecats on when the book will be renewed?

The new black coach and the corpse carts get far more pimping out than any of the tomb king chariots do.

In my opinion all small monstrous mounts including tomb king chariots are a weakness for the character rather than a strength. Pegasi for a throw away hero are alright but they're poor for generals or princes that you need to hang about until the later stages of the game.

EDIT: Supposedly Dark elves are after Daemons, but I've not seen any rumours for anything after that.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
17-03-2008, 19:02
Which is why the Tomb Kings main target is the Liche Priest, who nicks off at the first sign of trouble using the Cloak of the Dunes.

Stick a Prince or King in a unit of Chariots, and someone is going to get royally trundled.

Gazak Blacktoof
17-03-2008, 19:16
I find chariots are excellent as units but a big waste for characters, each to his own. I still think they dropped the ball with chariots as character mounts.

GodHead
17-03-2008, 19:39
I can see Tomb Kings getting more 'defensive' than the Vampire Counts, who are very much an 'In Yer Face' army.

Something will be done to their Magic I'd expect, with, in my opinion cheaper Liche Priests are a must. Until 2,000, their Magic just isn't all that great. Nasty, sure, but you have to load up on specific Magic Items to achieve this. Not exactly a design flaw, as all the armies seem to balance out pretty nicely around the 2,500 mark, but probably an oversight!

Or even if it's just that your main Priest gets an extra casting attempt each turn, to single him out. I dunno.

But yes, there will be changes of that I am sure.

More defensive how? I can't think of any other army in the game other than Ogres with less armour, and at least Gut Magic is defensive. In my estimation Tomb Kings are the least defensive army in the game. Their light chariot units scream harassment offense. It's only their terrible inability to march that makes the rest of their army static crap.

Hell, if Tomb Kings get half the upgrades that Vampires got in their latest book I'll be happy. Right now one Undead Warhammer army is probably twice as good as the other.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
17-03-2008, 19:40
You don't need armour when you can raise, and with the ranged firepower they can chuck about, it makes a certain amount of sense to castle, and keep your foot troops for counter attacks.

GodHead
17-03-2008, 19:51
Ranged firepower? A maximum of 2 Catapults and bowmen that hit on 5's? That doesn't win games... and I don't think it will in the future.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
17-03-2008, 19:52
A maximum of two catapults which can fire twice a turn, and bowmen which always hit on 5s no matter what they shoot at? And also potentially twice a turn?

Yes, that'll be it.

Quite like to see them get Bonethrowers in their next book. Or just more constructs.

GodHead
17-03-2008, 20:00
Ok, 2 catapults and a unit of archers that shoot "twice a turn" would require a substantial character investment as well as relying on magic. Compared to other armies it's quite pathetic for the points you put into it, and is IMHO a waste of the character's magic capabilities.

Khalida is the only way to go ranged I think, as she unlocks poison and has an undispellable double-shot ability.

But spending 200 points for a unit of 10 archers and a priest to double shoot them is a waste. 300 points for 20 archers and a priest is a waste. Shooting twice with archers is just twice as useless because of the character involvement.

Double tapping catapults is mildly useful, but again, because of the points investment, it simply isn't worth it.

I think most successful TK armies are mainly chariots and Scorpions. Sure some players take 2 catapults to go with their chariots, but they'll be on their own, not backed up with the terrible archers.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
17-03-2008, 20:03
But it;s not as if you are just buying the Priest for the sake of the Archers. He's an integral part of the army, and a bloody useful one at that.

GodHead
17-03-2008, 20:08
But he's only useful when he isn't wasting his time doing useless things like making archers shoot.

I think Tomb Kings magic is actually significantly overrated. Their only truly useful ability is movement, and that's only important because they are the only army in the game that can't march. The extra shooting, extra "1 attack" and even resurrection are very mild abilities when each priest can only cast a single spell on 2 dice.

The army would be totally unplayable without magical movement. Without extra shooting, combat and raising dead, they would barely be worse. Paying ~150 points just to get the equivalent of a march move for a single unit is ri-dam-diculous.

theunwantedbeing
17-03-2008, 20:11
The main difference is that the tomb kings version rasied D6 wounds of models on everything, rather than 1 in a lot of cases for the vampires.
It cant be cast anywhere near as often of course but it is automatically cast at least.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
17-03-2008, 20:13
True enough on the casting potential.

Plus, it's safe. No Miscasts to ruin your day, and Drain Magic is laughed at in Nehekara!

Malorian
17-03-2008, 20:14
The auto-cast is a big deal too.

GodHead
17-03-2008, 20:23
Is it? Is it really a big deal especially now compared to Vampires repeat casting on a single dice?

With only 3 Vampires with Master Powers, you'll have 10 dice. Those 10 dice, if spent one at a time will generally result in 6 successful Invocation castings, each with a +1 (so being between 4 and 7, thus each needing 2 dispel dice). Of course their Vanhels is less reliable than Urgency, but hey, they can march, so they're not disadvantaged like TK are in that regard.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
17-03-2008, 20:28
And of course, those 6 castings are oh so difficult to dispel.

No, wait, hang on a minute...

GodHead
17-03-2008, 22:36
Like I said, opponents will need at least 2 dice each to have a reasonable chance of success. Know anyone that packs 12 dice? I suppose they could use single dispel dice for a 50% chance to dispel, but then half of them get through anyways.

That pushes through just as many spells as TK magic does, with the same chance of miscasting (0%) and because it's using so many dice, it's nearly as reliable.

The strength is the ability to switch it up, lowball IoN to draw dispel dice then hammer some big guns home with force, using Power Stones if necessary or throw some big dice first, hoping they have nothing left for IoN and the book. Tomb Kings just roll their dumb 1 or 2 (or 3 if an overpriced HLP is taken) dice in the same order every time with no flexibility.

unforgiven555
17-03-2008, 23:32
I don't really like how the Tomb King's unique way of doing things has been taken away and added to the Vampire Counts. Anyone else feel the same way?

VC lost the ability to raise new units of skeletons - they can now only raise new units of zombies. Zombies CANNOT pursue. That's huge. IMO it makes sense that VC can heal and raise other units.
The TK is quite unique still. We cannot mistcast, and we autocast. We have shooting - and amazing shooting at that. Not only can the SSC shoot twice a turn, it immediately causes a panic test at -1 ld with one casualty! This often forces the enemy to either stop in their tracks or break up their battleline. TK are not a horde army - they can't raise 35 models a turn like VC. But they can do some significant damage - and their style of play is very unique. Our biggest problem is that our army is sorta in trouble at lower than about 1.5k points. VC have necros to offset this - but we generally need to spend too many points on our characters (both TK and LP) and aren't really left with a significant magic phase, or very many units to work with.

In the newer book i'd like to see some more bound spells available to TK - that would probably help their magic. Staff of Ravening is.. ok but the opponent's generally going to let it through. Taking the casket gives you more flexibility with your magic - but takes away the SSC.

Lord Raneus
18-03-2008, 01:06
Well, Vamps can get an upgrade that lets them raise new Skellies into units; just no new units.

I know Tomb Kings magic is still unique, but their way of healing/raising their troops no longer is, and that makes me sad. :(

Draconian77
18-03-2008, 09:19
I am totally with Godhead on this one. The Vampires magic phase has gone far beyond the TK's imo. Not only do their spells have less range problems but they are not found on T3 no save Liches which is a massive bonus. In any game against TK I have ever played I have just played hunt the Liches(Fast Cavalry, Sniping Magic, Flyers, whatever)

Hunting Vampires? No way.

Getting the second SSC shot is rather tricky really. I mean you need Los to your SSC don't you? I know your TK/TP won't be facing(scratch that, they won't even be in range) of your catapult which leaves you what, maybe one Lich actually facing the catapult? Plus you have to do your spells in a certain order? I mean the TK are very weak at the moment and I hope they are redone after DE because I happen to own both DE and TK :D

Cromenon
18-03-2008, 10:19
Now, TK are a bit obsolete. And I say that as a VC player. Want an example? Banner of the Barrows (45points, +1 to hit -only wights, ok-) vs Icon of the Sacred Eye (50points, +1 to hit in the first round of every combat). Now that icon is crap.

Besides, their tomb guard is nothing against our GG, and their characters are quite less customizable than ours. And their magic is, nowadays, the more reliable, yes, but one of the less powerful, oh, yes.

I'd like to see some changes to give TK a more unique fighting style, making them different but similar in some ways than the VC.

Draconian77
18-03-2008, 10:49
Hellsing Avatar.

Awesome.

Had to be said.



Really the VC magic is not that less reliable. I mean they can cast on 3+ with more dice than the TK so it averages out at about the same but they can march and Vamps don't die as easily Lichs and add CC res which Undead really need.

Famder
18-03-2008, 11:00
TK will be fixed once they get their new book, of course the old TK's are worse than the brand new VC, because the old books were pretty equal and both needed fixing in a lot of ways. I expect all Liche Priests to be equivalent of lvl 2 casters, and cast 2 spells each.

Red_Duke
18-03-2008, 11:26
The icon compared to Banner of Barrows is a bit of a misnomer though (a bit like comparing the danse to the incant of urgency) - thats +1 to hit for everyone in the unit rather than just wights. So, for say the icon on chariots - its all for the king being able to hit on a 2+ with his flail of skulls for maximum effect, and from experience, it works :) Banner of the barrows is good as well and all, but both have their specific uses imo.

Magic wise - its also worth point out that van hels only gives an 8" charge, compared to the TK who can either move normally or charge. This gives the chariots a potential 24" charge, and the carrion a mighty 40"! ok, so you dont get re-rolling misses thrown in, but for how the TK army works, its spot on imo.

Gotta say, i have both TK and VC, and of the two i prefer my TK, as i like to play with an army that firstly has combined arms, and also has a nice degree of finesse with it too.

Btw, anyone who thinks SSC's are poor obviously has'nt been on the receiving end of them when used by an experienced TK general is all i can say...

While VC may be the more powerful army at the moment (especially head to head) theres something that riles about the new army book for them. Just isn't inspiring me to go forth and play like the old one did when i first got my mitts on it many many years ago now...

Esco Thomson
18-03-2008, 14:36
Getting the second SSC shot is rather tricky really. I mean you need Los to your SSC don't you? I know your TK/TP won't be facing(scratch that, they won't even be in range) of your catapult which leaves you what, maybe one Lich actually facing the catapult? Plus you have to do your spells in a certain order? I mean the TK are very weak at the moment and I hope they are redone after DE because I happen to own both DE and TK :D

Actually no. Smiting only requires you be within range, 12'' for LP/LHP, and 6'' for TK, TP obviously needing to be in the crew.

I personally don't seem to share the thoughts of TK being weak at all. Could they use some tweaks here and there? Of course. Most armies fall into that category. They should probably have the same blanket "undead" rules, such as the ward and regen saves for combat, and steeds gaining ethereal movement.

Moepho
18-03-2008, 15:28
As a former Tk player I can easily say that VC magic far outstrips TK especially with the new book.

Yes, TK spells are always cast, but they are soooo weak they are easily shut down by any army with moderate dispel dice and couple of scrolls.

If you shut the TK down in the magic phase the whole army is basically neutered as you don't get the speed and amount of attack dice you need to overcome fights so you don't crumble.

This is why the "competitive" TK build these days is a Queen Khalida gunline as you can't rely on getting your incantations off reliably even with max liche priests...

It will be interesting to see what changes they make when they finally get around to a rework of the current army book.

Lord Raneus
19-03-2008, 02:02
Vampires seem a bit overpowered in general to me now, to be honest. :\

Draconian77
19-03-2008, 09:45
One thing I always noted about TK was their vulrenabilty to magic. Most of the time I saw 1 Tk, 1 Tp and 2 Liches running around. 4 Dispel Dice and maybe 1-2 scrolls, not useless just not great in an army that tries to dominate the magic phase.

Not actually having played TK for years(DE stole my heart you see...) I had forgotten that no LOS was required. Either way I think getting the extra shot off would be difficult. I mean, you are still talking about maybe 2 attempts to cast it and you have to do it in order...

Gazak Blacktoof
19-03-2008, 12:17
The way I've always seen it is that tomb kings need to use their magic to move. Magically firing the SSC is a way to draw out dispel scrolls, nothing more.

CarlostheCraven
19-03-2008, 15:27
Hi

Tomb King magic really isn't about the raising - sure its nice, but its not meant to be the focus of your magic. Their magic is meant for augmenting a solid combined arms list, and it does that very well.

Vampire Counts are very much about the raising and therefore should be more efficient than the TK. VC magic also possesses more offensive capability in and of itself, but I think an additional catapult shot is at least as useful the gaze of nagash or the curse.

Cheers,
Carlos the Craven

Draconian77
19-03-2008, 15:32
The thing is though most of the TK units die very quickly and they have to rely on their raising. I mean look at their chariots for example. In my average DE list I would have 2 units of Archers and 2 Bolt throwers. Even with that paltry amount of firepower I would be confident of destroying the chariot unit(in total, so they cannot be raised) in 1 turn. Same with Ushabti.

The VK counts have no heavy hitting unit that is easy to take out due to the fact that their heavy hitters are Vampires hiding in blocks of static combat res. Much safer army build, much more forgiving than TK imho.

CarlostheCraven
19-03-2008, 15:50
Hi

I don't want to get into mathhammer, and its definitely OT, but I can't resist

Lets say I am foolish enough to place my chariots/ushabti somewhere between 13-24 inches of all your shooting without wittling them down at all, and your 2 xbow units are 10 strong:
40 shots -1 long range, -1 repeating - 14 hits, 5 wounds, 2 saves - one chariot dies.
12 bolt-thrower shots - 8 hit, 4 wound - 1.3 chariots die.
Total - 2.3 dead chariots/ushabti
By the numbers, you fail to kill a minimum sized unit, let alone a unit of 4-12.
(of course there are a number of other factors that should enter into this equation - your magic, my shooting, magic, etc, but I am using the limitations of your example)


After you do ths damage, I have to consider - do I care enough about my small unit of chariots to pour magic into them? OR do I care enough about the small losses to my large unit of chariots to restore two of them? Mostly, I doubt it. The small unit is doing its job (distraction) and the large unit is still effective - I will push for movement and attacks/shots in my magic phase, not restoring units. I need to punish the enemy more than I need to keep my stuff alive.

Cheers,
Carlos the Craven

Draconian77
19-03-2008, 16:28
Now I have to get involved.

My RxB squads are 15 strong so that they can reform into a mediocre fighting block when needed. Adds about 3 wounds.

I have yet to see a Chariot unit of over 3 models. Maybe 3+a TP/TK but never 4 basic chariots. Once the basic chariots are dead he cannot res them.

A thing to note is that the chariots are very often the only fast element I see in TK lists and and therefore the the most likely to get shot at. (I play a gunlin/magic heavy DE list with counter attack, hurrah!)


"After you do ths damage, I have to consider - do I care enough about my small unit of chariots to pour magic into them? OR do I care enough about the small losses to my large unit of chariots to restore two of them? Mostly, I doubt it. The small unit is doing its job (distraction) and the large unit is still effective - I will push for movement and attacks/shots in my magic phase, not restoring units. I need to punish the enemy more than I need to keep my stuff alive."

I find this to be a little naive. If I can kill a chariot unit a turn with that shooting then you don't have the choice to res them. I don't understand your concept of small unit/large unit? As in he has a unit of 3 chariots and a unit of 4? Do the people you play against use 5+ chariots in a unit? That would just be ineffecient...

Push all you want your magic throws out about the same PD as I have DD and I have scrolls + the abilty to ignore some of your spells each turn. It is a rare turn were the TK player actually has all of his spellcasters in premier positions normally due to the fact that he is trying to get stuck in before my shooting starts denting his heavy hitting(but fragile) squads.

Mazdug
19-03-2008, 16:34
The problem with TK is that their "relentless nature" as its reffered to in the tactica that they include in the back of the book, is totally reliant on magic, and with current power creep, their magic really isn't all that good, especially compared to the VC. TK absolutly must, at all times, be getting off spells, or they move slower then dwarves, in addition to this, most of their troops are crap in combat, so they need full ranks, standard, and outnumber, to do well, and thus, raising them is important. The ability to get that extra round of close combat or the extra shot off are both nice, but they are really more of an "icing the cake" then anything else. Always hitting on 5+ is nice, but str3 is near useless against most units, especially if only one third of the shots ever hit. Also, for an army built around "reliable" troops, all the units that have the "it came from below" rule have a chance of giving the enemy free VP and doing nothing, with no chance to heal or reraise them. I think TK need a big fix, especially in playing head to head against VC, who can outclass them in every dept aside from shooting. At the very least, I would suggest the following.
-increase the range of all spells.
-remove the "destroyed" option from "it came from below"
-make the basic skellie cheaper.
-change invocation of righteous smiting to allow a full extra round of combat, not just 1 attack per model
-BoneGiant optional rules to become official
-I think LPs should get either more spells per turn, or cast their existing spells on more dice. Also, they need either cheaper dispel scrolls, more dispel dice, or the casket of souls to do more then just a -1 to cast.

Draconian77
19-03-2008, 16:44
The fixes I want to see if/when the new TK come out are:

The save of chariots going up to 4+.
Ushabti getting M6 like nearly all other Ogre sized models.
The Bone Giant becoming much cheaper or much better.
Basic skellies cheaper(same as vamp skellies?)
Longer range spells.
A more potent but non abusable magic phase.(Even being able to add the basic 2 PD to 1 incantation a turn would be nice although it might just get scrolled for 3 turns in a row...)
Crumbling takes effect when all the Liche Priests are dead, not just the Heirophant.
Leads on to the removal of the Heirophant rule.
Change the Skeleton Heavy Horsemen and Light Horsemen to something else rulewise.


I play my TK as a infantry based grind army. (Tk in TG, Tp in TG)

CarlostheCraven
19-03-2008, 17:10
Hi

Ahhh, well, and additional 20 shots certainly changes the math, to just enough to kill the min size unit. In that case you are right, and your opponent is foolish for trying to rush you with such a unit unsupported. If he had a similar points value in chariots - 3 units of three and one unit of 4 - all moving in together, your shooting would be overrun, though not wthout doing substantial damage first.

As for my perspective - Chariot Heavy Tomb Kings features two very large blocks of chariots - 8-12 plus characters, plus 3-4 units of 4 to 6 chariots. If you are using chariots for anything other than a distraction/fluff inclusion, you need units of 4+. I find it terribly inefficient to spend points on a unit that cannot standup any amount of shooting. you are far better off to buy 2-3 additional chariots such that you will be able to weather the storm and then crush your foe.

I think that it is naive to assume that your opponent is incompitent, although that may be your experience. There is no need for a tomb king player to move into range of your xbows with anything valuable prior to tomb swarms and scorpions arriving to disrupt your battle line.

Sorry to everyone else for straying so far of the OT.

Cheers,
Carlos the Craven

Draconian77
19-03-2008, 17:51
Don't worry about being OT, I'm around which means we are heading off topic anyway. :angel:


Your saying 2 units of 8 min+chars(9x2 = 18) and 3 units of 4 min(3x4 =12) for a total of 30 chariots?

Ok, with all due respect, do you actually see that as being the main chariot heavy option of TK? When I see "Chariot heavy" TK it generally means 3 units of 3-4.



"I think that it is naive to assume that your opponent is incompitent, although that may be your experience. There is no need for a tomb king player to move into range of your xbows with anything valuable prior to tomb swarms and scorpions arriving to disrupt your battle line."

That comment bordered on insulting. I will pass it off for now...

But on a tactical note if I can keep his units away from certain areas of the board im already at a huge advantage. Also Swarms and Scorps are less than reliable and rarely disrupt a battleine in any meaningful way, much less so if your opponent has failed to advance due to a fear of taking casualties from shooting.


Ahhh, well, and additional 20 shots certainly changes the math, to just enough to kill the min size unit. In that case you are right, and your opponent is foolish for trying to rush you with such a unit unsupported. If he had a similar points value in chariots - 3 units of three and one unit of 4 - all moving in together, your shooting would be overrun, though not wthout doing substantial damage first.

My shooting has yet to be overun by chariot rush... Due in part to me having a few chariots as counter attack but mainly due to my lord choice, a Gauntlet of Power wearing Highborn on a Dark Steed. Often charges in single handedly against chariot units and destroys them all in a single round. A brilliant unit, I did a tactica for him a while back on D.net. Kills small units of cavalry, assassinates, kills flyers, skirmishers, chariots, ogre-monsters(from the flank).

CarlostheCraven
19-03-2008, 18:36
Hi


"I think that it is naive to assume that your opponent is incompitent, although that may be your experience. There is no need for a tomb king player to move into range of your xbows with anything valuable prior to tomb swarms and scorpions arriving to disrupt your battle line."

That comment bordered on insulting. I will pass it off for now...


Just returning the favour. You implied the same of me. Let's call it even ;)

Regardless, we could continue this endlessly, but unless we actually played each other, I am afraid that none of it really matters.

Cheers,
Carlos the Craven

Draconian77
19-03-2008, 18:47
Bah, I missed my chance for a 3 page debate, what a shame. :angel:


Then even we shall be. (For now, cue whatever overly dramatic and totally inapropriate music we all imagine upon hearing those fabled words.)

Don't suppose you live in Ireland?


~Drac

TheDarkDuke
20-03-2008, 00:06
[QUOTE=GodHead;2446468]Ok, 2 catapults and a unit of archers that shoot "twice a turn" would require a substantial character investment as well as relying on magic.

you do realise tomb kings are one of the few armies that pretty much need to invest in characters and magic right?

TheJo0vler
20-03-2008, 01:08
Im a VC and a TK player and to me the single worse thing about the vampire book was the ability to heal every unit.

Some changes for TK i like

Bone giant: Either cheaper or WS4 + the options for extra weapons in which case he would be fair priced.
Skeletons: cheaper(1point) or free light armour.
Ushabti: MV6 (otherwise fine)
Scorp: small price increase
SSC: no changes (maybe something to protect from misfire, to emphasise the reliableness of TK, in which case a points increase)

Icon bearer needs a changing, not sure how, maybe a free bound spell, possibly a heal construct only bound spell?

TP small points decrease, LP points decrease or magic power increase.

horsemen are very bad atm. and casket needs something to protect it from one MR unit from shutting it down.

Well that was OT, sorry.

One thing i dont like is the difference between a Hero vampire and a TP, for the same price!

Draconian77
20-03-2008, 08:20
The TP is actually very good. T5 3 wounds on a hero? Add a ward save and a great weapon and you can reliably beat down most other heroes... And even if you do get wounded you could always try healing him...

Blood_Pact
21-03-2008, 17:06
I understand that it sucks out some of the uniqueness of the TK spellcasting method, I think the changes they made to Necromancers were a necessary and balanced one.

The 6th Ed Vampire Counts had to roll for all their spells, meaning you may not get the spells you need unless you had a large number if wizards. I'd usually play an army that leaned more toward being hard hitting that magical dominance, but I always took 2 level 2 Necromancers to help make sure someone would have Vanhel's Danse.

Even though they're stuck beiong lvl 1 wizards, I like the new Necromancers more. The three spells they have to chose from are pretty much the most essential ones for the vampire army, plus they can buy more if you want to, and can cast those spells more than once. It does step on the TK's toes, but it also means that VC aren't left at the mercy of the dice to see if they have the spells they need.

And an explanation for why the TK seem less powerful now could be that their Army Book was made during 6th edition, and that their new one will take advantage of the revisions that have been made. It has also been pointed out that they are far from weak.

And honestly, I think the skeleton bowman are pretty wicked, I wish Vampire Counts could get them. I can't really believe that people are saying that the 'always hit on a 5+' special rule isn't any good, they must be comparing them to Elves, or other elite ranged units, for all I can tell. Because the vast majority of units with shooting are BS 3, which means anything they fire at over half-range will be making them hit on 5+. The skeleton bowman can never count on hitting at anything better, but cover, special rules, and magic can never make it anything worse.

Mazdug
21-03-2008, 17:20
The skeleton bowman aren't bad, but they aren't that good either. The problem is that mediocre but consistant shooting doesn't deal with anything that TK need a lot of help with. Its useful for taking down unarmoured low toughness opponents, but thats about the only thing skellie units can beat in hand to hand. And if you compare them to other missile troops (that actually see the battlefield, not Arrer boys), they balance out on the low end of things. Handguns can actually kill tough/armoured opponents, elven archery hits way more often(and in some cases harder), skinks get poison, etc... I'm not going to say don't take them, because I think they are actually rather useful for certain things. but I don't think they are as good as a lot of people make them out to be.