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wizuriel
17-03-2008, 17:50
Hey. How strict is 40k with WYSIWYG? Pretty much interested in starting yet not that much a fan of the looks of any race. Rule wise I tried the sisters of battle and liked their play style.

so was thinking of making somekind of race of space paladins. Use things like a lizardman space pope.

so as long as I have a consistant theme and use the right weaons and stuff would this kind of army be acceptable?


edit: pretty much in terms of 40k I don't want to be human or anything thats like fantasy. which imo leaves just nids, tau and necrons. Already have 3 nids and tau players and don't like the look of necrons (they seem like a boring army)

Ravenheart
17-03-2008, 17:54
Hey. How strict is 40k with WYSIWYG?

Is as strict as the person you play against.

Just make sure you explain to your opponent what your army and the specifics minatures count as, and are equiped with. There should be enough open minded players who would agree with this, I'm sure.

Turnaments on the other hand, are a stricter most of the time.

The Song of Spears
17-03-2008, 17:59
WYSIWYG requires :
GW models
no mixed models (so whatever is representing a las cannon has to be the same throughout the whole army)
Each piece of wargear is modeled on at leas a few of the models in each unit (i.e. if the unit has frag grenades then at least a few models in that unit should have frag grenades)

Thats it. Follow those and you are tourney legal. believe it or not you can use Tyranids models and the Space Marines codex and as long as you follow the above rules, you are just fine.

Bookwrak
17-03-2008, 18:01
What you want to do is referred to as 'counts as.' The important thing is to be clear and consistent with what you're doing.

intellectawe
17-03-2008, 18:07
WYSIWYG requires :
GW models
no mixed models (so whatever is representing a las cannon has to be the same throughout the whole army)
Each piece of wargear is modeled on at leas a few of the models in each unit (i.e. if the unit has frag grenades then at least a few models in that unit should have frag grenades)

Thats it. Follow those and you are tourney legal. believe it or not you can use Tyranids models and the Space Marines codex and as long as you follow the above rules, you are just fine.

Which isn't 100% true.

1) First off, there is no such thing as WYSIWYG. It is a myth. The only instance of this mythical rule is in Apocalypse.

2) Tourney legal is a myth also. Don't blanket ALL tourneys with this mythical WYSIWYG rule. The Necronomican, an OFFICIAL U.S. GT is 100% sponsored by GW, has GW reps at the show every year, and is as official a tourney as you'll get....

But the Necro allows non GW models to be used. Thats right. You can use models from other lines of toy makers if you want, as long as there is NO confusion to your opponent what you are using. People show up with entire armies from lines that mimic GW toys, but aren't GW toys.

So yes, it is important to play fair and not confuse/cheat your opponent, but don't et caught up on this WYSIWYG myth.

Lord Inquisitor
17-03-2008, 18:10
What you are talking about is a "counts as" army, which are typically legal for tournaments.

So if you make a Slaan space-paladin army, that's pretty cool. Almost everyone loves cool-looking armies. The critical things are as follows:
Golden Rule: your opponent doesn't get confused.
- Make sure troops look roughly similar to the troops they are representing. So if you are using something to "counts as" terminators, make sure they're big and heavily armoured!
- Make sure that you do not use something that already exists in the army list as something else. If you're going to use arco-flaggelants, then don't use them as "counts as" repentia.
- Make sure that if you have a new troop type (space paladin) and you "counts as" them as sisters of battle, don't use them as a different troop type as well - e.g. using space paladins as guard as well (unless they are obviously different in some way, e.g. less armoured).
- Explain very carefully what all of your non-standard models are before the game, perhaps even produce a reference sheet if your army is really wacky.

Spacker
17-03-2008, 20:48
1) First off, there is no such thing as WYSIWYG. It is a myth. The only instance of this mythical rule is in Apocalypse.

Are you sure?

Codex: Space Marines, page 27: "you cannot usually field models that are equipped with weapons and wargear not shown on the model".

Codex: Dark Angels page 77 (and CSM page 89): "Any upgrades that are taken must be shown on the model"

Codex: Imperial Guard, page 37: "you cannot field models that are equipped with weapons and wargear not shown on the model"

You'll find similar rules in each codex. Those sure look like references to WYSIWYG to me.

:)

As to what "The Song of Spears" posted, that's a summary of the GW Grand Tournament rules, another place where you find the WYSIWYG rule. Just because it's only in the GT rules, and not all other tourneys, doesn't make it a myth.


Anyway, back to the OP: most players should be ok with "counts as", but it's always worth checking ahead of time if you're playing at a club/store/tournament, I'd be surprised if any didn't allow it but it's better to be safe than turn up and not be able to play.

Captin Korea!
17-03-2008, 21:15
My friends use proxy models all the time, I never have a problem, I don't know who would.

intellectawe
17-03-2008, 21:42
Are you sure?

Codex: Space Marines, page 27: "you cannot usually field models that are equipped with weapons and wargear not shown on the model".

Which is a codex rule, not a basic game rule. Notice the word 'usually' there too.


Codex: Dark Angels page 77 (and CSM page 89): "Any upgrades that are taken must be shown on the model"

Another codex rule, not basic game rule.


Codex: Imperial Guard, page 37: "you cannot field models that are equipped with weapons and wargear not shown on the model"

Another codex rule, not basic game rule.


You'll find similar rules in each codex.

Point them out please.


Those sure look like references to WYSIWYG to me.

You are right! Now show me the basic game rule where it says to have WYSIWYG? This is what I meant.

:)


As to what "The Song of Spears" posted, that's a summary of the GW Grand Tournament rules, another place where you find the WYSIWYG rule. Just because it's only in the GT rules, and not all other tourneys, doesn't make it a myth.

And I have shown you a GT which doesn't care for WYSIWYG. So yes, it is a myth, as you flatly stated 'tourney'. Which means all tourneys played in the world. My LGS doesn't work that way, so it is NOT all tourneys.


Anyway, back to the OP: most players should be ok with "counts as", but it's always worth checking ahead of time if you're playing at a club/store/tournament, I'd be surprised if any didn't allow it but it's better to be safe than turn up and not be able to play.

Many players have been playing their Marines as 'counts as Marines with Grenades' for how many years :)

So let me get this straight.... It is ok to play with both WYSIWYG and 'Counts as" Right? OK, lets see the hypocrisy here...

Bob "I have a Marine army!"
Joe "Why are all your marines Skaven?"
bob "Well, I am using Skaven as 'Counts as' Marines! I can do that!"
Joe "You sure can! So show me which Marine has a Lascannon?"
bob "Oh, this one here. I am 'counting as' this magical spear as a lascannon!"
Joe "Right.... Show me the Lascannon"
Bob "I did! Its that spear!"
Joe "No, you showed me a Spear. I want to know where your Lascannon model is"
Bob "I did! Cry Cry Cry!"
Joe "Well, you have to follow What You See Is What You Get, according to the tourney rules. I see a Spear. I don't see a lsacannon. You got a Spear. Too bad"
bob "But I read on the interwebs I could wawawawhahahahahahwa CRY!"

Well, clearly WYSIWYG cancels out 'Counts As'. You can only play with one rule' ever at anyone one time. You can never play with both 'rules'. It is impossible.

TheBigBadWolf
17-03-2008, 21:48
It depends on who you are playing, ive got a bear in my SM army (part of the fluff), and he is a count as terminator with lightning claws, never had a prob yet

Cirenivel
17-03-2008, 22:45
Point them out please.



Codex:Witch Hunters P.20: "All wargear must be represented on the model."
Codex: Dark Eldar P.6: "All wargear an weapons chosen must be represented on the model."
Codex: Daemonhunters P.16: "All wargear and weapons must be represented on the model."
Codex:Eldar P.59: "Remember that you cannot field models with weapons or wargear shown on the model."
Codex:Orks P.94: "Any upgrades that are taken must be shown on the model if possible."

Etc.






And I have shown you a GT which doesn't care for WYSIWYG. So yes, it is a myth, as you flatly stated 'tourney'. Which means all tourneys played in the world. My LGS doesn't work that way, so it is NOT all tourneys.


Well, I wouldn't call it a myth, as "In popular use, a myth is something that is widely thought to be false. This usage, which is often pejorative, arose from labeling the religious myths and beliefs of other cultures as being incorrect, but it has spread to cover non-religious beliefs as well.... This usage is frequently confused with Legend, Fiction, Fairytale, Folklore, Fable, and Urban Legend, each of which has a distinct meaning in academia"

So no, WYSIWYG is not a myth, as something doesn't become a myth just because it is not true in 100% of all cases.
It has also been pointed out that there are, infact, statements in the Codeci that you weapons and wargear must be represented on the models. Therefore it is not a myth, but a fact.





So let me get this straight.... It is ok to play with both WYSIWYG and 'Counts as" Right? OK, lets see the hypocrisy here...

...

Well, clearly WYSIWYG cancels out 'Counts As'. You can only play with one rule' ever at anyone one time. You can never play with both 'rules'. It is impossible.


Yeah sure, but your example isn't the best there is.
If he had a skaven with a spear, and no other skaven/marine had a spear, then sure, why not?

What's a different deal is when:

Bob "I have a marine army!"
Joe "okay. Let's play"
Bob "okay, i will fire my heavy bolter dude at your guardsmen"
Joe "but bob, wasn't that a lascannon last round?"
Bob "I don't think so Joe. Can't you see that this is a heavy bolter (points towards a marine with a blob where it gun used to be)"
Joe (cry) "but you killed my leman russ with it last round, from the front!"

Etc.

There's no reason not to use counts as, just as long as everything is clear on what it is.


Cirenivel

Imperialis_Dominatus
17-03-2008, 22:50
So let me get this straight.... It is ok to play with both WYSIWYG and 'Counts as" Right? OK, lets see the hypocrisy here...

Bob "I have a Marine army!"
Joe "Why are all your marines Skaven?"
bob "Well, I am using Skaven as 'Counts as' Marines! I can do that!"
Joe "You sure can! So show me which Marine has a Lascannon?"
bob "Oh, this one here. I am 'counting as' this magical spear as a lascannon!"
Joe "Right.... Show me the Lascannon"
Bob "I did! Its that spear!"
Joe "No, you showed me a Spear. I want to know where your Lascannon model is"
Bob "I did! Cry Cry Cry!"
Joe "Well, you have to follow What You See Is What You Get, according to the tourney rules. I see a Spear. I don't see a lsacannon. You got a Spear. Too bad"
bob "But I read on the interwebs I could wawawawhahahahahahwa CRY!"

Well, clearly WYSIWYG cancels out 'Counts As'. You can only play with one rule' ever at anyone one time. You can never play with both 'rules'. It is impossible.

I suppose that it would depend on what was being counted as what, and whether that was believable. For example, a model with a bolter in each hand could conceivably count as having a storm bolter. However, your example of a Skaven with a glowy spear counting as a Space Marine with a Lascannon is perhaps apt in showing the propensity of people to take anything to stupid extremes (especially when the internet is involved).

intellectawe
17-03-2008, 23:03
For me, only a stupid person would say two bolters counted as a storm bolter.

Because I can just say, well, what I am seeing is what I am getting, and I see two bolters. That is illegal, so he can only have one bolter.

Repeated...


Well, clearly WYSIWYG cancels out 'Counts As'. You can only play with one rule' ever at anyone one time. You can never play with both 'rules'. It is impossible.



So no, WYSIWYG is not a myth, as something doesn't become a myth just because it is not true in 100% of all cases.

It is a myth. People online cry both WYSIWYG and 'Counts As'. You can't have both, but, on Warseer, WYSIWYG it toted around like it is a Religion. A Myth. People blindly following what other lemming say 'just because' it must be!



Yeah sure, but your example isn't the best there is.
If he had a skaven with a spear, and no other skaven/marine had a spear, then sure, why not?

Because of WYSIWYG. I see a spear, the marine player doesn't get a lascannon.


There's no reason not to use counts as, just as long as everything is clear on what it is.

Yes there is, and YOU just gave a ton of codex examples as to why. It is called WYSIWYG.

Bob Hunk
17-03-2008, 23:13
Using the rules but not the models? That's a new one, in my experience of 40k people usually want to use the models but not the rules! ;)

To the OP, I think everyone else has answered your original question - consistency is the name of the game. :) Space lizard paladins sounds like an awesome idea, good luck!

catbarf
17-03-2008, 23:17
For me, only a stupid person would say two bolters counted as a storm bolter.

Yes, totally illogical that two Bolters should be used to represent a weapon that is- lo and behold- two Bolters welded together.

Cirenivel
17-03-2008, 23:22
For me, only a stupid person would say two bolters counted as a storm bolter.

Because I can just say, well, what I am seeing is what I am getting, and I see two bolters. That is illegal, so he can only have one bolter.


Well, I can't say that I would like playing against you, if that's how you want to play the game. Calling people stupid for doing something with a model that has no real meaning other than looking cool.





It is a myth. People online cry both WYSIWYG and 'Counts As'. You can't have both, but, on Warseer, WYSIWYG it toted around like it is a Religion. A Myth. People blindly following what other lemming say 'just because' it must be!



The problem is that it isn't a myth. Look in your codex, it should say that you will need to represent weapons and wargear on the model that has it.
There you go, no myth.

Also, you must remember the difference of WYSIWYG and "counts as".
WYSIWYG makes sure that what a model has in the rules is represented on the model. As long as there's no way to misinterpretate (spelling, anyone?) what a model has, there's no problem.

Counts as is purely for the artistic, asthetic reasons. To make it possible for players to customize their armies.

For example:
A marine with a heavy bolter should be a marine with a heavy bolter.
However, an ork with a shuriken cannon isn't nessecarly an ork with a shuriken cannon, but for example an ork loota.




Because of WYSIWYG. I see a spear, the marine player doesn't get a lascannon.


now, we must remember that your example isn't the best.
It just shows how silly some people may be.



Yes there is, and YOU just gave a ton of codex examples as to why. It is called WYSIWYG.

I think that you're misinterpretating the word represented.
Represented suggests that the model in question must have a weapon (or wargear) that has a smiliar apearance/effect etc. Not that it must have that and only that.

Cirenivel

Moriarty
18-03-2008, 00:03
As long as you are consistent in your substitutions, go for it. Sounds as good a theme as any.

Lord Inquisitor
18-03-2008, 00:06
All of this is why 40K needs a proper "counts as" rule in 5th edition, just as there is in Epic. JJ wrote the epic version of the rule, hopefully we'll see it in 40K.

ZigZagMan
18-03-2008, 01:55
Sooooo your ok with a skaven "counting as" a powered armor marine, but NOT a magical spear counting as a weapon with the same range and damage as a lascannon?

Imperialis_Dominatus
18-03-2008, 03:29
Yes, totally illogical that two Bolters should be used to represent a weapon that is- lo and behold- two Bolters welded together.

More or less my reasoning... :eyebrows: Chill, intellectawe.

Kettu
18-03-2008, 04:23
My brother and I have plans to start a Covenant army (Of Halo fame) by mix-matching Eldar and Tau bits and using Black Templar rules.

The ideas for the moment are:
Emperor's Champ = Arbiter
Marine = Elite
Scout = Grunt (Tough grunts)

Etc...

Following the (almost never reinforced) rules for proxy minis as set by my local GW (Which happens to be the same rules as Aus GT) we aim to keep the army consistent.

Also at my local there is a guy who has an army of Jawa-esque guys which are Night goblins holding empire rifles using IG rules. Third Edition has a picture of one in the BGB.

As said multiple times on the thread, just make sure your opponent knows what is what and all should be fine.

And yes, I have had someone explain that all the swords carried by his imps were lasguns but all powerswords were as is. (He converted most for the CC special rules you can give the army before deciding he didn’t like it)

I had to scrutinize each and every one of his guys just to make sure I didn't miss any.

(Then my sisters flame roasted most of them on turn three)

Spacker
18-03-2008, 07:38
Which is a codex rule, not a basic game rule. Notice the word 'usually' there too.

Notice it's also an early 4th ed codex. All the new format ones state weapons and wargear must be shown, which is why I quoted CSM and DA too.



Point them out please.

Already been done.



You are right! Now show me the basic game rule where it says to have WYSIWYG? This is what I meant.

So given that you can't play the game without a codex, how do you not have WYSIWYG in the game? It doesn't matter if the rulebook doesn't state, every codex does. Codexes contain rules too, don't they?



And I have shown you a GT which doesn't care for WYSIWYG. So yes, it is a myth, as you flatly stated 'tourney'.

I didn't state it. That was my first post in this thread. And as already pointed out to you, WYSIWYG would only be a myth if it didn't exist anywhere, and I've already proved it does exist in more than one place.



Which means all tourneys played in the world. My LGS doesn't work that way, so it is NOT all tourneys.


I never said it was. Does your LGS also not use codexes though? I guess your LGS has a "house rule" to ignore what's written in the codexes. That's fine, but it's not a universal core rule, unless you can show me a rule in the rulebook that states that you ignore those relevant parts of the codexes.




Many players have been playing their Marines as 'counts as Marines with Grenades' for how many years :)

Because it's generally accepted that grenades would be kept in pouches, as that was what the old GT rules stated. So now you're saying that an old, out of date GT rule is perfectly fine, but a current one isn't? It's effectively a "house rule", unless you can show a rule in either the codexes or the rulebook stating that you don't have to show grenades on the models. Ooo, I know what I can say here: it's a myth that you don't have to model grenades. :)



So let me get this straight.... It is ok to play with both WYSIWYG and 'Counts as" Right? OK, lets see the hypocrisy here...

No hypocrisy. WYSIWYG merely states that you must show everything you've taken. "Counts as" lets you proxy items. As an example, you turn up with an IG and state that all the bolters shown on models are actually hellguns. This satisfies both "counts as" and WYSIWYG so long as there are no models holding bolters that are not counting them as hellguns. What you could not do is then halfway through the game go "oh, and here's Frank, he's got a bolter but it's actually a plasma gun". So long as it's clear which each proxy is, then you can satisfy both WYSIWYG and "counts as".

It's even simpler in the GT rules - "counts as" overrides WYSIWYG, but you have to make it very clear up front what the proxies are and you can't go mixing things (see the bit about bolters above).

And then there's the more relaxed friendly play, which tends not to enforce WYSIWYG as strictly as the codexes state it - which I'm guessing you know all about because it sounds as though that's how you think all games are played anyway. Hopefully I've gone a little way to showing that there isn't a myth about WYSIWYG; I've shown you were the evidence is so you can read up for yourself rather than taking me, or anyone else, at their word, but ultimately it's up to you to realise it for yourself.

Snowfire
18-03-2008, 10:10
Just to add my 2 cents.

The store I play at enforces WYSIWYG. If its not shown on your model, you dont get to use it. It has caused a few Power Gamers to convert their models to show things they use all the time.

Its alot of fun as well, because some of the conversions are really interesting.

Bookwrak
18-03-2008, 10:32
"I see a skaven with a _magic_ spear that shoots laser beams."
"I see Intellectawe's silly strawman spectacularly implode!"
"Game on!"

I don't know what bug crawled up his nose, but WYSIWYG and counts as are perfectly compatible. To use a less silly example, your space skaven count as IG, with warp lightning guns standind in for lascannons. Every time you see a warp lightning gun, you know you're getting a lascannon.Every jezzail you see on the board you know is an autocannon.