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MikeRC97
18-03-2008, 04:16
Sorry if this was already discussed (I searched this forum but did not see any previous threads). I'm just getting into WH40k and I'm planning a Blood Angels army list before I go out and start buying models so I can start assembling & painting. It seems that the new edition will have a lot changes that will affect my planned BA army list. This was the 1,000 point list I planned on using for weeknight games at my local GW:

HQ: Lemartes
Elites: DC (3 free +2) w/ JP
Elites: VAS (5) w/ PF, FL & MG
Troops: 2 x Tac Squad (10) w/ PF, MG & LC + Rhino

My plan was to combat squad the tac squads, load the PF & MG into the rhinos, use them as cover for the DC and VAS and fire support with the LCs. Here are the rumors that have me rethinking my list:

Run - really makes the rhino for tac squads less necessary at 40 pts each, especially now that those tac squads will give a +4 cover save to those assault squads running into position behind them (i.e. meatshield tac squads).

Wound allocation - makes 5 man combat squads with a vet sgt with PF less viable than 10 man squads with 2 special weapons (FL & MG).

Troops only scoring units - this is a tough one - I really wanted to use the DC and VAS squads as my decisive units but this change is making me rethink this, especially if the tac squads are meatshields for the elites.

Based on these changes I thought about switching to this list:

HQ: Lemartes
Elites: DC (3 free +5) w/ JP
Troops: 2 x Tac Squad (10) w/ FL & MG
Troops: RAS (10) w/ PF

I hate to give up the VAS, and I'm worried about the lack of long range AT by dropping the LC combat squads. I've come up with a third list that keeps the VAS but adds heavy support:

HQ: Lemartes
Elites: DC (3 free +2) w/ JP
Elites: VAS (5) w/ PF, FL & MG
Troops: 2 x Tac Squad (10) w/ FL & MG
Heavy: Dev Squad (5) w/ 4 ML

This list seems much more balanced but might not have the troops left at the end to take and hold objectives.

If anyone is still reading at this point I really appreciate some feedback on these lists. I'm eager to start my army but I don't want to buy the models until I'm sure I've got an army that can win a few games when the 5th edition comes out. Thanks!

The Dude
18-03-2008, 04:47
Run - really makes the rhino for tac squads less necessary at 40 pts each, especially now that those tac squads will give a +4 cover save to those assault squads running into position behind them (i.e. meatshield tac squads).

The increased survivability and guaranteed speed of transports ensures they are still a viable unit. Plus they can positively fly across the board if you manage to get a bit of road on there.


Wound allocation - makes 5 man combat squads with a vet sgt with PF less viable than 10 man squads with 2 special weapons (FL & MG).

This is a risk all Marines will have to take when using Combat Squads. At least it’s a choice you can make depending at the start of the game depending on your opponent.


Troops only scoring units - this is a tough one - I really wanted to use the DC and VAS squads as my decisive units but this change is making me rethink this, especially if the tac squads are meatshields for the elites.

It saddens me that you are wanting to use the proud Sons of Sanguinus as “meatshields” for their doomed brothers. Why not do it the other way around? Especially since the Death Company have Feel No Pain ;).

Having Rhinos will also give you the opportunity to redeploy to objectives quickly, and Combat Squads gives you more scoring units if needed.

I really don’t think the list you posted would have any real trouble under 5th. Rather than thinking about how to change your list to suit the tactics you’ve thought up, try thinking about how you can use the list you’ve thought up differently. You admitted you wanted to keep the Veteran Assault Squad, so why compromise what you want just because it isn’t easy? Make it work, and it will feel all the sweeter :).

Halfpast_Yellow
18-03-2008, 09:26
Overcharged vehicles providing cover to advancing assault squads/DC is one of the best core themes you can use in a modern BA list. I don't see running Tacsquads having nearly the same utility.

Infact with the new transport rules the synergy becomes even better.

MikeRC97
18-03-2008, 12:23
thanks for the replies - i agree it is sad to think of tac squads as meatshields, seems like such an ork concept.

As far as PF on vet sgt, is that still a good idea for combat squad tacs? I've read that 5th ed reduces the number of attacks for a PF + ccw by 1 and with would allocation that is an expensive model to lose early in a 1,000 point game.

Drek
18-03-2008, 12:45
Don't forget, in the 3rd mission, victory is determined by Kill Points. Your first list is 11 KP, your second is 8KP and your last has 11KP. You need to make sure your high KP units can do the job without being taken out.

Lemartes + DC will be fine. They can take a good deal of punishment. I am not sure the VAS can make its KP back at 5 men. If you really want to keep it, I would consider boosting the numbers a bit to give it more survivability.

I honestly like your second list the best. It has good speed with the tac squads pulling up the rear to get objectives. If you need to, you can have 6 objective taking units on the board in the first turn. Thats a lot of marines to have to kill to prevent objective taking.

Warsmith Strader
18-03-2008, 15:36
Why take transports at all? cause you will probably face some a**tards that will pull the RAW stuff out on your transports...
I can't believe GW forgot that on this army list.... stupid proofreaders! Someone ask GW why this happened this way? on purpose or accident?

RAS squads are the way to go!

MikeRC97
19-03-2008, 01:03
Why take transports at all? cause you will probably face some a**tards that will pull the RAW stuff out on your transports...
I can't believe GW forgot that on this army list.... stupid proofreaders! Someone ask GW why this happened this way? on purpose or accident?


What is the RAW stuff?

Warsmith Strader
19-03-2008, 01:17
What is the RAW stuff?


Rules as written. The entries for all transports(except LR's) don't have the access points and fire points listed in the entry. Myself I prefer Rules as intended, so the would have them... I just won't play people that are RAW mongers.

But that's just me!

MikeRC97
19-03-2008, 02:05
a**tards indeed. like i said i'm just getting into 40k so i've yet to encounter some of the more annoying players out there but i'm sure it is just a matter of time.

based on the feedback i've reworked my 1,000 point "5th ed" BA army list to look like this:

HQ: Lemartes
Elite: DC (3 free + 2) w/ JP
Troops: RAS w/ 5 add + PF
Troops: Tac Squad w/ 5 add FL, LC + Rhino
Troops: Tac Squad w/ 5 add MG, LC + Rhino

The Dude I like what you were saying but when I looked at the big picture the 5 man VAS squad was too much of a liability. I'm sticking to the original plan (w/ the additional of a 10 man scoring RAS that can go after objectives). Depending on the map the LC combat squads could even use the run rule to go for an objective(s) late in the game.

I'm pretty sure this army list has the speed and versatility to swarm a gun line army like IG or Tau (maybe swap the LCs for MLs), counter assault a SM or CSM army and has the AT to take on an Eldar Mech army. My only concern with this list is that it lacks the anti-infantry firepower for CC swarms like Orks and Nids. I'm thinking against those armies of losing the Rhinos and adding a Furioso Dreadnought and playing defensively. Is there any type of army that this list would struggle against under the 5th ed rules? For the record I'm trying to build a balanced army before I start assembling/painting not trying to power game or play RAW and take the fun out of the game ;)

The Dude
19-03-2008, 02:16
The Dude I like what you were saying but when I looked at the big picture the 5 man VAS squad was too much of a liability. I'm sticking to the original plan (w/ the additional of a 10 man scoring RAS that can go after objectives). Depending on the map the LC combat squads could even use the run rule to go for an objective(s) late in the game.

I suppose the difference is minimal, if you’re prepared to lose the special weapons. The only thing that irks me is that those Assault Marines will be Troops, something I hated from the minute I read the rumour.

I’m certainly hoping they go back to being FA in the “proper” Codex with the possible exception of if you take Dante.

If this happens you may find your tactics in need of a re-work, but I suppose by that time you will probably have a bit more than 1000pts worth ;)

MikeRC97
19-03-2008, 02:32
My only concern with this list is that it lacks the anti-infantry firepower for CC swarms like Orks and Nids. I'm thinking against those armies of losing the Rhinos and adding a Furioso Dreadnought and playing defensively. Is there any type of army that this list would struggle against under the 5th ed rules?

I just went back and checked the points and the 2 rhinos for a dreadnought obviously wouldnt work even unless I dropped a DC marine (which I really wouldn't do). So what I'm thinking is that when I assemble my 2 tac squads I'll assemble the HW marines with MLs for use against gun line armies, then I'll buy the devestator box for the 2 LCs marines (just paint the helmets red instead of BA dev squad blue). If I'm facing an army that likes to use mechs/armor I can swap one or two MLs for a LC. That leaves 2 more HW models which I want to assemble for anti-infantry (ork or nid), what would be better, HBs or PCs? Let me reiterate - I'm not trying to power game just build a flexible 1,000 point BA army under the new rules.

Oh and The Dude, once I'm ready to start playing tourneys and increase the size of this army you know the first thing I'm adding - MORE COWBELL! Then a VAS tricked out with all kinds of wargear, then more DC of course. Well maybe more DC first :)

The Dude
19-03-2008, 02:47
That leaves 2 more HW models which I want to assemble for anti-infantry (ork or nid), what would be better, HBs or PCs? Let me reiterate - I'm not trying to power game just build a flexible 1,000 point BA army under the new rules.

Heavy Bolters. They just look so SWEET! Nothing says you’re screwed like a crap-tin of Bolter rounds. PC’s whilst only 5pts more for Tacticals, are a bit of overkill for anti horde.


Oh and The Dude, once I'm ready to start playing tourneys and increase the size of this army you know the first thing I'm adding - MORE COWBELL! Then a VAS tricked out with all kinds of wargear, then more DC of course. Well maybe more DC first :)

What’s a cowbell got to do with it? :confused:

MikeRC97
19-03-2008, 02:49
Reference to a Will Farrell SNL skit, you had to be there. Yeah I'm thinking HBs too, the Get Hot rule has me nervous about using plasma weapons with such a small force.

Sweet thanks for all the help - if anyone sees a potential weakness in this last list please let me know. Thanks!

Azzy
19-03-2008, 02:54
What’s a cowbell got to do with it? :confused:

Blue Öyster Cult.

The Dude
19-03-2008, 02:56
Yes, curse my lack of knowledge of Americal Televison.

We get so much of the stuff here, but it seems the stuff that may actually be worth a look gets ignored :(

Occulto
19-03-2008, 03:35
Yes, curse my lack of knowledge of Americal Televison.

We get so much of the stuff here, but it seems the stuff that may actually be worth a look gets ignored :(

Google knows all:

http://webfeedcentral.com/2005/01/21/more-cowbell-video/

Matt_stanley75
19-03-2008, 03:42
The Dude

Assault squads as troops was the greatest boon given to we BA players. Don't knock it.

The Dude
19-03-2008, 03:49
The Dude

Assault squads as troops was the greatest boon given to we BA players. Don't knock it.

It was a boon that wasn’t needed and detracts from the background of the Blood Angels being a Codex-adherent chapter with the small divergences of the Death Company (out of necessity) and Veteran Assault Squads (out of preference).

The Blood Angels predilection for Jump Packs is sufficiently represented by the Veteran Assault Squad and Honour Guard. This already gives them the ability to field more Jump Pack troops than any other Chapter. They didn’t need Assault Squads moved to Troops.

As I said, I’m more than happy for it to be linked to a Special Character (Dante) like is the case with the Dark Angels and their Raven/Deathwings.

And don’t get me started on forced Death Company :p

MikeRC97
19-03-2008, 04:04
i'm thinking GW must have had the 5th ed started already when they released the BA Codex last year. It just made no sense to take a RAS over a VAS - 10 more points and you get 2 attacks per model and much better wargear options. But now with the scoring rules changes the VAS isn't such a no brainer (which was one of the points in my original post). I don't think GW will revise the BA Codex because it (and the DA Codex) were obviously written with the new rules in mind.

I think the BAs are one of the more versatile armies out there because they are so good at CC, they can play defensively and counter assault, use their mobility to flank oppenents in heavy cover or just go all out assault against exposed gunlines. I can't wait to get my BA army out on the tabletop!

Halfpast_Yellow
19-03-2008, 04:12
That last list could be a great BA 5th ed list IMO.

Valerian
19-03-2008, 04:24
Yeah I'm thinking HBs too, the Get Hot rule has me nervous about using plasma weapons with such a small force.


Mike,

There is no Gets Hot for Plasma Cannon anymore, as there is no roll to hit with them (auto scatter for all blast weapons).

Also, in one of your lists you considered giving your Tactical squads two special weapons (Flamers and Meltaguns) which isn't allowed in the BA codex.

Regards,

Valerian

The Dude
19-03-2008, 04:29
I think the BAs are one of the more versatile armies out there because they are so good at CC, they can play defensively and counter assault, use their mobility to flank oppenents in heavy cover or just go all out assault against exposed gunlines. I can't wait to get my BA army out on the tabletop!

This is precisely why I think it’s still a bad idea to have Assault Marines as Troops. Assault squads should be for clearing objectives, but the duty of holding them should continue to fall to Tactical Squads. If you let Assaulters hold objectives they will be able to make massed last turn assaults to clear and hold objectives.

All lists need a flaw, and basic Marine lists should be forced to use Tactical Marines to capture objectives.

This is, of course, my personal opinion :p


There is no Gets Hot for Plasma Cannon anymore, as there is no roll to hit with them (auto scatter for all blast weapons).

I suspect Gets Hot! will still come into play somehow.


Also, in one of your lists you considered giving your Tactical squads two special weapons (Flamers and Meltaguns) which isn't allowed in the BA codex.

I assumed he meant one with a Flamer, one with a Melta. Could be wrong though.

downundercadet07
19-03-2008, 04:30
I like the cut of your lists in general, but especially the second one, which I think has already generated some enthusiasm. That will have five scoring units in the new funky troops only missions, and it keeps the focus firmly on the troops which is good in a Space Marine force, especially a small one. Still, I wouldn't use the troops as meatshields for the jumpackers, you will likely be playing a smaller table in a 1000 point match, and terrain hopping will be a possibility. You know?

Wrath
19-03-2008, 10:12
I suspect Gets Hot! will still come into play somehow.


double 1 on the scatter maybe?

Souchan
19-03-2008, 11:25
I would suspect a double 6 on the scatter, as the thing heating up would explain why he lobbed it so far, or perhaps on any 10+ scatter result.

MikeRC97
19-03-2008, 12:24
Mike,

There is no Gets Hot for Plasma Cannon anymore, as there is no roll to hit with them (auto scatter for all blast weapons).

Also, in one of your lists you considered giving your Tactical squads two special weapons (Flamers and Meltaguns) which isn't allowed in the BA codex.

Regards,

Valerian

That was my miss, but in the end I think having HWs is the tac squad makes them so much more versatile (I'm using that word way too much but i think it is so true of the tac squad and what makes them the heart of the SM army) which is why I'm buying the dev squad box just to have to models to swap out LCs or HBs for the MLs that come with the tac squad box set.

As far as plasma weapons go I didn't have the points for PP for my RAS squad and for the tac squad I prefer HBs anyway (like The Dude I love the model). But if PCs are better against hordes it is something I would consider as I mentioned that was my only concern with my last list. Thanks again.

Mandragola
19-03-2008, 13:14
The pdf I've seen would have plasma cannons immune to "gets hot".

I think that lascannon razorbacks for tactical squads might become a good option in 5th. You could buy a 5 or 10 man tactical squad one of these and sometimes have 5 of them use it as a transport, but mostly it would be a cheap mobile lascannon that only gave away 1 kill point, was able to deploy in dawn of war etc.

With the defensive weapon nerf hitting predators quite hard I think these look good. Of course, lots of people will go for all infantry in 5th.

Halfpast_Yellow
19-03-2008, 13:41
With the defensive weapon nerf hitting predators quite hard I think these look good. Of course, lots of people will go for all infantry in 5th.

That would be weird considering cheap Rhinos and no entanglement.

Mugatu
19-03-2008, 15:27
It was a boon that wasn’t needed and detracts from the background of the Blood Angels being a Codex-adherent chapter with the small divergences of the Death Company (out of necessity) and Veteran Assault Squads (out of preference).

The Blood Angels predilection for Jump Packs is sufficiently represented by the Veteran Assault Squad and Honour Guard. This already gives them the ability to field more Jump Pack troops than any other Chapter. They didn’t need Assault Squads moved to Troops.

While I found the idea of Assault squads as troops pretty cool at first, I've seen so much "Jump pack full fools" going around that, should the option to thank someone be still active, you would have get a real big "thank" from me !

Just one quick note : Remember your troop will be your ONLY scoring squads. Throwing them in CC might kill them fast as, in my Dark Angel experience, CC squads tend to lose number really fast, and do so as soon as they hit Close Combat.

OverchargeThis!
21-03-2008, 12:32
I've been pondering the humble furioso. It occurred to me that for the price of a basic SM dreadnought, we can get a venerable furioso with a heavy flamer. Remember it comes with 3 attacks and a MG standard.

COmpare this to what I believe will be a very common SM dread configuration in 5th: a SM dread with MM and HF for just a few points more than the furioso as configured above.

THe furioso in this configuration is relatively cheap, quite suriviable, and as a support unit can handle hordes and vehicles. It's also a great unit in cc. The DC dread is slightly overkill for the support role I have in mind, so I'd rather save the points.

Mandragola
21-03-2008, 13:00
Furiosos are good in drop pods I think, but struggle otherwise due to poor range. They really won't want to come on from reserve in dawn of war.

The run rule will help, as will the new vehicle damage tables, but I'm not sure it's enough. Worth a try in a non-rush blood angels army.

OverchargeThis!
21-03-2008, 13:37
Furiosos are good in drop pods I think, but struggle otherwise due to poor range. They really won't want to come on from reserve in dawn of war.

The run rule will help, as will the new vehicle damage tables, but I'm not sure it's enough. Worth a try in a non-rush blood angels army.

Agreed. The thing I have in mind is we'll probably be doing less rush-style games in 5th, due to what I *think* will be a change to the metagame. We might see more hordes, and thus the furioso with a HF will be quite useful. THis iwll be the edition of template weapon spam, and necessarily so IMHO.

I"m thinking now that one of the three dreads should be podded, though.