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jospoon
18-03-2008, 14:20
I had a game recently where an odd situation came up.

A unit of 9 strong Knights of the Realm (3x3) charged my Chosen Chaos Knight's right flank (5x2). And on my right's flank was my champion.

I issued challenge. Only his champion on his most right in his 3x3 formation can accept it. His standard bearer in the middle and his normal guy on his left will have to fight my normal guy at the back rank.

So now my question is, what will happened to his 2 normal guys behind his champion? Do they get to fight?

In the Bret's lance formation rules, it says that those behind cannot choose who to attack and is able to attack as long as the front guy is in close combat. Errr... but the front guy which was the champion was engaging in challenge with my Chaos champion.

1) Does that mean, the 2 normal guys will have to forfeit their attacks?
2) Or contribute that 2 attacks to his champion's challenge?
3) Or choose to fight the normal Chaos Knight which the front Champion model not in base contact with one. (the champion model were only able to touch my Chaos champion)

What do you guys think?

Atrahasis
18-03-2008, 14:43
The rear ranks attacks simply go into the unit, as they cannot attack the Champion - the challenge makes no difference.

SuperBeast
18-03-2008, 15:21
/signed

The clarification in the rules essentially means that 2nd, 3rd etc. ranks can only hit R&F.
It prevents Bret players from lumping all the attacks of a single flank against a character, for example.

Kotobuki
19-03-2008, 02:48
In this case, the Knights in the Flank behind the Champion lose their attacks.

A knight in the flank of a Lance may only attack a model in base contact with the model at the front. In this case, the model at the front is in base contact with only a single model, and is fighting a challenge against that model. Normally, these models would only be able to direct their attacks against the champion, as there is no other model in contact with the model at the front of the lance. As the flank Knights may only choose to attack the Champion, and by the virtue of the challenge are prohibited from doing so, they simple stand around and twiddle their thumbs.

The rules for challenges clearly state that a challenge being fought may prohibit other models from attacking. This is one of those cases where models are stopped by a challenge.

To note, I am a Bretonnian player, and this exact rule has come up in games, both to my advantage and my detriment.

jospoon
19-03-2008, 04:52
I thought the same thing as Kotobuki too and his justification are quite valid. For those that disagrees, do you all have a better support idea on how it should be worked out?

Your answers will be crucial for a few of our new Bret players in our gaming group. Thanks.

Nurgling Chieftain
19-03-2008, 06:19
Kotobuki's seems to me to have the rules quite backwards:
A knight in the flank of a Lance may only attack a model in base contact with the model at the front.That restriction does not appear to actually be in the codex. Quite the contrary, really; they cannot target specific models at all.


Normally, these models would only be able to direct their attacks against the champion, as there is no other model in contact with the model at the front of the lance.I don't think they can direct their attacks against the champion at all, per the Bretonnian codex.

Milgram
19-03-2008, 07:06
the champion is in close combat, even though he is in a challenge. therefore nothing prohibits the knights behind the champion from attacking.

and no, they cannot target enemy characters directly, they always hit r&f IF the knight unit touches r&f at all (issue: units with characterfronts).

theunwantedbeing
19-03-2008, 09:31
The models that are in base contact with the champion of the chaos knights and those behind it are unable to attack if the front model is not also in base contact with a regular chaos knight as well.

The lance rules are terribly worded but they dont allow you to attack when you have been placed out of position to attack by a challenge.

There's no reason that the knights cannot be in a position to get all their attacks though.

Festus
19-03-2008, 10:37
Hi

I say the Knights behind the champion get to attack the r'n'f - they are behind a model attacking and could not in any case target a specific model.

Festus

jospoon
19-03-2008, 13:53
Guys,

Does anyone knows a definite answer for this situation? For example any FAQ or something?

I'm not sure who is right as some say the knights behind the champion can attack and some say cannot. :S

redrum
19-03-2008, 15:32
Guys,

Does anyone knows a definite answer for this situation? For example any FAQ or something?

I'm not sure who is right as some say the knights behind the champion can attack and some say cannot. :S

Try posting the question here: http://www.roundtable-bretonnia.org/.
Honestly though this seems pretty self-explanatory. The flank knights should still get they're attacks on RnF troops, there is nothing in the army book that states otherwise.

It simply states that the flank knights are allowed to fight as long as they are directly behind a model in the front ranks which is engaged in close combat to it's front. Unless challenges don't count as close combat (which would make no sense at all) I don't see the problem.

T10
19-03-2008, 15:49
"Note that any Knight that is in a position to fight, but is not actually in base contact with an enemy, cannot target specific models to attack."

You just need to come to an agreement with your opponent as to what that means.

I guess the simplest way to resolve thi issue is to assume that all attacks against a unit are worked out against rank-and-file models unless the attacker has the option of selecting a character or champion as his target instead.

-T10

theunwantedbeing
19-03-2008, 17:04
So ranked spearmen can all fight even if some are only behind models that are in a challenge?

redrum
19-03-2008, 18:43
So ranked spearmen can all fight even if some are only behind models that are in a challenge?

Apples and Oranges. I don't really see how that comparison is valid.

theunwantedbeing
19-03-2008, 18:48
So if you charge a lance into the flank of a 1 rank deep unit with a character on the end, challenge the character...you can still attack the rest of the unit.
Infact, only the front 3 models ever need attack the character, the rest are forced to attack the unit?

That makes no sense whatsoever and just makes the lance MORE powerful.

Festus
19-03-2008, 18:59
Hi

So ranked spearmen can all fight even if some are only behind models that are in a challenge?
Yes, they can.

BRB, p.55: The only requirement is that it is to the front and that the model before the one in the second (or subsequent) rank is in close combat contact.

Festus

redrum
19-03-2008, 18:59
So it somehow makes more sense that an entire unit of charging cavalry would just pull up and stop dead because a couple of guys are fighting? Um, wouldn't they just go past them and attack the other people in the unit?

I don't play Bretonnians and I've actually never played against them. I can't really comment on how it actually plays out but what your saying just doesn;t make much sense to me.

lachlin
19-03-2008, 19:10
The knights behind the unit champion get their attacks on the chaos unit, not the champion.

theunwantedbeing
19-03-2008, 19:17
Well thats what happens normally.....
But you think it makes more sense that the knights at the back get to attack the unit that's not in base contact?

Admittedly thats working the situation more towards my own argument but it's not an uncommon occurance and does happen (well all get flank charges). And In virtually all cases the unit doing the flanking wont get to attack at all.

eg.
BBB
BBDCUUUUUU
BBB

B are the brets, D is the unit champion
C is the enemy unit champion, U is the enemy unit

C challenges D, D accepts.
B then gets to attack U, despite not being in a position that would allow them to attack U.

Thats what doesnt seem to make any sense to me.
If B wasnt bretonnians, B wouldnt get to attack anything.

Festus
19-03-2008, 19:30
Hi

... despite not being in a position that would allow them to attack...
This happens to be the whole definition of the Lance: Models are allowed to attack even if they are not in a position allowing them to do so normally.

Honestly, I do not see your problem here - apart from trying to defend a *clever* way to wriggle out of the fact that a lance is hard if it hits home: You will not stop the lance simply by putting out one champ and saying *Here, take me and let my fellow mates live to foght on!* ...

Festus

redrum
19-03-2008, 19:44
If B wasnt bretonnians, B wouldnt get to attack anything.

That's exactly right. It's a special rule for the Bretonnian Lance Formation. Yes it is powerful and yes no other race would get to attack in that situation, that's the intended effect. It has to be powerful, lance formation is not meant for drawn out combats. Keep in mind that they're front is only going to be 3 models and in further combat rounds that's going to greatly reduce they're effectiveness. Which btw, is the whole point. They have to do a lot of damage on the charge because they can't really sustain long drawn out combats with that formation.

theunwantedbeing
19-03-2008, 20:22
Im not arguing that the models on the flank get to attack normally....I know thats how the lance works, Im fine with that.

What I am arguing about is that when you flank charge in a situation where the knight unit is not in a position to attack anything, they can for whatever reason attack part of a unit that no other unit would be elligble to attack if they charged in the same manner.

I shall make my diagram more simple.

K = knight
C = Knight champion
E = enemy
G = enemy champion

KKC GEE

C is clearly only able to attack G, infact G is the only attackable model out of the unit which is elligible to be attacked in clsoe combat when you charge from that position.

Although what you and festus seem to be saying is that despite G being the only model elligible to be attacked,
Models K are allowed to attack models E, but not G as its in a challenge.

What happens if the challenge never occurs?
Can K still attack E, or are they only allowed to attack G as thats all they are in base contact with?

Hence the confusion for me as nothing is allowed to do that normally.
In all other circumstances a challenge between D and G results in K not getting to attack E.

Nurgling Chieftain
19-03-2008, 20:42
I shall make my diagram more simple.You've over-simplified it. That's not a lance and won't benefit from the special lance rules; the lance formation is three models wide, no more, no less.


What happens if the challenge never occurs?That doesn't really change much of anything.


Can K still attack E, or are they only allowed to attack G as thats all they are in base contact with?Back knights aren't normally in base contact with anything at all. They cannot attack the champion since they are never allowed to single out models - regardless of whether the champion is in a challenge.


Hence the confusion for me as nothing is allowed to do that normally.They aren't normal.


In all other circumstances a challenge between D and G results in K not getting to attack E.In other circumstances the back ranks can't attack anyway.

redrum
19-03-2008, 21:09
Hence the confusion for me as nothing is allowed to do that normally.
In all other circumstances a challenge between D and G results in K not getting to attack E.

I understand your confusion I just don't know a better way to explain it. You seem to be sort of caught up on the notion that it falls outside the normal rules and that's certainly true. The fact is that most armies have some special rule that allows them to do something that most others can't do. Skaven can shoot into units in CC, HE Spearmen can fight in three ranks and so on.

As far as the challenge goes it doesn't really effect the situation all that much. In fact the only way the champion is going to be in CC is if he is challenged or he's the only model in the unit as they can't single out models.

theunwantedbeing
19-03-2008, 21:45
Not being able to target specific models is a little different to getting to fight something you shouldnt be able to fight.
They arent targettign a specific model anyway, they are targetting the model they are in base contact.

Or do you only get the front rank of a lance able to attack a single model?
What about ridden monsters?
Do we scatter to see what they attack as they cant specifically choose?

redrum
19-03-2008, 22:17
Honestly you're overcomplicating this. You keep saying they're attacking something they shouldn't be able to attack. Based on the rules for the Lance Formation they should in fact be able to attack these targets.

I don't see why ridden monsters would be any different. They would follow all of the rules for attacking a ridden monster plus get the bonus of the lance formation.

Scatter? Come on now. Who they can target is pretty obvious. Only the front knights in base to base contact with a champion or character could target them just like normal. It's really just normal targeting rules but the flank knights have to attack rnf troops. That's it.

Nurgling Chieftain
19-03-2008, 22:37
Not being able to target specific models is a little different to getting to fight something you shouldnt be able to fight.The rule under discussion involves getting to fight something you shouldn't be able to fight. That's what it does. Without it, they wouldn't able to attack at all, character or no character, challenge or no challenge.


They arent targettign a specific model anyway, they are targetting the model they are in base contact.You keep repeating the assertion that they are in base contact, despite having being corrected a number of times. They are not in base contact with anything. I don't understand why you think that they are, but it appears to be central to your confusion.

jospoon
20-03-2008, 01:16
I think what theunwantedbeing meant was this:

K = knight
C = Knight champion
E = enemy
G = enemy champion

KKK
KKC GEE
KKK

Even without challenge, can the other K still able to attack E since G is the only thing they can touch in the front row?

I hope I make things clearer.

redrum
20-03-2008, 01:41
I think what theunwantedbeing meant was this:

K = knight
C = Knight champion
E = enemy
G = enemy champion

KKK
KKC GEE
KKK

Even without challenge, can the other K still able to attack E since G is the only thing they can touch in the front row?



Yes, although I imagine this will be pretty rare.

theunwantedbeing
20-03-2008, 01:53
The rules dont say that though.
The rules simply state that the models in the lance who are elligible to fight but arent in base contact with the enemy cannot direct their attacks at specific models.

There's only 1 model to attack, E isnt attackable at all.
The lance rules dont allow E to be attacked.

If they do then the models benefitting from the lance rules will be unable to strike a single character model at all, as that's directing their attacks at a specific model.
Which is even more daft.

redrum
20-03-2008, 02:01
Actually I am mistaken. I didn't look at his diagram properly. In this case no, they couldn't attack E because the flanks can only attack if they're behind a model engaged in CC and obviously in that case they wouldn't be. My apologies.

jospoon
20-03-2008, 03:02
Since now we are more clear of the situation if there is only one rank getting flanked by the Bret knights.

How about the diagram below which was first posted?


K = knight
C = Knight champion
E = enemy
G = enemy champion

KKK EEEEE
KKK GEEEE
KKC


I'm just showing a 3x3 lance formation charging into a 5x2 formation enemy unit. (please note C can only touch G)

Based on the first diagram agreed on earlier that K will not be able to attack, how about now? Can the two K behind C able to attack E?

redrum
20-03-2008, 03:26
Since now we are more clear of the situation if there is only one rank getting flanked by the Bret knights.

How about the diagram below which was first posted?


K = knight
C = Knight champion
E = enemy
G = enemy champion

KKK EEEEE
KKK GEEEE
KKC


I'm just showing a 3x3 lance formation charging into a 5x2 formation enemy unit. (please note C can only touch G)

Based on the first diagram agreed on earlier that K will not be able to attack, how about now? Can the two K behind C able to attack E?

Okay the problem here is that for this question to even matter you'd have to move the enemy champion out of the rank to fight the challenge, like this:

KKK EEEEE
KKK EEEE
KKC G

you can't do that as this would be creating a new rank and the rules clearly state that you must move him within the ranks to face the challenger but if you can't do that then you move the challenger within his ranks to line up across from the challenged (pg 77 BRB). Instead you would move the challenging model in the rank like so:
KKK EEEEE
KKC GEEEE
KKK

Which solves the other problem as well since the lance formation rules don't apply to the middle rank of knights.

Milgram
20-03-2008, 05:14
if they're behind a model engaged in CC and obviously in that case they wouldn't be.

but a champion in a challenge is in cc. isn't he? if he is not, then this opens doors for a bunch of other 'issues' with different magic items etc.

I don't think we have to argue whether he is in cc or not.

redrum
20-03-2008, 05:24
but a champion in a challenge is in cc. isn't he? if he is not, then this opens doors for a bunch of other 'issues' with different magic items etc.

I don't think we have to argue whether he is in cc or not.

Yes of course he's in cc but in the example I was referring to the champion was in the middle rank and the flanks had noone in front of them in cc. So therefore the flanks would be unable to attack and since lance formation doesn't affect the middle rank of knights it's sort of a moot point.

jospoon
20-03-2008, 05:59
Okay the problem here is that for this question to even matter you'd have to move the enemy champion out of the rank to fight the challenge, like this:

KKK EEEEE
KKK EEEE
KKC G

you can't do that as this would be creating a new rank and the rules clearly state that you must move him within the ranks to face the challenger but if you can't do that then you move the challenger within his ranks to line up across from the challenged (pg 77 BRB). Instead you would move the challenging model in the rank like so:
KKK EEEEE
KKC GEEEE
KKK

Which solves the other problem as well since the lance formation rules don't apply to the middle rank of knights.



That would rather suck more for the Bretonians as 3 knights are unable to fight compared to 2 earlier.

I thought challenges is valid as long as both challengers are touching each other? And in this situation below, knight champion and enemy champion's tip to tip is still considered touching, isn't not? Do you still need to move him?

KKK EEEEE
KKK GEEEE
KKC

warlord hack'a
20-03-2008, 10:58
what I think people are arguiing about is the following:

YYXDEE
MMCEEE
MMMEEE

Y, X,C and M are all models in my unit, where M, Y and X are normal rank and filers and C is the unit champ. E is the enemy rank and file, D the enemy unit champ.

Now a number of situations can arise:
1) the left unit (MYXC) is any unit except bret's in lance formation AND X only touches D. Now if D issues a challenge and C accepts, under the normal rules X would not be allowed to attack (see the challenge part in the BRB). This is an odd situation to visualize but indeed it is the rule.
2) now all of a sudden when unit M is a bret formation models Y are allowed to attack E? How about X? He can surely not attack E as he is only facing D which is in a challenge with C.. I think the wording in the bret lance rules are meant to point to the fact that these models can actually attack when not in base contact with the enemy, not that they can circumvent the challenge rule which stops all other units in the game from attacking.. This point is the point we are not agreeing about.. You can say yes, Y and X can attack as it's in the lance rule, or you can say no Y and X can not attack as knights in the second and further rank of the lance can not target specific characters and D is a specific character or you can say no Y and X can not attack as C and D are in a challenge so Y and X are stuffed just as any X would be if it were any other model except bret's..
3) now envision a lance charging a single enemy model on horseback, the enemy models issues a challenge and the bret player, afraid to loose his wardsave, accepts with the unit champ. Now what happens? Where does it say that all knights in the lance (except the middle ones, you know what I mean) can still atack this character? Once again, when any unit charges a single character and this charachers gets in a challenge then NONE of the normal R&F models gets to attack. If bret's are an exception to this rule then surely this would have been mentioned somewhere very explicitly..

Now see the link between 3 and 2..

redrum
20-03-2008, 13:32
That would rather suck more for the Bretonians as 3 knights are unable to fight compared to 2 earlier.

I thought challenges is valid as long as both challengers are touching each other? And in this situation below, knight champion and enemy champion's tip to tip is still considered touching, isn't not? Do you still need to move him?

KKK EEEEE
KKK GEEEE
KKC

Yeah, as with many of the rules the wording leaves it a bit open to interpretation. You don't have to be in base contact with the model to make a challenge. The wording is this: "The challenging character is moved in the ranks until the 2 protagonists are opposite each other. If this is not possible then the challenger is moved in the ranks to a position where he is in base contact with the character that accepted the challenge."

Personally I play this that you must be directly across from each other when fighting a challenge if at all possible, so someone needs to move. Their wording makes it a little open but that's how I've played it.

redrum
20-03-2008, 13:35
Warlord Hack'a, in your example X is still in base contact with the E in the middle rank so should be able to attack and since YY are behind a model in CC they would also get to attack per the Lance Formation rules.

warlord hack'a
20-03-2008, 14:40
Redrum, no he is not as I say in my description that X only touches D. Sitoution in which this will arise: when two units charge the one enemy unit, when D is a cavalry model charged in the flank etc.

So X only touches D, that is a given, Otherwise, if X also touches E then I agree and X and Y can attack E, no problem there..

Nurgling Chieftain
20-03-2008, 19:17
KKK
KKC GEE
KKK

Even without challenge, can the other K still able to attack E since G is the only thing they can touch in the front row?In this situation with no challenge: the front knights can attack G, but not E, and the back knights can attack E, but not G. If there is a challenge, then the front knights aren't in close combat, and so neither they nor the back knights can attack.


There's only 1 model to attack, E isnt attackable at all.The only reason E is not normally eligible to be attacked is because nothing is in B2B with E.


The lance rules dont allow E to be attacked.The lance rules allow models not in B2B to attack. The back knights aren't in B2B with E, but that doesn't matter, they're not in B2B with E regardless of the champion and/or challenge.


Which is even more daft.Quite the contary, it would make perfect sense: the fluff behind the lance is that it smashes deep into the enemy lines! There's no enemy lines to smash deeply into if there's only one guy. Similarly, one champion on the end of a line is not going to magically stop the whole lance from getting to grips with the rest of his troops.

jospoon
24-03-2008, 06:18
Since there are no more reply on Nurgling Chiefttain's post, can I assume that that is the way to play it? Meaning the knights behind the Knight Champion can still attack RnF models even though the Knight Champion can only touch the Enemy Champion which both are in a challenge.

Festus
24-03-2008, 07:19
No, this is not exactly the way, as the front knights still are in a position of combat (assuming we are talking G and E being on 25mm or cavalry bases, otherwise only one file of Knights is in combat) during a challenge.

Festus

warlord hack'a
24-03-2008, 18:11
so, what's it gonna be? when normal troopers charge a lone character and this character issues a challenge and the trooper champ accepts, then the rest of the troopers in that unit, wven those whose base are touching the lone character, do not get to attack this character. WHere does it say that bret's circumvent this rule?

If it does not say so anywhere then bret's do apparently not circumvent this rule and therefore knights in a lance that are only touching an enemy character which is involved in a challenge do not get to attack, period.

Knighta
24-03-2008, 22:06
why not just remove the two from the unit, replace with a standard knight, and then juke it out???
Wouldnt that make it easier?