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Victomorga
18-03-2008, 22:29
As the 5th edition rules loom on the horizon, many players are struggling to stay competitive with army lists that haven't been updated in a few generations of the game. IG, DE, and Necron players are all working with codecies which were designed to suit the play dynamics of a different iteration of the game. The same goes for WH and DH.

So here is my question: is GW in over it's head? Shouldn't any given army have a rule set no older than the last edition of the rules? Obviously the more playable army lists there are the more choices, diversity, and fun to be had. But if GW can't keep it's army rules up with it's game rules, these lists, while legal, become functionally useless or even ripe for exploitation.

What can they do better to keep things on an even keel, and prevent some players from being alienated as the playstyle of 40k shifts in ways that make certain armies less and less viable?

(I'm looking for larger answers here please, not "my codex should be better! *waaah waaah waaah*")

Captain Micha
18-03-2008, 22:39
they could start by actually getting more people on their development team so they can actually release things a timely fashion.. That would probably be a good start.

Second, they could bother to remember said neglected armies exist.

With their ridiculous prices (for the codexes alone) they could certainly afford to do both.

The SkaerKrow
18-03-2008, 22:47
The answer seems to revolve around expanding their development team and releasing Codexes independent of miniatures. Part of the reason why Witch Hunters, Daemon Hunters and Dark Eldar haven't been given new rule sets is because their supporting miniatures lines are in need of an extensive revamp, which is a rather demanding mobilization of resources.

Victomorga
18-03-2008, 22:48
I don't have a problem with the cost of the codecies, especially since the newer ones are longer than ever.

I do think they need to consolidate more. Just like the gaming principle of not splitting your fire: shoot a unit until it's dead, don't spread your fire around and knock out a few models in each unit.

If some codecies end up longer and more expensive, then so be it. If you start a new Chaos 'dex, either finish the whole thing and put it in one book, or release the demon book and the CSM book back-to-back.

Same goes for loyalists. If SMs are the most popular army, then let them have the largest and most diverse codex. Don't develop half a dozen separate codecies for different chapters, get people into their unique rule set, and then leave them in the dust come next edition of the rules.

Victomorga
18-03-2008, 22:54
The answer seems to revolve around expanding their development team and releasing Codexes independent of miniatures. Part of the reason why Witch Hunters, Daemon Hunters and Dark Eldar haven't been given new rule sets is because their supporting miniatures lines are in need of an extensive revamp, which is a rather demanding mobilization of resources.

I totally agree; let the rules come first. I think they avoid this approach because from a marketing standpoint, it is far more profitable to do a huge all-encompassing revamp of a given product line.

That way it can be a cover feature for a few months in WD (which is basically a collection of ads for their products anyway), and you make a big, splashy impression on gamers, upping the chances that people will jump into the army with a huge initial investment. They don't make money selling a copy of a new codex to old gamers looking for rules updates, they make money selling a whole new / revamped miniature range to people wowed by a big re-introduction.

cailus
18-03-2008, 23:10
I think they're definitely in over their heads. I think what's happened is that stagnant slaes and profit have put a lot pf pressure on them and they're trying to kick start their profit growth by focusing on popular lines or lines that are considered worthy of investing.

They're also trying to do things relatively quickly and cheaply when it coems to rules hence the generic abomination that is Chaos and the most poorly proof read codex in history in the form of the new Ork codex.

I also don't think GW can cope with maintaining quality codexes/army books etc when they're trying to support 3 major systems at the same time that they're trying to make as many cutbacks as possible.

RevenantX
18-03-2008, 23:18
Instead of wasting time on 5th edition(which we don't need), why not put out new codices for those armies that need them(which we do)?

sliganian
18-03-2008, 23:20
I totally agree; let the rules come first. I think they avoid this approach because from a marketing standpoint, it is far more profitable to do a huge all-encompassing revamp of a given product line.

That way it can be a cover feature for a few months in WD (which is basically a collection of ads for their products anyway), and you make a big, splashy impression on gamers, upping the chances that people will jump into the army with a huge initial investment. They don't make money selling a copy of a new codex to old gamers looking for rules updates, they make money selling a whole new / revamped miniature range to people wowed by a big re-introduction.

Well, you've hit it there. GW has always -- and continues to -- view itself as a MINIATURES company that just happens to produce rules for using the minis.

They do not see themselves in the light of a "gaming company", despite the name. They really don't.

The SkaerKrow
18-03-2008, 23:24
Well, you've hit it there. GW has always -- and continues to -- view itself as a MINIATURES company that just happens to produce rules for using the minis.

They do not see themselves in the light of a "gaming company", despite the name. They really don't.
It wasn't always this way (it certainly wasn't up until around the late nineties), but it certainly is now. Which is unfortunate because without the game, they wouldn't be selling much of anything.

Bregalad
18-03-2008, 23:34
IG (last edition) and WH Codex were released late with 4th edition rules in mind, so no problem there. DE are still one of the most competitive armies, and Necrons work okay as always. So I see no problem with these Codices being formally 3rd edition.


The answer seems to revolve around expanding their development team and releasing Codexes independent of miniatures. Part of the reason why Witch Hunters, Daemon Hunters and Dark Eldar haven't been given new rule sets is because their supporting miniatures lines are in need of an extensive revamp, which is a rather demanding mobilization of resources.
Everyone agrees that De miniatures desperately need a complete overhawl, but I don't think that WH or DH need any (as I don't see that plastics could do these any good with current GW plastics qualities).

Malchek
18-03-2008, 23:36
Instead of wasting time on 5th edition(which we don't need), why not put out new codices for those armies that need them(which we do)?


I totally agree with this - I really do believe that the only reason we're getting a 5th edition pushed onto us this year was because last year GW's profits were really bad and therefore to make it look like things are going a lot better this year to appease their shareholders they're bringing out WH40K 5th edition - just think about all those Ł40 odd quids ringing in the tills when we all rush out to buy our copy....

The problem is I personally don't really see a need for a major overhaul of 4th edition - there's a few things that could be improved upon as I'm sure we'd all agree - but by and large I'm happy with the rules set as it is and I'd much prefer a bit of time and TLC being given to some of the woefully neglected armies out there - they make the hobby diverse and interesting but really they're nothing but a sidenote for GW at the moment and they can't be bothered because they don't make the cash registers ring as well as anothe unit of Red/Blue/white/green marines etc etc....

The problem is, no-one up there seems to realise that the commercial success of GW is directly dependent upon us lot having fun with it all. Commercial imperatives don't always sit easily with this.

Take any one of the woefully supported dex's - I reckon just like me - most people really enjoy playing a with hunters, Daemon hunters,Dark eldar etc etc army because we don't see them very often and they add a lot of flavour and depth to the hobby rather than always playing against Eldar and marines.....

Whilst commercially GW might not make a lot of money DIRECTLY off these less popular armies they fail to appreciate that they inadvertantly add to the appeal of their game system because they add much needed variation and keep the game alive and interesting for a lot of people - if only to play against something else once in a while other than the usual.

The truth be told I do wonder how we put up with GW and the really particularly poor service we endure from them - now I'm not one to normally bash GW - without them we wouldn't all be here enjoying our hobby but in any other area of business they'd be flat on their face - 3 editions of a rule set and no update for a codex whilst marines have gods knows how many!?

I think the balance of power in games workshop has to shift away from the commercially minded whom have no idea about the hobby whom believe they're rationalising but are in reality inflciting what could be a very slow and painful death on the hobby - or at least Games workshop's part in it....

Captain Micha
18-03-2008, 23:42
Thing is, I am not so sure they will be selling quite as many copies as they think they will. I might be alone in this, but 4th edition d&d is coming out in june. I have a limited gaming budget. Guess what is going to break said budget?

If I have to choose between a game that, has a thousand times more support, a thousand times more balance, and get more content for about the same price. Guess what product is going to lose that purchase decision. 5th edition.

I realize they think themselves invincible and have no competition, but honestly releasing so close to d&d? Would you want to make gamers choose? I wouldn't.

TzeentchForPresident
18-03-2008, 23:42
I hope there will be more resources freed when the 5th edition rule book is done, the playtesting of the basic rules has to be much more demanding than the testing of a single codex.

So please please no more new rulebooks for some few years until all codexes has been updated and please use the Web to keep updated FAQs for codexes and rulebooks.

Thanks!

Reaver83
19-03-2008, 00:00
Well I think it's fairly unlikely that (bar a SM codex) we'll get a rehash of any of the 4th Ed Codecies, and as mentioned above Guard were meant to be 4th Ed Ready.

I think they did need to do a new version of the core rules, there were lots of glaring weakness's and more than a few things which needed tweaking.

I think it's tough for GW when to does have three 'core games' to release all the books for every race quickly, time needs to be given to all three in development, and trying to release more than 3-4 supplement for each a year is tough!

So yes I think GW should release 5th Ed, but I think they need to ensure that DE (having seen those spanish Games day greens i think we're in luck), Guard, Inquisition and Necorns need to be the codex's released between now and 2010.

Ozendorph
19-03-2008, 00:13
In my view, LOTR is hosing up the release schedules more than anything else. It's a cool looking game and all that, but I think GW only bought the licensing/development rights to keep other companies from putting out a war game that could compete effectively with WHFB.

Soupcat
19-03-2008, 00:37
Personally I am glad that they are release the 5th Ed rules first, you can release a codex with 5th ed in mind, but it still in the end has to be made playable for 4th ed. They know they have to release a new version soon, and they have a bunch of 3rd ed codexs. If they get the new edition out of the way, they can not only free up resources which have been going to development (which I believe they must have been working on since around codex eldar) they can also release a codex specifically tailored to this edition. Mind you that's just what I think and I could be completely off base as I have little to no experiance in these things.

The SkaerKrow
19-03-2008, 00:41
IG (last edition) and WH Codex were released late with 4th edition rules in mind, so no problem there. DE are still one of the most competitive armies, and Necrons work okay as always. So I see no problem with these Codices being formally 3rd edition.The Dark Eldar Codex is almost a joke. Out of the cross-section of units available, only a small number of them are viable (Hellions and Scourges are pants, Grotesques, Mandrakes and Reavers are just a cut above that). While the other older Codexes might work out alright, the Dark Eldar Codex is borderline non-functioning at this point. Only the fanbase's willingness to ignore half of the units available to them has kept the book afloat for as long as it's been around.


Everyone agrees that De miniatures desperately need a complete overhawl, but I don't think that WH or DH need any (as I don't see that plastics could do these any good with current GW plastics qualities).Having seen GW's most recent plastic kits for Warhammer Fantasy and the solid work that they've done on some of the more ornate Marines in 40K, I'd bet they'd have absolutely no problem providing us with great looking Sisters of Battle and Grey Knight figures.

Deus Mechanicus
19-03-2008, 01:08
What 4th edition codicies were made with 5th edition in mind?

Bunnahabhain
19-03-2008, 01:19
They're stuck in a vicious circle with 40k.

They're working of a model of releasing a new model range and codex for an army, to lead sales.

To do a properly play tested new edition of 40k it would take at least a year, as it would need an entire batch of new codexs. Short of employing more developers, the fear of the dip in sales that would occur due to the lack of new releases during the development period puts them off.


40k could do with a whole new system, but GW don't think they can implement one, so it slowly heads downhill.

There is no excuse for the lack of FAQs and Errata documnets though. NONE.

Tymell
19-03-2008, 01:31
Instead of wasting time on 5th edition(which we don't need), why not put out new codices for those armies that need them(which we do)?

Like Malchek, I completely agree with this (as my sig should indicate). Simple fact is we don't need 5th edition, especially given how little is actually changing. They should either not bother with it, or, if they really are going to do a 5th edition, do it properly, make it worthy of the title "5th edition", not just "4th edition (which was really just 3.5) + a bit".

So yes, I do feel they're in over their heads and are stuck desperately trying to keep up with themselves, while seemingly failing to see what is actually the core of the problem.

Auzu
19-03-2008, 01:34
they could start by actually getting more people on their development team so they can actually release things a timely fashion.. That would probably be a good start.

Problem with time is that they release a new codex for 40k around every fourth month so it will take almost four years to release all the books for one edition and remember that some books will be released twice and you really can't speed up that process with any number of game developers.

The problem is GW changing the direction for the game halfway thru and resulting in the books released early in a edition being worse than those released in the middle which in there turns are different than those being released late.

When fifth edition are released we will have 3rd edition codex together with 4th, 4.3rd, 4.5th, 4.7th, 5th edition ones and I guess with the second book in 5th edition being made for 5.1 edition. :rolleyes:

With GW having chosen the incredible stupid path of "no FAQs" and no clear plan I have lost all trust in them as a game company.

Lord Raneus
19-03-2008, 02:00
In my view, LOTR is hosing up the release schedules more than anything else. It's a cool looking game and all that, but I think GW only bought the licensing/development rights to keep other companies from putting out a war game that could compete effectively with WHFB.

Seeing as that war game has made, and makes, more money than WHFB, I'd say it was a good call. ;)

Vaktathi
19-03-2008, 02:14
I think one of the biggest problems is their release schedule. They time everything not to overlap. One month is 40k, the next fantasy, the next LotR, the next 40k, etc...

However, given the sheer number of armies they have, this results in a flat out unacceptable update time for many armies. I can understand not wanting ones releases to compete with each other, but at the same time, neglecting a product isn't exactly going to work well either. They need to be releasing four or five 40k armies a year, not two (especially not like 2007 was, with Slightly alternate marines, Other slightly alternate Marines, Spiky Marines).

Stormhammers
19-03-2008, 02:22
what is up with all these companies rolling out new editions of their games so quickly?! AD&D 2nd edition was out for quite some time and they just kept fleshing out the worlds and characters, making it a quality game. 40K 3rd ed was out for what...the better part of a decade while 4th edition was around for a scant number of years and now 5th is coming out this year?! GW is falling apart. This is a desperate grab for profits. I would be nice if GW decided to release more to flesh out an edition before changing the edition. Another gripe is how little changed with 3rd and 4th ed. When D&D updated, it was a complete overhaul of the old edition and I believe it was improved. 40K 3rd ed and 2nd edition are quite different games, like a new edition should be. GW is quickly losing favor from a loyal customer...well, once loyal.

Mitheral
19-03-2008, 02:38
There is no excuse for the lack of FAQs and Errata documnets though. NONE.

Holy hand grenade this is the one that drives me crazy.

Vaktathi
19-03-2008, 02:45
what is up with all these companies rolling out new editions of their games so quickly?! AD&D 2nd edition was out for quite some time and they just kept fleshing out the worlds and characters, making it a quality game. 40K 3rd ed was out for what...the better part of a decade while 4th edition was around for a scant number of years and now 5th is coming out this year?!

Well, not quite, RT came out in the late 80's (lasted about 4-5 years), 2nd Ed in 1993 (lasted about 5 years), 3rd Ed in 1998 (lasted just under 6 years), 4th Ed (supposedly delayed due to LotR) in 2004 (lasting 4 years), and 5th Ed supposedly in 2008. Not too out of the ordinary.

ssgtdude
19-03-2008, 02:46
I don't think GW is exactly over their heads, but I do think they are biting off more than they can chew. When I first heard about 5th Edition it was at the same time that I had heard rumor that GW wanted to update the rules every 4-5 years as well. Considering that GW has trouble releasing everything for their game in just about ten years there is no way that they could release the new game in 4 with all the updates. Not possible with the way they formulate their releases...

If you notice how other game systems do a release for their games it usually involves the basic books being released at the same time.

Basic rules, Player books, referee materials, perhaps new missions too boot.

This push will satisfy the game player until the time comes when the anticipated release of the particular character class (IN our case Army) is released. Which the major armies (Marine, Guard, Eldar, Ork, Nid, Chaos)can be released within a years time, secondary Armies (BA/DA, WH, DH, DE, Demons, Tau) within two and fluff books (Psychics 101, Chaos Extreme, Chapter Expansions, Guard Regimental) on a third with spaced out new model lines as well.

IF GW were to release a Generic Army book with general cost, watered down units, etc... So that everyone would be able to build their army until the awaited codex rules came out I don't think we would be seeing as many folks moaning and groaning about the ends of the Universe unraveling themselves because this army or that army's codex is nerfed or cheese.

So now we get a Chaos and Ork Codeci that will be a year old or younger before the rule buffs will be asking how the rules in the codex apply to the new rules. New muddied waters, and even more areas of a game that will need to be clearified and FAQs that will probably be never written.

Joewrightgm
19-03-2008, 02:51
I don't think GW is exactly over their heads, but I do think they are biting off more than they can chew. When I first heard about 5th Edition it was at the same time that I had heard rumor that GW wanted to update the rules every 4-5 years as well. Considering that GW has trouble releasing everything for their game in just about ten years there is no way that they could release the new game in 4 with all the updates. Not possible with the way they formulate their releases...

If you notice how other game systems do a release for their games it usually involves the basic books being released at the same time.

Basic rules, Player books, referee materials, perhaps new missions too boot.

This push will satisfy the game player until the time comes when the anticipated release of the particular character class (IN our case Army) is released. Which the major armies (Marine, Guard, Eldar, Ork, Nid, Chaos)can be released within a years time, secondary Armies (BA/DA, WH, DH, DE, Demons, Tau) within two and fluff books (Psychics 101, Chaos Extreme, Chapter Expansions, Guard Regimental) on a third with spaced out new model lines as well.

IF GW were to release a Generic Army book with general cost, watered down units, etc... So that everyone would be able to build their army until the awaited codex rules came out I don't think we would be seeing as many folks moaning and groaning about the ends of the Universe unraveling themselves because this army or that army's codex is nerfed or cheese.

So now we get a Chaos and Ork Codeci that will be a year old or younger before the rule buffs will be asking how the rules in the codex apply to the new rules. New muddied waters, and even more areas of a game that will need to be clearified and FAQs that will probably be never written.

The man with the pink army is wise. We'd do well to listen to him.

And yes, there is more than a fair share of overly vocal and angry people on this forum. Its kind of a case of people needing something to be wrong so they can complain on teh int3rw3bz.

Not singling anyone member out, but this type of thread corkscrews right into the ground alot.

AngryAngel
19-03-2008, 03:21
Thing is, I am not so sure they will be selling quite as many copies as they think they will. I might be alone in this, but 4th edition d&d is coming out in june. I have a limited gaming budget. Guess what is going to break said budget?

If I have to choose between a game that, has a thousand times more support, a thousand times more balance, and get more content for about the same price. Guess what product is going to lose that purchase decision. 5th edition.

I realize they think themselves invincible and have no competition, but honestly releasing so close to d&d? Would you want to make gamers choose? I wouldn't.

I can't believe you can say this stuff seriously. Yeah DnD releases more books, tons of new books. Perhaps because they are run by one of the most greedy gaming companys around these days ( Wizards of the coast). Who released not only a slew of the books for 3rd edition they charged people for. Then a slew of ones, including all new books for 3.5 edition. With those 3.5 books they reprinted and changed around alot of the 3rd edition books just to make you rebuy them. Like with the complete warrior and the like which was only reprinting sword and fist and all those class specific books. Now a 4th edition, when they had the last 3.5 books released for what, less then a year ?

The DnD game system is as ripe for abuse any other, perhaps more so because they don't play test all their classes for balance. Or even feat selections. As well they increasingly work towards making the classes less relevant by flooding you with possible options, not all of them balanced in the slightest. As well as the prestige classes of which most are merely flat out better then the core classes bar none. Some of which are complete crap, and others so good its unbelieveable.

I'll tell ya this, I'm not going to be supporting the 4th ed of DnD. They milked me quiite enough with their 2 editions of 3rd.

Now that said, every company wants money. However to say wizards of the coast is the shinning star in the gaming sky. While GW is the great evil is a little nuts.


what is up with all these companies rolling out new editions of their games so quickly?! AD&D 2nd edition was out for quite some time and they just kept fleshing out the worlds and characters, making it a quality game. 40K 3rd ed was out for what...the better part of a decade while 4th edition was around for a scant number of years and now 5th is coming out this year?! GW is falling apart. This is a desperate grab for profits. I would be nice if GW decided to release more to flesh out an edition before changing the edition. Another gripe is how little changed with 3rd and 4th ed. When D&D updated, it was a complete overhaul of the old edition and I believe it was improved. 40K 3rd ed and 2nd edition are quite different games, like a new edition should be. GW is quickly losing favor from a loyal customer...well, once loyal.

Ok look at the company that has the rights to DnD. That being wizards of the coast, kings of the fast buck and selling things till it hurts. They released not 1 but 2 3rd editions, then hit ya with the 4th ed to completely toss all your expensive books out so you can buy all new 4th ed books that they'll release like wild fire.

GW is doing nothing evil with their new editions. Only diffrence is we're on this forum where all the GW haters go to whine over everything new. Where as apparently the saints at WoTC do nothing wrong ?? :wtf:

Occulto
19-03-2008, 03:54
what is up with all these companies rolling out new editions of their games so quickly?! AD&D 2nd edition was out for quite some time and they just kept fleshing out the worlds and characters, making it a quality game.

It helps when you have a GM (or DM in AD&D's case) to arbitrate things. AD&D's more a quality game due to the amount of source material - not the actual mechanics IMHO.


I would be nice if GW decided to release more to flesh out an edition before changing the edition. Another gripe is how little changed with 3rd and 4th ed. When D&D updated, it was a complete overhaul of the old edition and I believe it was improved. 40K 3rd ed and 2nd edition are quite different games, like a new edition should be. GW is quickly losing favor from a loyal customer...well, once loyal.

Yeah, I remember just how much I enjoyed waiting for my 3rd ed Nid codex to be released... :rolleyes:

Complete overhauls should be done only as a last resort. You invalidate a lot of previously released material.

Victomorga
19-03-2008, 04:26
I really never intended for this thread to become so negative.

I was looking at a thread in the background section where some guys are writing up rules and Fluff to re-introduce the squats, and I raised the point that GW has so much on their plate with 40k already, they would have to catch up to themselves before they got around to a new (or re-invented) race.

That got me thinking as to what could GW be doing to better maintain this gaming system, and how could they keep from letting anyone fall too far behind.

What does it say about this hobby that every thread devolves into bickering and griping about a sci-fi fantasy war game? Sometimes it seems like nobody is happy with the state of 40k, and if that's the case, then what the hell are we doing with our time?

Also: in GW's defense, there was a very popular thread not long ago with a survey regarding how often everyone actually plays. Judging by the results, I would say they are exactly what they say they are: a miniatures company with gaming as a supporting pretense for the sale of their primary product. we all spend a lot more time modeling, painting, and talking about this game than we do playing it.

ssgtdude
19-03-2008, 04:34
Victor that is only because of the fact that

1. painted armies look better, teh armies have to be assembled, and you have to at least represent accurately your army when it is on the table. So yeah we do spend time doing that in order to play their game system. Part of the fun and teh addiction to the Crack they coat the plastic in. Don't get your fix you find it somewhere else. Like some Drug dealers GW hasn't figured out that once you get them hooked you need to keep them hooked. Loyalist will remain always.
2 we bicker because the rules are not quite as clear as mud and leaves room to interpretation
3. We bicker because of the prices we are paying for something that we needed to add to our army.
4. It is in our nature to bicker it is the adult in us to know that while we might disagree everyone of us would probably gladly play each other and still bicker and talk smak while we are doing it.

TheDarkDuke
19-03-2008, 04:36
Well they have sured up the fantasy side IMO, only one army currently has problems but rumors have them being updated this year (Mortal Chaos) and only one army could really go for model updates and tweaking (Dark Elf) also rumored this year. So fantasy will only IMO be getting army book tweaks/new models. This should allow more resources and time for 40k to be brought on par with balance and support of each army. The only thing that allows GW to avoid updates for DE, Necron and IG is well they are still competitive, while there approach to balancing seems to be more geared in fixing the abusive codexs first.

However rumor still has DE with updating as one of the next 2? or is it 3? codex, and rumors from what Ive read say IG and Necron are considered over many. Also Codex DH and WH will be going into 1 codex resulting in one projected rather then 2. All in all, fantasy was the quicker/easier fix so they went ahead and fixed issue with it first with:

New rules, WE, Dwarf, Empire, HE, and VC updates to models and rules, and because they were in good shape they were able to create a whole new army Ogres. They only have as I mentioned 2 armies with any real need for anything. 40k has more to fix IMO, but they have been doing a good job with: Nids, Tau, BT, Eldar, Chaos, DA. But still need, SM:redux, SW, BA, DE, Necron, DH/WH, IG and new rules... this is the state fantasy was in 2 years ago... so I think 40k has started the fix and is 2 years away from being to the point where its all about tweaking army books and new models.

AngryAngel
19-03-2008, 04:39
What does all the belly aching say ? It says people love to complain, especially over the net about GW stuff, espeically on this site. It shows that for some, modeling isn't even the real draw to 40k, its knowing the system just so you have some place to complain, all the time. As well as something to complain about, from anywhere in the world. Where everybody knows your name. It's kinda like cheers, for the broken gaming soul of the damned.

Oh yeah, and btw..GW is the devil, or so people would have you believe, and all other game companies are from heaven giving only goodness and light to the world.

Emeraldw
19-03-2008, 05:55
Well they have sured up the fantasy side IMO, only one army currently has problems but rumors have them being updated this year (Mortal Chaos) and only one army could really go for model updates and tweaking (Dark Elf) also rumored this year. So fantasy will only IMO be getting army book tweaks/new models. This should allow more resources and time for 40k to be brought on par with balance and support of each army. The only thing that allows GW to avoid updates for DE, Necron and IG is well they are still competitive, while there approach to balancing seems to be more geared in fixing the abusive codexs first.

However rumor still has DE with updating as one of the next 2? or is it 3? codex, and rumors from what Ive read say IG and Necron are considered over many. Also Codex DH and WH will be going into 1 codex resulting in one projected rather then 2. All in all, fantasy was the quicker/easier fix so they went ahead and fixed issue with it first with:

New rules, WE, Dwarf, Empire, HE, and VC updates to models and rules, and because they were in good shape they were able to create a whole new army Ogres. They only have as I mentioned 2 armies with any real need for anything. 40k has more to fix IMO, but they have been doing a good job with: Nids, Tau, BT, Eldar, Chaos, DA. But still need, SM:redux, SW, BA, DE, Necron, DH/WH, IG and new rules... this is the state fantasy was in 2 years ago... so I think 40k has started the fix and is 2 years away from being to the point where its all about tweaking army books and new models.

That is a rather interesting view.

Adept
19-03-2008, 06:03
In my view, LOTR is hosing up the release schedules more than anything else. It's a cool looking game and all that, but I think GW only bought the licensing/development rights to keep other companies from putting out a war game that could compete effectively with WHFB.

I think you mean that 40K is hosing up the LotR release schedule.

DamonHunter13
19-03-2008, 10:05
I think they are too busy with their space marines. I collect them but would like to have some Daemon Hunters in my army. I would like to play against a dark Eldar army but cant find any players. My sister collects Witch Hunters and shes only about 8 so I paint them for her and they are really hard to customise because they are metal.
I think GW needs a wake up call and release either an online codex or release all races codexs at the same time.

Reaver83
19-03-2008, 10:44
^ but you've got to factor in the development time, consider that it takes months to develop stuff if GW decided to rework every codex simultaneously, it would take what a year? two? longer, and in that time what about the other game systems none of them would get any loving.

Having a rolling update timetable is the only efficient way to do this.

Malchek
19-03-2008, 11:34
What does all the belly aching say ? It says people love to complain, especially over the net about GW stuff, espeically on this site. It shows that for some, modeling isn't even the real draw to 40k, its knowing the system just so you have some place to complain, all the time. As well as something to complain about, from anywhere in the world. Where everybody knows your name. It's kinda like cheers, for the broken gaming soul of the damned.

Oh yeah, and btw..GW is the devil, or so people would have you believe, and all other game companies are from heaven giving only goodness and light to the world.

Nice constructive comments there AngryAngel.... Your post is full of moaning far greater in extent of anything I've read from anyone else on the actual topic at hand!? :wtf: Bitching about people bitching isn't helpful.


Well they have sured up the fantasy side IMO, only one army currently has problems but rumors have them being updated this year (Mortal Chaos) and only one army could really go for model updates and tweaking (Dark Elf) also rumored this year. So fantasy will only IMO be getting army book tweaks/new models. This should allow more resources and time for 40k to be brought on par with balance and support of each army. The only thing that allows GW to avoid updates for DE, Necron and IG is well they are still competitive, while there approach to balancing seems to be more geared in fixing the abusive codexs first.

However rumor still has DE with updating as one of the next 2? or is it 3? codex, and rumors from what Ive read say IG and Necron are considered over many. Also Codex DH and WH will be going into 1 codex resulting in one projected rather then 2. All in all, fantasy was the quicker/easier fix so they went ahead and fixed issue with it first with:

New rules, WE, Dwarf, Empire, HE, and VC updates to models and rules, and because they were in good shape they were able to create a whole new army Ogres. They only have as I mentioned 2 armies with any real need for anything. 40k has more to fix IMO, but they have been doing a good job with: Nids, Tau, BT, Eldar, Chaos, DA. But still need, SM:redux, SW, BA, DE, Necron, DH/WH, IG and new rules... this is the state fantasy was in 2 years ago... so I think 40k has started the fix and is 2 years away from being to the point where its all about tweaking army books and new models.

I think you make a lot of really good points here Dark Duke - I feel with WHFB they've hit the nail on the head and are doing great work and the similarities you point out with the state of WHFB from several years ago and WH40K now is very perceptive - well said!

Lets hope WH40K goes the same way as WHFB and gets sorted out soon!

Malchek ;)

Emperor's Avenger
19-03-2008, 11:36
The problem is I personally don't really see a need for a major overhaul of 4th edition - there's a few things that could be improved upon as I'm sure we'd all agree - but by and large I'm happy with the rules set as it is and I'd much prefer a bit of time and TLC being given to some of the woefully neglected armies out there -

I think the balance of power in games workshop has to shift away from the commercially minded whom have no idea about the hobby whom believe they're rationalising but are in reality inflciting what could be a very slow and painful death on the hobby - or at least Games workshop's part in it....

Amen. Which is why, now I've finished my Guard amy, I'm going to start playing Blitzkrieg Commander or Warmaster Ancients for about an eighth of the price of 40K.

Rick_1138
19-03-2008, 12:28
The thing that struck me the other day was the pics for the new Deamon splash release boxes.

They have used the same models for both game systems army boxes. How do i know this, well they have mixed and matched round babses with square ones on the front of the Fantasy release.

I can see why they did it, but it smacks of cheapness and saving a few pennies by having less models painted, but i still feel this is poor show for the front of an army box.

BrianC
19-03-2008, 12:36
Pure speculation but it seems as if all codex and rule development goes through one or two people at GW, and this small group of people already have a lot of other tasks that they have to do. Increasing the size of the development team will only work if they can give them some autonomy.

Titan Wolfe
19-03-2008, 18:23
5th Edition codex............why ???? My son has the Necron army collection and is finding it more and more frustrating on playing the game . As a space wolf player ,the codex does not seem that broken ,until you play an up to date codex army and begi to suffer.
Many people are playing with armies that have rules so far out of date ,you never stand a chance of winning a game unless of course its by a pure fluke. Blood Angels brought up to date ,Dark Angels up to date ......now even Chaos marines changed ......for the better ??????. What about Nid players ,or Necron players .Tau changed recently ,Eldar.... recent codex did it do any good . How many of these recent upgrades will become worthless if the 5th edition emerges:mad:.
Chaos Marine upgrade ,to many is a mocary,will new Chaos demon codex be allowed to work with Chaos Marine codex ......me think not making the whole fluff behind the Chaos legions be utter tosh and drivel .
Seems the pounds signs have taken over the common sence in production and gaming .COME ON GW GET A GRIP !!

gorgon
19-03-2008, 18:59
They're stuck in a vicious circle with 40k.

They're working of a model of releasing a new model range and codex for an army, to lead sales.

To do a properly play tested new edition of 40k it would take at least a year, as it would need an entire batch of new codexs. Short of employing more developers, the fear of the dip in sales that would occur due to the lack of new releases during the development period puts them off.

40k could do with a whole new system, but GW don't think they can implement one, so it slowly heads downhill.

There is no excuse for the lack of FAQs and Errata documnets though. NONE.

QFT.

At some point they're going to have to do a major overhaul, even if it's painful. GW might see 3rd, 4th and 5th editions as being separate products, but from many customers' standpoint, it's all one product decidedly on the downside of its life cycle.


I think one of the biggest problems is their release schedule. They time everything not to overlap. One month is 40k, the next fantasy, the next LotR, the next 40k, etc...

However, given the sheer number of armies they have, this results in a flat out unacceptable update time for many armies. I can understand not wanting ones releases to compete with each other, but at the same time, neglecting a product isn't exactly going to work well either. They need to be releasing four or five 40k armies a year, not two (especially not like 2007 was, with Slightly alternate marines, Other slightly alternate Marines, Spiky Marines).

While I understand that they're looking to avoid cannibalizing their own sales (a very real possibility given their prices), I think there's no question that the slow release times hurt their momentum with their games. Most players aren't full engaged in two or three of their game systems at once. As a result, the wait time for a release in the system you're currently playing can be extensive. And that *kills* excitement.

I said this before...if, for instance, they had one or two more releases for 40K each year, it'd seem like a more dynamic time in the hobby. Realistically, GW can probably only support two core systems at the rate they should be supporting them. The problem is that LotR (which IMO is also a very good system) is apparently still profitable. So what do you do?

These are very complicated times for GW, and it remains to be seen if the "new" management is up to the task.

bringerofdecay
19-03-2008, 19:37
I said this before...if, for instance, they had one or two more releases for 40K each year, it'd seem like a more dynamic time in the hobby. Realistically, GW can probably only support two core systems at the rate they should be supporting them. The problem is that LotR (which IMO is also a very good system) is apparently still profitable. So what do you do?


well, if i were to go along the lines of what you postulate then the only obvious answer is to relegate fantasy to SG status, it is the least profitable core system by a substancial amount and as such could easily be seen as becoming a dead weight. But every one knows this is an IMPOSSIBILITY (well, we all hope we know it is).

it might sounds crazy but they need to hire MORE design staff, it's all well and good finding you're losing profits so cut some of the staff down, unfortunatly this has the effect of cutting down on material produced, which in turn cuts down on purchases, a vicious circle and one that WILL end in GW going down the crapper

lanrak
19-03-2008, 19:52
Hi all.
I belive the real problem with Games Workshop is its total lack of synergy.
It is fractured through and through.
No one can agree what GW actualy is, what its core buisness is , and who are its main demographic customer base.
The studio staff are probably in tune with gamers/hobbiests,but they dont make decisions .
Corperate marketing tell the development team what to do and when its to be released.

GW seem to play to thier strengths , (art and narative suported marketing,)and totaly ignore thier weaknesses,(rules development and responce to customers inquiries/requirements.)

If rules requirments were on a seperate shedule to minature/model releases, it could improve game play and ballance.
But as stated before it may incur lower short term revenues.

But long term, perhaps gamers would stay longer, and therfore introduce more gamers into the hobby , resulting in a steady growth for GW?

Gamers main concern is the quality of the rules.
I can use any suitable minature with the rule set of my chioce.:D
However as 40k is the WORST rule set commercialy available.It is a counter intuative mess. with NO redeeming features.(Unless you like rolling lots and lots of dice.)

Much better rule sets are avalable for FREE down load.

So nice but overpriced minatures/models,and hobby suplies.(HOW MUCH for a tape measure?)
Combined with rubish rule sets that FUBARed 25 year old stinkers,(WH and 40k)

IF GW are to release 5th ed 40k, I would rather it be a totaly new rule set.(NOT just 2nd tweek of 3rd ed.)
And rules updates/support released as and when required irrespective of model releases.

Orca
19-03-2008, 19:52
Honestly, from the outside looking in (a casual player who only has an interest in one system) I think that GW needs to reformat it's release schedule. It has three products all of which it feels that it has to support, but it doesn't have the resources to support them all equally and do it well. I'd suggest a rotational system based on their seemingly wanting a 5 year turn around in core books.

A) Most recent released 'core' book. Army books released at the rate of 1/2 of the armies released for 2 years

B) Middle release - core book and armies are released, 1-2 years of filling in the gaps - alternate types of core armies and more fluffy releases, plus and FAQ's/errata.

C) Core Review - army list undergoing a review of it's core rules for the release of a new edition, a 1-2 year process that includes initial balancing of the army's to be released. Releases include timeline advancement tournements and worldwide events rather than core books.

And just cycle the products through. Your development is focused on group A and C, with B on the back burner. But B has it's core rules and armies available, so there isn't a major gap for players to complain about

syntax234
19-03-2008, 20:56
I play IG and it is quite frustrating not to be up to date with the current rules. I honestly think they should just compile all the codecises in conjunction with the rulebook and just wait longer so everyone is on the same page. Just have one massive 5th edition codex/rulebook bonanza.

shin'keiro
19-03-2008, 22:06
Instead of wasting time on 5th edition(which we don't need), why not put out new codices for those armies that need them(which we do)?

I completely agree. 5th edition is a complete waste of time and effort if we have army codexes from
3rd edition (10 years ago !!!!!!!!!!!!!) IMO 4th edition is fine as it is!
Im still waiting for the FAQ on the latest Eldar codex... which is now over a year old.

Victomorga
19-03-2008, 22:20
Gamers main concern is the quality of the rules.
I can use any suitable minature with the rule set of my chioce.:D
However as 40k is the WORST rule set commercialy available.It is a counter intuative mess. with NO redeeming features.(Unless you like rolling lots and lots of dice.)

Much better rule sets are avalable for FREE down load.

.

I DO like rolling lots and lots of dice. It shows me how many of my little men are shooting their little guns.

But you've piqued my curiosity: what other rule sets do you use in conjunction with your 40k miniatures? Where are the free ones available?

You're right about the rampant overpricing. I think the heart of this problem is that GW is now being run with a business-minded approach, and this is a niche market with little opportunity for growth. Once upon a time, they were by nerds, for nerds. Now, ever since their turn for the corporate, every purchase feels like a rip-off. This hobby will NEVER have mass appeal, so the only way they can expand their profits is by price-gouging theire customer base.

Why do you think they've cornered the market? They make EVERYTHING now. every terrain tutorial basically amounts to an infomercial for their hobbying products. Tape measure, jeweler's saw, hotwire, snips, pliers, basing sand, gravel. WD used to tell you to use cat litter to base you models. Now they remind you they sell small tubs of sand for roughly the price of a ten-pound sand bag at a hardware store.

They've positioned themselves to get every cent their customers invest in the hobby. Next they'll start selling sheets of polstyrene and insulation foam, so you can REALLY start to forget that Homedepot carries all the terrain building crap for a fraction of the price.

lord_blackfang
19-03-2008, 23:22
What does all the belly aching say ? It says people love to complain, especially over the net about GW stuff, espeically on this site. It shows that for some, modeling isn't even the real draw to 40k, its knowing the system just so you have some place to complain, all the time. As well as something to complain about, from anywhere in the world. Where everybody knows your name. It's kinda like cheers, for the broken gaming soul of the damned.

Oh yeah, and btw..GW is the devil, or so people would have you believe, and all other game companies are from heaven giving only goodness and light to the world.

This was... beautiful. :cries:

AngryAngel
20-03-2008, 00:08
Nice constructive comments there AngryAngel.... Your post is full of moaning far greater in extent of anything I've read from anyone else on the actual topic at hand!? :wtf: Bitching about people bitching isn't helpful.


Malchek ;)

Well endlessly bitching and rehashing the same points over and over isn't very helpfull either. Though, thanks for your kind words.


5th Edition codex............why ???? My son has the Necron army collection and is finding it more and more frustrating on playing the game . As a space wolf player ,the codex does not seem that broken ,until you play an up to date codex army and begi to suffer.
Many people are playing with armies that have rules so far out of date ,you never stand a chance of winning a game unless of course its by a pure fluke. Blood Angels brought up to date ,Dark Angels up to date ......now even Chaos marines changed ......for the better ??????. What about Nid players ,or Necron players .Tau changed recently ,Eldar.... recent codex did it do any good . How many of these recent upgrades will become worthless if the 5th edition emerges:mad:.
Chaos Marine upgrade ,to many is a mocary,will new Chaos demon codex be allowed to work with Chaos Marine codex ......me think not making the whole fluff behind the Chaos legions be utter tosh and drivel .
Seems the pounds signs have taken over the common sence in production and gaming .COME ON GW GET A GRIP !!

Not to completely argue with your post, however the Nids got a new codex before the Tau or Eldar so might want to take them off the list of need to be done.

Draconian77
20-03-2008, 00:27
They buffed our shooting and our MC's. The issues that needed fixing where not fixed. The Tau could probably due with minor tweaking in places, apparently 5th ed fix's the Eldar but the Nid codex needs a major rework with respect to the terms Close Combat and Horde army.

nightgant98c
20-03-2008, 00:30
I personally think that they should have a codex for several armies ready to release before they release the new rules. All would be great, but if they had some done, and released them every other month or so, they would then have time to get the rest finished.

Thirdeye
20-03-2008, 00:48
So here is my question: is GW in over it's head? Shouldn't any given army have a rule set no older than the last edition of the rules? Obviously the more playable army lists there are the more choices, diversity, and fun to be had. But if GW can't keep it's army rules up with it's game rules, these lists, while legal, become functionally useless or even ripe for exploitation.

What can they do better to keep things on an even keel, and prevent some players from being alienated as the playstyle of 40k shifts in ways that make certain armies less and less viable?


Well, it’s simple really. Just publish the rules and Codecies in loose-leaf binder format and delegate up-date responsibilities to select groups of rabid fans.

You might want to keep development of the core rules in-house. As rules change you publish the affected pages in your dedicated hobby mag (WD) and about a month or so latter you made it available online for free download. Gamers copy the new pages, open their binders, remove and discard the old defunct pages, and replace with the new and improved pages. This could have work fine for the transition from 3rd to 4th, and would most likely work going from 4th to 5th.

As for the Codecies, you draw your rabid fans from your tournaments. Players that scored in the top twenty-five in three consecutive regional tournaments, or five overall, would earn the right to participate in the Codex update for a given army. They would be known as the “keepers of the flame”, or some such nonsense. They would meet online in password protected sites to discuss and propose changes to Codex rules. Once approved the rules would be forwarded to the in-house guys for comment and “Imperial Sanction”. All sanctioned up-dates would be published in the WD and made available online like the core rule up-dates.

Problem solved. By this method you could keep everything current with monthly up-dates.

What’s that? GW would never do that because they wouldn’t make any money. Well yes, GW wouldn’t do it. But there are ways they could do it and still made money. I’ll save those thoughts for latter.

Draconian77
20-03-2008, 00:49
They really should have tried for all the Marines options in one book. Somewhere along ther lines of an index astartes codex.

Fantasy still needs their codecies to be redone. I mean Chaos mortals need a re-do, as do DE and OK. I know many a Lizardman player that wants cheaper a Sauri and many an opponent that wants more expensive Skinks and removal of auto hit Salamanders. TK need a buff more than ever in order to compete with VC. Fantasy still has quite a bit of work left to do.

Supremearchmarshal
20-03-2008, 01:19
They really should have tried for all the Marines options in one book. Somewhere along ther lines of an index astartes codex.

They'd sooner do a Codex: Not Marines.
Marines are GW's top-selling product line by a wide margin. No matter what cut-backs GW does, the Marines will be the last to go (or better said, if the Marines go, so will GW).

The Inquisitor
20-03-2008, 03:04
Well, you've hit it there. GW has always -- and continues to -- view itself as a MINIATURES company that just happens to produce rules for using the minis.

They do not see themselves in the light of a "gaming company", despite the name. They really don't.

funny you say this... in the day (back a LONG time ago), GW was a GAME company. IIRC they provided the funding to start citadel, which made all sorts of mins. GW then "absorbed" citadel, and then the rest his history...

The SkaerKrow
20-03-2008, 03:08
They'd certainly help their cause by folding the Black Templar back into Codex: Space Marines, and releasing no new "unique" Chapters. Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves should be enough.

Rioghan Murchadha
20-03-2008, 05:00
funny you say this... in the day (back a LONG time ago), GW was a GAME company. IIRC they provided the funding to start citadel, which made all sorts of mins. GW then "absorbed" citadel, and then the rest his history...

They started out selling other people's games.. then their own games where people used other companies' miniatures.

Citadel actually absorbed GW, not the other way around. That's why we have the ************* that is GW today, focused on flogging plastic and pewter, rather than producing a game that makes people WANT the plastic and pewter to play the game with.

Chem-Dog
20-03-2008, 05:54
I'm not so sure they're in over their heads, they do seem to lack a definitive direction at times but I suspect that comes from not seeing things from the inside.


They really should have tried for all the Marines options in one book. Somewhere along ther lines of an index astartes codex.

Or Codex:- Space Marines ;)
It's an interesting idea, after all, if you add up the various Marine Codexes and Supplements they account for pretty much half of the available armies in the game, I suspect that this codex would either sacrifice the "differences" of the Chapters that do have a seperate book in order to fit it all into one tome (although they may be small, relatively insignificant differences in the great scheme of things) OR be a mammoth release reaching into 100's of pages and many many extra pounds.

DamonHunter13
20-03-2008, 11:14
Reaver83 I understand what you mean but if they release updates on all races at the same time a year then you wont have to worry about buying a tau codex 1 year and a Space Marines codex the next.

If they do an online thing it would be a lot easier. They would just add the updates in and you don't have to go and get another codex that only contains 2 new units or what ever.

Dragonlv8
20-03-2008, 11:39
They should just get all there people to work on one of the codex's that badly need updating (witch hunters, Demon hunters, Dark Eldar) 1 at a time and then they will be back up to scratch and then they can figure out a set order that they relese updates in such as 1st Marines, then Chaos, then orks, Eldar and so on with there main armys in one spot to keep the magority of players happy but don't have 2 updates for 1 army while one hasnt had one.

.H.
20-03-2008, 18:19
The aspect of GW i really don't understand is that they run their business with the express purpose of selling models. Everything else they do is to simply sell more models.

Now, lets think about making rules to sell more models. Wouldn't you go to great leangths to make sure every choice in every codex is at least somewhat viable?

Do they not realize that there is a direct positive constellation between how effective models are in the game and how many of those models people will buy?

Few people will buy nice looking models for whom the rules are terrible. Not to mention, if you are already producing quality sculpts, a very simple way to increase sales would be to compel people to buy the model not just on looks, but on simple in game effectiveness.

Frankly GW seem to not recognize how to grow their business organically. This is only proved all the more by their own evidence on the 'stagnation' of sales.

sliganian
20-03-2008, 20:39
Few people will buy nice looking models for whom the rules are terrible.

Aaaand this is where you and I are at loggerheads with GW. The would say what you said above is false. Refer to some of Tom Kirby's comments in the Financial preamble from 2005 or 2006. He basically said that "people buy our models, I don't know why, but we fill a need and they will keep buying them."

Why he wasn't fired years ago is a big, big mystery to me.

Spleendokta
20-03-2008, 23:17
What needs to be done for all systems is this. Release the codex/army book soon as its complete, and not the 2 books a year crap. Put the damn books online, this is not the early 90's when most had to visit the library to view teh interwebz. You need to keep people interested in the game. You cant do this if they are waiting for new rules every 5 years.

Then they need to ditch the idea of splash releasing a SINGLE army. Unless the army has a new unit/creature, like the VC rare bat with wings that cant fly, they need to make sure every army gets new model love every few months. Oh wait a sec, they sorta did do this for my IG, they made new Ogryn models that are dead sexy yet the rules for them are aweful since GW fails at delivering updated rules!!

Moepho
21-03-2008, 00:21
In my view, LOTR is hosing up the release schedules more than anything else. It's a cool looking game and all that, but I think GW only bought the licensing/development rights to keep other companies from putting out a war game that could compete effectively with WHFB.

QFT! Totally agree...

guardsmen529
21-03-2008, 05:21
i play IG and honestly don't beleive there is a problem with the IG codex for 4th edition (and possibly 5th when it comes) other IG players i know feel differently though...

necrons are fine, but i've never played with a necron army so can't say much about them

as for DE they are competitive but are normally overlooked by GW (when the last time an article or battle report with DE was in WD? N.B. this is the OZ WD other countries may be different)

Logarithm Udgaur
21-03-2008, 08:06
Replying to the OP, they could start with making sure each army has at least a core codex (yes SM I am taking about you, with all your variant codexes). It is ridiculous for GW to expect me to buy a new rules set when they have not even updated all the codexes to the old rules set. Do not even talk to me about the blatant balance issues inherent in using codexes from different editions of the game.

AmBlam
21-03-2008, 09:15
Gw's priorities are in completely the wrong order. The game was based on innovation, real innovation as opposed to corporate. Now I can't say anything of the sort of the company. I see cynical release (Chaos Codex) after cynical release (Apocalypse). Such things compound their misery.

Dux Ducis
21-03-2008, 09:59
I've heard that the reason they watered down the CSM codex is because they want to release most of the legions with their own books, in combination with Codex: CSM.

It's never going to happen unless GW really restructure, hire more staff and get their act together IMO.

Mike KK
21-03-2008, 10:20
their problem is LOTR, yes theres a lot of nice models in the range but the game system sucks, and if you ask any staff member most will tell you that they sell hardly any LOTR, this is where they are losing money and as for time spent by the development team, how many random things are they bringing out for it now like the massive harad range with some of the models based on a word in one of the books or suggestion. tbh they need to downscale LOTR to a specialist game so more money can be ploughed into the more profitable systems of WFB and W40K

Dux Ducis
21-03-2008, 10:53
their problem is LOTR, yes theres a lot of nice models in the range but the game system sucks, and if you ask any staff member most will tell you that they sell hardly any LOTR, this is where they are losing money and as for time spent by the development team, how many random things are they bringing out for it now like the massive harad range with some of the models based on a word in one of the books or suggestion. tbh they need to downscale LOTR to a specialist game so more money can be ploughed into the more profitable systems of WFB and W40K

Excuse me? The last GW manager I talked to said LOTR made up at least a third of the product sold at his store - the rest was 50% 40K, 27% fantasy.

If you have a look at the amount of product on the shelves, you will see that these percentage figures are the same - half of one wall is covered with men with guns and tanks, the other is shared (unequally) by WHFB and LOTR.

You see, LOTR is a huge boon for GW. This is the reason why they are constantly updating the range. Also because they don't really need to update the rules for some time - the core rules are great and they keep churning out companion books just as an excuse for more models to sell.

With the movie release of several years between each, they had to fit, develop and manufacture a a whole new game (and miniature range) alongside their current core systems, which already took up most of their time.

GW is over the large financial hump that LOTR has given them - they are now feeling the pinch of the rest of their core products.

I agree they have spent too much time on LOTR, and would have rather seen it as a specialist range. However the LOTR miniatures are better than most WHFB (IMO) and are much cheaper. It's much more newbie-friendly as well, and you still get to roll plenty of dice.

The WHFB rules are at a very nice state, and I'm sure they will stay this way for some time to come. It's the slow release schedual of the army books that is really hurting the fan-base. That, and the now way of boxing minis at AU$35 for 10. Still, plastics such as GG can be seen as cheaper than the original metals.

I really think that GW needs to do some hard-thinking and a restructure - separate the developers for LOTR from WHFB from 40K. This would allow people to spend more time on the releases, or speed-up the current round of half-baked codexes (most WHFB Army Books are of a pretty good calibure now they are going back to the 5th edition route - thick with fluff, a solid bestiary and a well-placed no-nonsense army list section).

blongbling
21-03-2008, 11:05
their problem is LOTR, yes theres a lot of nice models in the range but the game system sucks, and if you ask any staff member most will tell you that they sell hardly any LOTR, this is where they are losing money and as for time spent by the development team, how many random things are they bringing out for it now like the massive harad range with some of the models based on a word in one of the books or suggestion. tbh they need to downscale LOTR to a specialist game so more money can be ploughed into the more profitable systems of WFB and W40K

rubbish, LotR is still selling quite well and is actually considered to be a great game system .

Vaktathi
21-03-2008, 11:10
rubbish, LotR is still selling quite well

You are the only person I think I've ever heard claim this, do you have any evidence? I've never seen it played, anywhere. I think I've seen it in one store in a very limited selection sandwiched between fantasy an 40k. Hell I don't think I've ever even heard of anyone playing it at any of the places I play at.

I'm sure it's a decent game, but I've never seen much of anything on it outside of the GW website and WD.

Dux Ducis
21-03-2008, 11:32
... do you have any evidence? I've never seen it played, anywhere....

Exactly. It's a newbie-friendly game, and the type of people who play it are not the ones you see going to the GW store regularly or are members of a local gaming group.

I had more mates play LOTR than WHFB, and it was me and the other WHFB guys who got the others into LOTR in the first place. Note that there is not much shift of players from LOTR to WHFB, most of the time they stick with either or down-grade to LOTR (as the games are smaller and can usually be played in a faster time-frame).

Temprus
21-03-2008, 14:08
You are the only person I think I've ever heard claim this, do you have any evidence? I've never seen it played, anywhere. I think I've seen it in one store in a very limited selection sandwiched between fantasy an 40k. Hell I don't think I've ever even heard of anyone playing it at any of the places I play at.

I'm sure it's a decent game, but I've never seen much of anything on it outside of the GW website and WD.
I think in the USA that LotR is under represented because a lot of the GW Staff/Indies don't like it/run it as opposed to it underselling in general. According to the Financials you can get from GW (you have to ask for the LotR numbers), LotR outsells WHFB. Which means that if GW did acquire LotR to keep it from competing against Warhammer, they failed. :D Then again, supposedly, hobby materials outsell both of them together. :wtf:

Personally, I prefer LotR's rule system over WHFB but I have not played any really huge battes with LotR, WHFB still might play faster/better at that scale.

whilewolf
21-03-2008, 14:15
Back in my day the RT era, a new model was released then rules followed in next months WD then rules corrections and FAQ’s followed in subsequent issues. And to play a game you needed the Rule book, about twenty issues of WD and some kind of indexing system to keep track of it all.
Because new models were released as and when the designee team liked, some armies grew to huge sizes full of options and other where a little bare and sparse.
I can see why GW changed to a more focussed development strategy of releasing codices and army books it theoretically allows for more balanced armies but the internet has solved a lot of the problems that the old system of releasing things in WD created.
You can make the codices free to download and change and amend them as needed keep one tournament list tight and well tested to ensure that tactical planning wins games not list building.
GW potentially has a huge pool of play testers available you the players if it was flexible in amending its units this would allow rapid development so that no army had worthless units that no one can justify fielding. It would also ensure better balance between the armies.
You might complain that GW would loose sales on codices and army books but I think that by lowering the cost to enter the hobby it would entice more customers in. The game systems are a sales tool for GW when you play WFB or W40K you commit to buying only GW models so why erect a barrier to entry in the form of rules books and codices why not give them away?
This strategy would also allow for the more frequent release of unites I find it surprising that disregarding new armies I went away for thirteen years came back and instantly recognised 90% of units, new models sure new ideas not so many.

spaint2k
21-03-2008, 14:18
I would much rather see a release schedule that looks like this:

-New edition released
-Army list book that contains lists for many armies (like 3rd ed WFB's Warhammer Armies)
-Every month sees small releases, either new stuff for existing armies, or old stuff revamped.

PDFs of new units should be available both online AND in-store. By that I mean, if you buy a model that doesn't have rules in the army list, the guy at the counter can ask you if you want a rulesheet with your model and then simply prints one off for you.

GW could then concentrate on making a decent variety of exciting minis every single month instead of this horrible "release all at once then forget about them for seven years" system we have now.

Steve

Huw_Dawson
21-03-2008, 14:46
My counter to the "LoTR is never played" arguement is that I've never seen anybody play WAB.

- Huw

Imus
21-03-2008, 14:49
I would much rather see a release schedule that looks like this:

-New edition released
-Army list book that contains lists for many armies (like 3rd ed WFB's Warhammer Armies)
-Every month sees small releases, either new stuff for existing armies, or old stuff revamped.

PDFs of new units should be available both online AND in-store. By that I mean, if you buy a model that doesn't have rules in the army list, the guy at the counter can ask you if you want a rulesheet with your model and then simply prints one off for you.

GW could then concentrate on making a decent variety of exciting minis every single month instead of this horrible "release all at once then forget about them for seven years" system we have now.

Steve

Very much a similar way to which warmachine has cards with each model to give you the rules so you dont need to buy all the books to have the rules?

To be honest it would be nice if they did little and often release with a army re release everything 3 months or so.

Id really like to here from one of their marketing people and find out how they release stuff and wonder how they justify some things? Would be interesting to here.

Ever since the company went plc it is being run more to make money than anything. Which is fair enough, people have to make a living, but im sure this has had a major affect on the changes. I wonder how much it would cost to buy them out and return them to a private company?

spaint2k
21-03-2008, 15:18
It's the move to plastic that's partly responsible for the relative dearth in new and exciting releases every month.

Plastics have a very long development time, whereas a set of metal figures can be churned out and produced in a week or two.

Steve

sprugly
21-03-2008, 17:24
Personally i'd like to see GW drop LotR altogether and focus on its 2 core games fora bit. I know some have said LotR still turns a profit and having not seen any Sales reports or anything i can't argue.

However i will note, My local Westgate last year was selling off all its GW stock at half price (i bought way to much) And obviously all th good stuff went really quickly leaving the not so popular stuff dripping slowly off the shelves. Over a year later and i lokked just this morning at what was left.

A few dozen paints (uncommon colours like pink and scorpion green.)
a handfull of now out of date codex's/army books
and a huge full shelf with about 100 boxes of LOTR stuff on it. no 40k no warhammer, just LOTR

'nough said i think, bin it and get on with the origional games

sprugly

.H.
21-03-2008, 21:19
Aaaand this is where you and I are at loggerheads with GW. The would say what you said above is false. Refer to some of Tom Kirby's comments in the Financial preamble from 2005 or 2006. He basically said that "people buy our models, I don't know why, but we fill a need and they will keep buying them."

Why he wasn't fired years ago is a big, big mystery to me.

Frankly, i feel that GW is at a disconnect with it's consumers. What they really need is some strong demographic research.

The fact that they don't know why people buy is the fundamental crux of this problem. If you don't know why people buy, then how do you organically grow sales?

GW seems to act like Sony in this regard, thinking their brand name is sufficiently strong that they can put out anything and people will buy it.

Templar Ben
22-03-2008, 04:02
I will go back and read when I get a chance so I am sorry if this has been addressed. I would say that GW needs to develop a clear ruleset and a formula for balancing the points of the various units. Then they can release that version with a list of the units as they exist at that point, which is how 3rd edition was as I understand it.

For future releases I would suggest that instead of doing army/codex releases every few months that they instead do "Segmentum" releases every few months. Those releases would be a unit or two for 3-5 armies that are located in that area. Given that there is a formula they can be balanced to drop into your existing army. I would tie that to mini campaigns in WD with new missions and a
narrative about what is happening and new Apoc Data Sheets that build upon those new units.

If they wish to playtest the new units first, they can "sneak peak" the rules for the new units in WD and given the reaction they can then adjust before the printing. If GW must be wed to the idea that books must be in print then after about 2 years, PDFs of the rules will be available online. I think it would be more advantageous to have the expansions available immediately online as they will be focused on encouraging people to pick up the new units and that is where the money is.

Edit: I see that Spaint said basically the same thing.


Well, it’s simple really. Just publish the rules and Codecies in loose-leaf binder format and delegate up-date responsibilities to select groups of rabid fans.

You might want to keep development of the core rules in-house. As rules change you publish the affected pages in your dedicated hobby mag (WD) and about a month or so latter you made it available online for free download. Gamers copy the new pages, open their binders, remove and discard the old defunct pages, and replace with the new and improved pages. This could have work fine for the transition from 3rd to 4th, and would most likely work going from 4th to 5th.

As for the Codecies, you draw your rabid fans from your tournaments. Players that scored in the top twenty-five in three consecutive regional tournaments, or five overall, would earn the right to participate in the Codex update for a given army. They would be known as the “keepers of the flame”, or some such nonsense. They would meet online in password protected sites to discuss and propose changes to Codex rules. Once approved the rules would be forwarded to the in-house guys for comment and “Imperial Sanction”. All sanctioned up-dates would be published in the WD and made available online like the core rule up-dates.

Problem solved. By this method you could keep everything current with monthly up-dates.

What’s that? GW would never do that because they wouldn’t make any money. Well yes, GW wouldn’t do it. But there are ways they could do it and still made money. I’ll save those thoughts for latter.

So have the game like Starship Battles? That is too wargammy and GW isn't trying to be a wargame company.


I can't believe you can say this stuff seriously. Yeah DnD releases more books, tons of new books. Perhaps because they are run by one of the most greedy gaming companys around these days ( Wizards of the coast). Who released not only a slew of the books for 3rd edition they charged people for. Then a slew of ones, including all new books for 3.5 edition. With those 3.5 books they reprinted and changed around alot of the 3rd edition books just to make you rebuy them. Like with the complete warrior and the like which was only reprinting sword and fist and all those class specific books. Now a 4th edition, when they had the last 3.5 books released for what, less then a year ?

Actually when they release 3.5 they produced a web enhancement that gave you all of the changes so you wouldn't have to buy the 3.5 edition books. The change to the "complete" books were because of feedback from customers asking for hardbacks instead of trade paperbacks even for low page count offerings.

See that is the difference really. WotC makes no bones that they want your money. So they go out and ask at every opportunity "How can I make you give me more money?" and act on that. People love them because they feel that they are being catered to.


The DnD game system is as ripe for abuse any other, perhaps more so because they don't play test all their classes for balance. Or even feat selections. As well they increasingly work towards making the classes less relevant by flooding you with possible options, not all of them balanced in the slightest. As well as the prestige classes of which most are merely flat out better then the core classes bar none. Some of which are complete crap, and others so good its unbelieveable.

I agree that in 3.0 there were balance issues in that they had classes front loaded (Paladin and Ranger) and they did not consider that in the playtesting. There could be more playtesting but an RPG is not a wargame so balance is hardly an issue. I could simply point you to White Wolf for a glaring example. BTW prestige classes are supposed to be flat out better. That is the point.


I'll tell ya this, I'm not going to be supporting the 4th ed of DnD. They milked me quiite enough with their 2 editions of 3rd.

Now that said, every company wants money. However to say wizards of the coast is the shinning star in the gaming sky. While GW is the great evil is a little nuts.

I agree it is nuts. As I said before, the big difference is the communication.


Ok look at the company that has the rights to DnD. That being wizards of the coast, kings of the fast buck and selling things till it hurts. They released not 1 but 2 3rd editions, then hit ya with the 4th ed to completely toss all your expensive books out so you can buy all new 4th ed books that they'll release like wild fire.

GW is doing nothing evil with their new editions. Only diffrence is we're on this forum where all the GW haters go to whine over everything new. Where as apparently the saints at WoTC do nothing wrong ?? :wtf:

When 4th Edition comes out, I don't doubt there will be an "update" pdf. My big concern is what is going to happen to DragonLance since they are making those changes to OGL and d20.

grickherder
22-03-2008, 08:24
I absolutely love the idea of a segmentum codex with 3 or 4 armies in it. Once centred around the eye of terror with Chaos, some cult lists (remember those), Ulthuan, Traitor Guard, Cadians/Imperial Guard. Once in the galactic east with Orks, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Dark Eldar. One about Ultramar with Ultarmarines/codex compliant marines, Tyranids, Tau. One called "Holy Terra" with the Inquisition, Adeptus Mechanicus, and a couple loyalist chapters who might be sort of in the area-- maybe another craftworld just because. Crusades of the Galactic North East with Templars, more Eldar, Chaos and Necrons. Just pepper various chaos and marine sublists throughout them. Those might not be the best picks for the different segments but they sound close off the top of my head.

I would *love* that. They'd sell a decent number of books too, as you might need 3 or so for all the different variants you might want.

People might hate it if they don't like how they're combined though.

Templar Ben
22-03-2008, 13:32
Well I am sure with proper research you could come up with great combinations. I think people are less likely to complain when they know that every race will get at least one new unit every couple of years. As far as model production, I was thinking some could be like the Space Marine Land Raider Terminus where there was no new sprues developed just kit bashing two tanks to make a new one.

I am not sure yet how to draw in the Summer campaign as that is multi-Seg or you have a lot of poor excuses for everyone to be on the same planet. (Oh crap, we forgot the Dark Eldar again. Let's just say they want to grab some slaves like always.) Not that it really matters though because I don't think GW is going to move away from the current release model of peak and valley instead of having a more steady income stream.

heretics bane
22-03-2008, 14:21
It's the move to plastic that's partly responsible for the relative dearth in new and exciting releases every month.

Plastics have a very long development time, whereas a set of metal figures can be churned out and produced in a week or two.

Steve

QFT-(im doing it alot these days:confused:) I actually prefare some metal minis over some plastics, for standard core troops plastics is good but for the extra "special" elite units metal is a nice change and their more detailed.

And on top of that the wieght kinda makes you feel your moneys been well spent, well for me anyways

LuciusAR
22-03-2008, 14:36
Exactly. It's a newbie-friendly game, and the type of people who play it are not the ones you see going to the GW store regularly or are members of a local gaming group.

You’re almost right. LotR player’s don’t game in GW stores precisely because of the attitudes many gamers have towards it. Your claim that its a newbie friendly game is quite right, it’s much easier to get into than WFB as its movement and combat rules are so easy to learn. However we should not equate this to being a kiddie game, on the contrary most of the long terms players are very much veteran/adult gamers and the rules have a tactical depth that is not obvious but becomes apparent once you start to play.

I know that 'easy to learn, difficult to master' is a cliché but it really does describe LotR!

For example formations. many would assume that because there are no specific rules for formations that these don’t come into the game. But the beauty of the system is that they do. The basic rules just work so well that you don’t need any rules for formations. It just works when you place your figures in this manner, and you can break a formation in the same way you really would. No need for an artificial modifier to tell you it’s good to charge a formation in the flank, it just is....

Far from being relegated, GW needs to promote it more. Just ask the people from Warhammer historical who have already adapted into 2 periods that are as far away from LotR as you can get with practically no alteration. Its flexibility is outstanding.

Just because you don’t see many player on here don’t equate that with unpopularity. Just check out one-ring and lastalliance to see the state of the LotR community. Its stronger than you think.

Thirdeye
22-03-2008, 15:10
So have the game like Starship Battles? That is too wargammy and GW isn't trying to be a wargame company.


They’re are not!? GW is a lot of things but I’m sure you can put “wargame company” into the mix somewhere.

Regardless, the fact is GW has a unique product with their signature games. These games require periodic support. That’s a good thing for GW. It’s how they can keep things fresh and fun, and continue to suck cash from customers after selling them the basic product. The question is how will they maintain this support? Will they do it in the most responsive and effective way possible, or will they take a cavalier attitude, ignore customer concerns, and do whatever they want confident that their fans will always be there no matter what?

GW’s current practice is somewhere in the middle, but closer to the “cavalier end”. I’m sure we would all like to pull them closer to the other end. Question is, what is the best way we as fans, can effect things?

Templar Ben
22-03-2008, 15:44
They’re are not!? GW is a lot of things but I’m sure you can put “wargame company” into the mix somewhere.

Regardless, the fact is GW has a unique product with their signature games. These games require periodic support. That’s a good thing for GW. It’s how they can keep things fresh and fun, and continue to suck cash from customers after selling them the basic product. The question is how will they maintain this support? Will they do it in the most responsive and effective way possible, or will they take a cavalier attitude, ignore customer concerns, and do whatever they want confident that their fans will always be there no matter what?

GW’s current practice is somewhere in the middle, but closer to the “cavalier end”. I’m sure we would all like to pull them closer to the other end. Question is, what is the best way we as fans, can effect things?

I was having a bit of a go at you. I mean Star Fleet Battles btw. I just play a lot of Starship Battles at the moment so that slipped out.

VetSgtNamaan
22-03-2008, 21:12
Perhaps they are but that is not the real issue. Once a luxury producing company stops listening to the people who buy thier stuff it is a recipe for disaster.

blackspring
22-03-2008, 21:44
What does all the belly aching say ? It says people love to complain, especially over the net about GW stuff, espeically on this site. It shows that for some, modeling isn't even the real draw to 40k, its knowing the system just so you have some place to complain, all the time. As well as something to complain about, from anywhere in the world. Where everybody knows your name. It's kinda like cheers, for the broken gaming soul of the damned.



I used to agree with you on this. But then I began to think about why it is that people complain about GW stuff. There is a good reason and your seeing them posted in a variety of different ways. There are obviously issues with GW's way of doing things.

Also notice that you don't see this kind of whining in regards to any of the other big miniatures companies. In fact, I can't really find much complaining about Privateer Press as they seem to be doing things right. With as much experience as they have, GW should know better, but it is obvious that they don't.

I see many of the counter-arguments to GW based in the idea that they are justified in that they are just trying to make money. As an example, Privateer Press is also trying to make money, but they also happen to be pleasing the customer, which ultimately is a better way to continue making money.

Adept
22-03-2008, 21:49
their problem is LOTR, yes theres a lot of nice models in the range but the game system sucks

The system is clean, flexible, eminently elegant, robust, and intuitive.

Which is more than can be said for the cluster f%#cks that are WHFB and WH40K.


they need to downscale LOTR to a specialist game so more money can be ploughed into the more profitable systems of WFB and W40K

If you believe that, you are sorely misinformed. LotR needs to be carefully managed, with the law of diminishing returns being borne in mind, but it is certainly a game system worth the development investment. LotR will always have a much wider appeal to the masses than any IP GW could ever produce, and there will always be gamers who cut their teeth reading LotR and want to play games set in middle earth. There is a reason LotR sells better than WHFB, despite the anti-LotR attitude of so many stores (by both the gamers and the staff).


Personally i'd like to see GW drop LotR altogether and focus on its 2 core games fora bit. I know some have said LotR still turns a profit and having not seen any Sales reports or anything i can't argue.

However i will note, My local Westgate last year was selling off all its GW stock at half price (i bought way to much) And obviously all th good stuff went really quickly leaving the not so popular stuff dripping slowly off the shelves. Over a year later and i lokked just this morning at what was left.

A few dozen paints (uncommon colours like pink and scorpion green.)
a handfull of now out of date codex's/army books
and a huge full shelf with about 100 boxes of LOTR stuff on it. no 40k no warhammer, just LOTR

'nough said i think, bin it and get on with the origional games

sprugly

One can produce as many examples of anecdotal evidence as one likes, but it will never prove anything. I could tell you about my gaming group, twenty strong, which has all but abandoned 40K and WHFB and moved entirely to LotR. But why would I?

Anyone who thinks the market for a Lord of the Rings wargame is limited or exhausted has rocks in their head. There will be wargamers keen to play LotR games decades after GW has gone bankrupt.

Etienne de Beaugard
23-03-2008, 02:30
On the LotR debate...

I consistently hear two sets of information on LotR. On one hand, a variety of folks claim or quote statistics which demonstrate LotR continued viability and relative strength in sales. On the other, many people (myself included) can provide ample anecdotal evidence that LotR sells comparatively poorly in many GW and FLGS stores.

Can both of these be accurate? Who is buying LotR products? Perhaps LotR (a systems which I increasingly appreciate) might do better with its own support (i.e. mag of its own, sell only to distributors who want the game, pull the game out of GW stores where it does not sell and leave it in stores where it does.)

Cade
23-03-2008, 04:02
This has been an age-old problem.

Codex creep exists, ther is no doubting that.

Each Codex that comes out instantly promotes its subject race to the status of Ultimate Pwnage.

Then the core rules have to be tweaked to help out the races left behind in the Codex arms race.

Then another codex comes out and the core rules change again to compensate.

This has happened ever since Rogue Trader. Anyone who lived through the nightmare of 2nd Edition will tell you that you end up with rulebooks, codexes, white dwarf pages, downloads, forgeworld rules and faqs strewn all over the tabletop in every game.

AND a rules lawyer to work out just who is right in each case of contention.

Then they only way forward is to clear the deck and release an entire new edition.

Each new edition of the game only really works for the first 2 years, then it gets messed up by overly powerful new codecies and FAQs being released to nerf the uber races and buff the weaker ones.

grickherder
23-03-2008, 05:03
On the LotR debate...

I consistently hear two sets of information on LotR. On one hand, a variety of folks claim or quote statistics which demonstrate LotR continued viability and relative strength in sales. On the other, many people (myself included) can provide ample anecdotal evidence that LotR sells comparatively poorly in many GW and FLGS stores.

If you email GW's investor relations, they will tell you that in the last fiscal reporting period, LOTR made up 20% of their gross revenue.

So whether or not it makes sense for GW to keep going with LOTR as the movies become more and more of a distant memory has more to do with information we don't have-- what percent of GW's resources goes to LOTR? If it is a full third because it's a core game and gets almost as much shelf space, design time, etc., as their two other core games, then that's a pretty poor return on their captial.

LOTR brought them in big money while the movies were in the theatres. It doesn't really anymore. So now they are in the unenviable position of the unvieling of a masked decline in 40k and WFB players and with LOTR not selling like it used to.

LuciusAR
23-03-2008, 11:49
If you email GW's investor relations, they will tell you that in the last fiscal reporting period, LOTR made up 20% of their gross revenue.

If true a very respectable amount. It’s also more than the total specialist ranges accounted for even in their peaks, which from what I gather many would like to replace LotR on the shelves. Please note that is a pro-lotr comment, not an anti specialist games one.


So whether or not it makes sense for GW to keep going with LOTR as the movies become more and more of a distant memory has more to do with information we don't have-- what percent of GW's resources goes to LOTR? If it is a full third because it's a core game and gets almost as much shelf space, design time, etc., as their two other core games, then that's a pretty poor return on their captial.

I doubt it’s a full third. Heck I'd be surprised if it was 10%. I think the relative simplicity of the system and the lack of structure breaking special rules means it take a heck of lot less re-writing and play testing than new WFB and 40K releases. Its development overheads are almost certainly minute compared to the other 2 games. With regards to shelf space I'd swiftly like to point out that 40K out sells WFB and LotR by around 2 to 1. Would you really be happy if 40K alone was to get 2/3rds of the shelf space in every store?


LOTR brought them in big money while the movies were in the theatres. It doesn't really anymore. So now they are in the unenviable position of the unvieling of a masked decline in 40k and WFB players and with LOTR not selling like it used to.

Of course it isn’t. It was obvious to all that the mass boost during the films was a fad and many of the gamers buying would soon stop. The sales figures from then where always going to be artificially high during the glory days and they would soon stabilise after the films had gone. This has now happened and LotR is still selling a respectable amount and there is still tons of the 3rd age alone to explore. It was certainly obvious to me, quite how head office didn’t see this was a different matter, but if it wasn’t making them more money than it was costing them they would not have renewed the licence.


On the LotR debate...

I consistently hear two sets of information on LotR. On one hand, a variety of folks claim or quote statistics which demonstrate LotR continued viability and relative strength in sales. On the other, many people (myself included) can provide ample anecdotal evidence that LotR sells comparatively poorly in many GW and FLGS stores.

Can both of these be accurate? Who is buying LotR products? Perhaps LotR (a systems which I increasingly appreciate) might do better with its own support (i.e. mag of its own, sell only to distributors who want the game, pull the game out of GW stores where it does not sell and leave it in stores where it does.)

I'll trust figures over anecdotal evidence any day of the week. For example at my local gaming group 40K is very rarely played. But I wouldn’t dream of using this as evidence of WFB's popularity over 40K's because the figures simply don’t back this up.

It’s my experience that many LotR players buy from on-line Indies and play at home or dedicated clubs, as many gaming stores (both gw and non gw) and much of their clientele seem to be very anti-LotR. That’s the logical conclusion I am drawing based on the figures and from what I have read on the dedicated LotR forums.

TearInTheRain
23-03-2008, 14:38
In the pre LOTR days it was reckoned inside GW retail that ~70% of all sales where 40K related and that ~70% of those where for Marines. (making marines alone ~50% of GW sales)

spaint2k
23-03-2008, 15:46
For future releases I would suggest that instead of doing army/codex releases every few months that they instead do "Segmentum" releases every few months. Those releases would be a unit or two for 3-5 armies that are located in that area. Given that there is a formula they can be balanced to drop into your existing army. I would tie that to mini campaigns in WD with new missions and a
narrative about what is happening and new Apoc Data Sheets that build upon those new units.


That would be the most exciting thing GW had ever done, if they ever had the courage to throw move away from their current system. I love this idea.


The system is clean, flexible, eminently elegant, robust, and intuitive.


I have heard nothing but good things about the system from people I know. Unfortunately, none of them are interested in it - and ironically neither am I (despite a youth spent reading Tolkien). I simply find the idea of playing out scenarios from the movies dull, and battles in Middle Earth never seemed half as appealing as role-playing in Middle Earth.

Steve

Templar Ben
23-03-2008, 15:56
That would be the most exciting thing GW had ever done, if they ever had the courage to throw move away from their current system. I love this idea.

I won't hold that against you. ;)


I have heard nothing but good things about the system from people I know. Unfortunately, none of them are interested in it - and ironically neither am I (despite a youth spent reading Tolkien). I simply find the idea of playing out scenarios from the movies dull, and battles in Middle Earth never seemed half as appealing as role-playing in Middle Earth.

Steve

Well you are not the only person that feels that way. I know some people are not comfortable playing WotC Star Wars game because they know how the movies are and they don't see their story being as big in that arc.

ChrisAsmadi
24-03-2008, 01:56
I have heard nothing but good things about the system from people I know. Unfortunately, none of them are interested in it - and ironically neither am I (despite a youth spent reading Tolkien). I simply find the idea of playing out scenarios from the movies dull, and battles in Middle Earth never seemed half as appealing as role-playing in Middle Earth.

Steve


Ditto.

That and they picked, IMO, the worst age in Middle Earth Lore anyway.

The second age is alot cooler.

Logarithm Udgaur
24-03-2008, 10:00
Nothing says they will not expand the range into the other Ages, although it will take a while for them to exhaust all the Third Age material. Consequently, that is probably the reason they picked the Third Age, it being the one with the most source material.

Templar Ben
24-03-2008, 12:17
Nothing says they will not expand the range into the other Ages, although it will take a while for them to exhaust all the Third Age material. Consequently, that is probably the reason they picked the Third Age, it being the one with the most source material.

It was all about what was on the Big Screen. People were clamoring for the Fellowship and GW did the natural thing and fulfill that need.

Grimshawl
24-03-2008, 15:26
GW is definitely in over there heads, the fact they cant be bothered to update their FAQs or even keep a half of their codex'es up to date of their latest edision is just another anchor slowly dragging them down.

Luckywallace
24-03-2008, 18:33
WARNING! Long, rambling post ahead...

Not sure about G.W. "in over their heads". They have let the 40k system get into a bit of a mess. I believe that they will sort it all out, but this will take a fair bit of time to do.

While I don't play LOTR and don't care much for it (besides admiring the nice miniatures which I will never buy myself) it clearly makes money for G.W. so those wanting them to drop it are living in a bit of a dream world. It won't happen so just try and ignore it and avoid buying those issues of White Dwarf that focus on it.

Anyway, WHFB I think is in a good place at the moment. While I felt 7th edition was not needed it did do a good job of tidying some things up and the 5-models for a rank was a good alteration. The old army books from 6th edition generally work very well with 7th and while the new 7th edition books are noticeably differant (tendancy towards army-wide special rules instead of unit-specific ones... Waagh! SOA for High Elves etc.) things still mostly line-up.
This is a big generalisation and I know there will be people who have issues with some older army books (probably Dark Elves and Mortals of Chaos mostly) but the system seems to be well set-up to allow the older army books to remain balanced (more or less) with the newer versions of the books.

However, 40k is in a bit of a state. I strongly believe that 4th edition is a fine rule set as it is and does not need a 5th edition. No, 40k is not the game for the master stratergist but it allows for quick, exciting play and there is nothing really wrong with 4th edition (unlike 3rd, where the assault rules had gone through so many revisions nobody knew what they were anymore).

G.W. took a big change in direction during 40k 4th edition, somewhere around the Eldar/Dark Angels codex releases. They seemed to cut-down on troops/characters having a highly diverse range of options and narrowed them down to a more characterful/restrained set, as well as cutting out sub-lists (Eldar craftworlds/chaos legions/ork clans etc.) and allowing the one single list to be flexible enough to build an army based on these old themes.

Whether this is good or bad I leave to you to decide (personally I love it, even the chaos codex). However, this change was working perfectly fine within the ruleset of 4th edition. Yes, a few of the codex books produced for 4th edition did not now match this system (Space Marines, Black Templars, Tau Empire... Tyranids actually did match this system perfectly since they never had an armoury and never had variant lists)... but none of these books were un-balanced with the system and would work okay until their turn came around for a re-do.

As they stand, I would consider the armies in the following state...

All the following armies are (or are soon to be) recently updated and work fine
- Chaos Daemons
- Orks
- Chaos Space Marines (with variant 'legion' codex books somewhere on the horizon)
- Eldar
- Dark Angels (and Blood Angels of course)

Those released in 4th edition but before Eldar/Dark Angels new direction
- Tau Empire (generally work okay, most Tau players semi-happy, not a priority to update)
- Black Templars (not quite in-line with 'new' space marines, I guess they need revising but should NOT be a priority)
- Tyranids (besides 'nid zilla' being overpowered they are fine and fit perfectly with the 'new direction')
- Space Marines (while I dislike GW's focus on marines they DO need to be revisited to bring in-line with Dark/Blood Angels and Chaos Marines. Since they are so popular their army book has a major impact on the game dynamic so it should be bought up-to-date swiftly).

Old 3rd edition armies
- Witch Hunters (not bad, clearly designed with 4th edition in-mind. A few units are not worth it, but enough solid choices and still competative. Low priority).
- Daemon Hunters (not as competative as WitchHunters but most Daemon Hunter players seem happy enough and a very niche army. Low priority).
- Imperial Guard (Looking a bit dated in a galaxy with a 6 point Ork Shoota Boy. I know guard players are scared of loosing doctrines but I feel they should be a priority to update).
- Necrons (still a competative, workable army but a bit limited/boring. "We'll Be Back" really needs to change to "Feel No Pain" to speed things up and prevent necron players being forced to lie their models down and some army choices are very under-powered in spite of awesome background and/or models (Pariahs).
- Space Wolves (the poor Space Pups have been neglected of late. They don't work very well with the 4th edition Marine codex and never quite did. They really deserve their own codex, as much as Blood/Dark Angels do.)
- Dark Eldar (oh dear... poor Dark Eldar players, their codex is woefully out of date. This really should be a priority update).

So... in conclusion from my rant, here is my proposed schedule (assuming that 5th edition is inevitable even though I don't think it is needed).

- Codex: Chaos Daemons (confirmed)
- Warhammer 40,000: 5th Edition (pretty much confirmed)
- Codex: Space Marines (almost inevitable... bring in combat squads etc.)
- Codex: Dark Eldar (give them some love... it would be about time)
- Codex: Necrons (I'd prioritise over Guard but others may disagree. FNP in-place of WBB and make some units more useable (Pariahs/Wraiths/Flayed Ones) to add army variety).
- Codex: Imperial Guard (I relaly think the average Guardsman needs to be cheaper than an Ork boy. I'll leave it to the I.G. players to decide the other changes that need to be made (or not))
- Codex: Space Wolves (yes, they need an update but marines get too much love in general so I'll take I.G. and Necrons first).
- Codex: Inquisition (the long-rumoured 3-in-1 Inquisitor codex...)

spaint2k
24-03-2008, 18:41
Y'know, I can't disagree with a word Luckywallace has said. This might just be a little off-topic, but I just wanted to say that I played a game of 2nd edition 40K on Saturday, and it was the best game of 40K I've had for years. It was certainly a damn sight more fun than waiting for GW to sort out the galactic mess referred to in the post above, and has the added "advantage" of being a dead ruleset, so I never need to try and keep up with the latest changes and modifications to the rules.

Steve

Supremearchmarshal
24-03-2008, 19:10
Y'know, I can't disagree with a word Luckywallace has said. This might just be a little off-topic, but I just wanted to say that I played a game of 2nd edition 40K on Saturday, and it was the best game of 40K I've had for years. It was certainly a damn sight more fun than waiting for GW to sort out the galactic mess referred to in the post above, and has the added "advantage" of being a dead ruleset, so I never need to try and keep up with the latest changes and modifications to the rules.

Steve

I've had a similar experience a few months ago, but with 1st edition. In particular I liked the way I had more control over my units (splitting up squads, for example) and the rules somehow seemed more realistic - e.g. everyone can use cover, running, grenades that can be thrown, smoke screens etc.

yabbadabba
24-03-2008, 20:43
There is definitely a bit of Ring envy going on here.

I cannot find a single reason for GW to drop or relegate LoTR from their line up. I bet there isn't a single LoTR player who wouldn't LOVE a 2nd Age or similar expansion, but we will have to wait and see. And spaint2k - I haven't played any of the scenarios from the movie since the first incarnation of FoTR. Sorry I did playtest one with Adam Troke (name drop, name drop) but other than that I'd rather have games where I get to choose my toys :D.

thinkerman
25-03-2008, 00:17
Is G.W. over there heads???

Yes and no IMO, there are certain decisions made which seem the worst in the world when you really think about them, then other times there the best.

If you take the LOTR for as my first example, i ask anyone "is there a structured plan for releases or is it just random stuff with new units everytime to sell more miniatures???"

Looking at the past range of things its been source books, random campaign books, odds and ends but with no real direction. It be nice if the took a step back and thought about where they want to be in say 5 years with the game rather than all the work and development each time going to waste if there is no plan for it.

Now if the current LOTR range, rules etc will be updated, reorganised and incorporated with 'the Hobbit film' who knows but i wish they had a long term plan for things be it army books for each race: Realms of men, elves, dwarfs, Mordor etc then split the book into 1st, 2nd and 3rd age respectfully, combine this with focused releases of several units and characters for each race from any age.

Either way i think LOTR needs a massive sort out - Rules are fine but give us proper army books and not random stuff every 4 months please

Warhammer 40,000. This is the hardest nut of all.

As best put....

-theres not enough developers
-too short deadlines and rush to deliver product as fast as possible
-no long term plan for the game/rules, codexes, direction and continued development of the universe
-no errata or updates in the form of chapter approved anymore
-Long neglected ranges and armies to be re-developed
-All releases planed around new minis rather than Armies (wouldnt be so bad if they released a new plastic guard sprue like DKOK infantry only and a book and left you to convert and use the exsisting range of plastics like russ and sentinel already avaliable to complete your army)
-Shooting themselves in the foot with half done codexes for half the races released for 3rd and 4th ed to be outdated by a new edition of the rules to then re issues the already updated codexes AGAIN

Logarithm Udgaur
25-03-2008, 01:17
-no errata or updates in the form of chapter approved anymore


This is one of the things I miss the most. Back when WD was a gaming mag and not just 40 pages of ad space, I actually subscribed. Now I will pick up maybe 1 a year.
Unless 5th edition is a complete revision of the rules (which it is not if the rumors are true), I will be keeping my shakedown money.

Teran
25-03-2008, 08:20
In a way, it seems Necron were made with 5th edition in mind, or perhaps I should say 5th edition was made with Necron and some older armies in mind. I bought 4th when it came out, but honestly I haven't played seriously since 3rd edition. They butchered my Dark Angels codex and turned the army into something I could have created from the vanilla marines codex and lost the will to play in tournaments which in turn means I lost the will to expand my army. I still play the occasional friendly game with the folks at my local store but as a whole I have lost interest in 40K... though 5th edition might make my troop based army more viable, I'll have to check it out when it arrives.

Personally I have switched to fantasy, though I still haven't made the dollar investment yet (picking up dark elf when the new codex hits) because Fantasy seems to be going in the opposite direction. Where 40K often (especially locally) just feels like variations of space marines fighting each other (including necrons and other SM like armies) Fantasy really is a fun game to watch and play because of this uniqueness.

thinkerman
25-03-2008, 10:50
Where 40K often (especially locally) just feels like variations of space marines fighting each other (including necrons and other SM like armies)

40K has gotten very boring, it tends to boil down to players sitting there with space marine gun lines shooting each other then someone eventually makes to move and chargers as shooting takes too long to kill stuff.

Ive seen 3 hours go by with Marines sitting in buildings across from marines sitting in buildings shooting each other, only killing the odd model here and there and it sucks!

Far too many games result in this in 40k, fantasy however allows players to move units more quickly around the board and hopefully in 5th ed with there "run" rule it will be the same.

sliganian
25-03-2008, 15:19
On the LoTR issue, what I've heard is that LoTR is HUGE on mainland Europe (Germany especially). So huge in fact that gamers there wonder why GW bothers with these other games -- WHFB and 40K. It is a solid system with a solid audience. The fact that audience may not be native English speakers seems to mean that it is off the rader of most players posting in an English speaking net forum.

Now take the North American side: 40K is king. Followed distantly by Fantasty. Somewhere, we hear, someone plays LoTR but we've never seen evidence of that. :)

However, I do think GW needs to pay attention to its market segmentation a bit more. But that's enough biz talk for one thread....

Osbad
25-03-2008, 16:43
On the LoTR issue, what I've heard is that LoTR is HUGE on mainland Europe (Germany especially). So huge in fact that gamers there wonder why GW bothers with these other games -- WHFB and 40K. It is a solid system with a solid audience. The fact that audience may not be native English speakers seems to mean that it is off the rader of most players posting in an English speaking net forum.

If you run Alexa on TLA (the largest LotR fansite) it tells you that the site is most popular in Poland!!!

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details/thelastalliance.com?compare_sites=&range=2y&size=large&y=r#top

Another little-know fact (and perhaps deservedly so) is that laguerradelanillo.com (the largest Spanish language LotR fansite) is more popular than www.herr-der-ringe-tabletop.de (the largest German language LotR fansite)...

:)

But, generally I agree that LotR is apprently very popular in mainland Europe, whereas 40k and WFB are disappearing without trace on "the continent". Or so it seems to this observer!

tsutek
25-03-2008, 16:54
GW are in over their heads. Doing 'niche' -audience wargames from a perspective of 'pop-culture commercial strategies'.. man, it can't work!

Like I said on a previous thread, GW should just stick to selling licences to their IP and making miniatures. Let someone else come up with ways to play with the toys.

I can always design my own ultra-l337-satisfying rules for any imaginary 3D tabletop game. It would take a hell of an effort, not to mention taking a long time to do, but I bet I could do it. But what I cannot do, and what keeps my money going to GW, is their brilliant minis!

I've tried looking for an alternative source for quality minis, but there is none - All the other manufacturers are either doing amateurishly ugly sculpts, or are doing such a limited selection of minis that I cannot hope to base any kind of interesting game system around their limited choice of models.

I wish the future would catch up with us so the community could start making it's own miniatures. (everyone using their 3d-printer to make stuff from open source 3d-CAD-files) Then, and only then would there exist a reason for GW to reassess their marketing strategies. Their minis are simply too good for the competition, in terms of selection and overall sculpt quality..