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him_15
19-03-2008, 02:14
I am gonna play against TK this week in a 2k battle
As far as I know, he's got 2 units of four chariots each, a block of archer, horsemen, 3 scorpion (nasty) and 2 scream catapult (even nasty)
My army is leaded by count manfred, with a vampire, wight king BSB and a necromancer, troop include a block of skeleton, crypt ghouls and grave guards, a unit of 5 dive wolves, vargulf, and 3 wraiths (banshee upgrade) and a crospe cart. My list is based on heavy magic (10 PD) and a couple of bound spell item.
So how do I deal with charge from those deadly chariot and rock from those bloody scream catapult? My army move rather slow compare to his, so I have to prepare for charge and hold the ground with the aim of magic. I can't afford any other model because I simply don't have them. So I need to rely on what I've got so far. No flyer, no knight. no hope?
btw, marcus, hope you are not reading this post...

English 2000
19-03-2008, 02:19
By the looks of it you only have two core (skellies and ghouls). You need 3.
Wolves don't count towards min core choices.

I would suggest great weapons on vamps. S7 is your friend against chariots.
Also, perhaps the frostblade - every unsaved wound autokills.
TK have a lot of multi-wound things - frostblade is your friend here.
A lot of people will tell you that it's overkill, but I plan to stat using it here and there against TK and ogres.

him_15
19-03-2008, 02:25
WOW, thank you for telling me that..gonna add 10 ghouls for another unit.
I know frost-blade is great, but I really wanna stick on count manfred....so it is basically out of questions...any more suggestions? would be pleased to hear...

Lordmonkey
19-03-2008, 02:48
Lots and lots and lots of ~20-size units of infantry. UD vs UD, massed ranks and superior magic will win the day.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
19-03-2008, 02:53
U could use bats or more dire wolves to thwart the chariots. Could you not summon zombies in his face to cut off a charge route.. Good luck!:)

him_15
19-03-2008, 02:58
Lots and lots and lots of ~20-size units of infantry. UD vs UD, massed ranks and superior magic will win the day.
yes, but I really can't afford more miniatures, these are what I have got so far, and also it's those chariots that threatening me, So I would need an alternative way to deal with them...

him_15
19-03-2008, 03:06
U could use bats or more dire wolves to thwart the chariots. Could you not summon zombies in his face to cut off a charge route.. Good luck!:)

I have got two units of dire wolves with 5 of them each...wanna use full strength of them, probably gonna send them to flank chariot or hunt down those darn screen catapult..

Yhcrana
19-03-2008, 03:07
I used my VC vs a Tk army in the weekend, the chariots don't hit that hard its only d3 str 4 hits each, I made sure a block of 20 skeletons was in the way then I flank charged with another block of skeletons and he crumbled along with his lord, game set and match.

him_15
19-03-2008, 03:29
I used my VC vs a Tk army in the weekend, the chariots don't hit that hard its only d3 str 4 hits each, I made sure a block of 20 skeletons was in the way then I flank charged with another block of skeletons and he crumbled along with his lord, game set and match.

IC...So simply wait for them to charge and make impact..and flank them with other units...got it..cheers.

najo
19-03-2008, 06:18
Well, first off, make your vampire hero fly or scout and have great weapon with his powers. Then protect him with magic items. Let him go into your enemy's rear ranks and kill the warmachines and other smaller units.

With Manfred, take the skull staff and crimson gem so he can out cast anything the tomb kings have.

Take dispell scrolls and stop the tomb king movement.

Make sure to have very solid units with numbers. Take the invocation buffer powers that let you summon over your starting numbers. I would think that ghouls would do well against tomb kings, as would grave gaurd with great weapons.

You might want a vampire with talisman of lynci and summon creatures of the night. Send him with the wolves to kill stuff.

Frankly
19-03-2008, 07:38
If you actually write out a list so its more clare then it'd be easier to help you.

him_15
19-03-2008, 08:43
Well, first off, make your vampire hero fly or scout and have great weapon with his powers. Then protect him with magic items. Let him go into your enemy's rear ranks and kill the warmachines and other smaller units.

With Manfred, take the skull staff and crimson gem so he can out cast anything the tomb kings have.

Take dispell scrolls and stop the tomb king movement.

Make sure to have very solid units with numbers. Take the invocation buffer powers that let you summon over your starting numbers. I would think that ghouls would do well against tomb kings, as would grave gaurd with great weapons.

You might want a vampire with talisman of lynci and summon creatures of the night. Send him with the wolves to kill stuff.

Thx for your useful comments, I've already give manfred the skull staff, so this buddy now costs me more than 500 point....as for the flying vampire, I haven't got my self a winged vampire yet...but it's a interesting idea. The same applies for summon creature exceeds starting number, I really wanna go for that way, but I just don't have any more miniatures...

him_15
19-03-2008, 08:47
If you actually write out a list so its more clare then it'd be easier to help you.

Ok, this is my list so far, been thinking of dropping some skeleton and raise them with mannred. thus save more point for something else

Vampire Count 2k list

Count Mannred 475
Skull Staff 65
Total: 540

Necromancer 55
The book of Arkan 35
Total: 90

Vampire 100
Dark Acolyte 30
Avatar of Death 20
Hand of dust 50
Total: 200

Skeleton*19
Full command 20
War banner 25
Total: 197

Crypt Ghoul* 10
Crypt Ghast
Total: 88

Crypt Ghoul*10
Crypt Ghast
Total: 88

Dire Wolves* 5
Doom Wolves
Total: 60

Dire Wolves* 5
Doom Wolves
Total: 60

Corpse Cart 75

Grave Guard* 19
Full command: 30
Banner of Strigos 35
Total: 293

Varghulf 175

Cairn Wraiths* 3
Banshee
Total: 175

Eigilb
19-03-2008, 10:35
The way I see it as a TK player, the the TK wont stand a living chance(:p living chance!) against the new VC. They got cheaper skellies, with the same stats, insane hitters, Monster flyers (Vargulf?) this one can flank the chariots and they are done with for goood! Their Characters are way better, both magic and fighters, they can get around 20 PD or something. They got heavy cav....

Some one mentioned the SSC. But honestly! One of its strengths is that it causes panic with -1 to LD, and how is that effective against VC? Ofcourse it will deal out some dmg, but it will merely be a shadow of itself..

And by the way mate, why donīt you guys use stand ins? That will make your game much more diverse, and you will know the cons and pros of your troops before you buy and paint them. Nothing worse than having bought expensive models, and finding that they do jack on the battlefield IMO

Spirit
19-03-2008, 11:48
yes, but I really can't afford more miniatures, these are what I have got so far, and also it's those chariots that threatening me, So I would need an alternative way to deal with them...


Vampire
Hunter in the dark
Avatar of death (great weapon)
Talisman of lycni
Flayed Hauberk
Battle standard bearer

GG chariots.

Dump the cairn wraiths for this baby, itl do alot more damage.

If you don't think the chariots re a threat, try this combination.

Vampire
Hunter in the dark
Infinite hatred
Battle standard bearer
Flayed Hauberk
Talisman of lycni
Sword of battle

So thats 4 hatred S5 attacks and +1 to combat res, and you need to LOSE a combat by 3 to die, with a 2+ save and scouting.

That one is GG archers and GG screaming catapults, pick whichever unit will cause you the most trouble and kill them! (Did i mention he scouts AND is a lvl 1 mage?)

nikkcookie
19-03-2008, 12:25
trust me VC vs TK without lists VC has the advantage.

him_15
19-03-2008, 14:05
Vampire
Hunter in the dark
Avatar of death (great weapon)
Talisman of lycni
Flayed Hauberk
Battle standard bearer

GG chariots.

Dump the cairn wraiths for this baby, itl do alot more damage.

If you don't think the chariots re a threat, try this combination.

Vampire
Hunter in the dark
Infinite hatred
Battle standard bearer
Flayed Hauberk
Talisman of lycni
Sword of battle

So thats 4 hatred S5 attacks and +1 to combat res, and you need to LOSE a combat by 3 to die, with a 2+ save and scouting.

That one is GG archers and GG screaming catapults, pick whichever unit will cause you the most trouble and kill them! (Did i mention he scouts AND is a lvl 1 mage?)

I don't know whether I will find the chariot or catapult more threatening...really not sure..But I really hate those catapult firing on my infantry, so I would probably go for your second option. cheers~

Jack of Blades
19-03-2008, 14:35
Equip one hero with 2 Power Stones, a Hellsteed and the Balefire Spike. Can toast his Hierophant/High Priest/Tomb King, and has a lot of potential with the Lore of Light. Plus, if he dies, it's not your general!

EDIT: Doh, forgot to mention Forbidden Lore; Lore of Light, too.

Gazak Blacktoof
19-03-2008, 14:38
I don't know whether I will find the chariot or catapult more threatening...really not sure..But I really hate those catapult firing on my infantry, so I would probably go for your second option. cheers~

Firepower is a bit of a waste against VC. I wouldn't worry about the catapult too much, your units wont run away and you can always add more bodies to your army.

Spirit
19-03-2008, 14:58
Well yes, but also, chariots can be led and thrown into terrain with zombie raising. Id kill the catapults as well, its the easiest way to get alot of easy VP against TK. Also, a varghulf or 2 should stop any chariots in their tracks. Cairn wraiths also, but id be worried about magic missiles hitting 50 point T3 2W troops tbh.

Mazdug
19-03-2008, 15:19
TK are pretty much crippled against VC right now, I wouldn't worry about it. You can easily outnumber him, outfight him, out manuever him, and outcast him. Since nothing you have is subject to fear or panic, his biggest advantages dissapear. Just make sure to keep your unit sizes up, and you'll do fine.

CarlostheCraven
19-03-2008, 16:22
Hi

The most disturbing thing about your opponent's army, and which most people seem to be overlooking, is the three scorpions. One killing blow to Mannfred and its over. For that reason alone, I would switch to a lord with Cadaverous Cuirrass. Use the Mannfred model, but call him Mannfreb. :p

You may be able to protect against this possilbity, but I would be rather worried about it.

Cheers,
Carlos the Craven

W0lf
19-03-2008, 16:56
Yer manfred and killing blow really really dont mix.

One killing blow and its game over (640 VPs for opponent = ouch)

Eigilb
19-03-2008, 20:18
Zombies might be the answer to the Scorpion problem, if they last long enough or you keep summoning the scopion might even die to crumble... (If youīre lucky, and got 1-2 ranks + outnumber

najo
20-03-2008, 07:38
With regards to tomb kings being weaker than vampires, this is not true. The power levels have always been about where they were before. Vampires is still a close combat army dependant on magic. It risks miscasting, it is not nearly as tactically flexible as the Tomb kings are.

Bone Giants, Tomb Scorpions, Ustabi, Tomb King in a chariot unit, Skull Catapults with liches making them shoot twice a turn. The casket of souls!

this stuff is going to hurt vampires as much as it did before. Tomb Kings take alot of skill to play well. Vampires did get a bit more flexible and dependable, they can flank easier now too with the new vampire options, but overall just deploy properily and then concentrate on the right targets and Tomb Kings are good.

Mazdug
20-03-2008, 16:07
With regards to tomb kings being weaker than vampires, this is not true. The power levels have always been about where they were before. Vampires is still a close combat army dependant on magic. It risks miscasting, it is not nearly as tactically flexible as the Tomb kings are.

Bone Giants, Tomb Scorpions, Ustabi, Tomb King in a chariot unit, Skull Catapults with liches making them shoot twice a turn. The casket of souls!

this stuff is going to hurt vampires as much as it did before. Tomb Kings take alot of skill to play well. Vampires did get a bit more flexible and dependable, they can flank easier now too with the new vampire options, but overall just deploy properily and then concentrate on the right targets and Tomb Kings are good.

I would beg to disagree. I think TK and VC where well balanced prior to the new VC book. I played many games against my vampire rivals, and usually it was fairly well balanced. But VC just got a huge boost in power, and very little of import was nerfed. Sure, they can't raise new skeleton units anymore, but most people I know almost always used zombies for their speed bumps, and so I think little will be changed there. I'm sure you've heard it said that to win in a warhammer battle, you have to dominate two of the phases, well, I no longer see how that is possible for TK against VC. They now have signifigantly better manueverability, they have the ability to take magic that is atleast on par, if not far superior to ours, and they are way better in close combat. All that leaves us is shooting, and while our shooting is very good against most armies, the undead nature of vampire troops prevents the biggest advantage the Screaming Skull Catapult bestows, and even with a ton of bowmen, you aren't going to kill more VC units then they can raise casting invocation 7 times a magic phase. I think, for the time being, its fair to say that TK stink against VC. Hopefully, this will change down the line, but for now, its along the lines of DE vs HE, if the TK/DE player wins, its because they are brilliant, and the other player screwed up bad.

Eigilb
20-03-2008, 20:13
I would beg to disagree. I think TK and VC where well balanced prior to the new VC book. I played many games against my vampire rivals, and usually it was fairly well balanced. But VC just got a huge boost in power, and very little of import was nerfed. Sure, they can't raise new skeleton units anymore, but most people I know almost always used zombies for their speed bumps, and so I think little will be changed there. I'm sure you've heard it said that to win in a warhammer battle, you have to dominate two of the phases, well, I no longer see how that is possible for TK against VC. They now have signifigantly better manueverability, they have the ability to take magic that is atleast on par, if not far superior to ours, and they are way better in close combat. All that leaves us is shooting, and while our shooting is very good against most armies, the undead nature of vampire troops prevents the biggest advantage the Screaming Skull Catapult bestows, and even with a ton of bowmen, you aren't going to kill more VC units then they can raise casting invocation 7 times a magic phase. I think, for the time being, its fair to say that TK stink against VC. Hopefully, this will change down the line, but for now, its along the lines of DE vs HE, if the TK/DE player wins, its because they are brilliant, and the other player screwed up bad.


Totally agree. GW are really boosting the armies ATM, and IMO it makes the game temporarily unbalanced.

Frankly
21-03-2008, 01:20
... they have the ability to take magic that is atleast on par, if not far superior to ours, and they are way better in close combat. All that leaves us is shooting....


Yeah I agree, the V.C. magic phase can actually play like a TK magic phase and run for a while being immune to miscasts, i.e; lots of bound spells lots of single dice neheking and them you can get alot of good spells of on 2 or 3 dice.

The V.C. magic phase has had a huge up grade.

I think the key to winning against V.C. is the shooting/shooting magic phases AND THEN dispelling neheks in his magic phase AND THEN getting straight into combat the next turn with fast moving chariots etc, etc..

Yes that is a heap of work., but that extra shooting phase in your tool box that the V.C. armies don't have has to count for something.

najo
21-03-2008, 11:04
I would beg to disagree. I think TK and VC where well balanced prior to the new VC book. I played many games against my vampire rivals, and usually it was fairly well balanced. But VC just got a huge boost in power, and very little of import was nerfed. Sure, they can't raise new skeleton units anymore, but most people I know almost always used zombies for their speed bumps, and so I think little will be changed there. I'm sure you've heard it said that to win in a warhammer battle, you have to dominate two of the phases, well, I no longer see how that is possible for TK against VC. They now have signifigantly better manueverability, they have the ability to take magic that is atleast on par, if not far superior to ours, and they are way better in close combat. All that leaves us is shooting, and while our shooting is very good against most armies, the undead nature of vampire troops prevents the biggest advantage the Screaming Skull Catapult bestows, and even with a ton of bowmen, you aren't going to kill more VC units then they can raise casting invocation 7 times a magic phase. I think, for the time being, its fair to say that TK stink against VC. Hopefully, this will change down the line, but for now, its along the lines of DE vs HE, if the TK/DE player wins, its because they are brilliant, and the other player screwed up bad.

The vampires do not have the fliexbility of the tomb kings. For each thin teh vampires gained the lost something too, zombies are harder to use or hide characters in. The overall power curve of the vampire was reigned back in (a vampire lord is the last edition's count and the powerful blood dragon bloodline powers are gone). Core choices got harder to cheese out. Dire wolves were weakened. Most of the vampire spells had their ranges cut down. Vampires lost most of their powerful arcane items and talismans. Banshees require wraiths now.

The main changes are the varghulf, corpse cart and blood knights, plus the vampire rule. Now I will give you the vampire rule gives the VCs more movement, but they lost pure power (the old vampire lord, a pure ward save, blood dragon powers and power familiar, etc). So, Tomb Kings still have hard hitters like chariots w/ king, bone giant, uhstabi, or bone scorpion. All TKs need to do is kill the vampire and corpse cart units quickly, and then vampire counts plays like a weakened version of its previous self and tomb kings is fine. Tomb King players need to refocus the way they fight against vampires now is all.

Gazak Blacktoof
21-03-2008, 11:21
I don't think you can seriously be suggesting that VC haven't got any heavy hitters, can you?

Black Knights, Vargulfs, Blood Knights, Black Coaches and vampires themselves all have huge combat potential.

Granted I've not played with or against them yet but the current VC seem to have better magic and be faster overall than last edition's VC.

Shooting is the only element the counts lack at the moment and the undead (particularly vampire counts) don't suffer on the table top due to lack of shooting support in the same way that other armies do with the same defficiency.

Eigilb
21-03-2008, 12:04
The vampires do not have the fliexbility of the tomb kings. For each thin teh vampires gained the lost something too, zombies are harder to use or hide characters in. The overall power curve of the vampire was reigned back in (a vampire lord is the last edition's count and the powerful blood dragon bloodline powers are gone). Core choices got harder to cheese out. Dire wolves were weakened. Most of the vampire spells had their ranges cut down. Vampires lost most of their powerful arcane items and talismans. Banshees require wraiths now.

The main changes are the varghulf, corpse cart and blood knights, plus the vampire rule. Now I will give you the vampire rule gives the VCs more movement, but they lost pure power (the old vampire lord, a pure ward save, blood dragon powers and power familiar, etc). So, Tomb Kings still have hard hitters like chariots w/ king, bone giant, uhstabi, or bone scorpion. All TKs need to do is kill the vampire and corpse cart units quickly, and then vampire counts plays like a weakened version of its previous self and tomb kings is fine. Tomb King players need to refocus the way they fight against vampires now is all.


This canīt be serious. The new changes make VC one of the most powered armies in the game ATM, insane magic, and hard hitters. Do you even consider that bloodknights can charge 28" (marching and magic charge) in one phace, or that a Vargulf can take out the TK heirophant in the first turn, with a magical flying charge... Iīd say that the VC are a least as mobile as the TK, while less fragile due to the Vampire rule.
Tk have only their liches to boost their movement. Magic-wise, i'd say the two armies at least macth eachother. At least...

Mazdug
21-03-2008, 14:20
The vampires do not have the fliexbility of the tomb kings. For each thin teh vampires gained the lost something too, zombies are harder to use or hide characters in. The overall power curve of the vampire was reigned back in (a vampire lord is the last edition's count and the powerful blood dragon bloodline powers are gone). Core choices got harder to cheese out. Dire wolves were weakened. Most of the vampire spells had their ranges cut down. Vampires lost most of their powerful arcane items and talismans. Banshees require wraiths now.

The main changes are the varghulf, corpse cart and blood knights, plus the vampire rule. Now I will give you the vampire rule gives the VCs more movement, but they lost pure power (the old vampire lord, a pure ward save, blood dragon powers and power familiar, etc). So, Tomb Kings still have hard hitters like chariots w/ king, bone giant, uhstabi, or bone scorpion. All TKs need to do is kill the vampire and corpse cart units quickly, and then vampire counts plays like a weakened version of its previous self and tomb kings is fine. Tomb King players need to refocus the way they fight against vampires now is all.

I'm going to have to disagree here. While dire wolves are weaker, they can now be raised, and they can march all game if kept near a varghulf or blood knights, which is a HUGE advantage for them. The banshees do require wraiths, but thats not really a disadvantage, it increases their survivability, allows them to hit hard in combat, and doesn't limit their line of site. The only downside is the increased points cost. Zombies are sucky now, I'll give you that, but their skeletons are CHEAPER, and better armed, then TK Skellies. Having looked at a lot of the min/maxing combos people have put together already, and with the inclusion of the varghulf and the knights of blood keep, I don't see how you can say they don't hit as hard. Not only that, but they can boost their core units WS, allowing their wights to get even more hits, and thus more kills.

Now, I don't use a bone giant, I want to, I do, but I just can't find a place for the damn thing in my list. Its just not killy enough for its points, especially when compared to the casket or catapults, but I don't really think it is any harder hitting then knights of blood keep, or a tooled up vampire. The scorpions are still great (when they show up), and the ushabti are awesome (although I still think they should be a few less points), but they are slower then the VC units of comparable power, and chariots with King are nice, but a big points sink for something that can be easily stopped by VC. How do you propose that TK kill the vampires and corpse carts quickly I must ask? If they can outmanuever TK, they get to pick the fights, so I doubt their Vamps will be fighting anything they don't want to. I suppose you could drop skulls on the carts, but I'm not positive thats the best choice of targets when things like knights of blood keep are running around. I'm really thinking that the only way to beat VC at this point is to tailor your list to fight them (a policy I am strictly against), and then gunline it with khalida.

Frankly
21-03-2008, 14:53
Najo, I got to agree with everyone else here.

I don't think V.C. have had a huge power curve, but I do think they're been tightened up to play better, that alone is an advantage over TK that have some tactical problems(i.e. fast cavalry that aren't fast).

Urgat
21-03-2008, 15:49
Totally agree. GW are really boosting the armies ATM, and IMO it makes the game temporarily unbalanced.

Quoted for truth. TK players gotta wait a bit, sure, but I suppose their next book is gonna be scary. Just be patient :)

unforgiven555
21-03-2008, 16:44
Do you even consider that bloodknights can charge 28" (marching and magic charge)...

Vampires would be pretty insane if Vans worked the same way as Mankara's Incantation of Urgency. Fortunately it doesn't.. and can only be used to move a unit an additional 8" once per turn. In addition, the only way to ensure they get it (outside of a bound spell pwr lvl 3) is buying it for a necromancer - meaning they're either hoping to roll for it or taking a necro. Necromancers are stuck at level one, which hurts their casting ability. While rolling for it isn't unlikely with a potential of 10 spells it won't be available to every caster, as it is in the TK army.

I do think the matchup is favored for VC, but not hopeless. Casket helps against their magic phase. Generally they'll have 7 dispel dice (possibly +1 to dispel) to your 13 (and they're going to dispel casket with stats like ld3 meaning an average of 6 casualties), meaning you'll likely be getting a few key spells in. If you use these efficiently, they'll give you the maneuverability advantage over VC.

What really sets the VC vs TK match-up apart is ghouls. They really outmatch your skeletons, hitting on 3+ with double the attacks and an additional march at the beginning of the game.

Eigilb
21-03-2008, 16:49
Vampires would be pretty broken if Vans worked the same way as Mankara's Incantation of Urgency. Fortunately it don't.. and can only be used to move a unit an additional 8" once per turn.


My bad on the reseach part, but they still have charge range of 22" which is alot for heavy cav like this even though they are subject to frenzy.

najo
21-03-2008, 18:47
Ok, just bare with me here...


I never said the Vampire counts didn't get tightened up or more fluid. I agree they move better and are a more playable army now.

I also understand why it seems they are stronger. But your paying points for everything. Why the vampire counts play stronger and move better is the synergy between their units because of the new vampire rule and the way their necromancy spells work are allowing the Vampires to play different from before.

I never said the vampires didn't have heavy hitters, I said the main differences between the old vampire army and the new one is the vampire units, necormancy and the corpse cart.

Ok, so with that in mind. You have to play against vampires differently now. Vampires do move and flank better than before. But their overall uber characters were tonned down a bit (the Vampire Lord is gone, the blood dragon powers are mostly gone).

If any army plays against vampires the way they used to, they are going to find themelves surrounded and unable to stop the invocations of nehek. They are going to be slammed by the blood knights and the varghulf unexpected. The corpse cart is letting undead units ASF.

So, you have to deal with these elements first. Throw skull catapults at the varghulf or bloodknights. Drop carrion down near vampire units and the undead around them and march block them. Send scorpions to engage these vampire units, support them with liche magic.

Use the casket of souls to mess with the vampire magic. Focus on stopping the van hel's and don't worry about the invocations of nehek. Do not try and kill grave gaurd until last. There T4 and d6 models from nehek is powerful. Make sure to kill the mobile units that are high points and only get 1 model per nehek, like wraiths, spirit hosts, the varghulf and blood knights.

Your bone giant, ustabhi, heavy cav, tomb scorpion and skull caatpults can kill the vampire units easily.

Ironically, I think tomb swarms may have found a use as a speed bump now. Use something like this or light calvary to redirect the larger scarier units away from your main army.

Tomb Kings have always been fragile, they require good tactics to win. The vampires did gain some movement and hitting power. But the overall power was spread out more than added on. You have to learn to fight against them differently is all. Vampires became a bit more like chaos, and less like well, vampire counts from last edition. My tomb kings can kill chaos, so why not vampires?

unforgiven555
21-03-2008, 19:10
My bad on the reserach part, but they still have charge range of 22" which is alot for heavy cav like this even though they are subject to frenzy.

That's true. There's no doubt that blood knights are insane, and with a dire wolf screen frenzy isn't really a huge drawback. You've still got Tomb scorpions to help you out though. Alot of TK's strengths are taken away - the SSC isn't so great against VC as their army is pretty much built to withstand shooting - they can raise skellies and don't take panic tests.

The casket really helps you out - if you can set it up correctly. If they're taking necros to get vans, they're casting it less than 50%. It reduces the number of successfully cast invocs by 16%, and makes those that do cast easier to dispel. Even if they do take ghouls, they're still losing 4 a unit if they don't save dice to dispel it - essentially offsetting their invocs. If they do dispel it, they're giving you the ability to force through your incantations of urgency - which is pretty much strictly better than vans.

I really think it's hard to successfully comment on how good an army is before a few games. Your old tactics may not work on the new VC - it's not suprising, they're a radically different army. There have been alot of changes have made in the new book - now there's options for huge customization. It may not be as easy to use tomb scorpions to assassinate their mages (which are now more likely to be vampires than necromancers), and you may be facing different armies each game - but I'd give it time before you call the game hopeless.

EDIT: I wrote this while Najo was writing his post.


Focus on stopping the van hel's and don't worry about the invocations of nehek.
I'm going to have to say the same. If you can position yourself to be winning combat, you're better off. Sure they can raise on average 33 skeletons/ghouls/etc (with corpse carts this can go up to 42) but only if they're not doing anything else. If you take the casket they're raising 25 on average (or 32 when near the cart).

Frankly
21-03-2008, 23:55
- the SSC isn't so great against VC as their army is pretty much built to withstand shooting - they can raise skellies and don't take panic tests.

The casket really helps you out - if you can set it up correctly. If they're taking necros to get vans, they're casting it less than 50%. It reduces the number of successfully cast invocs by 16%, and makes those that do cast easier to dispel. Even if they do take ghouls, they're still losing 4 a unit if they don't save dice to dispel it - essentially offsetting their invocs. If they do dispel it, they're giving you the ability to force through your incantations of urgency - which is pretty much strictly better than vans.



I'm actually thinking 2 SSC would be pretty effective if your getting shots off in your magic phase as well.

If your sitting right back on your battle edge using the full range of your SSC's for 3-4 turns your going to do damage especially to rank and file units.

What this does(if the damage is great enough)is turn the V.C. magic phase defensive, they're then spending more P.Dice on summoning and less dice on aggressive spells.

Add to this the casket and you start slowing down his magic phase, making it easier to target Vanshels with dispel dice and scrolls

I'm really thinking of this tactic in the context of a ranged attack army that keeps out of the way until turn 4(maybe 5 against foot sloggers). Add to the list 2 scorpions and bowmen to target support units and you could weaken the V.C. support base enough for your rank and file to win through static CR.

This is all theory hammer, although I used to play a ranged attack TK list for a while and do now play VC.

Eigilb
22-03-2008, 00:05
I'm actually thinking 2 SSC would be pretty effective if your getting shots off in your magic phase as well.

If your sitting right back on your battle edge using the full range of your SSC's for 3-4 turns your going to do damage especially to rank and file units.

What this does(if the damage is great enough)is turn the V.C. magic phase defensive, they're then spending more P.Dice on summoning and less dice on aggressive spells.

Add to this the casket and you start slowing down his magic phase, making it easier to target Vanshels with dispel dice and scrolls

I'm really thinking of this tactic in the context of a ranged attack army that keeps out of the way until turn 4(maybe 5 against foot sloggers). Add to the list 2 scorpions and bowmen to target support units and you could weaken the V.C. support base enough for your rank and file to win through static CR.

This is all theory hammer, although I used to play a ranged attack TK list for a while and do now play VC.

2 SSC and 1 Casket?

Iīd go with one SSC and the casket. The Casket would really be woth itīs points with the -1 casting rule aganst VC.

unforgiven555
22-03-2008, 01:54
This is all theory hammer, although I used to play a ranged attack TK list for a while and do now play VC.

Turn 4? Ghoulkin puts him 8" from the edge of your deployment zone by the end of his first turn..

Frankly
22-03-2008, 03:30
Sorry? I didn't realise he said the V.C. player was playing with ghoulkin?

Your not sitting at the edge of your deployment zone if your playing with 2 SSC's. Your sitting at your table edge.

Anyhow, ghoulkin still puts the ghoul units just over 8 inches away from your deployment zone(since both player have to start to further than 24" away or is that changed in this E.d.), so thats still out of second turn charges ... if you set up close to your deployment edge for any reason. I really haven't looked at ghoulkin in detail so go crazy if I'm wrong.

Your also going to most likely try to deploy towards a single table edge to draw his units into a funnel and bunch them(better for SSC's). Also extending some of your opponents units movement.

Your thinking that the V.C. player is getting the first movement phase(which to be honest isn't a bad thing to have in mine when constracting a list), or that the ghoulkin extra movement doesn't split his armylist, which against an opponent with a shooty list isn't ideal.

If you get first turn against him your going to march block him aren't you?

After as all that, I think your right Unforgiven, ghoulkin would put you under alot of pressure straight away.

I'm not trying to defend what I've write in my other post, I'm just trying to brain storm a little bit about TK vs VC, so feel free to lay into any thoughts I've posted.

@Eigild, sorry man. As soon as I seen Ungiven's post including the casket(I was like Ohhhhhhhh yeah the casket, nice!) and all proper thought went out the window and I totally forgot able it being a rare choice as well, my bad.

unforgiven555
22-03-2008, 04:06
I'm just trying to brain storm a little bit about TK vs VC, so feel free to lay into any thoughts I've posted.

VC are pretty much built to withstand shooting. You're not going to be effective in entirely cutting down their magic phase, and while their is no doubt in my mind that SSCs are amazing, it's more for their ability to cause panic with a single wound and break up your opponent's battle line. They can do tremendous casualties - but more on the order of 7-16 a turn if each shot twice. I think your advantage lies in the movement phase - your guys are faster.

EDIT: To clarify I mean you have larger charge ranges. Your guys are in no way faster than VC, but they can dictate where battles occur due to their larger charge ranges provided due to magic.

For the most part, his guys are cheaper. Most of his infantry are strictly better than yours on a points/options comparison. In addition he has heavy calvary, which outshine your chariots. Your strengths lie in Ushabi, to which he doesn't really have an equivalent, and the casket of souls. If you can somehow bog down his calvary and then flank charge them, they can be removed through CR.

najo
22-03-2008, 10:11
I think the bone giant would do really well against vampire counts. His armor save, high strength and special rules makes him awesome.

Add to what unforgiven and myself have said, I can see taking a combat focused Tk army (chariots, heavy cav, ustabhi, scorpions, bone giant, casket, skull catapult (to support) and tomb gaurd, along with large blocks of skeletons with shields and hand weapons. Then take a high priest, 2 liche priests and a prince. I bet that army can easily go toe to toe and hold up to vampire counts.

Frankly
23-03-2008, 12:04
Unforgiven555, you've made me itching to play TK again.

Jack of Blades
23-03-2008, 12:19
I think the bone giant would do really well against vampire counts. His armor save, high strength and special rules makes him awesome.

Add to what unforgiven and myself have said, I can see taking a combat focused Tk army (chariots, heavy cav, ustabhi, scorpions, bone giant, casket, skull catapult (to support) and tomb gaurd, along with large blocks of skeletons with shields and hand weapons. Then take a high priest, 2 liche priests and a prince. I bet that army can easily go toe to toe and hold up to vampire counts.

A Bone Giant is indeed, very good against Skeletons. He'll be hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+ and completely negate their save. He could be tied down with a Helm of Commandment on the Skeletons, but do you really want to use it to make a Bone Giant hit on 5+ against Skeletons? probably not. So yeah, good investment.

English 2000
23-03-2008, 22:04
Am I correct in thinking that the bone giant only gets that furious charge extra attacks thingy in the first round of combat?

If that's the case Damn straight I'll "waste" the crown of commandment for one round of combat to neuter the bone giant :)

unforgiven555
24-03-2008, 22:51
Unforgiven555, you've made me itching to play TK again.

Excellent.

I'm pretty much going to have to say ghouls are the way to victory against TK. They do terrible things to almost all of our troops. It's an uphill battle to be sure. I think the casket is essential for success. In general they'll outmaneuver, outnumber us and each of their units is individually stronger than TK. Flanking with Ushabi should deal some damage to blood knights. I think chariots are also a decent option in this matchup. I'm not sure if it's even worth taking the SSC - they'll basically just raise whatever you can possibly hope to take out. I'm guessing the way to success lies in targeting vampires and necromancers with tomb scorpions, and doing the best you can with your magic to ensure fights are at least 2 units to 1 in your favor, you need to cancel their ranks to have a chance.

At the moment, I think winning is possible, but I'm not sure if their is a worse matchup for TK. Maybe khorne mortals, but at least if they lose combat they autobreak.

Note: I realize we've sorta hijacked this thread opposite to its original intent - but really the two sides have similar strategies.
- Vamps are going to raise troops and utilize vans to dictate charges. Vamps have numbers and speed. Vamps are going to get more CR through wounds.
- TK are going to utilize incantation of urgency to dictate charges. TK have charge ranges. TK are really going to need to get significant CR modifiers without counting on wounds from anything aside from ushabi and maybe chariots.

The greatest strength of each army - autobreaking due to fear is sorta nullified. As I see it, whoever successfully dictates the charges they need, and is able to flank and cancel rank bonus, will win.

HellRaid
25-03-2008, 01:55
The most important rule for a VC army fighting TC is that you must always, always save dispel dice for his casket of souls if your opponent has one, especially in games under 2000pts. Everything in the VC army has a pathetically low leadership, and if the casket gets off, say goodbye to Vargulfs, Blood Knights and loner Vampires (on average 2 wounds to the latter two, and 5(!) for the Vargulf).

A Vamp Lord can ward the damage off a bit, but you won't be able to keep the entire army within 12" for the whole game.

And bone giants, too. They're real nasty against VC core choices. My friend's bone giant caused 13 wounds on a 20 man skellie unit with a vampire in one charge. Unit goes pop.