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Goldenwolf
19-03-2008, 03:22
Folks,

(1) When a Unit which fled to the charge of a unit of Black Knights, then gets charged again in the same turn by Vanhel's, would the unit be destroyed? or allowed to roll flee distance again?

(2) Does the Blood Drinker count as a seperate casting of Invocation each wound? ie can it cause 2 wounds and cure 2 Vampire Wounds?

(3) Do the Skull Staff and Staff add +1 to all dispel dice? or just the dice for the bearer? If they apply to all, would those 2 items stack for a +2?

(4) For a Frenzied unit/character, if they can see a unit but have no chance to charge as there is a friendly blocking unit, would they charge and fail? The rules seem to say this, but the GW employee ruled they wouldn't charge as they couldn't get through.

(5) If a Corpse cart with Necromancer joins a unit of Skeletons, does it count as 1 skeleton? or does it help add ranks to the unit? ie if 18 Skeletons are joined by a Corpse cart, does the corpse cart take up 1 space in the front row? or does it take a few spaces, letting more Skellies flesh out the unit?

Thank you in advance for all courteous replies.

DarthBinky
19-03-2008, 03:37
1. It would operate like any other time a unit which is fleeing gets charged- they make a flee move, if they don't go far enough to "beat" the charge movement, they are destroyed. Danse states that the unit charged may react as normal; when a fleeing unit is charged, their reaction is automatically "flee".

2. It says for each wound, so, yes, each is a separate "casting".

3. Neither staff (I assume you're talking about the Skull Staff and the Staff of Sorcery) add any dice. They just add a bonus to the result of the roll(s). Yes, they would stack- just bear in mind that no single model can have more than one Arcane Item (not counting oddball stuff like Dispels Scrolls), so you'd have to have each item on a different wizard. Also bear in mind that Dispel Dice are always communal- they aren't tied to a wizard the same way that Power Dice are.

4. I'll defer this one to more knowledgeable folks. I lean towards what the redshirt says in this instance, but I can't back it up properly.

5. Ah, yes, this one. This sort of question comes up a lot on these boards... poke around a bit and see what the consensus (if any) is.

123DeMaere
19-03-2008, 04:18
1) It flees as a charge reaction

2) yes

3) yes they stack but must be on different wizards

4) Frenzy is really simple... if you can COMPLETE a charge of any enemy unit you must charge. you never declare charges with frenzied units, basically if they are in "Range" they auto-charge.

RANGE MEANS:

1) They only wheel or pivot once in thier move to hit the enemy (in your example, they could not wheel to move besides the unit in front then wheel AGAIN to face the enemy.)

2) They can complete a full move to the unit if it doesn't flee * this something occurs as the unit is say 13 or 14 inches away from the unit "as the crow flies" but the wheel or pivot (which is inculde as part of the charge move) may cause it to fail.*

3) They can not break any logical rules from The rulebook( they can not move though their own unit for example)

BASICALLY when dealing with frenzied units they either can SUCCEED in reaching a enemy (in which case they must) or they can't and you control them as normal, or else they'd just make failed charges all game long.

5) The rulebook clearly states "five models in rank". to get the rank bonus you have to have FIVE models in each rank... because the corse cart would be a chariot base you'd have to have a frontage of 6 models ( Ie.. if you have the corse cart with 18 skellies and 4 models to each side of the corse cart, you'd have the first rank of five, then two ranks of 4 then one of five*which is illegal*) .

Characters, regardless of unit strength or base size, count as one model for ranks and combat res. It will still make the unit better and create space, But if you want the ranks he is only one model.

SuperBeast
19-03-2008, 10:46
This is still up for debate.
In 6th edition, the rules specified "4 models" for a rank, yet the 2003 annual clearly demonstrated that it means "equivalent of 4 R&F models" when adding different sized bases to a unit.
This precedent is continued in the rules for the Grail reliquae, Slann mage priest and Skaven screaming Bell.
As the corpse cart is on a chariot base it will count as being sufficient skeletons wide.
Can't remember off hand, but if it's 50mm wide, then it will count as 2 skeletons in width for rank purposes. If it's 60mm then it will count as 3.

Spirit
19-03-2008, 11:44
Folks,

(1) When a Unit which fled to the charge of a unit of Black Knights, then gets charged again in the same turn by Vanhel's, would the unit be destroyed? or allowed to roll flee distance again?

The unit flees again, if they fail to flee enough to escape for an 8" charge, they die

(2) Does the Blood Drinker count as a separate casting of Invocation each wound? ie can it cause 2 wounds and cure 2 Vampire Wounds?

Separate, 2 wounds is fine.

(3) Do the Skull Staff and Staff add +1 to all dispel dice? or just the dice for the bearer? If they apply to all, would those 2 items stack for a +2?

They stack, and to the poster that said noone can have 2 arcare, manfred can! xD

(4) For a Frenzied unit/character, if they can see a unit but have no chance to charge as there is a friendly blocking unit, would they charge and fail? The rules seem to say this, but the GW employee ruled they wouldn't charge as they couldn't get through.

They would not charge, the have to be eligible to charge to get a frenzied charge.

(5) If a Corpse cart with Necromancer joins a unit of Skeletons, does it count as 1 skeleton? or does it help add ranks to the unit? ie if 18 Skeletons are joined by a Corpse cart, does the corpse cart take up 1 space in the front row? or does it take a few spaces, letting more Skellies flesh out the unit?

Using the GW FAQ that was published, (search for the corpse cart threads, its there) although it was 6th ed, there was no rason to doubt it, the corpse cart will count as US 3 and takes up around 10 slots in the unit, which while not adding 10 to you US, will add 10 to your "ranks" (i.e it will give the unit a larger rank bonus compared to a similar sized unit of skeletons without the cart)

Thank you in advance for all courteous replies.


And superbeast, its 50x100 base size.

T10
19-03-2008, 16:44
Folks,
(1) When a Unit which fled to the charge of a unit of Black Knights, then gets charged again in the same turn by Vanhel's, would the unit be destroyed? or allowed to roll flee distance again?

As pointed out: it makes a Flee charge reaction.

This is because units that are fleeing must make a Flee! charge reaction when charged, and it can indeed flee repeatedly in the same turn.



(2) Does the Blood Drinker count as a seperate casting of Invocation each wound? ie can it cause 2 wounds and cure 2 Vampire Wounds?


Yes. The Blood Drinker restores a single wound. This effect applies for each wound caused.



(3) Do the Skull Staff and Staff add +1 to all dispel dice? or just the dice for the bearer? If they apply to all, would those 2 items stack for a +2?


The Staff of Sorcery and the Skull Staff do indeed stack. This is because even though individual wizards contribute to the dispel, the dispel attempt is not associated with a specific model.



(4) For a Frenzied unit/character, if they can see a unit but have no chance to charge as there is a friendly blocking unit, would they charge and fail? The rules seem to say this, but the GW employee ruled they wouldn't charge as they couldn't get through.


The target unit needs to be in charge reach, which is subtly different from merely being within charge range. Precicely how this is implemented retty much depends on how your local gaimg cirle interprets it.

I would think it reasonable that, knowing which other units will or will not charge, to either disregard or take into consideration the obstructing unit.

If the obstructing unit has declared a charge of his own then we can be reasonably certain that it will move out of the way and provide a clear path for the frenzied unit. Armed with this knowledge we can proceed to determine the charge range of the latter and declare a charge as necessary.



(5) If a Corpse cart with Necromancer joins a unit of Skeletons, does it count as 1 skeleton? or does it help add ranks to the unit? ie if 18 Skeletons are joined by a Corpse cart, does the corpse cart take up 1 space in the front row? or does it take a few spaces, letting more Skellies flesh out the unit?


Strictly speaking, the Corpse Cart is a single model, even if it is to date the model with the largest base size currently able to join a unit.

However, you don't need a frickin' art degree to notice that conforming to the "one-model-wide rank, one-model-wide file" standard of Warhammer regiments produces a fairly ridiculous result.

I suggest counting the Corpse Cart and its 50x100mm base as US 3+1 (for the Necromancer) and have it take up the space of 10 skeletons. Just count it as a single model for rank bonuses and everybody will be happy.

E.g. A unit of 20 skeletons and a corpse cart. Though it seems to create a 5 x6 regiment, there are actually only 21 models in a unit. For the purposes of determining ranks, treat the unit as a regiment of 5 x 4 (+1 straggler).



sk sk sk cc cc
sk sk sk cc cc
sk sk sk cc cc
sk sk sk cc cc
sk sk sk cc cc
sk sk sk sk sk



-T10

Lord Inquisitor
19-03-2008, 16:58
As said before, it's always been the case that for stuff like Slaan mage priests and soforth that you just count the number of ranks in the unit as normal and if he displaces 4 models then that's fine. So stick a corpse cart in a unit and it should displace that number of skeletons, just add up the ranks normally.

You know why? Because any other interpretation would be utterly impossible to deal with in the heat of the battle.

EvC
19-03-2008, 18:22
I think that Q1 is might be open for some lawyerism, because I think the rules say something like you can only flee once per turn from the same unit. Which ignores additional potential charges.

Having said that, I can't really envision any circumstances where a unit of Black Knights might fail a charge on a unit because it flees, yet is still within 8" to charge with Vanhels Danse... (Though it could happen with other spells, particularly TK movement)

Goldenwolf
19-03-2008, 18:53
Thanks Gents for replies.

EvC, Perhaps it is impossible, so that is why the rule would be valid.

So the corpse cart takes up 2x5 Skellie slots, would I then need to make the unit 7 wide to get rank bonuses, or still 5 wide?

Lord Inquisitor
19-03-2008, 20:01
Having said that, I can't really envision any circumstances where a unit of Black Knights might fail a charge on a unit because it flees, yet is still within 8" to charge with Vanhels Danse... (Though it could happen with other spells, particularly TK movement)
While there are now other spells like the Lore of Shadows that Vampires can now get access to, the answer is simpler - the unit can have Vanhel's cast more than once on it...

Although this situation is more likely with a ground-pounding unit.

Spirit
19-03-2008, 23:46
T10, have you seen the faq thats been posted in COUNTLESS threads saying that mounted (i.e big base) units do indeed contribute to the rank bonus? Or must it be found again?

Goldenwolf
20-03-2008, 00:29
Spirit if you have that link, I would like to see it :) Thank You.

EvC
20-03-2008, 00:41
While there are now other spells like the Lore of Shadows that Vampires can now get access to, the answer is simpler - the unit can have Vanhel's cast more than once on it...

Please read rules for Vanhels Danse before commenting on them. You can't move a unit with VHD more than once per magic phase.

Dracosavarian
20-03-2008, 00:48
take a few spaces, letting more Skellies flesh out the unit?
Strictly speaking, the Corpse Cart is a single model, even if it is to date the model with the largest base size currently able to join a unit.

However, you don't need a frickin' art degree to notice that conforming to the "one-model-wide rank, one-model-wide file" standard of Warhammer regiments produces a fairly ridiculous result.

I suggest counting the Corpse Cart and its 50x100mm base as US 3+1 (for the Necromancer) and have it take up the space of 10 skeletons. Just count it as a single model for rank bonuses and everybody will be happy.

E.g. A unit of 20 skeletons and a corpse cart. Though it seems to create a 5 x6 regiment, there are actually only 21 models in a unit. For the purposes of determining ranks, treat the unit as a regiment of 5 x 4 (+1 straggler).



Are you and I playing the same game? Have you placed a Corpse Cart into a Unit? Because by your diagrams, it sure seems you haven't.

A Corpse Cart takes up EXACTLY 10 Models worth of Normal Rank and File model bases. I have played 3 games now with the CC and I always have 10 ghouls to each side of the CC, with the CC in the middle of the unit, and Always, exactly 10 models in width and rank is taken up by the Corpse Cart.


So where are you getting these odd Schematics where it misplaces the rank and file soldiers? Because it doesn't. Also, the CC counts as giving Ranks, its been explained multiple times, as others have gone into. Not US 3+1 for the purposes of Ranks etc. For calculating Unit Strength, sure...I'd go with that logic. But for Ranks? Ehh....

Spirit
20-03-2008, 02:58
Spirit if you have that link, I would like to see it :) Thank You.

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/chronicles/assets/Q&A2003.pdf

God i had to hunt for ages to find that one again.

And i know its 6th ed, but i see no reason for it to have changed.

WLBjork
20-03-2008, 07:40
Most people play that the Corpse Cart occupies the same room as the equivalent number of normal models, it's more convenient. It doesn't detract from the fact that by strict RAW a Corpse Cart is one model in a unit, and T10's old diagram (knocking around somewhere) is strictly correct.


A Corpse Cart takes up EXACTLY 10 Models worth of Normal Rank and File model bases. I have played 3 games now with the CC and I always have 10 ghouls to each side of the CC, with the CC in the middle of the unit, and Always, exactly 10 models in width and rank is taken up by the Corpse Cart.

Nope, the Corpse Cart - being on a 50mm wide base - takes up 2.5 bases of width for Ghouls (also Skeletons and Grave Guard).

Spirit
20-03-2008, 09:34
I don't see how it can be strictly correct with an (albeit outdated) errata that clears it up the easy way, both model wise and fluff wise.

Dracosavarian
31-03-2008, 20:50
Most people play that the Corpse Cart occupies the same room as the equivalent number of normal models, it's more convenient. It doesn't detract from the fact that by strict RAW a Corpse Cart is one model in a unit, and T10's old diagram (knocking around somewhere) is strictly correct.



Nope, the Corpse Cart - being on a 50mm wide base - takes up 2.5 bases of width for Ghouls (also Skeletons and Grave Guard).



Width wise, yes, the corpse cart is a bit wider. However, for the LENGTH of the model, it takes up 5 models in length. It may be a bit wider, but regardless, I do not see how this affects things overall.

WLBjork
01-04-2008, 08:16
I don't see how it can be strictly correct with an (albeit outdated) errata that clears it up the easy way, both model wise and fluff wise.

That Q&A is no longer current.

If you don't know it exists, how can you find it?

Current errata documents are available here (http://uk.games-workshop.com/news/errata/3/).

None of them deal with the bigger-bases-than-the-rest-of-the-unit problem.

EvC
01-04-2008, 11:20
It might be possible Enemy in the Way. Black knights charge. Unit A flees through unit B. Black knights charge Unit B. Unit B flees but not enough to get out of range. Black knights move their full move through unit B. Unit A is now <8" away.

Right? or wrong?

Heh, good thinking. Hope it didn't take long to come up with it :)

WillFightForFood
01-04-2008, 14:20
Deleted post.