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Pooky
19-03-2008, 12:53
I was stuck in traffic today and I thought of the following :)

If The Emperor was/ is real, why does he not give gifts to his loyal subjects?

In saying that, I can see there will be a big debate that "if you are trully loyal then that is gift enough to serve the Emperor" and that "the Chaos are just using people for their own ends so aren't really giving you anything". But is that really so? Shouldn't the Emperor give out gifts? Sometimes it's just not enough to be loyal, one needs some help sometimes...

arch_inquisitor
19-03-2008, 13:22
Well for one the Emperor is not a god just a very potent psyker so he probably couldn't grant gifts.
Second even if he could use his psyker powers to grant some sort of gift or power to his followers he wouldn't be able to as all of his focus is on the astronomicon.

Hope that answers the question for you

Hellebore
19-03-2008, 13:27
I would say the sisters of battle and various other truly pious individuals like Sebastian Thor HAVE received gifts from the Emperor.

Hellebore

Caelnaethon
19-03-2008, 13:30
It depends what you mean by the Emperor being "real." It seems fairly certain that the Emperor of Mankind existed, there's just some uncertainty about what he was.

The official line of the Ministorum is that the Emperor is God, the will of the cosmos and the ruler of all of being. By this theory, if an Imperial army wins a battle, that's a gift from the Emperor - they only won because he wanted them to. If they lose, that's obviously a punishment for the commander's impiety.

The Thorian theory is that the Emperor does empower certain exceptional individuals by creating the living saints. It's a little vague, though, as to why these gifts are seemingly never conferred on Inquisitors, Space Marines and other already-powerful heroes.

Then there's the Star Child theory which holds that the Emperor isn't a god yet. Until his physical body dies and he ascends to divinity, he's in no position to go handing out gifts of any sort.

And finally, there's what one might call the Imperial Truth theory, which suggests that the Emperor wasn't lying when he claimed to be just another human. He can't hand out gifts for the same reason Eldrad Ulthran or Tigurius can't; he just isn't/wasn't that powerful.

Baaltharus
19-03-2008, 13:32
I'm afraid your incorrect arch_inquisitor, the Emperor is effectively a God the same way the powers of Chaos are Gods. The Emperors guidance tends to be more subtle than the gifts of the chaos powers, guiding specific moments in time, random events which see certain individuals live when they should really have died. Of course there are more obvious examples in the forms of the saints whos powers differ from healing otherwise untreatable injuries to destroying greater daemons with a broken lightbulb.

arch_inquisitor
19-03-2008, 14:00
Well actually fluff often paints him as a living corpse in a chair that sustains him only by the sacrifice of thousands of psykers daily. His mind is still active and he is the only reason the imperium exists as he maintains the beacon (astronomicon) by which all warp travel is possible.

While there are many anecdotal stories of faith gifts the only ones that see this as proof of the Emperor's divinity are the Imperium.

Many of these faith events could just as easily be discounted as psychic phenomena. And as these events are taken at face value "the Emporer did it".

I just don't see any solid proof in any of the fluff. Don't get me wrong I'm a loyalist but like the marines I think for now he is but a man, an immortal man with vast psychic powers, but a man none the less. Now if they would just let him outta that damn chair so he could ascend then he could be a god.

GW is never gonna give a solid answer to this so I guess your version is just as valid as mine.

Shortseer
19-03-2008, 16:22
Back in the Realms of Chaos books (REALLY old, i know) when 40k was more of an rpg, your characters could recieve gifts from the emperor, but it was only Sensei if i recall, and the gifts were along the lines of +X I, S, etc.

And, as afew have pointed out, Sisters of Battle exist upon gifts from the big E. 3+ invs and ap1 bolters are truly gifts from above :)

Wolf Scout Ewan
19-03-2008, 16:50
Becoming a living Saint would be a pretty cool gift from HOE.

Galatan
19-03-2008, 17:08
Well for starters...I don't think the Emperor is the kinda guy that gives mutations and stuff as 'gifts'.

Apart from that, I would say that it isn't really certain what the Emperor is. The more generic background says he is a very powerful psyker, but older background states that he is also so much more.

As a small bit of proof that the Emperor is more than a psyker: He has been around for a very very long time. Some pieces even say since the dawn of humanity. No normal psyker is able to do that, no matter how powerful, they always suffer from aging in the end (unless you're a chaos worshiper of course).

The Emperors gifts has always been more subtle. And IMO that is also a far better strategy to find out who truly believes in you, unlike the chaos Gods who have to prove every second of every day that they are godlike.

Cheers

ryng_sting
19-03-2008, 18:12
The background states the Emperor's soul has passed into the warp, but the link between his soul and body remains strong, and is sustained via the Golden Throne. Upon his 'ascension', the Emperor indeed became a minor warp-presence, or 'god', fuelled by the beliefs and expectations of those who worship him and by the concepts and emotions he promotes. (The righteous power to smite evil, human sovereignity and fraternity, self-governance in the face of Chaos, etc.)

veyure
19-03-2008, 19:32
It depends what you mean by the Emperor being "real." It seems fairly certain that the Emperor of Mankind existed, there's just some uncertainty about what he was.

I don't know if there is any truth to this, but a friend of mine suggested that the Emperor may in fact be one of the "Old Ones". The same ones that created the eldar and necrons and such.

Captain Stern
19-03-2008, 19:38
Well actually fluff often paints him as a living corpse in a chair that sustains him only by the sacrifice of thousands of psykers daily. His mind is still active and he is the only reason the imperium exists as he maintains the beacon (astronomicon) by which all warp travel is possible.

While there are many anecdotal stories of faith gifts the only ones that see this as proof of the Emperor's divinity are the Imperium.

Many of these faith events could just as easily be discounted as psychic phenomena. And as these events are taken at face value "the Emporer did it".

I just don't see any solid proof in any of the fluff. Don't get me wrong I'm a loyalist but like the marines I think for now he is but a man, an immortal man with vast psychic powers, but a man none the less. Now if they would just let him outta that damn chair so he could ascend then he could be a god.

GW is never gonna give a solid answer to this so I guess your version is just as valid as mine.

Actually you really are wrong. Like Shortseer said, back in Realms of Chaos the Emperor, in the form of the Star Child, granted gifts to Sensei much as the Chaos powers grant gifts to their champions. The Star Child even had Daemon Princes in the form of Sensei Masters.

Super Ninja
19-03-2008, 20:14
In one of the Gaunts Ghosts novels (Im not sure witch, cant remember), there is a partialy insane sniper named Mad eye Larkin who was sent on a mission to asassinate a powerful Chaos cult leader. If he failed, the leader would be able to call in reinforcments to aid his troops in securing the planet he was fighting on. The Imperial forces there would not have been able to push these reinforcments back and would have lost the planet to Chaos. If this happened, then the rest of the sector would fall. Big deal right? Anyway, Larkin's sniper roost was realy far away from where his target was, in a ruined basilica. He would neet a perfect shot to kill his target or the sector would be overrun and he only had one try (alot of pressure for one guy huh?). As he was awaiting his chance to kill the Cult leader, a stone statue of an angel came alive, said some motivational words to him, tore of a piece of its glowing white robe and wraped a piece around the barel of his rifle, and went back to normal. Finaly, without aiming or taking his time to sight his gun, he took one shot and blasted the Cult Leader in the head. Now remember, Larkin was insane, but still sane enough to know it, so he dissmised the angel statue as a figment of his insanity. But when he returned to base, his comrades noticed the shining, too-clean robe scrap wraped around his gun and asked him how he got it...

From this, it is obvious that the Emperor intervened in the situation because of it's magnaude and the consequences if Larkin failed. Citing this this and several other instanses, it seems to me that the Emperor does "gift" his followers, but not with physical or psycic augmentations. Intead, he helps them achieve very important objectives or win etremely important battles because if they failed it would spell disaster for the Imperium.

TheBigBadWolf
19-03-2008, 20:26
I don't know if there is any truth to this, but a friend of mine suggested that the Emperor may in fact be one of the "Old Ones". The same ones that created the eldar and necrons and such.

he definatley aint an old one, he was born 7000bc when a group of shamans sacrificed themselves and formed the man who would become emperor IIRC

Xollob
19-03-2008, 20:29
possibly the emperor is trying to gain enough mana, through faith and cheesiness to become a god, and be in a postition to give our party favours, and no doubnt rules for these will be detailed in the 6th edition rule book or something

Firaxin
19-03-2008, 20:30
Yeah, I was gonna say, there are a whole ton of 'gifts' granted by the Emperor in the Gaunt's Ghosts series, they just aren't permanent, physical gifts. Especially when Sabbatine starts to figure into the storyline later on.

Also, one of the space marine traits grants them a 6+ invulnerable save for believing in the Emperor. Reminds you of a certain gift from a certain chaos god, no?

You could even say being born a psyker/pariah is a gift from the emperor, if you're desperate. The idea being that psychic visions of the future/what you should do are sent directly from the emperor.

EDIT: omg, lol, mana.
Btw, Super Ninja, IIRC, the situation was more dire than you make it out to be, because Larkin was having one of his fits and couldn't make the shot because he was spasming on the floor, until the angel came to him.

Imperialis_Dominatus
19-03-2008, 21:33
If The Emperor was/ is real, why does he not give gifts to his loyal subjects?

Actually had a few threads about this in the past (one started by me), and my army concept is based around it. My Space Marine Chapter believes that the Emperor blesses them with gifts (wings and halos and glowing eyes) and angelic servants (which are probably actually Daemons). I kept it vague though, it could all be Tzeentch's work.

My personal belief is that the Emperor does work wonders amongst humanity, examples like Living Saints, Sensei, various miracles and inspirations, the Emperor's Tarot, Acts of Faith, visions, the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath (during the Reign of Blood), etc.

His 'gifts' are more subtle than those of the Chaos Gods (except Living Saints, there's only so subtle you can be in that state). But they're there.

However, these gifts are often taken to be psychic phenomena and coincidences.


he definatley aint an old one, he was born 7000bc when a group of shamans sacrificed themselves and formed the man who would become emperor IIRC

Sounds about right. I believe it was 8000 b.c. though. ;) He ain't no filthy xeno Old One though, as you said.

Gussy
19-03-2008, 21:42
What about in the "Galaxy in Flames" when the remembrancers where able to escape to Garro's ship because they had "guidance"? The emperor was alive at that time.

Caelnaethon
19-03-2008, 22:28
Sounds about right. I believe it was 8000 b.c. though. ;) He ain't no filthy xeno Old One though, as you said.
I've heard this a lot, but it doesn't seem to have been printed anywhere in an official publication for many years. It's always seemed very odd to me; if humanity has been guided since the dawn of civilisation by a supernatural being who's posed as all their greatest scientists, thinkers and visionaries, what have they every actually done for themselves?


Also, one of the space marine traits grants them a 6+ invulnerable save for believing in the Emperor. Reminds you of a certain gift from a certain chaos god, no?
Interestingly, in Codex: Armageddon where I believe this first appeared, the description says that the save represents the Marines ignoring severe wounds in their faith and zeal. The Emperor doesn't protect, he inspires.

Captain Stern
19-03-2008, 22:35
What about in the "Galaxy in Flames" when the remembrancers where able to escape to Garro's ship because they had "guidance"? The emperor was alive at that time.

Isn't that the same book where the rememberancers and the 'saint' discover that the true way/message of the Emperor was peace and that all war was wrong (I paraphrase)? :rolleyes:

Imperialis_Dominatus
19-03-2008, 22:52
I've heard this a lot, but it doesn't seem to have been printed anywhere in an official publication for many years.

Yeah, but it hasn't been overwritten.


It's always seemed very odd to me; if humanity has been guided since the dawn of civilisation by a supernatural being who's posed as all their greatest scientists, thinkers and visionaries, what have they every actually done for themselves?

Nuthin'. :p

Super Ninja
20-03-2008, 11:06
Btw, Super Ninja, IIRC, the situation was more dire than you make it out to be, because Larkin was having one of his fits and couldn't make the shot because he was spasming on the floor, until the angel came to him.

Well there you go! it was an etrememly desperate situation with many, many imperial lives hanging in the balance and the Emperor got involved to help save them. Thx for backing me up and correcting me.

Chem-Dog
20-03-2008, 12:16
Look no further than the Adeptus Sororitas' Acts of Faith ;)

Aeolian
20-03-2008, 13:25
It would be very ironic if when the Emperor became a minor warp entity when he ascended the Golden Throne and people starting worshipping 'The Emperor' the cult actually created a new warp entity, due to the Emperor's non-divinity and such.

Caelnaethon
20-03-2008, 16:44
Nuthin'. :p
Exactly.:D I'd say that I feel the story works better without that particular detail, but what do I care, I play Eldar.

Chaplain Dionitas
20-03-2008, 19:39
I'm sure the Emperor has sent out the occasional gift basket or nice floral arrangement

Pooky
20-03-2008, 23:25
I'm sure the Emperor has sent out the occasional gift basket or nice floral arrangement

:eyebrows:

Firaxin
20-03-2008, 23:28
I feel like there were people like Newton or Einstein etc who the Emperor must of impersonated, but I believe there are thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of other pseudo-important people who the Emperor did not impersonate, such as Darwin or Patton.

Archangel_Ruined
21-03-2008, 00:16
Erm... Just to clarify, you don't really mean 'was/is'?

Brother Siccarius
21-03-2008, 00:40
Well actually fluff often paints him as a living corpse in a chair that sustains him only by the sacrifice of thousands of psykers daily. His mind is still active and he is the only reason the imperium exists as he maintains the beacon (astronomicon) by which all warp travel is possible.
He doesn't maintain the beacon at all, and he never has. In the Fluff the only connection the Emperor has had to the Astronomicon is by "guiding it", it's, since about 2nd ed at least, created by the Psychic choir on Terra.

The HH novels even cast some doubt as to whether the Astronomicon even needs to be directed, as they navigate by the Psychic Choir alone quite well pre-heresy.

Heck I even doubt the "corpse" part considering the furthered background to the pre-heresy events. Considering that Malcador was killed on the Golden Throne by replacing the Emperor for even the briefest time, and that it seemingly can't be powered by a corpse, the Emperor has to still be alive otherwise we'd have had demons and raw warp stuff flooding terra.


While there are many anecdotal stories of faith gifts the only ones that see this as proof of the Emperor's divinity are the Imperium.

Because such gifts usually end with any non-imperial on the field being dead. Kinda simplifies things when the only ones to witness it were the believers themselves.


Many of these faith events could just as easily be discounted as psychic phenomena. And as these events are taken at face value "the Emporer did it".
Which is interesting considering that no psyker has yet contradicted the idea, and that any gift of the emperor would be psychic phenomina considering that that's what gifts are (anything warp based is psychic in nature if not in practice).


I just don't see any solid proof in any of the fluff. Don't get me wrong I'm a loyalist but like the marines I think for now he is but a man, an immortal man with vast psychic powers, but a man none the less. Now if they would just let him outta that damn chair so he could ascend then he could be a god.

Yes, exactly! He was a man, but he's now a man who has untold numbers (trillions doesn't even get close to it) believing that he's divine, the same numbers which are the main food source for the chaos gods as well (or so the fluff directs us to believe). So if the same number who's fear provides the main sustenance for chaos provides the worship of the emperor, imagine what kind of psychic being that creates in the warp. Which is the basis behind the entire Star Child theory.


Now, as to the original question, why does the Emperor not give gifts like the chaos gods do. I believe it comes back down to the standard "good god/evil god" outlook.

The evil deeds are the easy roads, the straight access to power. The actions that take you so fast to power you don't learn anything from it and you use it unwisely, unjustly, or unlawfully. You treat your lessers poorly as you despise them for not taking the same straight shot for power, and thus being weak, or because you don't remember what it was to be one of the lessers, the stance of the privileged.

The good actions are generally the slow roads, where you work your way up the power chain and learn how to use power you get. At which point you're granted that power. At the end you're wiser, juster, and more compassionate to your lessors as you know what it was to be one.

The Emperor would know that once you give a lot of power to someone at once, you can't take it back. The Horus Heresy taught that lesson well, as did the later 20 millenia of war and bloodshed. So the slow road is the one to take, you give the power to one who consistently strives for the top, and the gifts aren't usually the overwhelming gifts of chaos. Small things like a very narrow miss, a lucky shot, or a lucky break would be the gifts of the emperor, something small. Though there are, on occassion, times when the faithful of the Emperor are vastly outnumbered and it would take a significant individual to turn the tide, which is where you get living saints, and people like Sebastian Thor.

I'm also pretty sure that having the souls of a hundred sacrificed psykers blasted through your rear every day for 10k years would have some effect on your psychic pressence, not to mention sitting on a broken warp portal all those days.

Pooky
21-03-2008, 02:33
Erm... Just to clarify, you don't really mean 'was/is'?

Ahhh, I did forget to clarify that...

I say "was" real because according to some fluff the Emperor died and is now on the Golden Throne, i.e. he WAS mortal. I also say "is" real because some fluff says that The Emperor exists but is now just a psychic entity, i.e. he IS a "spirit".

Johnnyfrej
21-03-2008, 04:08
"The Emperor Protects."

That simple phrase keeps billions of Imperial Guardsmen boarding kilometer-long starships to worlds lightyears away from their homes to die against some enemy they have never even heard of before, sounds like a good enough gift from His most holy self for me to think He is watching over His Imperium. :D

-Private Jon

Hellebore
21-03-2008, 04:49
His 'gifts' are more subtle than those of the Chaos Gods (except Living Saints, there's only so subtle you can be in that state). But they're there.

However, these gifts are often taken to be psychic phenomena and coincidences.



My reasoning for this is simply that the Emperor is not as strong as the chaos gods. He has not been around for nearly as long, and is not formed of the 'base' emotions that humanity pumps out.

Thus he cannot produce the sort of raw energy you see in greater daemons and chaos gifts.

Hellebore

Imperialis_Dominatus
21-03-2008, 06:31
:eyebrows:

This message not supported by the ten character rule. :p

Iracundus
21-03-2008, 09:21
My reasoning for this is simply that the Emperor is not as strong as the chaos gods. He has not been around for nearly as long, and is not formed of the 'base' emotions that humanity pumps out.

The Emperor predates the Big Four as detailed in Realms of Chaos and in fact spent his early years trying to prevent them from gaining power...unsuccessfully.

Now as mummified body on Throne, and/or Star Child, he is in a disadvantaged situation compared to the Big Four. The Star Child is described as existing because the Big Four cannot pinpoint it in the depths of the warp.

The Star Child's "champions" appear to consist of the Sensei only who are obviously a limited and dwindling pool of possible recruits (as the Emperor isn't going around having any more kids). By comparison, the Big Four seem to accept anyone who succeeds in attracing their attention.

From such diminished resources, the Star Child/Emperor, I agree, probably has to be more subtle with nudging events here and there, not only to avoid detection but to avoid spending too much of its lesser pool of energy.

arch_inquisitor
21-03-2008, 09:29
Wow people are still debating with me even though I've stated their versions just as valid as my own.

I'm just saying that there is no solid fluff, even in the novels they leave the question of miracles rather vague. I've read quite a few refrence books and novels and they seem to like to leave the question open ended.

And yes I was wrong on specific points (I re-read some stuff) but nothing states clearly that he is a full warp entity. And by this realities definition of gods he would need to be a complete warp entity to be one.

Though I've done a terrible job of expressing it, I more fall into the category of him not being a god yet but will be one day.

As for the OP, he does grant gifts, the soul binding being an example. But that just makes him more than a man not a god.

Hellebore
21-03-2008, 11:57
The Emperor predates the Big Four as detailed in Realms of Chaos and in fact spent his early years trying to prevent them from gaining power...unsuccessfully.

Now as mummified body on Throne, and/or Star Child, he is in a disadvantaged situation compared to the Big Four. The Star Child is described as existing because the Big Four cannot pinpoint it in the depths of the warp.

The Star Child's "champions" appear to consist of the Sensei only who are obviously a limited and dwindling pool of possible recruits (as the Emperor isn't going around having any more kids). By comparison, the Big Four seem to accept anyone who succeeds in attracing their attention.

From such diminished resources, the Star Child/Emperor, I agree, probably has to be more subtle with nudging events here and there, not only to avoid detection but to avoid spending too much of its lesser pool of energy.

So you are saying that Rage, Hope, Despair and Lust did not exist before the birth of the Emperor? That humanity somehow only developed these emotions after his birth?


Apart from the information in the Necron codex negating that argument, it doesn't make any sense. Khorne in his present incarnation may not have existed, but there damn well was a chaos god of rage and hate around then.

Besides, what does that have to do with their power? The Emperor has only been worshipped and fueled by humanity for the last 10,000 years, whilst the current incarnations of chaos have been around for 4x that length of time. Before that he was a gestalt formed fom thousands of human psyker souls. That in no way makes him a god. Only his subsequent deification and worship and the formation of the Star Child did that.

Or are the eldar craftworld infinity circuits all eldar emperors too considering they are the same thing.


So, we know that the warp was full of emotions and souls since at least the necron war, but the modern chaos gods didn't exist until the middle ages. Warp entities still existed but not in this modern form.

The emperor was formed from a soul gestalt of HUMAN psykers, not known for their superpowers. He was not worshipped and was never a god in any form until the 31st Millennium.

So I don't see any reason why he would suddenly be more powerful than gods with power that spans back 60 million years and an image that spans almost 40,000.

Hellebore

DantesInferno
21-03-2008, 12:02
So you are saying that Rage, Hope, Despair and Lust did not exist before the birth of the Emperor? That humanity somehow only developed these emotions after his birth?


Apart from the information in the Necron codex negating that argument, it doesn't make any sense. Khorne in his present incarnation may not have existed, but there damn well was a chaos god of rage and hate around then.

Besides, what does that have to do with their power? The Emperor has only been worshipped and fueled by humanity for the last 10,000 years, whilst the current incarnations of chaos have been around for 4x that length of time. Before that he was a gestalt formed fom thousands of human psyker souls. That in no way makes him a god. Only his subsequent deification and worship and the formation of the Star Child did that.

Or are the eldar craftworld infinity circuits all eldar emperors too considering they are the same thing.


So, we know that the warp was full of emotions and souls since at least the necron war, but the modern chaos gods didn't exist until the middle ages. Warp entities still existed but not in this modern form.

The emperor was formed from a soul gestalt of HUMAN psykers, not known for their superpowers. He was not worshipped and was never a god in any form until the 31st Millennium.

So I don't see any reason why he would suddenly be more powerful than gods with power that spans back 60 million years and an image that spans almost 40,000.

Hellebore

Not to mention the recent 4.0 Chaos Codex, which firmly falls down on the side of the Chaos Gods existing since the emergence of mortal life.....

Captain Stern
21-03-2008, 17:07
Come off it all you naysayers, the HH novels (and Eisenhorn) are making it crystal clear that the Emperor confers various benefits on his followers simply by their belief in him. This is demonstrated by daemons getting banished by invoking the Emperor's name, that 'saint' character being 'guided' and so on. I personally hate it. In 40k The Imperial Creed was always just a symptom (a pretty big one) of the brutal way of life living in the Imperium. Now this new crop of GW writers are changing it into this fashionable 'if you believe it then it's true' hogwash. It used to be that the only way to hurt/ banish daemons was through psychic means. The only real reason daemons were a problem was because of psykers. The Emperor was already a god and when he was umm... 'crippled' he was weakened and became a warp entity called the Star Child. There was absolutely no real relationship between the Emperor/SChild and the Imperial Faith. All pretty cool and balanced I thought, but they couldn't leave it alone.

Brother Siccarius
21-03-2008, 20:35
Not to mention the recent 4.0 Chaos Codex, which firmly falls down on the side of the Chaos Gods existing since the emergence of mortal life.....

That in itself is pretty much defeated by the rest of the fluff. The Chaos Gods weren't there when the Old Ones or Necrotyr were fighting, since the warp was stable at that time. Hence the Webway being free of chaos since it was made at the time. The Necrotyr itself also being entirely mortal (Even somewhat overly so).

The Chaos Gods didn't become ascendant until after the Enslaver Plague had ravaged the psychic races. When they and their demons came around, they became the dominant threat in the warp. Considering that at the time Humanity was already around in one form or another, as were the orks, and many of the other minor races. It pretty well defeats the "They were here since everyone else was" standpoint.

----------

The Emperor granting gifts during the beginning of the Heresy may just be a symptom of the Lecto Divinicus being circulated as widely as it was. When you follow a path of faith, things happen as we see with the dark gods (You don't even need to be part of a ritual or have their favor to have mutations and powers from them), and when a large portion of humanity believes in something, you get things like the Emperor's warp shadow. No one really says that it's the Emperor himself, but it's a warp entity that's taken on the religious aspects of him.

The Emperor's religious aspects and gifts are really left open for some interpretation, but they give hints and nudges that it was some entity's guidance, and not random chance. In the end, it's left up to belief, and sometimes that's all the proof you need.

DantesInferno
21-03-2008, 22:29
That in itself is pretty much defeated by the rest of the fluff. The Chaos Gods weren't there when the Old Ones or Necrotyr were fighting, since the warp was stable at that time. Hence the Webway being free of chaos since it was made at the time. The Necrotyr itself also being entirely mortal (Even somewhat overly so).

The Chaos Gods didn't become ascendant until after the Enslaver Plague had ravaged the psychic races. When they and their demons came around, they became the dominant threat in the warp. Considering that at the time Humanity was already around in one form or another, as were the orks, and many of the other minor races. It pretty well defeats the "They were here since everyone else was" standpoint.

I'm afraid I don't see the contradiction, to be perfectly honest. Sure, the Chaos Gods may not have been the powerful entities we now know until after the Enslaver Plague, but that doesn't mean they weren't around in a more rudimentary form beforehand.


Come off it all you naysayers, the HH novels (and Eisenhorn) are making it crystal clear that the Emperor confers various benefits on his followers simply by their belief in him. This is demonstrated by daemons getting banished by invoking the Emperor's name, that 'saint' character being 'guided' and so on. I personally hate it. In 40k The Imperial Creed was always just a symptom (a pretty big one) of the brutal way of life living in the Imperium. Now this new crop of GW writers are changing it into this fashionable 'if you believe it then it's true' hogwash. It used to be that the only way to hurt/ banish daemons was through psychic means. The only real reason daemons were a problem was because of psykers. The Emperor was already a god and when he was umm... 'crippled' he was weakened and became a warp entity called the Star Child. There was absolutely no real relationship between the Emperor/SChild and the Imperial Faith. All pretty cool and balanced I thought, but they couldn't leave it alone.

Seems like you're giving up your interpretation far too easily. In fact, they seem totally compatible to me.

If a daemon is banished by a human invoking the Emperor's name, who's to say that the strength of the human's belief isn't causing them to unconsciously access their latent psychic powers? Just because the Emperor's name is being invoked, it doesn't mean that he's got anything to do with the results.

Captain Stern
21-03-2008, 23:05
Seems like you're giving up your interpretation far too easily. In fact, they seem totally compatible to me.

If a daemon is banished by a human invoking the Emperor's name, who's to say that the strength of the human's belief isn't causing them to unconsciously access their latent psychic powers? Just because the Emperor's name is being invoked, it doesn't mean that he's got anything to do with the results.

I'm not given to grasping at straws.

Imperialis_Dominatus
21-03-2008, 23:06
I don't think that explanation quite reaches the level of grasping at straws, but whatever rolls your wheel, Stern. :p

Captain Stern
21-03-2008, 23:13
I don't think that explanation quite reaches the level of grasping at straws,

grasping at straws
1. trying to find reasons to feel hopeful about a bad situation.
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/grasping+at+straws

Sounds spot on to me!

DantesInferno
21-03-2008, 23:36
I'm not given to grasping at straws.

So what, in particular, do you find implausible about my suggestion?

I'll reiterate: just because an agent invokes the Emperor's name, it doesn't mean the Emperor himself causes what follows.

Captain Stern
21-03-2008, 23:45
That for it to make sense all humans (or at least the ones who were at the right places at the right times) are now latent psychics. That would be yet another gargantuan change to the background. Besides, it's clearly not where this lectio divinatus/ Emperor seeking godhood through humanity's belief in him stuff is headed.

DantesInferno
22-03-2008, 00:02
That for it to make sense all humans (or at least the ones who were at the right places at the right times) are now latent psychics. That would be yet another gargantuan change to the background.

I think you've got things the wrong way around.

Think of the millions of humans who fervently believe in the Emperor, and invoke the Emperor's name as a Daemon approaches. In the vast majority of cases, the Daemon isn't banished, and goes on to kill the poor individual.

Not all humans have to be latent psykers for the theory to hold. Indeed, not all of the humans who are in the right place at the right time have to be latent psykers. It's the fact that these individuals are latent psykers which means that we're talking about them being in the right place at the right time. If these "saints" weren't latent psykers, they'd just be another unremarkable daemon victim, and we wouldn't be talking about them.

Imperialis_Dominatus
22-03-2008, 05:01
grasping at straws
1. trying to find reasons to feel hopeful about a bad situation.
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/grasping+at+straws

Sounds spot on to me!

Well, in my opinion this discussion seems more along the lines of 'trying to explain fluff situations' than 'feeling hopeful' about anything. Fluff supports that using the Emperor's name can banish daemons. This seems at odds with his standing in the background. Ergo, there must be a reason that the Emperor's name is effective against daemons that may or may not have anything to do with him being a god. Dante came up with such a possibility.

Coming up with explanations doesn't seem to fall under being overly hopeful.

Chaplain of Chaos
22-03-2008, 05:48
The real question is... who is the current incarnation of the Emperor...

Maybe... the Emperor is one of those scientists working on the Large Hadron Collider.

kryptt
22-03-2008, 06:30
The real question is... who is the current incarnation of the Emperor...

Maybe... the Emperor is one of those scientists working on the Large Hadron Collider.

What's the Hadron Collider?

Brother Siccarius
22-03-2008, 09:47
Seems like you're giving up your interpretation far too easily. In fact, they seem totally compatible to me.

If a daemon is banished by a human invoking the Emperor's name, who's to say that the strength of the human's belief isn't causing them to unconsciously access their latent psychic powers? Just because the Emperor's name is being invoked, it doesn't mean that he's got anything to do with the results.

Just because a Demon is summoned by calling on the name of the chaos god doesn't mean it's the chaos god exists, it could just be the person manifesting unforseen psychic powers in a way corresponding to the chaos god. To reverse it a bit.

If human fear can feed the chaos gods, why can't human belief feed a new entity?


What's the Hadron Collider?
The Large Hadron Collider is a very real Supercollider that has a "risk" of destroying all life on the planet by accidentally creating micro black holes or strange matter.

Then again you reading this has a risk of destroying all like as we know it, it's just not very likely.

heretics bane
22-03-2008, 22:01
My reasoning for this is simply that the Emperor is not as strong as the chaos gods. He has not been around for nearly as long, and is not formed of the 'base' emotions that humanity pumps out.

Thus he cannot produce the sort of raw energy you see in greater daemons and chaos gifts.

Hellebore

I agree, he is a minor warp entitieand so couldnt really try to foil the chaos gods ettc. as easily as they themselves do,so he works through coincidences and being at the right place at the right time etc.

And when he has enough "mojo he creates a living saint

Lionsbane
23-03-2008, 02:33
've heard this a lot, but it doesn't seem to have been printed anywhere in an official publication for many years. It's always seemed very odd to me; if humanity has been guided since the dawn of civilisation by a supernatural being who's posed as all their greatest scientists, thinkers and visionaries, what have they every actually done for themselves?

But perhaps if the Emperor had done things differently humanity would have been erradicated long since. Perhaps his grand plan was working to the best possible outcome right up until Horus betrayed him.

DantesInferno
23-03-2008, 02:51
Just because a Demon is summoned by calling on the name of the chaos god doesn't mean it's the chaos god exists, it could just be the person manifesting unforseen psychic powers in a way corresponding to the chaos god. To reverse it a bit.

Probably not a bad way of thinking about it. Talking about gods' "gifts" is at best a gross oversimplification for what must be a highly complex interplay between individual warp signatures and the vast vortices of swirling warp energy which constitute what we know as warp gods. It's not as simple as "Khorne does X".


If human fear can feed the chaos gods, why can't human belief feed a new entity?

Sure. Though it is important to remember that the Chaos Gods only reached rudimentary sentience after millions (even billions, according to the most recent Chaos Codex) of years of accumulation of the warp essences of mortals. The Emperor-as-belief has only been around for the last 9500 years or so.

Brother Siccarius
23-03-2008, 03:19
Probably not a bad way of thinking about it. Talking about gods' "gifts" is at best a gross oversimplification for what must be a highly complex interplay between individual warp signatures and the vast vortices of swirling warp energy which constitute what we know as warp gods. It's not as simple as "Khorne does X".


I'm starting to move towards your side a bit more now....damn it:(

I've always had the idea that, rather than the gods taking an active presence with humanity, using the god's name or rituals connects the user to that part of the warp rather than some Dues Ex response from the god directly.
Which itself is supported by the stance of the fluff guru that the chaos god's don't even pay attention to their champions, making it more than unusual for every mutation to be a direct influence from the Chaos God.

Iracundus
23-03-2008, 07:28
Except there is canonical evidence the Chaos gods do pay attention to their Champions. The final ascension of a Champion to daemonhood is precipitated by this attention and decision on the part of the god, hence why this decision point was termed "Eye of God" in the Realms of Chaos. We also have evidence of Tzeentch paying attention to the whole Rubric situation, going so far as to speak directly to Magnus to stop him from destroying Ahriman. The description of daemon worlds and their battles in the Realms of Chaos and the 2nd ed. Chaos Codex also makes explicit mention of how the Chaos gods can deliberately set out elaborate conditions (sometimes seemingly nonsensical) for the battle, and act like rich old men gambling over small change.

Brother Siccarius
23-03-2008, 09:19
Except there is canonical evidence the Chaos gods do pay attention to their Champions. The final ascension of a Champion to daemonhood is precipitated by this attention and decision on the part of the god, hence why this decision point was termed "Eye of God" in the Realms of Chaos. We also have evidence of Tzeentch paying attention to the whole Rubric situation, going so far as to speak directly to Magnus to stop him from destroying Ahriman. The description of daemon worlds and their battles in the Realms of Chaos and the 2nd ed. Chaos Codex also makes explicit mention of how the Chaos gods can deliberately set out elaborate conditions (sometimes seemingly nonsensical) for the battle, and act like rich old men gambling over small change.
Quite a bit of that is from older sources, but, of course, you have your evidence and I have mine:


They barely even notice mortals, nevermind take a personal interest in them. Some, like Archaon, might be prominent and destructive enough to gain their attention momentarily, but it's bit like a human following a particular ant across the patio, then when it disappears they give it no more thought. We don't care about the ant, what it's been up to, where it's future lies, and Chaos Gods feel the same about mortals even when they become aware of them.

Which is echoed back to their 40k counterparts. Just replace Archaon with Abbadon. This was during a discussion on why the particular chosen of the gods didn't get spawnified after his defeat, which again, echoes his 40k counterpart (Though he did win his latest crusade, there were 11 less effective ones before that).

DantesInferno
23-03-2008, 10:20
I've always had the idea that, rather than the gods taking an active presence with humanity, using the god's name or rituals connects the user to that part of the warp rather than some Dues Ex response from the god directly.
Which itself is supported by the stance of the fluff guru that the chaos god's don't even pay attention to their champions, making it more than unusual for every mutation to be a direct influence from the Chaos God.


Except there is canonical evidence the Chaos gods do pay attention to their Champions. The final ascension of a Champion to daemonhood is precipitated by this attention and decision on the part of the god, hence why this decision point was termed "Eye of God" in the Realms of Chaos. We also have evidence of Tzeentch paying attention to the whole Rubric situation, going so far as to speak directly to Magnus to stop him from destroying Ahriman. The description of daemon worlds and their battles in the Realms of Chaos and the 2nd ed. Chaos Codex also makes explicit mention of how the Chaos gods can deliberately set out elaborate conditions (sometimes seemingly nonsensical) for the battle, and act like rich old men gambling over small change.

Although at first glance it may seem odd, there's no reason to assume these two approaches are mutually exclusive.

At the end of the day, what ends up causing a lot of confusion is the various levels of description which apply to the Chaos Gods.

Say we're talking about a tornado. A tornado is just a set of air molecules acting in a certain recognisible way (ie spinning about as a group really fast), but we're still perfectly happy to simplify the wind patterns into a simple term: "tornado" for ease of communication.

"Bob died in a tornado" and "this rapidly moving group of air molecules caused an iron bar to strike Bob, resulting in permanent cessation of brain function" can mean exactly the same thing, it just depends on which level of description you want to talk.

I hope the analogy to the Chaos Gods is fairly clear.