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Gobbo Lord
19-03-2008, 19:09
Hi, as a long time greenskin player I obviously have a fear of Vampire Counts due to my armies poor leadership. I am facing the new version tomorrow and though I will be checking the army list, (from these forums alone it seems many people create illegal vampires and combinations) i was wondering if anyone could answer these questions.
1: Do raised units give victory points? ie; my opponent raises a unit in front of one of mine and i destroy it, say its, i dunno, 8 skeletons. would i get vp's for 8 skeletons?
2: My opponent raises a unit above its starting number (im aware you need a power to do this). I destroy it, do i get the units original cost in vp's or include the cost of any models raised above the starting number?
I want a fun game but also a fair one, in truth im very scared of the new army as it is and just want to be sure. Im hoping the general strategy of character killing works as this is what i found used to work against them, for my army anyway.
thanks

GodHead
19-03-2008, 19:16
The new Vampire Counts can only create new units of zombies now, and regardless of how many zombies are created, the unit is worth 50 Victory Points.

New models added to any unit, whether the unit was chosen as a unit selection or summoned onto the battlefield never alter the original victory points value.

explorator
19-03-2008, 19:51
Spirit Hosts can also be raised using the Wind of Death spell, but yeah, the value of each raised unit is fixed.

SuperBeast
19-03-2008, 20:02
Also bear in mind you wil ned to keep track of each raised Zombie unit's starting strength, as this is what determines the 50% VP requirement.
(eg. 6 Zombies raised requires 3 or less zombies at the end of the game to yield 50% VPs for the unit, regardless of additions or losses after it is raised)

Spirit
19-03-2008, 23:53
2: My opponent raises a unit above its starting number (im aware you need a power to do this). I destroy it, do i get the units original cost in vp's or include the cost of any models raised above the starting number?
I want a fun game but also a fair one, in truth im very scared of the new army as it is and just want to be sure. Im hoping the general strategy of character killing works as this is what i found used to work against them, for my army anyway.
thanks

Just to clarify for you, you do not need a power to raise zombies above starting strength, it is a zombie special rule that they may be raised above to begin with (and at the rate of d6+4 per spell, not d6)

Gobbo Lord
20-03-2008, 00:15
Thanks guys lots of help. Just hope my opponent doesnt use that sword/power combo everyone's arguing about in the other thread. Scary thought. Think my gobbo's may be in for a kicking. But ill hopefully learn their weakness so i can get "dem pointy mouth umies" next time.

Spirit
20-03-2008, 10:11
the weakness as it seems, is basically "snipe the vampires whit 'eadbutt" of course getting it to work can be a different story!

Gobbo Lord
20-03-2008, 11:00
yeah but im sure a single strength 5 hit will be replaced in their next magic phase. thats why im not sure about these new vampires. it seems if you do no destroy something in one turn they will use their ridiculus magic phase to return to full strength. Of course this is pure assumption. i will find out tonight.

Chicago Slim
20-03-2008, 12:32
You have some pretty serious anti-magic available to you, between cheap goblin scroll-caddies, and the Banner of 3 Dispel Dice. You could pretty easily build out with 7 dispel dice and 4 scrolls, and still have some solid fighting that'll blow through his chaff, allowing your Warboss to go Vampire-hunting.

Or, give the Warboss a Wyvern...

warlord hack'a
20-03-2008, 13:28
svg orcs and snots will be your friend as well as trolls as all are immune ot fear..

Chariots will also rock provided you can convince them to charge the fear causing undead of course

daemonkin
20-03-2008, 14:40
Had an orc opponent use the shield of spite against my vampire. Every '1' rolled deals vampire a str 5 hit. My vamp fluffed up and got killed for it. Lost the game as my army crumbled.

D.

Gorbad Ironclaw
21-03-2008, 05:03
yeah but im sure a single strength 5 hit will be replaced in their next magic phase. thats why im not sure about these new vampires. it seems if you do no destroy something in one turn they will use their ridiculus magic phase to return to full strength. Of course this is pure assumption. i will find out tonight.


They will likely try, but it's not like the vc player can just automatically say that his unit is back at full strenght.

For a start he might not have gone magic heavy, there are your own magic defence, the unit might not even be in range of the casters needed(Invocation is down to an 18" range, so fast moving elements can quickly get out of range), he might not succed in as many rolls as he need etc.

But yeah, the basic idea to concentrate firepower to kill something instead of crippling it is a good one, that way you are sure.

T10
21-03-2008, 12:17
Also bear in mind you wil ned to keep track of each raised Zombie unit's starting strength, as this is what determines the 50% VP requirement.
(eg. 6 Zombies raised requires 3 or less zombies at the end of the game to yield 50% VPs for the unit, regardless of additions or losses after it is raised)

While you make an important point here (units reduced to half size yields half VP's) you're basically making up rules as to how this is resolved.

The VC book sadly neglects to address the issue and conveniently assumes that these newly created units will be destroyed. Then again, that may be how it should work: that new units must be completely wiped out for the opponent to earn VPs for them.

-T10

GodHead
21-03-2008, 16:57
I think there is nothing to support your argument T10. I think SuperBeast had it spot on.

Original size is what the unit is summoned at, and half size is half.

Dartzstrong
21-03-2008, 17:05
GodHead would be correct on this. Although the Vampire's Book doesn't explain in detail, it doesn't have to. Half is half. So one would get 25vps if there were 3 zombies from a starting 6 zombie unit left by end game. That is why its helpful to take a unit that will move fast and deal tons of damage quickly. Things like 5-man wolf riders are fast, cheap, and can earn some easy victory points when it comes to picking off small units of zombies. But keep in mind, you must be magically protected since you never know what dirty trick the vampire might be keeping up his decayed sleeve :)

Gobbo Lord
21-03-2008, 17:43
Cheers everyone I won in the end, due to two things. The first was magic defense. Morks Spirit Totem on a unit of Big Uns and the staff of +1 to dispel. That staff is really helpfull against the one dice 3+ spells. The second is that zombies and skeletons are rubbish it combat, Orcs make mincemeat of them. Toughness four goes a long way.

Mercules
21-03-2008, 18:09
...the staff of +1 to dispel. That staff is really helpfull against the one dice 3+ spells.

Doh! :eek: You're right, that would be handy making the option of using one die to dispel much less of a gamble. I hope no one decides to use this on me since I tend to cast everything with 1 die with my Butchers.

T10
21-03-2008, 18:29
I think there is nothing to support your argument T10. I think SuperBeast had it spot on.


What are you talking about? I just pointed out that SuperBeast was making up some rules willy-nilly. They're OK rules, but still just something he made up.

-T10

GodHead
22-03-2008, 03:06
I'm "talking about" him not making up any rules at all.
I'm "talking about" the victory points rules in the main rulebook and the rules for Raised models and Victory points in the Vampire Counts book being very clear and in accordance with what SuperBeast said.
I'm "talking about" your posts not making any sense.

The rules as they relate:
1.) New units created during the battle have a value of 50 points for the purposes of calculating victory points, no matter the size of the unit at the time it was created, or any later additions. - Vampire Book p.38
2.) You also score VPs equal to half the unit's points value (round up) for each enemy unit reduced to half its original starting number of models or less. - Main Rulebook p.102

I can't see any way that this does not clearly outline the value of the unit being 50 points, of which the enemy will get 25 if the unit is reduced to half its original starting number of models.

Note that #1 does not say "if destroyed." If anything, one could argue that the opponent gets those 50 points AS SOON AS the summoned unit enters the battlefield, regardless of whether its destroyed or reduced below half, but I would say it's worth 50 points the same way any other unit is worth X points, and it's up to the enemy to capture those points in the usual methods.

Please also note that #2 does not say "original starting number of models that it had at the beginning of the game." The original starting number of models is simply the number of models the unit started with, in this case the number of models it had when it entered the game by being summoned.

But please outline how this is "willy nilly" if you can.

Krankenstein
22-03-2008, 18:09
I can't see any way that this does not clearly outline the value of the unit being 50 points, of which the enemy will get 25 if the unit is reduced to half its original starting number of models.


And the starting number of models were zero.

GodHead
22-03-2008, 20:40
No.... Like I said, the "starting number of models" is the initial size of the unit when it is summoned.

The starting number of models is the number of models the unit started with. In the case of summoned units, they start with X, where X is the number generated by the initial casting that summoned them.

If the VP rule did say something like "at the start of the game" then you guys might have a point, but it doesn't.

Necronartum
22-03-2008, 21:17
Whats this combo thread that everyone is talking/knows about that I have no idea about. I demand to be in the know!

Krankenstein
23-03-2008, 16:55
No.... Like I said, the "starting number of models" is the initial size of the unit when it is summoned.


Exactly. Like YOU said. The Vampire Count book just tells us to “keep a separate record of new units that are subsequently destroyed”. GW could easily have added a “or halved in strength” or some such, but they did not.

Now I’m not claiming any sort of certainly here. Who knows whether Gav Thorpe thought of VP for summoned units at ½ strength, or what he would have thought had he thought about it? Why, if I would claim I knew that for certain that would make me some sort of oracle.

GodHead
23-03-2008, 19:57
The Vampire book doesn't have to tell you that because the main rules do.

The Vampire rules tell you how many points the unit is worth.
The main rulebook tells you how to determine how many victory points a unit gives to an opponent at the end of the game. The criteria are reduced to half strength or destroyed.

There are no holes.

Krankenstein
23-03-2008, 20:38
And so on.

An off-topic thought.

Perhaps the mayor problem of Warhammer Fantasy Battles many unclear rules, is that they make rules fighting a viable strategy. Not just for fighting over a battle-winning interpretation, but also for disrupting an opponents thinking and emotional equilibrium at a critical time by pushing a “minor” issue. When facing such an opponent, my advice would be not to trust any rules argument he makes, but only to fight the battle-winning issues, and thus preserve your own mental momentum.

GodHead
23-03-2008, 20:44
I don't know what kind of Warhammer you play, but there aren't any arguments during games here. In regular games it's a simple roll-off, and in tournaments it's a simple "call the judge over."

Discussions of the rules are always best left to after the game for the pub, or for the forums.