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vorac
20-03-2008, 06:18
Well this may be premature but after 3 games i am yet to be impressed with my Vamp army. I used to play primarily Blood dragons and i just can't play the aggresive way i used to for 5th and 6th. The characters seriously lack protection in the form of armor, there is a lot of wasted points just to buy bloodline powers just to have the armour.I don't find the new vampires are as costumisable as everyone believes especially for hero level vamps the choices are quite unappealing and creates a lot of clones which is what i had before.The Magic is also meh, i played a game today whit a lord who had all of the vampire spells and all i cast all game was ION and Vanhels, imo curse of years blows with a range of 18" and starting on 6 hell i never had it last past 5 in the old rules, the raise dead spell is also way too short. But my biggest regret is that the HE were absolutely horrible to face when they came out that i even got a massacre in my first game with a friends army and i have been playing vampire counts since there creation and i still haven't won a game but my friend has yet to lose after 12 games with HE.



here are some points about the army


Vamp characters are much easier to kill than before, we get less options for protection.

Core choices: horde or no horde the fact that the minimum i have to spend is 240 points for 60 worthless zombies or 30 ghouls/skeletons instead of useful direwovles is so boring and makes every VC army look alike.

speaking of core i have yet to have a single choice survive a game except the ghouls. i buy units of 20 and can't heal them fast enough.

Black Knights are ethereal yay, the still bounce off even knoblars boo, and vamp who join them screw with their special rules double boo

Spirit Hosts i love these guys but hate the 3 base minimum

Black Coach i really like the new rules despite one post i made last week, it takes a while to get going but once it doest it can't be stopped, but it's not for tounys

Blood Knights......i'm a Former Blood Dragon player i can't say anything bad about them, i have enough mounted BD's that i could make 2 units hehe

Wraiths......they took away my banshees, now i have 3 banshees that need at least 6 wraiths to babysit them for 525 points( not likely i'll ever use more than one so off to ebay for the 2 sisters)

Vargulf ... defenitely on the list of theings to buy

Corpse Cart.. still mixed feelings about it, it seems to prone to dying quickly

Grave Guard rock and i love Greatweapons.

Fell Bats.. They still bounce, they even bounce of peasant bowmen today and i had raised them up to 7 models( but that was bad dice 9 hits, 1 wound)

12 magic banners seems a bit much, we could have used a few more blood line powers of magic armours.




anyways enough of my ranting, please feel free to add comments either good or bad i love hearing peoples opinions.

larabic
20-03-2008, 07:36
Well yes, core troops do make armies look similar, but that is a good thing. You can't always go to war with just the creme of the crop. Dogs / wolves etc never count towards core troops in any army nowadays so its not just you. Not having protection is a big thing but there has to be some kind of achilies heel to them, you can't throw your lord into combat without thinking in a vampire counts army.

Petey
20-03-2008, 07:46
wow, i had the opposite feelings

I've had 3 games with VC and i ve won each of them to greater or lesser degrees. There's a ton more you can do with them now, to include a list that s lahmia flavored with 7 bound spells and grave guard that hit on 2s.
You can use the banner of always near a vampireness to make your black knights highly mobile flank support (or give them a vargulf and dire wolfs to do a hammer and anvil strategy).
As to the core units, your mistake is that you buy 20 man units, those are never big enough. I always do 25 or 30 (go heavy or go home principal) as their only job in (un)life is to act as a vampire or wight delivery system.
Also on that note stop thinking about only vampires. The Wight King is amazing, and you should throw him in with those black knights you complain about.
As to the magic lores, why the hell are you complaining, you play BD. You should be used to no spell power. If you go Spell heavy via magic items and BL powers you ll do much better with spells being effective.
As to the vampire being easier to kill, you actually mean that it s possible now. Well boo hoo for giving the other side a chance. Seriously though, it s not much of a chance. You can still have a 2plus armor save with a 4plus ward save and have enough points to go sickhouse on enemy units. Yeah you re stupid, but you ve got lead ten, you ll be fine. Most people i knew took that crown last edition too.
As to the page of magic banners for skellies, I have to totally disagree with you. I m glad they get that. It not only makes sense from a game balance and fluff point of view, but it also makes your units more customizable. I would love to see the Empire and high elves get more and better cheap banners.

As to the current HE book. I hate the direction they took everything. Fluffwise. I don't like that they dont' have the equivalent of kithbands like the WE. Freaking Athel Loren is the size of a forest, and they have like 12 distinct clans that you can make your heroes be part of in a very real way. Ulthuan is the size of EUROPE with provinces the size of COUNTRIES and they get all the same cookie cutter bland hero. They didn't even need much to make them special, but no, the direction they went was to throw away the concept of a Force org chart and to insult the intelligence of every high elf player. Anyone with a basic concept in math can see the Dragon Princes are amazing compared to Silver Helms and cost only a few more points. This means most armies will forgo the Silver helms when they need heavy cav and go with the DP. You know, ignore the cav. that 's supposed to be everywhere in Elflandia, and go with the uber powered rare cav. that few ever see, because there s so few of them left. Lame.
Poor game design makes HE armies that are well designed for winning/general play look like the exact opposite that the fluff says they should look like. As opposed to VC which the fluff and the game design go hand in hand

not throwing stones at you Vorac but i hate getting shafted on the army that i started the game on, when the new VC book is a godsend.

Skitter-Squeek
20-03-2008, 08:01
Dude no Offense But your opponent must be a tactical Mastermind Or you are not playing Very Smart and Running your Vamp lord Straight against a hellblaster with only ten dudes in his unit or something. Vampire Counts are Down right Annoying as they are scary. I have faced them a couple times now and I must Say even in the hands of a beginning player they are very forgiving. GRanted I am 2 and 1 Against them so Far they have my upmost respect. I am Sort of Scared of the poor people who will be facing two units of 10 cairn Wraiths and have no magic shooting to handle them. And also as far as magic goes it is Awsome... I must say at first Wind Of undeath or whatever its called I wasn't too thrilled with when I read about it, but when you have two go off in a row and all the sudden two spirit hosts pop up with around 2-3 bases each your like whoa! :eek:


All I gotta say is give them more time Mate, They will Click with ya soon enough. even if you been playing them for ever they still have new tactics you need to adapt. Something I am sort of dreading when The skaven get done as being it Took me a while to learn to play them a certain way etc.(and no not a sad player)



SKitter Squeek

bluesky322
20-03-2008, 08:06
ive yet to play them but looking through the book i feel sorta disapointed i agree that i feel like the book is sorta bland and very restrictive

Penitent Engine
20-03-2008, 10:53
Restrictive? DO you mean the core units restrictions? I found them a bit annoying to, but if you want to have a fast-moving or elite army just take three units of 20 Zombies-a grand :eyebrows: total of 240pts.

To be honest I prefer the unit restrictions to the old bloodlines. The book also seems to have more flavour, with more info on other VAmpires (who'd heard of the Black Prince before?) and on regular Vampiric history. Although more stories would have been nice...

Spirit
20-03-2008, 12:43
I dont see how you can say vampires are restricted in armour.

Every vampire can take a 3+ save, a lance and a horse, for 25 points, this is cheap as it it, but on top of that, you get your 75 points of other stuff on a thrall and 175 points of other stuff on a lord.

On top of that you have a 2+ save armour. A full plate armour that you can combine with a horse and shield and has a 5+ ward, 2 other ward saves, 4+ and 6+ (oh noes, stupidity with ld10!!!1) A regeneration banner for your bsb AND unit.

Im sorry but "my vampires died because i didn't buy them enough protection" is not the same as "vampires to not have enough protection.

Core choices: Oh no! You can't min max on wolves and knights, boo, hoo. I'm sorry but this is the sort of army list warhamer NEEDS, force people to use the rank and file, its what the game was designed around. And last i checked 10 skeletons was 80 points, so in a 2250 game that a MASSIVE 240 points on core, which you can raise above starting strength, so id get the command, with no musican, so thats you now at 288 points for a core that will still pose a threat when you raise it up.

Black knights, right, so why does a unit with the potential to attack with lances in the magic phase, re roll failed hits, hit on a 2+, bounce? Just because a knight unit wont maul any other unit in the front, doesn't make them useless. They can march through ******* woods with 16" movement and a 2+ save for god sake, flank the bloody knoblars. My black knights never bounce now, add a wight lord into them and you have something thats better than a blood dragon vamp.

Hell, if you want to, buy a wight and use a blood dragon vampire model. It makes sense, a thrall with 3 wounds, no magic and toughness 5? Sounds like a blood dragon to me. Just because they didn't post "blood dragon thrall" next to "vampire" does not mean you can't fluff your army up to make it a blood dragon thrall, i'm sure no one would moan about wsyswig in this case.

/rant

Spirit
20-03-2008, 12:50
ive yet to play them but looking through the book i feel sorta disapointed i agree that i feel like the book is sorta bland and very restrictive

How can you say this? There are endless combinations for your vampires, you can tool them out for any roll, you can have fast hitting, or supporting, or ones that make your army bigger, or ones that make your army better. Vampires that kill stuff and bring your own stuff back at the same time...[/B]

Not to mention combos like ghouls and vampires, GG great weapons and carts, carts in units, mass vanhells.

Anything is possible with this army book, and although there are many errors in the way it was written, this detracts nothing from the content.

neXus6
20-03-2008, 12:53
I think to be honest you just need to start over. Bin your old way of thinking and playing and come up with new ones that play to the new books, considerable, power. :)
It'll take time but you'll get used to not having a Vampire Delivery system and actually having an army. :D

Gromdal
20-03-2008, 13:03
ive yet to play them but looking through the book i feel sorta disapointed i agree that i feel like the book is sorta bland and very restrictive


In 6th edition i played dwarfs then chaos then brets. I was really impressed with the VC and the blood dragons and decided when 7th came id roll em if they looked that great again.

I cannot agree more with the statement above.
No bloodlines anymore Blood dragons gone its all the same.

The core choices not being able to do a full cav army or elite one is boring.

The equipment choices for your vampires are so limited, no high armor saves unless you mount em

Spirit
20-03-2008, 13:31
In 6th edition i played dwarfs then chaos then brets. I was really impressed with the VC and the blood dragons and decided when 7th came id roll em if they looked that great again.

I cannot agree more with the statement above.
No bloodlines anymore Blood dragons gone its all the same.

The core choices not being able to do a full cav army or elite one is boring.

The equipment choices for your vampires are so limited, no high armor saves unless you mount em




they never got a high armour save before unless you mounted them. Most of them only ever had a ward save because the were carting magic. (exeoot blood dragons, who only got heavy armour or full plate when on foot, which they can STILL get)

If you didn't play blood dragons, only one vampire had a decent save (the flayed hauberk) so this reasoning is stupid, they did not erase the blood dragons, they simply let you make your own one up now. 2+ save, auto hit lance, wounds = more attacks, re-rolling wounds, hatred, great weapons, its all in there, so "i cant put a blood dragon into a unit and run it at the enemy to win" is not an excuse.

I really don't understand how people can say "they have less armour" when all of the lords get a decent save, and most thralls can have one as well, its only when you have 3+ thralls you might have a problem, but even then not so much, because one will be a caster.
You can still do a full cavelry army, just because you don't get cheap, overpowered S4 on the charge wolves at 50 points per core does not make the army bad.

Every f riggin' blood dragon army in the old book was exactly the same they had minimum core, mounted vamps, one vamp in a GG unit and they ran at you. How can youpossibly say that removing this option made them "less diverse" it makes them so much more, because people are forced to look at the army and think about combinations, instead of just running and hoping.

daemonkin
20-03-2008, 13:31
Corpse Cart.. still mixed feelings about it, it seems to prone to dying quickly

With a 3+ armour, 4+ ward and 4+ regen save this thing will stick around for the duration. My 1 corpse cart got trod on by Gork twice and took the hits from a fanatic and was still rocking along.

My first game with the new army was at 1,500 against orcs and was a steep learning curve. The Black Knights did not get in combat but scared off an orc chariot and threatened a flank, my grave guard was a delivery system for my wight king with slayer of kings to decapitate the orc big boss but the unit got stomped on by a giant!

With only a level 1 vamp and level 1 necro my magic was awful. I think that the army will perform better with more points 2,000+ for a lord (level 3 with +2PD I suggest). Looking forward to getting more units on the field.

D.

Spirit
20-03-2008, 13:43
Daemon, he said corpse cart, not black coach in that quote..

Unless there is something i miss read about the corpse cart.

Frankly
20-03-2008, 14:46
.

Core choices: horde or no horde the fact that the minimum i have to spend is 240 points for 60 worthless zombies or 30 ghouls/skeletons instead of useful direwovles is so boring and makes every VC army look alike.



All viable points Vorac, nice post, but this one is a point that really sticks in my claw.

I loved playing all cavalry last edition. I was a bit pissy when I found out the my 102 dire wolves weren't minimum core units any more.

fracas
20-03-2008, 17:33
couldn't blood dragons cast magic spells while wearing armor before?
none can now and i am not even sure about that night shroud (necros can take it but it does not say a necro taking it can cast spells)

and there seemed to be more ward save items with the old list as well.

vorac
20-03-2008, 18:04
actually in the new warhammer rulebook everyone can cast magic with armour. And yes there were more Ward save items in the old book.

In the last edition i always had core infantry but rarely 3 units, usually 2 units of 20 skeleton warriors and then some wolves, these days i can hardly find the points for the wolves. I have 4 Blood Dragon Vampires on foot and the limited BSB and so far all i can use is the BSB which i must say rocks seeing as i never ran a bsb before. This guy took on 4 pegasus knights and held them up for 4 turns until he finally beat them and ran them down. my problem is that if you want a thrall with a decent save you need to buy Avatar of Death and then an enchanted shield to have a 2+ in cc for a whopping 35 pts.where as before it only cost 14 pts. The bloodlines powers are all costed at 50/35/30/25/15 pts. they could have included some at 20 or 10 just for some different combos now if you buy one at 30 or 35 your stuck with only the summon abilities which doesn't seem very flexible to me.


I have tried the wight King and i do find that he is very good.

Urgat
20-03-2008, 18:10
There is no rule preventing anybody to cast anything while wearing armour in 7th edition. This goes for vampires too. (edit: beaten to it :p)
To me the new book seems very powerful, to be honest, and more fun than the previous one, I just need to buy a couple stuff to complete my current army to try it out, and I can't wait.

The Clairvoyant
20-03-2008, 18:43
Every f riggin' blood dragon army in the old book was exactly the same they had minimum core, mounted vamps, one vamp in a GG unit and they ran at you. How can youpossibly say that removing this option made them "less diverse" it makes them so much more, because people are forced to look at the army and think about combinations, instead of just running and hoping.

I must've been doing something wrong then cos my blood dragons never looked like that :D

For my money, i'd say the Blood Dragon players got some fab buffs with this new book. OK, my old arrogant lord character (ward save or shield, no magic items, just BL powers and dual HW) lost his 7 WS10 S6 rerollable misses (first round only), but now those rerollable misses are every round, and with the new version of red fury, 7 attacks is still quite attainable.
The two most important things for Blood Dragon players is no longer being forced into challenging enemies when you're rather just blat the regiment instead and no longer losing that power dice.
In fact, no matter what family you played last edition, your vamps are now better.

The Wight King is 10 times better than last book, +1T and +1W is not to be sniffed at. Necromancers, although only level 1 are great supporting characters and cheap as chips. The rarely-used wraith is back in units where it belongs and people are starting to use them again (admittedly it makes banshees much more expensive but by the same token, much safer to leave wandering around).
For me, dire wolves have always lived up to their name - dire. Die in droves and i can't remember the last time i actually got to use the S4 on the charge!

This book has been the most fun to write army lists with. At 4000pts, a first draft of what i want in the army usually comes out at 4700pts (at least!) and its been a challenge carving chunks out of the army to make things fit, but its been fun all the while - which is why i chuckle when i read people saying that Blood Knights are too expensive for a 2000pt game, but a 'no-brainer' at 3000. Trust me, they're not. I still can't squeeze them in! :D

Anyway, to the opening poster, its a shame you haven't been totally enamoured with the new book, but as a long-serving undead player, i absolutely love the new rules.

Yade
20-03-2008, 18:44
First off in my personal opinion corpse carts need to be taken in quantities. their ability to cripple the opponents magic phase is unparalled. Not to mention all of their bound effects helping eat you opponents dispel dice; which makes your spells more powerful.

I use my vampire lord as a support character, which does not sound like your play style. Unfortunately you are abolutely correct in that keeping him alove is a real challenge if you send him rushing in.

zombie units of 20 is never going to work. They need to be much larger to be effective. I have only lost 1 zombie unit since I have been playing the new list and my unit is 40 strong. (I took a flank hit from 7 dragon princes with the +d6 combat res banner and tyrion, and I had taked 15 wounds going into it) Considering my foe I am willing to vouch that 40 zombies are almost all but unstoppable.

I am going to compose another unit of 20 grave guard myself. they are crazy especially with a corpse cart and the lord with the helm of command nearby

Str 6
ASF
Killing Blow
WS 7
Reroll misses in combat
fear causing
unbreakable
Double US banner

and you can res multiples of them using nehek and the #5 spell

Mad Doc Grotsnik
20-03-2008, 19:10
Curse of Years has actually improved somewhat, as it now kicks in and reduces the dice score needed in every round of Magic, not just your own. This makes it more than twice as effective overall, plus, it means you can use it for whittling rather than devastating units due to it being 'remains in play'.

Put it this way, it activates at the beginning of the Magic Phase. Thus, once you cast, you kill 1 in 6. Then it bumps of 1 in 3 in your opponents phase (assuming he hasn't dispelled it of course!) and then, in your Magic phase, it takes care of half the remaining models. Not at all bad for a single spell which you can then either leave for another turn (pretty much guaranteeing a premature death for the whole unit) or can cast on another to mess them up some.

alpha_dude
20-03-2008, 20:18
I just wanted to make a note about blood dragons in the previous edition and armour. I think a couple of people mentioned that you can still give vamps 4+ plate save, but in the old book it was only lords who got this, and plate is not available anymore (for some reason). I still think avatar of death is terribly overpriced compared to dread knight. In the previous book a thrall could get the same stuff for 12-15pts cheaper. 20pts is too much for just heavy armour, plus choice of shield/additional weapon/great weapon. Other races get these combinations for Lords and Heroes for around 12 - 8 points respectively.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
20-03-2008, 20:23
However, it's the mix and match potential of VC Bloodlines that have lead to higher points on less conspicuous things.

For example, no other Lord or Hero get attacks for killing stuff really, and a Lance makes you better at that, ergo, it's a slightly higher price.

snyggejygge
20-03-2008, 20:38
You must be doing something wrong, ok Iīve only played 2 games sofar w. the new Vamps, but I havenīt lost any of my 2 Vamps so far (& all the save they have is a 2+ armoursave, lord from the Dread Knight bloodline & "Thrall" from the Flayed Hauerk), you canīt just throw them into combat w. the hardest enemy unit/character there is, unless you tool them for it, but then you canīt go magic heavy (in which case itīs understandable your core sux).

neXus6
20-03-2008, 20:42
Basically the people complaining about the new army book on this thread seem to be the ones who played that oh so fun :rolleyes: vampire delivery system blood dragon army in the previous rules.

To be honest if they are complaining that just makes me like the new book even more. :p

W0lf
20-03-2008, 23:31
In fact, no matter what family you played last edition, your vamps are now better.

I prefered my old vampire lord with 6 S6 atatcks, eternal hatred, 5 wounds and a 5+ ward save. I cant get HIM anymore.

superknijn
20-03-2008, 23:34
But was that lord as good a caster as your current one?

The Clairvoyant
20-03-2008, 23:36
I prefered my old vampire lord with 6 S6 atatcks, eternal hatred, 5 wounds and a 5+ ward save. I cant get HIM anymore.

yeah well tough! :p

Anvilbrow
21-03-2008, 03:05
Can't replicate your old Lord? Boo hoo.

The armor/weapon combo cost more becasue they are more effective on a tougher/faster/stronger character. The same reason Goblin Lords don't pay as much for the same equipment combo as Chaos Lords.

Imagine the following: A pistol in the hands of a BS 6 lord versus a BS 3 lord should cost a bit more to try to achieve some game balance. It is far more effective in the hands of the better BS model, just as heavy armor on a guy who kills more opponents before they strike, gets hit less and is harder to wound is intrinsically better. (I'm sure some math-hammer geek is going to "prove" me wrong soon...)

On the original note, I have played against the new VC army about a half dozen times and seen about twenty other games with them and I have seen them lose exactly twice. Both losses were to Empire knight/flagellant armies with Popemobiles and steam tanks.

I played a 3000 point game against them last week and my opponent was pumping out 24 PD per turn and had three bound items, plus some nasty Vampires (naturally good fighters even naked) and other trickses.

The general consensus in my gaming group is that they are among the nest armies in the game. Power creep? To some degree.

Before you cry shenanigans, know that my group includes some very solid players with about a dozen top ten finishes in GTs over the last two editions.

Dranthar
21-03-2008, 05:49
I've so far played one game against with the new VCs and I have to say, I'm impressed with the new rules. Despite my initial reservations about some aspects (magic) the army as a whole actually feels quite balanced.

Vampires and what they're capable of has changed in new and interesting ways. They can become pretty overwhelming in the magic phase and are potentially very hard to kill in combat (Blood Drinker, Crown of the Damned, the various armours and the Carstein ring all help in the latter regard). While they can still maul infantry like nobodys business, it's no longer quite as easy to take on other characters - alot of the items and powers (eg. Red Fury and blood drinker) just aren't all that helpful in cracking open whatever defenses they may have.

The magic phase has become very interesting - despite the fearsome volume of power dice, it's not quite so easy to spend them all efficiently. With the new zombies, Raise dead can become a liability if you squander it, and there's only so much value in adding yet more models to your ghouls/skeletons with invocation.
Van hels is as great as always but the reduced range makes it far trickier to use effectively. Positioning of your spell casters has become much more important as a result.

I think alot of the time the Vampire Lord will become the lynchpin in your magic phase. He's the one who can reliably cast the offensive spells but then you have to decide whether you want to do that, or to instead devote your magic to van hels for instance...assuming you're even in range to do something decent with it.

One final note - I'm starting to see real differences in the 'style' of magic items that turn up in each army book now. For instance Orcs and goblins have some truely awesome magic weapons and enchanted items that just exude raw power (eg. strength and attacks), yet their defensive items and arcane items tend to be fairly mediocre (not bad, just okay)
Vampire counts on the other hand, have some nice offensive abilities, but very little that stands out with the sort of value and power level that the Orc weapons do (can you imagine a Vampire with shaggas screaming sword?). On the other hand alot of their magic items are instead focussed around enhancing their defenses and the magic phase.
Personally, I think that's just great. :D

Kingrick
21-03-2008, 07:20
They are definitly a tough army to play man.

Frankly
21-03-2008, 08:29
Basically the people complaining about the new army book on this thread seem to be the ones who played that oh so fun :rolleyes: vampire delivery system blood dragon army in the previous rules.

To be honest if they are complaining that just makes me like the new book even more. :p

ahhhhhhh ... nice blanket statement brother.

I love it when people point the finger from their high horse.

The new armybook is great, but that doesn't mean the whole damned thing is super solid and we all have to love every inch of it.

Mireadur
21-03-2008, 10:34
So we can conclude Thorpe's posthumous work was a good one?

Personally im happy to see most of the changes.

alpha_dude
21-03-2008, 11:13
Can't replicate your old Lord? Boo hoo.

The armor/weapon combo cost more becasue they are more effective on a tougher/faster/stronger character. The same reason Goblin Lords don't pay as much for the same equipment combo as Chaos Lords.



Hmm...i think you may find they are the same (GW 6 and 6, shield 3 and 3 etc).

Don't get me wrong, i love the new book, but my only gripe is that avatar of death is too much (especially on the hero level vamp) !

Frankly
21-03-2008, 11:39
It'd be wicked if he could have a GW, 2 H.Weapons and a shield like black orks. That would be cool.

Ixquic
21-03-2008, 11:40
I prefered my old vampire lord with 6 S6 atatcks, eternal hatred, 5 wounds and a 5+ ward save. I cant get HIM anymore.

My current Vampire has the potential to do 10 wounds a turn (generally gets around 6-7) has a 4+ ward save, is a level 3 caster and everyone that tries to attack her goes last. I'm pretty ok with the tradeoff.

I do agree that the new core choices suck though. Having to choose between 3 different hand to hand infantry is boring. I wish they would have made dire wolves a "take two units to count as one core choice" or maybe only one unit of dire wolves satisfies the core requirements. I understand they want people to use the basic junk, but it seems like overkill if you don't want a foot slogger army. I use Grave Guard already so I really just don't need three other crappy blocks of infantry in a 2000 point game.


Hmm...i think you may find they are the same (GW 6 and 6, shield 3 and 3 etc).

Don't get me wrong, i love the new book, but my only gripe is that avatar of death is too much (especially on the hero level vamp) !

Yeah I agree; I generally just use a Wight King if I need a fighter hero character anyway though.

Dranthar
21-03-2008, 11:41
Don't get me wrong, i love the new book, but my only gripe is that avatar of death is too much (especially on the hero level vamp) !

Yeah I have to agree - I'm finding it quite difficult to justify taking Avatar of Death on anyone, especially if you end up buying him better armour afterwards (which is not unlikely).

I think what would have improved Avatar of Death to the realms of usability is if you got Heavy armour, shield, an extra hand weapon AND a great weapon - sort of like the Black orcs "armed to da teef" rule. It'd make the power much more interesting, is usable and would be quite fluffy too. :D

Petey
22-03-2008, 08:20
I prefered my old vampire lord with 6 S6 atatcks, eternal hatred, 5 wounds and a 5+ ward save. I cant get HIM anymore.

You can keep him, and try him against my lord with 4 attacks that always hit on S7 (during a charge) of which any unsaved wounds cause more attacks, which all also hit automatically. And that s before he gets a CC bonus a 2+ armor save and a 4+ ward at the low low cost of stupidity. On average this guy has gotten me 7-8CR, and when he joins a melee already in play it's game over.

speedygogo
22-03-2008, 08:44
You can keep him, and try him against my lord with 4 attacks that always hit on S7 (during a charge) of which any unsaved wounds cause more attacks, which all also hit automatically. And that s before he gets a CC bonus a 2+ armor save and a 4+ ward at the low low cost of stupidity. On average this guy has gotten me 7-8CR, and when he joins a melee already in play it's game over.

That's a viscious combo. However, I would lose the stupidity and just put him in a unit with the drakenhoff banner.

Gromdal
22-03-2008, 10:16
they never got a high armour save before unless you mounted them. Most of them only ever had a ward save because the were carting magic. (exeoot blood dragons, who only got heavy armour or full plate when on foot, which they can STILL get)

If you didn't play blood dragons, only one vampire had a decent save (the flayed hauberk) so this reasoning is stupid, they did not erase the blood dragons, they simply let you make your own one up now. 2+ save, auto hit lance, wounds = more attacks, re-rolling wounds, hatred, great weapons, its all in there, so "i cant put a blood dragon into a unit and run it at the enemy to win" is not an excuse.

I really don't understand how people can say "they have less armour" when all of the lords get a decent save, and most thralls can have one as well, its only when you have 3+ thralls you might have a problem, but even then not so much, because one will be a caster.
You can still do a full cavelry army, just because you don't get cheap, overpowered S4 on the charge wolves at 50 points per core does not make the army bad.

Every f riggin' blood dragon army in the old book was exactly the same they had minimum core, mounted vamps, one vamp in a GG unit and they ran at you. How can youpossibly say that removing this option made them "less diverse" it makes them so much more, because people are forced to look at the army and think about combinations, instead of just running and hoping.

i could have 2+ armor on all my vamps and great weapons (full plate+mount+barding). Now i can have 5+ and great weapon.....that is a hvy drop in armor not to mention the str.

The fact i cant use dire wolves as core makes it impossible to field an all cavalry army unlike what u claim.

the removing of bloodlines however is the most boring and bland choice of all.
now all the vc armies playes very similiar, and its one word: necromancy.

before there was alot more choice where u could actually go non magic.

as said i was thinking about rolling VC when 7th hit, i jst loved em in 6th but i wont now, they are a bland, boring army.

Dranthar
22-03-2008, 12:09
as said i was thinking about rolling VC when 7th hit, i jst loved em in 6th but i wont now, they are a bland, boring army.

That's a pretty hasty call to make, considering how long the new VC book has been out and especially considering that even without the bloodline restrictions, they still have a great deal more variety as to how to equip their characters compared to alot of other books.

Low/null magic can still be done with VC. In fact, the only things that a low-magic army has lost is the Blood Dragon-specific rules (ie. -1 power die) and magic-free vampire thralls.
In exchange they got a boost in combat ability (vargulf, blood knights, GW-armed Grave guard, banners for everyone, the regeneration banner, ethereal black knights, better skeletons, Helm of Command, Wight Kings), and anti-magic (coach, cheaper scroll caddies, possibly the corpse cart).

What's not to like?

Irisado
22-03-2008, 12:20
I haven't played a game with the new book yet, but I've read it cover to cover, and I believe that it is a definite improvement over the sixth edition book.

The flexibility of the Vampires is such now that I can create my own personalised them and narrative for my army. I'm really looking forward to this.

There are so many possibilities now that I just can't decide exactly how I am going to put my list together, and I feel that this is a good thing.

The Wight King is definitely going to be included in my list. I think in many ways, he is actually superior to a hero level Vampire, and he will certainly be leading my Black Knights into battle.

The fact that Skeletons, Zombies and Ghouls will now make up VC armies is also a step forward. This is how it should be. Undead armies are not known for the variability of their rank and file, rather their variability comes in their choice of Rare Units, and the abilities of the Vampires.

The new book is a very positive development as far as I am concerned.

Spirit
22-03-2008, 13:36
i could have 2+ armor on all my vamps and great weapons (full plate+mount+barding). Now i can have 5+ and great weapon.....that is a hvy drop in armor not to mention the str.

The fact i cant use dire wolves as core makes it impossible to field an all cavalry army unlike what u claim.

the removing of bloodlines however is the most boring and bland choice of all.
now all the vc armies playes very similiar, and its one word: necromancy.

before there was alot more choice where u could actually go non magic.

as said i was thinking about rolling VC when 7th hit, i jst loved em in 6th but i wont now, they are a bland, boring army.


1. Blood dragon lord - dread knight, red fury, dread lance, accursed armour, walking death.

Level 3 mage with T6, 2+ save and 4 auto hit S7 attacks that give you more attacks when you wound.

2. Blood dragon thrall - Anything you want, flayed hauberk

2+ save

3. Wight lord - Barded nightmare, lance, whatever you want.

2+ save

4. Vampire thrall - Dread knight, whatever you want

2+ save

5. Vampire thrall - Bloody hauberk, avatar of death (hw and shield.)

2+ save



I'm sorry but i stick to my original theory, just because you cant take all blood dragons with all great weapons/ lances with 2+ save and hatred ect ect ect with 15 cheese wolves to max out your core, does not make the army less diverse.

If you tried playing with ANY other vampire bloodline you could see that only blood dragons got saves, which was ridiculous. Every single von carstein vampire comes to work in his dress robes? Nah it was stupid, and has now been sorted.

They have not removed the bloodlines, just because they haven't put it into handy little categories for you saying "combat" "magic" "psychology" and "help your army" (blood dragon, necrarch, lahmian, von carstein respectively) does not mean they have removed them. Most of the bloodlines are still there but now you can mix and match to have the vampire you really want. Removing the categories just made it better.

You can still go non magic, just because every vampire is a lvl 1 wizard does not mean you have to have more than this. In a 2k game, with just vampires, you can have only 5 levels of magic, this is not magic heavy. You can tool them all up for combat if you want.

Again, your argument of "oh teh noes!!11 they removed a ******** cavalry list with stupid core choices.." is not valid.

And to go with that, i never said you could have a "whole cavalry army" i said you have to spend 240 points on non cavalry things (a 10th of your army! shock and horror) and then you can have all the cavalry you want.

thegrayson
22-03-2008, 14:26
I have yet to play a game with the new book however after reading I am struck by the potential in the new army. So much has changed that I don't know where to begin. Gone are my skirmishing Ghouls and Dire Wolves no longer count towards my core troop minimum.
I never bothered with Vamps before always chossing to field Necromancers, my first game with the new book will be a huge change for me.
My only real complaint is the models. No new Necromancers or Wight Lords. I was never impressed with the current Necromancers, I don't own any and the mounted Wight Lord's horse is a mess. Thankfully with parts from the Coprse Cart sprue and a few bits from the Empire Wizard box a few nice Necros can be built.

Spider
22-03-2008, 15:03
As much as i loved my old Blood Dragon list you have to look to the positives.

Sure, our old BD lords have died out. But we now have better magic, our lords aren't as nasty as before, but they are still evil. But overall our "thralls" have been improved, a bit more expensive but they actually cast magic now.

And dont forget that the old VC Lord cost a lord and a hero slot. The new guy doesnt. So we get one more vamp per army (points willing).

I reckon overall out vampires are better (from a game POV). I do think they are slightly blander though, i liked the downsides to the old bloodlines. But then again the old Blood Dragons had no real downsides.

I just regret that our old faithfull ghouls that had unique purpose and definate character are "just" another rank and file unit. Again, probably functionally better than before...but at a loss of personality.

Mixed feelings? Yup. lol.

fubukii
22-03-2008, 15:19
id say blood dragon lords have been improved alot

4 str 7 attacks on the charge that auto hit (go dreadlance a great magic weapon) and red fury got improved giving you more attacks for each wound, against your average unit that guy is causing 6-8 wounds on the unit, alot more then any old vampirelord could of caused.

Jack of Blades
22-03-2008, 16:46
Our lords aren't as nasty as before? what is this crap?

We've got the meanest clowns in Warhammer, if you have the points to spend on it. Give me an old Blood Dragon lord with 100 points of Magic Items/Bloodline Powers (feel free to use 100 points of each) and mounted on a Zombie Dragon, I'll show you a Lord or even a Thrall/Wight King which will stand up to it, beat it into the ground and use the guy and his mount as a noseplucker.

Seriously, VC has only improved.

siphon101
22-03-2008, 17:23
I prefered my old vampire lord with 6 S6 atatcks, eternal hatred, 5 wounds and a 5+ ward save. I cant get HIM anymore.

You never could. What you could get was a lord who makes s6 attacks on the charge only, with regular hatred, not eternal hatred (heart piercing only ever worked on the first round of combat).

There is a tendancy to romanticise the old book, but objectively speaking, you didn't get a 6 s6 attack vampire who rerolls misses.

You had a vampire who made s6 attacks on the charge only who rerolled the first round of every combat only.

well ok, but now you can have 5 s5 attacks rerolling all misses, wounds triggering more attacks, 3+/5+ save. And be a better wizard.

Spider
22-03-2008, 18:31
Thing is i used to have a lord that (on the charge) hit on 2+, with strength 7 (or 6), lots of attacks and the enemy was at -1 to hit back. He may also have the ability to stop one of your attacks.

Old Blood Dragon lord + options > new vamp "Blood Dragon" + options.

But overall i would say that the new character/hero choices work better...more magic can only be good.

It comes down to a matter of opinion really.

Jack of Blades
22-03-2008, 18:37
I guess it's opinion. The former VC characters were lame imo, and this is a huge improvement.

As for the 6 S6 attacks that you re-roll misses on with 5 wounds and a 5+ ward save: Sword of Might, Infinite Hatred, Red Fury, Crown of the Damned. Spend the remaining points however you want.

sulla
22-03-2008, 19:34
Restrictive? DO you mean the core units restrictions? I found them a bit annoying to, but if you want to have a fast-moving or elite army just take three units of 20 Zombies-a grand :eyebrows: total of 240pts.


Far better off taking 3 10's of ghouls and the free march move bloodline to support your fast army. But regardless of that, I think you're missing the point. VC are supposed to be an infantry based army, hence the nerf of the all mounted army. Players who master infantry tactics will be far more successful with the new book than those that rely solely on their cavalry.


I prefered my old vampire lord with 6 S6 atatcks, eternal hatred, 5 wounds and a 5+ ward save. I cant get HIM anymore.

infinite hatred; takes care of the hatred bit
red fury; you might get more than 6 attacks if you are lucky
sword of might; s6 viola!
EITHER bloody hauberk or cadaver cuirass; for armour save plus ward or armour save plus immunity to KB and poison

And he still has points to spare in both bloodlines and magic items so your strigoi can be even harder if you want him to be. And, you can use the new half-bat to represent your monster. :D

HiveTrygon
22-03-2008, 19:58
I have not played a game yet but got my book this weekend and am so happy with the changes. I think this may be the best VC book ever IMO. Sure the good old days had some very, very tough vamps but with thie new edition there is balance along with the ability to customize and pick some very hard hitting units the VC had little of. I love the new ghouls, not overly fond of what happened to my zombies but hey I can mass more of them now even though they just give me some time before they are wasted.

I feel that some units, such as skelletons and zombies now need to be larger untis than before to last long enough for their ranks to be bolstered. So my plan is 30-40 zombies per unit rather than the 20-30 as before. Sure they are big units but if they last long enough keep adding to them something is going to get through spell wise. Dispel the raise dead, or my other bound spell (which we ave several of). The magic is so much better than before and with a cheap necromancer thrown in or on a corpse cart for protection you have a little extra raise dead punch.

Then the hard hitters, grave guard, better black knights, vargulf, and black coach. All of these are fantastic and very impressive. I'm sure the blood knights are as well but a little costly for me. I think any of these could earn their points back in combat, most notably the GG or BK with a magic banner.

I'm very impressed with what Gav did with this edition and take my hats off to him. My favorite army book to date. Thanks Gav if your reading. :D

Dranthar
23-03-2008, 04:37
I have to say that if anything, VCs have been weakened in one way - no more spamming of invoked conga-line skeletons to hit a flank and hold your unit up for ever. Now the new units are only ever zombies and they must be at least 5 models wide. They still have a role of course but they can't be spammed like they used to, which is only a good thing IMO. :D

daemonkin
26-03-2008, 09:54
Had my first 2k game on Saturday and was damn close to winning against Orcs and Goblins! My wight king challenged his general on wyvern in his first turn and was chomped by the beastie. My grave guard killing blowed him in turn 2 and I had his Orc boss quivering in his boots from my banshee! I had him routed and then...

I charged my zombies into combat with my vamp lord, grave guard and remaining dire wolves into a unit of night goblins who directed all their attacks at my zombies, beating me on combat res and my lord went down along with my entire army!

Last time I ever let zombies get into combat with my lord!

Great improvement on 6th edition but will require some getting used to but a great number of possibilities I can't wait to try.

D.

Gromdal
27-03-2008, 13:31
1. Blood dragon lord - dread knight, red fury, dread lance, accursed armour, walking death.

Level 3 mage with T6, 2+ save and 4 auto hit S7 attacks that give you more attacks when you wound.

2. Blood dragon thrall - Anything you want, flayed hauberk

2+ save

3. Wight lord - Barded nightmare, lance, whatever you want.

2+ save

4. Vampire thrall - Dread knight, whatever you want

2+ save

5. Vampire thrall - Bloody hauberk, avatar of death (hw and shield.)

2+ save



I'm sorry but i stick to my original theory, just because you cant take all blood dragons with all great weapons/ lances with 2+ save and hatred ect ect ect with 15 cheese wolves to max out your core, does not make the army less diverse.

If you tried playing with ANY other vampire bloodline you could see that only blood dragons got saves, which was ridiculous. Every single von carstein vampire comes to work in his dress robes? Nah it was stupid, and has now been sorted.

They have not removed the bloodlines, just because they haven't put it into handy little categories for you saying "combat" "magic" "psychology" and "help your army" (blood dragon, necrarch, lahmian, von carstein respectively) does not mean they have removed them. Most of the bloodlines are still there but now you can mix and match to have the vampire you really want. Removing the categories just made it better.

You can still go non magic, just because every vampire is a lvl 1 wizard does not mean you have to have more than this. In a 2k game, with just vampires, you can have only 5 levels of magic, this is not magic heavy. You can tool them all up for combat if you want.

Again, your argument of "oh teh noes!!11 they removed a ******** cavalry list with stupid core choices.." is not valid.

And to go with that, i never said you could have a "whole cavalry army" i said you have to spend 240 points on non cavalry things (a 10th of your army! shock and horror) and then you can have all the cavalry you want.


I do not like the idea of having lances on my vampires, even though its good for winning games (either you break em on charge with cav our the nr of enemy regiments will flank you). I wanted great weapons and 2+ armour save (full plate barding mount)
But it aint done there the all cav army is gone which is a great blow to the blood dragon theme.
I cannot get this anymore hence it makes me feel that the theme i thought about doing in 7th is gone.
instead all vamp armies are now identical mag hvy dependant large infantry blocks type things.

they really messed up and me (and many many more i bet) didnt roll em, so its GW loss, and in the end the hobby suffers.

Freakiq
27-03-2008, 13:36
I do not like the idea of having lances on my vampires, even though its good for winning games (either you break em on charge with cav our the nr of enemy regiments will flank you). I wanted great weapons and 2+ armour save (full plate barding mount)
But it aint done there the all cav army is gone which is a great blow to the blood dragon theme.
I cannot get this anymore hence it makes me feel that the theme i thought about doing in 7th is gone.
instead all vamp armies are now identical mag hvy dependant large infantry blocks type things.

they really messed up and me (and many many more i bet) didnt roll em, so its GW loss, and in the end the hobby suffers.

I beg to disagree, this release is amongst the most anticipated army books and it seems only people with heavily specialized armies will suffer from the changes.

Most gamers I've met were happy with the direction of the new book as it's more custimizable than the last one while still promoting balanced lists.

Gromdal
27-03-2008, 14:00
I beg to disagree, this release is amongst the most anticipated army books and it seems only people with heavily specialized armies will suffer from the changes.

Most gamers I've met were happy with the direction of the new book as it's more custimizable than the last one while still promoting balanced lists.

If you cannot see that a pure blood dragon list is alot more balanced and easier to beat than 15 pd endless ghoul horde is....

the_raptor
27-03-2008, 16:00
But it aint done there the all cav army is gone which is a great blow to the blood dragon theme.
I cannot get this anymore hence it makes me feel that the theme i thought about doing in 7th is gone.

Right, because taking 10% core at typical game sizes is crippling to Cav/elite armies.



instead all vamp armies are now identical mag hvy dependant large infantry blocks type things.

Stop lying. This is not opinion this is lying. Two power levels for lords, one for thralls, and none for wight kings, is not magic heavy. It isn't "no magic" but it is certainly not magic heavy, and it makes perfect sense for an army whose very existence depends on magic. And now you can actually take magic vampires instead of necro armies, which is a large part of why people *choose* to go magic heavy.

And yes the focus is much more on infantry blocks, because they are much more balanced and interesting to use then point and click cav or shooty armies. GW use the word "core" to describe basic infantry for a reason, they are supposed to be the core of the army. And if they haven't been previously then the rules need to change to bring this into effect. But I have seen plenty of VC army designs that don't use large blocks, or are more elite/cav focused.



they really messed up and me (and many many more i bet) didnt roll em, so its GW loss, and in the end the hobby suffers.

And plenty of new people are taking them (me included) because the list is far more diverse now, despite you having to spend a whopping 10% or so on core troops. Plus hardly anyone actually enjoys playing against one turn stunners like cav armies, so you won't be missed.

Dranthar
27-03-2008, 16:07
"I want my vampire to have 4wounds!"

"I wanted my blood dragons to all have a 2+ save with great weapons!"

Why is it that so many of these complaints crop up with the desire for specific item combinations that are no longer possible? Is theme now entirely a factor of the exact stats your models have?


If you cannot see that a pure blood dragon list is alot more balanced and easier to beat than 15 pd endless ghoul horde is....

Isn't it a little hasty to proclaim a certain build from the new VC book is now the STC for powergaming? I'd also argue that a horde of Black knights supported by 4 Blood Dragon Vampires and a pile of wolves is hardly what people have traditionally considered "balanced".

Contrary to the populist opinion you don't need masses of power dice to actually do well with 7th ed Vampire counts.

Ghouls, while handy, are not automatically better than skeletons. One relies on static combat resolution to win while the other needs to make kills. Both units have found roles in my army.

The all cavalry VC army is still there in a sense. Now you're just required to throw in a few squires on foot to bring up the rear. Seriously guys, work with what you've got!

DeathlessDraich
27-03-2008, 20:12
Had a quick look through the thread but I couldn't read through every single post.

My opinion of the new vampires

(I am not interested in debates of whether an army is stronger or weaker since I play with nearly all armies and can see strengths and weaknesses in all army lists)

1) New VC is more interesting -
a) new special abilities
b) new units

2) The vampiric powers, magic items and nature of the units seem to fit well with the vampire theme.

3) The point allocation has been reasonable. New VC has sufficient strengths and weaknesses to be on par with the other 7th ed books

4) There is a wide range of possible army themes and a range of different types of army lists and combos without compromising the strength of the army.

5) As a player who preferred TK to VC in the previous edition in terms of enjoyability, I must admit I have enjoyed playing with new VC.

unforgiven555
28-03-2008, 03:01
Well this may be premature but after 3 games i am yet to be impressed with my Vamp army.

What is your friend taking with HE? The newer edition of the army is far more about magic (it has also increased customization by greatly increasing the strength of ghouls - making them about equal to skeletons overall) and if you're avoiding this you may be running into problems. Blood knights are excellent, but unlike knights of the realm, you can't make an army based only on them (which I believe is the way it should be).
HE aren't necessarily the easiest army to face, but they are certainly manageable.

It is still possible to make a very powerful character:
Vampire Lord
Mounted on a Zombie Dragon
+1 Magic Level
Red Fury (additional attack for each unsaved wound)
Avatar of Death (HA, HW, Shield)
Dread Lance (hit automatically, + 2S)
Crown of the Damned (4+ ward save)

So you've got 4 attacks that automatically hit at s7 on the charge, allowing for additional attacks for each unsaved wound (against most targets that's going to be 4*5/6 = 20/6 + (20/6 * 5/6 = 100/36) or 220/36 = 6.1 wounds from your vampire + your zombie dragon which is 5 * 2/3 *5/6 against most targets = 25/9 = about 3. So your lord is dealing 9 wounds against MOST targets , has flying, a 4+ armour save and a 4+ ward save with the small setback of stupidity on ld 10 (failing 3/36 = 1/12 times). He's also a lvl 3 wizard. I'm pretty sure this would satisfy most herohammer advocates.

I think the more important question is what is your opponent taking? If you've lost 12 games in a row, perhaps it's time to change your strategy. Undead are mostly about magic. Yes they can make powerful characters, but 4 bolt throwers are going to deal some damage to your dragon - no matter what army you play. It's part of the game balance - this isn't 5th edition, characters can't singlehandedly win the game (thankfully).
If you're having problems with shooting try buffing up your magic phase. You'll be able to raise about 35 models on average (or 42 with corpse carts) with appropriate magic oriented powers, pretty much nullifying his magic phase. This will also help if he's utilizing alot of calvary to overrun your units. Corpse carts aren't so great against HE because of their ASF rule - they generally have higher initiative, but they can really shine for units like ghouls against other armies.

What phase(s) are you losing in? And to what units? I know as a TK player the VC are not easy to defeat.

vorac
30-03-2008, 08:55
well i played 2 games recently and won both but by the seat of my pants. here are some observations

1. Vamps are fun but still not as customisable as some believe imo
2. Black coach is much more fun but takes forever to get going
3. Vamp BSB (sword of battle,flayed hauberk,Talisman of Lycni,Dark acolyte,Creatures of the night) this guy is my mvp 4 games in a row, so far he has single handedly taken on 4 pegasus knights, 5 waywatchers,5 wildriders. he always has +1 cr moves lightning fast, increases his fell bat buddies and when he does lose by 1 cr he doesn't even lose a wound :)
4. Zombies suck oh so much, i bought a unit of 36 bossted it to around 45 charged 10 dryads and 3 turns later i didn't have a single one left and he still had 10 dryads.
5. Batswarms they suck just as bad as zombies, they can't wound anything and can't take on even weak skirmishers.
6. Graveguard with GW although nice i prefered my Graveguard with Halberds and shields
7. Magic phase.... god i hate spamming ION, i used to hate playing TK because they would cast the same spell over and over again until they got it off now i have to do it and it bores me.
8. Too many infantry i am constantly having problems in deployment because theyre are too many blocks taking up space, i would have prefered ghouls stay skirmishers but wouldn't count as minimum core like direwolves so i could have something that could manuever better.