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75hastings69
20-03-2008, 16:58
This has been bugging me for a while now so I have to post it.

I cannot understand for the life of me how GW marketing consistently **** up!!

Here are a few "SIMPLE" ideas to help sell their products...

1. Instead of putting a fistful of flyers for new products in my direct sales order packaging how about putting it in other magazines? i.e PC/Games mags? As a buyer of your product I am already aware of what is coming out, and I buy WD which is just a catalogue, YOU ARE WASTING MONEY & OPPORTUNITY sending these flyers to me!!!!

2. Want to sell some more plastic WFB Buildings? Then how about some more articles in WD about how to make some of the excellent building found in WD over the last few months!!! (e.g the VC Manor, the stuff featured in WD UK 340 - including the excellent wizard tower!). For god's sake guys the mag is full of nothing! get some hobby articles in there to back up why we should be buying this stuff!!!!!

I could think of so many more wasted opportunities.... they must have the least ideas ever for a marketing department... imagine the meetings..... "any ideas this months guys?" ..... "erm, no, can't we just keep doing what we are doing?"..... "what's that?" ........ "you know that brochure thing that you see at the trainstation newsagent".... "oh, yes".....

Bregalad
20-03-2008, 17:40
There are other examples:

1.) Dealing with the "Dark Heresy" RPG, need I say more?
2.) Dealing with indies, need I say more? Selling products that can only be bought in shops that only sell this product and advertising in magazines that only feature this product is "island mentality". Well, GW is British after all :rolleyes:
3.)"You are thirteen and like this army? Want new models? Come back when you are married!" No other company dares to do that.
4.) "Our main customer target are kids. Lets raise prices considerably two or three times a year! Every year!" :wtf:
5.) What again is "listening to the customers"? ;)

blongbling
20-03-2008, 17:57
marketing simpletons, i dont think so.

marketing at existing customers by flyers, etc...well i sure as hell know that every time i get a parcel from a company it hs flyers in there telling me about other products, why, cos they know you like it already so the chances are you will buy more stuff.

Advertise with flyers in magazines......as someone with multiple hobbies and therefore multiple magazine subs i will always jsut throw the leaflets in a magazine away.....im sure im not alone.

It is also worth noting that GW doenst have a marketing department. They have never had a customer facing marketing department, the marketing is internal supporting the staff in selling the products.

im not gonna go through and talk about all the points you mentione Gregalad, suffice to say that GW does listen to its veteran customers....maybe not all teh whining and moaning and slander that goes on in this, and other, forums but if you look at the GT's in the UK. GW actively asks for feedback, listens to them and acts up on it.....amazing that if something is presented well it might get listened to.......

Harry
20-03-2008, 18:04
@blongbling

Whilst not wishing to generalise about the vets at GTs ....

The vets at GTs only represent a tiny proportion of the vets out here.

The vets at GT's have a particular (some might say perculiar) interest in and enjoyment of the hobby.

They may have different opinions about the hobby to my own.

Where should I go to get my voice heard.

(Obviously I am not asking for myself but for the benifit of others .....
There might be some who would actually be interested in doing more than ranting on an internet forum).

gorgon
20-03-2008, 18:59
I dunno. It seems like they consider their retail stores as part of their advertising and marketing budget. Print advertising gets pretty expensive and some companies a lot larger than GW don't do it either. As an advertising professional, I can't really chastise them on that specific point without knowing their overall strategy.

However, it appears that GW has yet to show it can leverage the popularity of some of its products to boost others. Look at 40K. DoW was a highly successful PC game, and the HH books are easily the most popular fiction to come out of BL. Yet 40K sales keep dropping. Something's not adding up there. It's not only existing 40K players that are playing the PC game and reading the books. Either a lot of them aren't making the leap to the tabletop game (in which case GW should investigate why), or they are making the jump but players are leaving faster than the new ones are coming in (a problem that should also be investigated).

freddythebig
20-03-2008, 19:21
If GW really do not have an outward facing marketing function, then this would explain a lot of their current problems. Bearing in mind that proper marketing is not just about advertising but also includes making sense of sales figures and market shares by gathering and analysing customer feedback.

It is not a case of them being simpletons, more like a case of marketing being done in a half hearted manner.

Cheers.

mattieice
20-03-2008, 19:22
What I don't get is why their online store is screwed up with many options for armies missing and just sloppy organization in general. All the fantasy army options are all mixed up (core units in the character section?). How hard is it to organize your website? Also, WHY DO THEY HAVE A BITS SECTION ANYMORE? It's almost insulting to click the bits button and for them to show you the exact same product for the exact same price.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
20-03-2008, 19:23
It's an odd mentality, but one that you can see the origins of.

External Advertising costs money. Thus, any company looking at advertising has to weigh up the potential gains against the initial cost.

Clearly, in times past, it hasn't been financially very viable for GW to advertise. This has then turned into a pathological fear of it (well, not fear, but lack of will to do it perhaps) that continues to this day.

Perhaps they will chance their hand soon. Who knows?

blongbling
20-03-2008, 19:54
@harry...anymore so different than the people on this forum?

t-tauri
20-03-2008, 20:06
im not gonna go through and talk about all the points you mentione Gregalad, suffice to say that GW does listen to its veteran customers....maybe not all teh whining and moaning and slander that goes on in this, and other, forums but if you look at the GT's in the UK. GW actively asks for feedback, listens to them and acts up on it.....amazing that if something is presented well it might get listened to.......GTs get what 4-500 players at the most? All of a very specific mindset.

I've never been to a GT but I've been a customer of GW since they had one crappy shop in a London sidestreet and a magazine called Owl and Weasel. I haven't been asked for my opinion since they stopped putting surveys in WD.

This website has almost 10,000 active members. GW don't seek their opinions.

It's this complete disengagement with the fan base that baffles me. Surely a company which "actively asks for feedback, listens to them and acts up on it" should be seeking the opinion of that fanbase rather than the few hundred regular tournament gamers who go to GT?

Cenyu
20-03-2008, 20:10
Are GW marketing simpletons?

Does the Emperor sit a lot?

IJW
20-03-2008, 20:21
It's this complete disengagement with the fan base that baffles me. Surely a company which "actively asks for feedback, listens to them and acts up on it" should be seeking the opinion of that fanbase rather than the few hundred regular tournament gamers who go to GT?
Quoted for truth. :eyebrows:

reds8n
20-03-2008, 20:26
What annoys me is the wat that GW miss out on so many easy advertising oppurtunities.

For example recently in the uk it was free books for kids day. GW pulp/destroy how many copies of unsold novels or WD ? Why not give those away. On Neil gaiman's blog he had a whole post about how DC comics printed too many copies of Snadman number.. 8 (if memory serves) so some bright spark sent them out to stores and suggestted giving them away. 2 local stores in my area did this-- I went in and asked-- and both stores, and DC, reported extra sales after this.

Why are GW stores tearing the covers off of novels ( well alright, it's for tax reasons I believe) instead of giving them to local librarys ? Or hospitals ? Or even schools. My local Gw doesn't sell out of WD every month and sure enough every few months they throw out a whole pile of old issues, outdated army books etc. Twice last year I persuaded them to give at least some of these old issues to the local doctors surgeries to leave in the waiting roms, and both times within the next week customers came in as their kid had seen the magazine in the doctors and been entranced.

Hell even if it doesn't generate sales the nice publicity from donating to a school/Ormond Street/charity of the month would help. I note FW are doing another charity raffle at their open day in April-- and good for them. Where then is the big shout out for this on the website ? Or the mention in WD ?

Harry
20-03-2008, 20:29
If GW really do not have an outward facing marketing function, then this would explain a lot of their current problems. Bearing in mind that proper marketing is not just about advertising but also includes making sense of sales figures and market shares by gathering and analysing customer feedback.

It is not a case of them being simpletons, more like a case of marketing being done in a half hearted manner.
The collection and analysis of sales data is something which is soon to be addressed.


What I don't get is why their online store is screwed up with many options for armies missing and just sloppy organization in general.
This is something else they will soon be addressing. Expect a much slicker experience in the future.


@harry...anymore so different than the people on this forum?
Not sure I understand your question. We can take this to PM if you like.

I was just interested in the best avenue for folks (who actually care enough to do more than bitch and moan on an internet forum and there are many that do) to get their voices heard.

Should they take up JJ's invite and write to him regarding rules development?

Who is the best person to contact with with their ideas for White Dwarf?

Etc, Etc...

If GW does not listen to all "teh wining and moaning" on this forum what is the best approach for 'Joe collector, painter, hobbiest' (who does not attend GT's) to get his voice heard.

You understand that it is the mad collectors, painters and hobbiests that buy the most product. Not the guy that has a couple of tournament armies planned and collected to exactly the required points value.

For example: I have all the fantasy armies many in excess of 10,000 points. still collecting. Never been to a GT. Likely never will. (Although I am keen to give doubles a go one year).

Huw_Dawson
20-03-2008, 20:43
It's this complete disengagement with the fan base that baffles me. Surely a company which "actively asks for feedback, listens to them and acts up on it" should be seeking the opinion of that fanbase rather than the few hundred regular tournament gamers who go to GT?

I look at it like this. If a codex is a really good tournament codex, it does three things.

1) Normal wargamers (Ie, fluffists, once a week with a few friends over a beer or two) get a new army to play.
2) Tournament Players get a new GOOD army to play.
3) Artists (Modellers, Painters, Terrainists) get a new army to play with.

If a new army is really poor, then the only people who benefit from the codex are the artists. If it is too good, it benefits Normal Wargamers and Artists.

If it appeases the Tournament Crowd, I THINK it appeases everybody.

I know people have a certain stigma over playing models that do not have rules, but I think that if we can break this stigma, everybody will still be happy.

- Huw

t-tauri
20-03-2008, 20:47
It's not an issue with the codex. The issue is how can they claim to be seeking feedback when they only question for marketing purposes the small group of tournament gamers who attend the GT and ignore every other customer.

Harry
20-03-2008, 20:51
Huw, you know I love you but you miss the point.

I agree with what you said and no one is saying we don't want good army books to keep everyone happy.

However the 'fluffists' (Nice word , shall be using that more often in conversation) and the artists want a whole bunch of other stuff which would not even occur to the tournament player. In fact if I were to explain to them what I want they still would not understand why I want it. :D

EDIT: In the same way I can't understand, for the life of me, why anyone would want balanced lists to represent war. :D

At the moment it seems to me they are trying so hard to give some of their customers what they want that they are forgetting to give the rest of their customers what they used to give us.

TonyFlow
20-03-2008, 21:23
At the moment it seems to me they are trying so hard to give some of their customers what they want that they are forgetting to give the rest of their customers what they used to give us.

QFT!

And by the way... Aren't the "whining and moaning" perhaps exactly the people they should be listening to, since they are (i would think so at least) the ones leaving GW, and therefore also an easy taget for retention. Instead of only asking the people already satisfied how they think things are going.

Indeed seems odd, they don't use a forum like this more... I mean 10.000... Wow!

Finally a more down to earth discussion about these matters.

Rasmus

Harry
20-03-2008, 21:31
Maybe like politics they need to concentrate more on the 'swing voters'.

Political parties often argue over seemingly odd issues when there are other more important issues to talk about. This is because they are the issues which matter to 'swing voters'.
Political parties are not intrested in huge chunks of the population because they never vote ... regardless of the issues discussed. They are equally (and more suprisingly) not that interested in those who will vote for them regardless of policies ... (because they always have, because their dad did etc) because they do not need to win their votes.
They only care about 'swing voters' who might change their vote to or away from their party based on their policies on specific issues. They spend a great deal of time and money finding out who swing voters are and what the issues are which matter to them.

The other group they care about is young voters because just like a bank or insurance company new buisness is what is important ...
... if they get them early they can secure them as life long customers/voters.

There is no point wasting money trying to sell to people who will never buy toy soldiers.

There is no point wasting money trying to convince people to buy stuff who are going to buy it anyway.

Swing voters and new customers.

So GW who are your swing voters and what are the issues they care about?

DonkeyMan
20-03-2008, 21:58
I bought Dawn of War, DoW: Winter Assault and DoW: Dark Crusade and not in any of these boxes I had a GW flyer or mini catalogue inside.

That surprised me because not all DoW buyers where/are actually wargamers and think that it was a missed opportunity.

t-tauri
20-03-2008, 22:29
I bought Dawn of War, DoW: Winter Assault and DoW: Dark Crusade and not in any of these boxes I had a GW flyer or mini catalogue inside.

That surprised me because not all DoW buyers where/are actually wargamers and think that it was a missed opportunity.Soulstorm does have a double page advert in the manual. Since it's top of the PC charts though the link could have been pushed more especially in the computer magazines.

Some of the early computer games had a voucher for a free mini IIRC which could be redeemed by going into a GW or contacting mail order. They could have used that idea again.

Billpete002
20-03-2008, 22:42
what i found amazing was Wargames/Field of Glory has a poll up (every week) to ask gamers what they want and who ever wins the vote that item will be produced. They also have insanely good customer services - unlike GW who doesn't seem to have a public email (as far as I know) - and if they do it isn't right there out in the open for people to see it!

Anyway I contacted FoG about wallpapers and within literally 1 hour I had a reply of "good idea, what screen sizes do you want?"
They are now working on making wallpapers - now how cool is that? but I figured some people would say GW has wallpapers etc. etc. well I emailed FW and CALLED GW and asked "Hey I know you have some wallpapers on your sites and was wondering if you guys could make some for Vampire Counts, Dwarfs, and other races/games that you haven't made wallpapers for yet?"

FW never replied to my Email. GW rep gave me a contact email for someone I might be able to get ahold of. I emailed him - asked the same question and said I liked what they were doing and their product, but some new wallpapers would be great.

Didn't get a reply for 8-9 weeks, frankly when I got the reply I had totally lost hope and forgotten about it! Email back was something to the effect of: "I will see what the others say and get back to you"

needless to say he never did, and I figured as much since anyone who says that never will. SO I emailed him back - and I have tried calling/emailing about this for 2 years now...

So while this might not be "advertisement" or getting money for the company it leaves a good or bad "taste in your mouth" when a new company gets it on the ball and supplies people with what they are looking for (OR even give an honest answer (if the FoG guy or GW rep said 'no' I would have left it at that!)) while GW and FW can't even get back to me after 2 years of pestering - and this isn't mean spirited pestering just a guy who's spent a lot of money on this and would like some wallpapers of artwork from their books all they gotta do is put it on their site!

blongbling
20-03-2008, 23:03
i can understand why GW doesnt have an email, they would get so many email as it would take a full time person just to keep up with them......

blongbling
20-03-2008, 23:05
what i found amazing was Wargames/Field of Glory has a poll up (every week) to ask gamers what they want and who ever wins the vote that item will be produced. They also have insanely good customer services - unlike GW who doesn't seem to have a public email (as far as I know) - and if they do it isn't right there out in the open for people to see it!

isnt that a bit unfair, comparing a small company that can produce models due to customer wants on a monthly basis and the largest TTWG manufacturer in the world?

75hastings69
20-03-2008, 23:16
I really enjoy my hobby, but just feel like no-one is listening to me......

I called about the buildings I saw in WD, and the guy totally missed my point and instead went into some kind of autopilot "the new Daemons are teh win!!" I am a 33 year old man, not some nine year old kid... (BTW no offence any nine year old who may be reading).

Harry
20-03-2008, 23:19
Thing is, most nine year olds would be annoyed as well if they phoned up about something specific and got that.

Their kids not retarded.

Something I have learned since being on this forum. Many of the youngsters involved in this hobby are remarkably bright and remarkably mature. You can't talk down to individuals like that.

Billpete002
20-03-2008, 23:54
i can understand why GW doesnt have an email, they would get so many email as it would take a full time person just to keep up with them......

All the more reason they should! frankly they should have 5 guys working full time or 10! they are a large company thus they must meet the customer demands. This is why so many smaller companies are doing great now-a-days (warmachine, at-43, and confrontation to name a few) are picking up speed while GW flops around like a trout out of water on pointless articles (the 25 year "best model" thing on their website is a great example of 'we aren't going to listen to the people till after we have selected the bunch they can vote for'!)


isnt that a bit unfair, comparing a small company that can produce models due to customer wants on a monthly basis and the largest TTWG manufacturer in the world?

I think its completely the opposite, if you have the money, the player base, and the resources you should be MORE mindful of what your players want. Frankly I miss polls and emailing GW or Dirty Steve.

I think they have really dug themselves a good hole and I admit they are trying to find a way out of a lot of the messes they've gotten themselves into (like banking on LoTR with no long term knowledge or planning that sales WILL drop when the movies end!) One thing they keep failing at is marketing - If I go on their site I want forums easily accessible, I want emails of people, and I want more competitive prices (namely for startup costs - GW is terrible and daunting for a newbie to startup money wise).

I'm not saying FoG is perfect but if you open a company and plan to be in services towards the public you better damn well have a great customer service team.

Brimweave
21-03-2008, 00:09
GW need to advertise more. A store is not good enough advertising. I rember before I liked 40k I used to walk past the shop thinking "What a bunch of geeks, I am not going in there". It was only when my friend let me have a go I got into 40k.

GW need more adverts in magazines, get movie deals and such.

bringerofdecay
21-03-2008, 00:36
GW as a company aren't, no, if they were they wouldn't have got thus far, their major investors are however, they have no idea how to run a compnay based around a hobby (iirc the biggest share holder is barclays and running a bank is an entirely different kettle of fish). i have to say the becomming a PLC was one of their biggest mistakes, yet also may well end up as one of their biggest saviours (afaik they became a PLC to afford to buy the rights to LoTR a game which now provided in the region of 15% of their income/profits, 5% more than fantasy)

Bregalad
21-03-2008, 00:54
"Finally I dared to go into a GW store. You sell 40k, right? Can I have the PC game?"
"No."
"Alright, the novels then?"
"No."
"The 40k Roleplay game then"
"No, and it is discontinued a week after release and now done by someone else"
"Weird! Can you give me the URL of the GW Forum so that I can suggest selling all your 40k stuff in your stores?"
"There is none. Closed because of too much complaining.":wtf:

Tabletop games need explaining and demos, so kids see what this is all about. They need advertising. Selling a LOTR magazine with one sprue per issue was a good marketing strategy, that brought many new kids to GW. They should do this again with 40k or Mordheim or Bloodbowl. Or sell Warhammer Quest/Space Hulk as a boardgame in normal toy stores. Or do an interne tforum. Or ... anything!

(But not giving Warhammer and 40k novels to children:
"Dad, why has this woman 4 breasts?""Mom, what are piles of mutilated bodies?";) )

Billpete002
21-03-2008, 00:56
true LoTR brings in more $$ then fantasy and 40k, but if you read their press releases they even admitted they didn't expect their stocks to fall so much when the movies ended - if they had marketing or economists in their midst (and listened to them) perhaps they could have softened the landing or used their $$$ more wisely.

all I am saying is there are a lot of things lacking at GW and if they don't do serious reforms they will be in a heap of trouble down the road.

Crazy Harborc
21-03-2008, 01:16
Over the past 3-4 years I did e-mail GW on several (4 times) occasions. I got one answer. The answer appeared to be written at a 11 to 12 year old level. Misspelled words, poor word choices and sentence structure. Mine had not been. The impression I was left with?..........The adults were busy and somebodie's child answered for dad/mom.

By the by....my e-mail's topic was not answered, it was ignored. It was not a rant.

lanrak
21-03-2008, 01:26
HI.
Just to point out , GW are ALREADY in a heap of trouble.

Falling sales , disgrunteled existing customers, thier target demographic, (teen age boys, ) are being drawn away to 'faster result hobbies'- PC games etc.

GW have ignored /shunned veteran players and indi stores , so they just leave GW behind.
And GW have implemented price hikes to compensate for falling sales,(:wtf:)and this has disuaded new players from starting up...

GW combat the fast changing world by continuing to do what they have always done ,irrspective of effectiveness or efficiency of thier actions.
GWs dinosaur like reactions, may leads to extinction!

thinkerman
21-03-2008, 02:12
I wouldnt say GW are Marketing simpletons, i didnt even think they had a marketing department after all WD is the monthly catalogue for advertising.

No seriously there are many faws in the GW marketing dept and plan. Heres a couple of thoughts which i feel would help out

- Maybe taking a page from the past and looking to produce boxed games to get into the likes of Toysrus, Argos, Walmart, tesco's etc would be good and bring in new gamers and people to the hobby. the do TV adverts for the games: something on the lines of Heroquest and Space crusade??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uozIWK51x58 - space crusade

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZXuoNO5UUE&feature=related - heroquest

Yes you may want to modernise them but there still cool even today

- Perhapse re issuing the Lord of the rings magazine again might help generate additional profit but this time round have a proper plan for it all.


- What would be really cool is to have some sort of webisode each week or two from GW, have a friendly face we can all like who would let us know about new news, keep us upto date with events, do reports on things happening in store or sneak peaks at stuff, tour of the design studio, production facilities, forgeworld, meeting the designers and artists etc???

This would be so easy to set up, a webcam, a friendly guy and a webpage - maybe its worth exploring??????

Darkson
21-03-2008, 02:41
marketing simpletons, i dont think so.

marketing at existing customers by flyers, etc...well i sure as hell know that every time i get a parcel from a company it hs flyers in there telling me about other products, why, cos they know you like it already so the chances are you will buy more stuff.

Advertise with flyers in magazines......as someone with multiple hobbies and therefore multiple magazine subs i will always jsut throw the leaflets in a magazine away.....im sure im not alone.

It is also worth noting that GW doenst have a marketing department. They have never had a customer facing marketing department, the marketing is internal supporting the staff in selling the products.

im not gonna go through and talk about all the points you mentione Gregalad, suffice to say that GW does listen to its veteran customers....maybe not all teh whining and moaning and slander that goes on in this, and other, forums but if you look at the GT's in the UK. GW actively asks for feedback, listens to them and acts up on it.....amazing that if something is presented well it might get listened to.......

Well I do a gree with much of what you said, I take a little umbrage at your GT quote.

They listen to "SOME" GT goers. The BB GT is notorious for having bad feedback (though credit where credits due, it's getting better). For a start, when you've attended the BB GT, to be asked on the questionaire what your next WFB and 40K army is going to be, and no mention of BB, you're not going to get a great response.:rolleyes:

blongbling
21-03-2008, 11:25
I'm liking this thread as its full of sensible arguements for once so ill chip in again.

Gw is going through change, both internally and through what it is doing and that ican be seen be everyone, little things are happening and being commented on by people in these forums....that shows us GW is reacting. I think that you need to also bear in mind GW is a wide spread, medium sized company with several thousand employees, turning something that quick will take a little longer than a small ten man band.

I will go back to the point that hs been mentioned about email. I cant see why GW would want to do that. Everyone has an opinion on what GW should do and also how to do it. That email would become a huge black hole for all the rants, issues, ideas, etc and would become a soul destroying job, or become a role that sends out a standard letter to everyone who emails.

People welcome with nostalgia the "old GW", well as someone who has been gaming with GW for 22 years, i dont look back with nostalgia. I remember the prices being high, for me as a kid to get into it, i remember buying stuff and not knowing what to do with it cos noone could show me and i remember talking to some very nice people in the Troll pen who helped me out a lot....i wonder that all this talk of "GW being for the gamers by the gamers" is pleasant nostalgia? i see it mentioned that GW used to make a loss on products sold, im sorry that is absolute rubbish, i see is mentioned that GW listens to its shareholders and that run the company. I would challenge you to go and ask senior GW managers what they say, GW is run and managed by hobbyists, ,not the directions of the shareholders (as someome said GW aint a bank). Of course there are questions, what are you doing? etc but GW steers its own ship, go and ask. Was it becoming a Plc the worst thing ever, no! Wargaming would still be a super niche, cottage industry if GW hadnt have been given a cash injection that allowed them to open more stores, expand its facilities and build a brand.

Its quite clear that I am a GW fanboy but i also like to look on things impartially and objectively and i can still see that GW is holding true to its strategy, the fact that its shareholders are still there also tells me a lot.......cant we all just get along together :P

let the ranting begin :)

Templar Ben
21-03-2008, 13:00
It is also worth noting that GW doenst have a marketing department. They have never had a customer facing marketing department, the marketing is internal supporting the staff in selling the products.

That does speak volumes.


I'm liking this thread as its full of sensible arguements for once so ill chip in again.

Gw is going through change, both internally and through what it is doing and that ican be seen be everyone, little things are happening and being commented on by people in these forums....that shows us GW is reacting. I think that you need to also bear in mind GW is a wide spread, medium sized company with several thousand employees, turning something that quick will take a little longer than a small ten man band.

I will go back to the point that hs been mentioned about email. I cant see why GW would want to do that. Everyone has an opinion on what GW should do and also how to do it. That email would become a huge black hole for all the rants, issues, ideas, etc and would become a soul destroying job, or become a role that sends out a standard letter to everyone who emails.

People welcome with nostalgia the "old GW", well as someone who has been gaming with GW for 22 years, i dont look back with nostalgia. I remember the prices being high, for me as a kid to get into it, i remember buying stuff and not knowing what to do with it cos noone could show me and i remember talking to some very nice people in the Troll pen who helped me out a lot....i wonder that all this talk of "GW being for the gamers by the gamers" is pleasant nostalgia? i see it mentioned that GW used to make a loss on products sold, im sorry that is absolute rubbish, i see is mentioned that GW listens to its shareholders and that run the company. I would challenge you to go and ask senior GW managers what they say, GW is run and managed by hobbyists, ,not the directions of the shareholders (as someome said GW aint a bank). Of course there are questions, what are you doing? etc but GW steers its own ship, go and ask. Was it becoming a Plc the worst thing ever, no! Wargaming would still be a super niche, cottage industry if GW hadnt have been given a cash injection that allowed them to open more stores, expand its facilities and build a brand.

Its quite clear that I am a GW fanboy but i also like to look on things impartially and objectively and i can still see that GW is holding true to its strategy, the fact that its shareholders are still there also tells me a lot.......cant we all just get along together :P

let the ranting begin :)

I will address the PLC issues later but I see the email being a way to talk to customers. It could be separate from a "suggestion box" which could be where people go and throw out ideas. Even if they are not acted on, it would have the same effect as a suggestion box at a work site. Communication is the key to how that is viewed.

Chaos and Evil
21-03-2008, 13:13
So GW who are your swing voters and what are the issues they care about?

GW 'swing voters', IMHO:

- Teenagers who are getting out of the hobby ~14

- Adults who wargame.

Of the two, the former outnumbers the latter by orders of magnitude.

Harry
21-03-2008, 13:27
@blongbling

No rants from me.:D

The problem with forums is folks are (mostly) talking from positions of ignorance.

As a result you get a lot of nonsence talked about ....

Why Andy Chambers left, how badly GW is doing, the reasons for this, who is making the decisions, the reasons for those decisions.

Very few people here actually KNOW the answers to these.

Folks don't talk to the managers as you suggest. Instead they cling on to the tiny scraps of information they can glean from the internet. They read fact into the 'numbers' they see reported without fully understanding the truth behind the numbers.
They worry for the future of the hobby they love and cling on to some nostalgic, rose coloured vision of the past because it gives them comfort to do so. They howl at the gods ('Higher ups') in their need to find someone to blame for all that is wrong in the hobby world.

Games workshop does listen. But they don't listen to everyone and even if they did they can not be all things to all people.

Games workshop is changing. They are dragging themselves kicking and screaming into the 21st century and change is always hard.

Many of the issues that folks are most upset about are being addressed even as we speak but as you say GW is not a rowing boat she is the Titanic and she does not turn on a sixpence. It will take a bit longer for all that has changed and is changing to be evident.

Nostalgia aint what it used to be. In the early days it was easy to keep us happy as nothing existed. Each new army book was a wealth of information we had not seen before and we lapped up every word every detail. Each new range of mini's a delight as it brought to life something which before was only imagined. (even if we could not afford it at the time:D) There was no previous version of either to compare it with and find fault. No one gave a monkeys about balance as there was no Tournament scene and we didn't care if we won or lost because we were just so happy to be playing mass fantasy battles.

Those were the days. :D However, they are gone and we can never have them back.

However, if GW listen to the fluff hounds they will tell you their excitement and enthusiasm for ever more detail in background has not diminished. (The High Elf and VC books were better than the Orcs and Goblins in this respect but still much is, out of necessity, re-written, re-hashed not taking things futher, or in greater depth than they did last time).
If GW talk to the collectors and painters they will tell you that they are more excited by a hand full of metal characters than a boat load of plastic. (The vampires are nice but they want fifteen to choose from and convert not five ... More like the Goblins heroes).
If GW talk to the hobbiests they want to see far more about how to create the remarkable scenic effects produced by the genius that is Games Workshop's hobby team.
And if GW talk to almost anyone in the hobby, young or old, they will tell you that they want you to and pitch the level of the hobby in general a little higher rather than catering to lowest common denominator.

Oh, and Andy Chambers dropped the ball.

Harry
21-03-2008, 13:55
GW 'swing voters', IMHO:

- Teenagers who are getting out of the hobby ~14

- Adults who wargame.

Of the two, the former outnumbers the latter by orders of magnitude.
Agreed.

Teenagers will always leave the hobby around this age as they discover girls and beer!:D I know I did.

You are never going to compete with either.

So the trick for GW is that they give the younger teenager a good enough experience so that once they realise that girls and beer come and go but toy soldiers will be there forever. They return to the hobby :D

Where do you think the "Adults who wargame" come from?

Huw_Dawson
21-03-2008, 14:36
I think I get what you mean, Harry.

With the new VC release, they only appear to have 6 Vampire Models. I think it is reasonable to say that artists want a lot more models. Dwarves have nearly 30! Fluffists want their new book to have more fluff, and possibly more rules, than last edition.

So, I'll add to my statement.

1) Normal wargamers (Ie, fluffists, once a week with a few friends over a beer or two) get a new army to play, with some more things to play with and some more things to read.
2) Tournament Players get a new GOOD army to play, with more angles than previous books have.
3) Artists (Modellers, Painters, Terrainists) get a new army to play with, with a lot more shiny models than before.

If these three groups all get what they want, the marketing of the book is sucessful - the book sells itself as everybody who is interested in the army goes out and buys it.

If the fluffist can't connect with the book through a lack of change or a lack of rules, they won't be going to buy it.
If the Tournament Player thinks the army is too weak, they won't buy the army. If it is too strong, they might throw their hands up in dispair and quit.
If an Artist has not enough new models to buy, he won't be buying them.

As such, Marketing at GW is actually a lot about Quality Control.

- Huw

PS: They still have the old Vampires up on the Classics and Collectibles link, but thats still not good enough for some people who want new ones.

TonyFlow
21-03-2008, 14:50
I'm liking this thread as its full of sensible arguements for once so ill chip in again.

i wonder that all this talk of "GW being for the gamers by the gamers" is pleasant nostalgia? i see it mentioned that GW used to make a loss on products sold, im sorry that is absolute rubbish, i see is mentioned that GW listens to its shareholders and that run the company. I would challenge you to go and ask senior GW managers what they say, GW is run and managed by hobbyists, ,not the directions of the shareholders (as someome said GW aint a bank).

let the ranting begin :)

Here is my rant (hoping to keep it sensible).

There is a worlds difference between not being PLC and being one. The shareholders bought their shares for one reason only, and that is to make more money. So this is of course passed on to the people in charge of GW's daily business. Unlike before, they now have a group of shareholders behind them whipping them forward: "Expand expand, make MORE money MORE!!!"
So what do they do? They go after the easiest target available... the kids. Problem is, they are not the only ones hunting this easy target. So 1: They are not so easy anymore 2: They forget the rest of their customers in the hunt for short term profit.
It SEEMS that all they do is targeted at minimizing costs, and get new customers... As i see it, very little is done to raise retention of existing customers.

Sorry but i do have a lot against PLC's in general... i think it is one of the worst concepts in this world of ours... Quality means nothing, profit means everything!
So i might have a biased view on this :o

blongbling
21-03-2008, 15:04
tonyflow - expansion doesnt mean more money.......if that was truely the case with the GW investors thay would have bailed by now as they havent had a dividend in the last two periods.....

retention of older customers, it is my impression that GW is heavliy invovled with the GCN and the setting up of clubs. Dont they advertise these clubs every month in WD? Retnetion of gamers seems tobe there, hell dont they run school leagues, keeping teh guys invovled that have jsut started....????

Harry
21-03-2008, 15:23
The vast majority of GW customers do not go to GT's, are not members of GCN clubs or even involved in school leagues.

The existence of these has little to do with customer retention.

Honest.

TonyFlow
21-03-2008, 16:28
tonyflow - expansion doesnt mean more money.......if that was truely the case with the GW investors thay would have bailed by now as they havent had a dividend in the last two periods.....

retention of older customers, it is my impression that GW is heavliy invovled with the GCN and the setting up of clubs. Dont they advertise these clubs every month in WD? Retnetion of gamers seems tobe there, hell dont they run school leagues, keeping teh guys invovled that have jsut started....????

Ok, poor choice of words, but I think you know what i mean.

I don't know what the advertise in WD, i don't read it. It would seem to me, that these initiatives are worth the most to people who happens to have been born in UK... Am i wrong? I have stepped foot in a GW twice in my life. The store that had GW products in my town was a bookstore that only gave minimum space to these products (still only has this one place in that town).
So to the majority of gamers it is quite worthless that they use the GW stores as their prime medium of communication.

I am by no means an expert, but it really seems that GW bet on the wrong horse by targeting the kiddies (and the short term profit), and they are now getting punished because they didn't do anything to retain them.
I think they are now slowly seeing "teh TRUTH" (tm), but it seems they are stuck in the mud.

Chaos and Evil
22-03-2008, 13:24
Agreed.

Teenagers will always leave the hobby around this age as they discover girls and beer!:D I know I did.

Same!

GW is well aware of this trend, of course.


So the trick for GW is that they give the younger teenager a good enough experience so that once they realise that girls and beer come and go but toy soldiers will be there forever. They return to the hobby :D

Giving them (The core market) the impression that GW gaming can also be an 'adult' hobby while they are gaming as tweens/young teens should also form an important part of the hobby presentation IMHO (And it is, for example most of the pictures in White Dwarf show adults wargaming, rather than kids), so that when the new adult remembers the existence of GW gaming in his early 20's, he remembers it not simply as a game that kids play, but also that adults are interested too.


Where do you think the "Adults who wargame" come from?

'Adults who wargame'*** fall into two very broad categories I reckon:

1 - Adults who quit GW aged ~14, and came back in their early twenties.

2 - Adults who onced played GW games (At whatever age), but now play games from other manufacturers. Many of these at least appear to be former catagory 1's.

Yeah there are gamers who have never found GW's games to be appealing, and have never played a GW game, but they are in the minority of the minority, IMHO; The wargaming market is dominated by games that borrow from GW's style, or game mechanics (I'm looking at you, Flames of War)


GW's challenge when approaching each type is different:


For type 1's, GW has normally planted a seed of 'GW gaming is teh cool!' in them years before, and frankly can't do much more than it is currently for these gamers. This 'seed' is planted during the person's time as a 'core' gamer, so the current direction (Make painting easier with Foundation paints, make starter sets cooler) of the company should plant this seed well.


For type 2's, well, they want an 'advanced' wargame (Or at least think they do... in my experience most of them 'just' want to-hit modifiers and maybe overwatch). It's not (In my opinion) financially viable to produce an 'advanced' patch for the various core games (Except *perhaps* in the case of LOTR, where i believe there is room for some cool 'side games' at the least), so GW is relegated to modifying the core game engine (Which can't be done quickly or extensively due to legacy issues).

But yeah, the way to entice type 2's back is to give them more suitable / challenging rules to game with, IMHO.



Whether it is worth focusing specific financial effort onto regaining such gamers is debatable, of couse...




The vast majority of GW customers do not go to GT's, are not members of GCN clubs or even involved in school leagues.

The existence of these has little to do with customer retention.

Honest.

Firmly agreed.


Many of the issues that folks are most upset about are being addressed even as we speak but as you say GW is not a rowing boat she is the Titanic and she does not turn on a sixpence. It will take a bit longer for all that has changed and is changing to be evident.

That's near word-for-word something a chap named Jervis told me last year. :)

Changes are coming, and we (The customers) probably won't be able to see those changes until they have arrived.



Andy Chambers dropped the ball.

No comment.



*** Assuming that most 'adults who wargame' are actually interested in 'wargaming' rather than 'collecting'!

fwacho
26-03-2008, 07:45
When I wrote my book (yes, I'm a published author) I discovered the importance of marketing. It didn't matter that I worte a great book. It didn't sell because know one knew about it, and my publishign company didn't want to spend any money on advertising it. It doesnts matter how good a product is (or isn't), if you don't advertise it won't sell. GW needs to spread out it's marketing. It need to look at getting it's stater boxes inot eery store it can and then advertise them so they will sell ( be it late night TV, comic books,magazines, newpapers, online book stores, video game mags) they've got to t get teh word out. and even if the product isn't that great they will at least sell.


"girls and beer come and go but toy soldiers will be there forever." Dang that's a great quote.

Kordos
26-03-2008, 08:17
Harry - you keep on saying GW are changing but is there any time frame ? one example is the Australian GW website - http://oz.games-workshop.com/news/news.htm
It has been in 'revamp' stage for almost a year now - one GW store worker assured me late last year that it had been updated (based of info he had received from above) and was on par with the uk and us websites - suffice to say he was pretty shocked when he was found wrong.

TonyFlow
26-03-2008, 08:55
GW would come a long way i think, if they just did a better job communicating.
No one ever seems to know exactly what they are up to, until something is released. For example the bits ordering now seems to be coming back (at least some of it), but nobody knows how, what and when!
Is it because they themselves don't have any plans whatsoever, or do they think people love not knowing how, what and when about ANYTHING they do. On the GW UK website they still have a link to "collectors and classics"... a blank page. And armybooks/codecies, maybe it would be a good idea to announce the list of books to come, so people aren't busy complaining that their army never gets updated...
They don't need to tell us the plans for the next 10 years, just a little more open than they are now... seems staffmembers don't even know what's going on.
If people knew why and how GW makes changes/publications/whatever i am sure people would be more understanding and not rant so much on the internet about how much GW sucks.

grickherder
26-03-2008, 09:17
"girls and beer come and go but toy soldiers will be there forever." Dang that's a great quote.

Totally. And there's nothing about toy soldiers or beer that makes them mutally exclusive. And if you find a non-superficial girl that respects the hobbies and interests of their partner, there's nothing mutually exclusive there either.

Harry
26-03-2008, 09:37
Harry - you keep on saying GW are changing but is there any time frame ? one example is the Australian GW website - http://oz.games-workshop.com/news/news.htm
It has been in 'revamp' stage for almost a year now - one GW store worker assured me late last year that it had been updated (based of info he had received from above) and was on par with the uk and us websites - suffice to say he was pretty shocked when he was found wrong.
Lots of things have already changed. Lots more stuff is going to change it is just not very easy to see the results of the changes that have been made from the outside looking in.
The improvements to ALL the websites is one change which IS coming that will be visible.
I can't help you much with time scale but things are happening already .... honest.



GW would come a long way i think, if they just did a better job communicating.
No one ever seems to know exactly what they are up to, until something is released. For example the bits ordering now seems to be coming back (at least some of it), but nobody knows how, what and when!
Is it because they themselves don't have any plans whatsoever, or do they think people love not knowing how, what and when about ANYTHING they do. On the GW UK website they still have a link to "collectors and classics"... a blank page. And armybooks/codecies, maybe it would be a good idea to announce the list of books to come, so people aren't busy complaining that their army never gets updated...
They don't need to tell us the plans for the next 10 years, just a little more open than they are now... seems staffmembers don't even know what's going on.
If people knew why and how GW makes changes/publications/whatever i am sure people would be more understanding and not rant so much on the internet about how much GW sucks.
I don't understand why GW customers feel the need (or that they have the right) to know everything GW is doing behind the scenes. Do other companies feel the need to explain all their business plans or do they just get on and do it. I see other companies making changes to there websites and products all the time. Do they do it in consultation with their customer base or do they just do what they gotta do?

The other thing you need to remember is only a tiny % of GW customers are, in fact, 'ranting on the internet'. The vast majority are happily going into stores (or other outlets) and choosing from whats 'on the shelves'. They don't hang out here, they don't read rumours (the first they know about it is when they read about it in White Dwarf or see it on the shelves) and they don't care what GW is doing as a business! All they care about is that the books, the artwork, the miniatures for their favorite armies just seem to keep on getting better and better. They don't care what GW plans are for the next ten months never mind the next 10 years.

It is planned. People do know what is going on. The people that need to know. The people that don't need to know ... don't know.
Is this not always the way of things?

Having said that. I hear what your saying and your right ... it wouldn't hurt to be a bit better at communicating.
I think they are warming up to that fact and I think that is something else you will see change over the coming months.

TonyFlow
26-03-2008, 10:10
Quote: "I don't understand why GW customers feel the need (or that they have the right) to know everything GW is doing behind the scenes. Do other companies feel the need to explain all their business plans or do they just get on and do it. I see other companies making changes to there websites and products all the time. Do they do it in consultation with their customer base or do they just do what they gotta do?

The other thing you need to remember is only a tiny % of GW customers are, in fact, 'ranting on the internet'. The vast majority are happily going into stores (or other outlets) and choosing from whats 'on the shelves'. They don't hang out here, they don't read rumours (the first they know about it is when they read about it in White Dwarf or see it on the shelves) and they don't care what GW is doing as a business! All they care about is that the books, the artwork, the miniatures for their favorite armies just seem to keep on getting better and better. They don't care what GW plans are for the next ten months never mind the next 10 years.

It is planned. People do know what is going on. The people that need to know. The people that don't need to know ... don't know.
Is this not always the way of things?

Having said that. I hear what your saying and your right ... it wouldn't hurt to be a bit better at communicating.
I think they are warming up to that fact and I think that is something else you will see change over the coming months."

I understand what you are saying, and i didn't mean that i want GW to reveal EVERYTHING. Of course, that would just be absurd.
But i think it is a problem, when you cannot get a consistent message from GW staffers in the stores fx. In one store you will hear one thing and in another you will hear a second (only judging from the posts in here, seems that way, correct me if i am wrong).
I also think it is a problem when they remove the bits service from their website and leave a blank page in the "collectors and classics".

The way GW runs their business is NOT always the way of things. Almost ALL other companies are very careful to make sure there is consistency, and a red line in their products and marketing... Maybe GW indeed has a plan, but they act like CIA. It seems we mustn't even know that there is a plan. From the outside it all looks so random!
I know that is exaggerated. Take it with a grain of salt, and you will know what i mean.

silverstu
26-03-2008, 10:33
Sounds like GW could really do with a marketing team- co-ordinate products/releases and cross-over appeal and importantly get an understanding of their customer base.As other posters pointed out there are different wants and needs across the base. But change takes time- larger companies tend to be slower to react and implement change than smaller companies as they have larger more rigid systems in place.
I hope they do release boxed games with a broader appeal- like spacehulk- I could definately see some of my friends coming round for a game of spacehulk who would be put off by a full wargame- and then perhaps might start playing once the dice fear has gone! Hopefully we will start to see the changes Harry is talking about soonish- i definately get the feeling things are changing with the recent releases so I'm fairly hopeful. On the point of communicating to GW some sort of monthly poll/questionaire would be good with perhaps a comment box at the end would be useful. GW would have stats to look at rather than a vast pile of individual emails.
Just my few thoughts.

Harry
26-03-2008, 11:42
Quote: "I don't understand why GW customers feel the need (or that they have the right) to know everything GW is doing behind the scenes. Do other companies feel the need to explain all their business plans or do they just get on and do it. I see other companies making changes to there websites and products all the time. Do they do it in consultation with their customer base or do they just do what they gotta do?

The other thing you need to remember is only a tiny % of GW customers are, in fact, 'ranting on the internet'. The vast majority are happily going into stores (or other outlets) and choosing from whats 'on the shelves'. They don't hang out here, they don't read rumours (the first they know about it is when they read about it in White Dwarf or see it on the shelves) and they don't care what GW is doing as a business! All they care about is that the books, the artwork, the miniatures for their favorite armies just seem to keep on getting better and better. They don't care what GW plans are for the next ten months never mind the next 10 years.

It is planned. People do know what is going on. The people that need to know. The people that don't need to know ... don't know.
Is this not always the way of things?

Having said that. I hear what your saying and your right ... it wouldn't hurt to be a bit better at communicating.
I think they are warming up to that fact and I think that is something else you will see change over the coming months."

I understand what you are saying, and i didn't mean that i want GW to reveal EVERYTHING. Of course, that would just be absurd.
But i think it is a problem, when you cannot get a consistent message from GW staffers in the stores fx. In one store you will hear one thing and in another you will hear a second (only judging from the posts in here, seems that way, correct me if i am wrong).
I also think it is a problem when they remove the bits service from their website and leave a blank page in the "collectors and classics".

The way GW runs their business is NOT always the way of things. Almost ALL other companies are very careful to make sure there is consistency, and a red line in their products and marketing... Maybe GW indeed has a plan, but they act like CIA. It seems we mustn't even know that there is a plan. From the outside it all looks so random!
I know that is exaggerated. Take it with a grain of salt, and you will know what i mean.
GW can not stop individual staffers from spouting nonsence when they have no idea what they are talking about rather than simply saying "I am sorry I have no idea what I am talking about!" Although I can see it would be more helpful if they instructed all the staffers to say the same thing when asked a question. For example: "The bits service? Oh there are big changes going on there. Just you wait and see ..." but then on the other hand can you imagine the length of the 'crib sheet' they would have to issue to each and every staffer to read and learn to cover ALL the questions they might be asked in a given month. I guess it is just easier to say nothing. Tell evryone to say "no comment", hope they do and get on with actually changing things rather than take up lots of time trying to keep the world and his wife informed at every step of the process.

I just went to the CIA website for a laugh. I couldn't find a thing about any ongoing operations :D Joking aside there site is considerably more informative about what they are up to than GW's ... so maybe you have a point!


Sounds like GW could really do with a marketing team- co-ordinate products/releases and cross-over appeal and importantly get an understanding of their customer base.As other posters pointed out there are different wants and needs across the base. But change takes time- larger companies tend to be slower to react and implement change than smaller companies as they have larger more rigid systems in place.
I hope they do release boxed games with a broader appeal- like spacehulk- I could definately see some of my friends coming round for a game of spacehulk who would be put off by a full wargame- and then perhaps might start playing once the dice fear has gone! Hopefully we will start to see the changes Harry is talking about soonish- i definately get the feeling things are changing with the recent releases so I'm fairly hopeful. On the point of communicating to GW some sort of monthly poll/questionaire would be good with perhaps a comment box at the end would be useful. GW would have stats to look at rather than a vast pile of individual emails.
Just my few thoughts.


They would still only have the stats of the opinions of tiny % of their customers. They don't need to know what a few of us think.
The internet already provides them with this sort of information. :D

What they need is a system that records where and when every single bit of plastic and metal is sold ... all over the globe.

Once it is in place they need to use it to inform future planning.

EDIT: Actually they do still need some other info as well as this quantitative information if they are to learn some of the WHY's as well as the where's and whens. They also need to ask some 'WHAT IF' questions as well ... so maybe you have a point as well Stu. :D

TonyFlow
26-03-2008, 11:52
Simple staff training and a monthly "inside magazine", should be enough to keep staffers from saying different things different places. If you go to any clothes shop they will be able to tell you exactly when the next collection is out and when they will have a sale on the current collection etc. I know that it is probably simplified. But GW doesn't seem to understand that they should be more open...
All i want is that they AT LEAST could just have explained that there are many changes in the time to come, explain why the bits, collectors and classics are gone, instead of a deafening silence from their part. I really don't think it is much to ask, and any decent marketing department should see to this.
Sometimes i do suspect them of being marketing simpletons...
I hope in a year from now, i will be going "Ahhhhh... THAT'S why! Why didn't they just say so???"

Harry
26-03-2008, 12:04
They have this sort of information and an "inside magazine" already ... it even has photos even. They are just not showing it to you.
Try asking them nicely. :D
Managers have detailed release lists for months in advance ... sometimes folks post stuff from them on this very site.
I guess they try and 'play their cards close to their chest' to try not to detract from the current releases too much. I don't know enough about business to know if this is sensible or not. Does a car manufacturer announce they have a new model coming out 12 months before it's release? Does this impact on the sales of the existing models out there. I don't know.

I am fairly sure the knowledge that a new tasty meat pie was coming out in six months would not stop me from buying today's special at Mrs Miggins pie shop! :D (I am not sure how helpful that is to the current debate. :D)

TonyFlow
26-03-2008, 12:44
The difference is that the new car, that comes out 12 months from now, has no influence on how your newly bought car functions.
I don't know much about cars, but don't they normally have a show, where they show soon to come cars?
Sometimes it seems GW is afraid someone will steal their ideas or something, or that people will stop buying anything if they had just a minimum of info.
All i want is an "It's ALL going to be OKAY!":cries: And then maybe present me with a proof or two that they have it all planned... Is that too much to ask? And shouldn't they be doing this already?

Cheers
Rasmus

Lucifer216
26-03-2008, 13:56
The real sign of GW's lack of understanding when it comes to marketing is it's pricing strategy.

What Gamesworkshop have been doing for some time is what's called a "market skimming strategy", essentially this assumes that the demand for your product is relatively price inelastic, so when you increase the price, your revenue increases, despite a slight drop in sales.

The real problem comes if we take a look at traditional products where such a strategy works. Essentially they are almost universally prestige items such as Rolls Royces, rolexes and diamond rings. Quite simply, most of them are attractive simply because the vast majority of other people can't afford them. Alternatively if we look at extremely high end products such as the latest graphics card or uber-leet PC gaming rig, your enjoyment does not depend on other people having the same setup.

Now if we look at the Gamesworkshop "hobby" it is clear that people A) need opponents and B) tend to be more involved in the hobby and buy more, if they are part of a healthy gaming network. This is where GW's strategy backfires. By consistently making the barriers to entry higher and higher, one would expect the number of gamers to decline, as it becomes harder and harder to bring in new blood and the price of the hobby is seen by some current customers as no longer value for money.

Patriarch
26-03-2008, 14:03
I am fairly sure the knowledge that a new tasty meat pie was coming out in six months would not stop me from buying today's special at Mrs Miggins pie shop! :D (I am not sure how helpful that is to the current debate. :D)

Depends if you only budget for X pies a year. Mrs M has a delicious rabbit pie out in a couple of months (to coincide with your birthday, and don't blub). Do I invest time and money in the current (but decent) steak and kidney pie, or is it worth holding off for a bit? More knowledge will let me know if the Rabbit pie is good enough to delay.

That worked out with the daemonettes. Whilst I have no problem with the new placcy ones (I always realised they would be much nicer painted up) I much prefer the old ones, so stocked up on those once Warseer had shown the rumour pics. Without Warseer/WD, I would have had to wait until the plastics release in May before deciding.

Ozorik
26-03-2008, 17:08
Yeah there are gamers who have never found GW's games to be appealing, and have never played a GW game, but they are in the minority of the minority, IMHO; The wargaming market is dominated by games that borrow from GW's style, or game mechanics (I'm looking at you, Flames of War)


I have already corrected you on that FoW point in another thread but I see you didnt bother to read it. FoW bears no relation to GW in terms of game mechanics other than points values, they are both IGOUGO and both use a D6system. Thats all (and these are hardly unique GW traits).

I am willing to bet that you have never played a game of FoW and that you have never even read the rules.

As to your other point it is only partly true. Judging by threads I have read on other wargaming forums many adult gamers have never played any GW games at all, they are also not in the minority. GWs influence is very limited, geographically speaking.

GWs marketing is simply terrible. The only times that I see 'games workshop' outside of wargaming are in computer game manuals and computer game reviews.

The very first GW games I played were Battlemasters, Space crusade and Heroquest in that order. All 3 of these games came from a toyshop or a catalogue in the case of Space crusade. These games got me interested in wargames.

What is their equivelent now? DoW and the forthcoming WHO (or what ever it is these days)? Maybe, but I dont see them having the same penetration as a simple board game.

blongbling
26-03-2008, 17:41
well considering that the computer games industry is now worth more than teh music industry i would disagree that computer games wont get the same penetration as a simple board game........the amount of money invested in computer games these days is incredible, you cant watch a tv program without a new game being slapped in your face

Harry
26-03-2008, 18:04
Never bought a Warhammer computer game. Do they come with a glossy leaflet inside saying "Welcome to the world of warhammer games" "Look ... you can bring the computer game to life with ....Blah, blah." Etc. ????

I can't remember... did Heroquest or Space Crusade have something like this?

Lord Damocles
26-03-2008, 18:09
Never bought a Warhammer computer game. Do they come with a glossy leaflet inside saying "Welcome to the world of warhammer games" "Look ... you can bring the computer game to life with ....Blah, blah." Etc. ????

The first three Dawn of War games have NOTHING.

Soulstorm has two (black and white) pages at the back of the instruction book. One page has a picture of some marines and 'nids (who arn't a playable race in the game:rolleyes:). The other page has a selection of Black library novels - with Goto's 'Dawn of War Omnibus' having pride of place. Ouch.

Harry
26-03-2008, 18:12
Does not sound like they are making the best of all that penetration.

Ohhh, that could have sounded better. :D

Sounds like an opportunity missed.

weareinalotoftroublebeale
26-03-2008, 18:17
tonyflow - expansion doesnt mean more money.......if that was truely the case with the GW investors thay would have bailed by now as they havent had a dividend in the last two periods.....

retention of older customers, it is my impression that GW is heavliy invovled with the GCN and the setting up of clubs. Dont they advertise these clubs every month in WD? Retnetion of gamers seems tobe there, hell dont they run school leagues, keeping teh guys invovled that have jsut started....????


"if that was truely the case with the GW investors thay would have bailed by now as they havent had a dividend in the last two periods."

Um. hate to break the news. They have bailed. Share price is 1.91 has more than halved in the past 12 months. Gone up by 17 points today, but like the past three months will go down and up between the 1.70 and 1.99.

The Tony poster is correct. The company is run by shareholders the scary thing is it's run by so few. Yes it is about profits and expansion.

No it's not a gamers by gamers or for gamers company anymore.
If it was you:

would still have an extensive mail order range.

would still have citedal journal.

would not have a White Dwarf magazine which some claim on this forum it is for those at entry point of the hobby.

What do you think happened when the shareholders like me didn't get their dividends. They Sold! I didn't. I'm sorry but this gets me angry when all the information is infront of you and statements are made which are untrue!

My solution is that Games Workshop now has to listen to it's customers. Competition for their target consumers is fierce. What is killing them is their competitors are killing them because they have listened to the wants and needs of their consumers and have tailored their products to suit their needs better so they can strip of more cash from their customers.

Also their competitors have understood the value of working very hard to keep their long term customers happy and retained. By understanding their needs and wants.

To the original post. Are GW marketing simpletons? My question would be to that is do they even have a marketing department? I would not be surprised if they did not have such a department. Would explain allot.

To sum up my point view in an analogy. GW like all other companies who want our hard earned cash have a big fishing net. The problem GW have is that they have a big hole in the bottom of thier net.

Thanks,
Beale

MutantMaggot
26-03-2008, 18:26
Does not sound like they're making too much use of all that penetration.

Ohhh, that could have sounded better.

No one let SC or Rictus know about this thread ... :eek: :rolleyes:


This thread interests me, yet I feel everything I would normally say has already been said.

...And I agree with most of it. However, GW's marketing strategy is not amazing, but to do a more effective strategy would require money ... money they need for their present changes. I hear people complaining about the audience, but let's face it: that's not too bad. Those who are more experienced will find their way to forums such as this, and do not need GW help: those who do are the new recruits.

And therefore WD has changed according to this. My personal opinion is that WD has recently begun to get better again (mind you, I play VC, and all my armies are fantasy ;) ), yet if you disagree ... why buy it? People complain about it, when they can find far better material and help here, and on other forums! Why do you need do buy WD? The GW site supplies the new releases, and WarSeer has better hobby material.

As a "fluff addict" myself (check out my sig :D ), I far prefer to invent my own ... or look on the internet. I doubt in any way could GW affect my fluff ... more precise 'fluff' just gives me more options. As for painters and modellers ... they can check other sculptors' websites: which is what GW needs to stop. They need to listen to these people and find out what models there is greatest demand for ... what they need to make.

But while those factors may not be at fault, what is at fault with GW is their detachment from the customers. their customer service is very good about orders ... if you phone. Be thankful it's not as bad as FW! But when it comes to everything else ... no official forums. No email answers. And people employed who will roll a d6 (mentally) on the following basis for every question:

1-2: no
3-4: roll a D6
5-6:yes

So, overall, some aspects are good, and others bad. But TBH, it's their uncommunicative attitude that really chafes. Some sculptors and companies have their own forums etc.: the best example being the Arena DeathMatch forum of Felix Paniagua's. But GW ... no. As you can tell from the present WD editorial, their staff really don't want to communicate with gamers. The developers do, perhaps. They're very nice people, AFAIK. But what I dislike is GW's attitude as a whole.

^^^^
Hope that made a reasonable amount of sense ...

MM

weareinalotoftroublebeale
26-03-2008, 18:35
But while those factors may not be at fault, what is is their detachment from the customers. their customer service is very good about orders ... if you phone. Be thankful it's not as bad as FW! But when it comes to everything else ... no official forums. No email answers. And people employed who will roll a d6 (mentally) on the following basis for every question:

1-2: no
3-4: roll a D6
5-6:yes

So, overall, some aspects are good, and others bad. But TBH, it's their uncommunicative attitude that really chafes. Some sculptors and companies have their own forums etc.: the best example being the Arena DeathMatch forum of Felix Paniagua's. But GW ... no. As you can tell from the present WD editorial, their staff really don't want to communicate with gamers. The developers do, perhaps. They're very nice people, AFAIK. But what I dislike is GW's attitude as a whole.

MM

My sentiments exactly! I really do feel at times they roll a dice. In this day an age communication is the key especially for such a moderate small company as GW.

Thanks,
Beale

Harry
26-03-2008, 18:43
@Weareinalotoftrouble. May I call you WINALOT Beale? :D

I bought at 1.79. :D

They still have an extensive mail order range ... you just can't order it at the moment.:D

The journal stopped because not enough folks were buying it.

There competitors are not killing them. They don't have any serious competitors (in terms of market share)
Whatever some folks here seem to think.

The numbers do not tell the whole story and all the information is not infront of you.



@MutantMaggot.
About as much sence than usual mate :D

weareinalotoftroublebeale
26-03-2008, 19:04
@Harry

I understand. GW have no real competitors in their market. This has been the case for a long time.

However it is true to say that it is very dangerous to see Games Workshop in just it's own market.

Markets compete with other markets to dominate over eachother. For example in the 80's and 90's the toy market shrank as the Computer games market rose and now dominates. Kids these days prefer a Nintendo DS than their hero action figure and maturer products are infiltrating the kids market.

So to say that GW has no real competitors in their market is absolutley true.

But to think that their is no market competing against GW's market, well you might as well just say GW is the only sole hobby in existence.

It's Competitors from other markets which target the same consumer are making a killing against GW. That will continue to be the case until GW starts to Change, listen and deliver or sadly go under. I prefer the first.

Thanks,
Beale

Harry
26-03-2008, 19:11
ah... apologies I though you were talking about competitors in the toy soldier market.

Your not wrong!

In 1983, companies spent $100 million marketing to kids. In 1992 it was around $9 Billion. Today, they're spending nearly $17 billion annually.

Marketing firms and advertisers are looking to a younger demographic, increasingly targeting tweens and even younger children.

not surprising when you consider these kids have huge control over the flow of parents' spending, statistics show 8 to 12-year-olds spend $30 billion of their own money each year and influence another $150 billion of their parents' spending.

Bloody parasites!!! :D

weareinalotoftroublebeale
26-03-2008, 19:23
@Weareinalotoftrouble. May I call you WINALOT Beale? :D

@MutantMaggot.
About as much sence than usual mate :D

If you want,

Thanks
Beale



Your not wrong!

In 1983, companies spent $100 million marketing to kids. In 1992 it was around $9 Billion. Today, they're spending nearly $17 billion annually.

Marketing firms and advertisers are looking to a younger demographic, increasingly targeting tweens and even younger children.

not surprising when you consider these kids have huge control over the flow of parents' spending, statistics show 8 to 12-year-olds spend $30 billion of their own money each year and influence another $150 billion of their parents' spending.

Bloody parasites!!! :D

Yes exactly, They are bloody parasites truth be told I make a good buck from them as well.

I think allot of people think in terms of GW and it's market as if it is a single market that is invunerable to other market forces. This is wrong and not the case.

I wonder if GW itslef realises this fact themselves. If they don't it really explains the world of trouble they are in.

Thanks,
Beale

MutantMaggot
26-03-2008, 19:38
@MutantMaggot.
About as much sense than usual mate

That's not a good thing ... :D ;)



not surprising when you consider these kids have huge control over the flow of parents' spending, statistics show 8 to 12-year-olds spend $30 billion of their own money each year and influence another $150 billion of their parents' spending.

Bloody parasites!!!
I'm glad to say I'm too old to be included in that ... besides, I'm not a parasite, I'm a maggot ... :D

____________________________

On-topic, I'm not surprised. I know many of my friends get a horrendous amount of money from their parents ... but tend to get easily distracted, or haven't got the resolve or patience in any way to play Warhammer ...

Which just goes to show GW is aiming at an audience that is a lost cause ... a tiny fraction of those will go on to game seriously, but only a tiny fraction.

However, I am constantly amazed by some fairly young people ... an example here would be Pickle (from the AB. I hope he won't mind me using him as an example): he has scratch-built an entire titan to an astounding quality from plasticard. I do not know how much money he receives, yet it is in that sort of person GW has a future ... precisely the sort of people who their advertising won't ensnare ...

TBH, it's a lose - lose situation. Even if they did aim for adults, most of them are cynical enough by now not to be swayed by good painting (though I daresay many people on here and the AB are better painters), or consider such hobbies "childish".

MM

Harry
26-03-2008, 20:11
Lets have a look at just how much trouble we ARE in. :D

How do 12-15 year old boys spend all their parents dosh?

20% Sweets
20% Other food (Pies, that sort of thing .... so thats fair enough!)
10% Clothes, shoes.
1% Personal hygene. (Yes, MM I am looking at you! :D)
5% Books/Magazines. (0.000000005% of which is WD)
5% Music (The youth of today. They got no soul!)
2% DVD's
7% Sports/cultural
4% Mobile phones
6% Other (I guess this is stuff they did not want to admit to like drugs and pornography :D)
As I type this I can't help but notice the repetitive strain injury MM mentions in his sig' so I suspect I am right on this one.:D)

Leaving 20% spent on Toys and games exactly half of which is spent on computer games.

We are all in a lot of trouble!

Chaos and Evil
26-03-2008, 20:18
We are all in a lot of trouble!

Lies!!!!!!



I am willing to bet that you have never played a game of FoW and that you have never even read the rules.

Wrong on both counts.


As to your other point it is only partly true. Judging by threads I have read on other wargaming forums many adult gamers have never played any GW games at all, they are also not in the minority. GWs influence is very limited, geographically speaking.

I'm willing to bet tens of thousands that the endlessly-renewing chain of noobs outnumber the beardy grognards by orders of magnitude.



GWs marketing is simply terrible. The only times that I see 'games workshop' outside of wargaming are in computer game manuals and computer game reviews.

Go and ask any teen what 'Games Workshop' sells.

Ozorik
26-03-2008, 20:18
well considering that the computer games industry is now worth more than teh music industry i would disagree that computer games wont get the same penetration as a simple board game

Not everyone has a computer and of those that do many wont run DoW, or other modern games. Boardgames dont need hardware. This is what I mean. Additionally boardgames such as the ones I mentioned are the sort of thing that would appeal to younger children, I think I got my first one what I was 7 for example simply because I saw it in a toy shop.
I would much prefer if GW aimed at a more mature audience but as they seem hell bent on thier current target demographic then this approach makes sense. Plus board games are much cheaper to develop than computer games.


There competitors are not killing them. They don't have any serious competitors (in terms of market share)


Maybe not at the moment but I would be ashtonished if their current market share is equal to, or greater than, what it was 5 years ago (in the UK at least).


Wrong on both counts

Yet you still seem to think that FoW is recycled GW, How? There isnt a single rule in FoW that bares more than a passing resemblence to any GW game and those that do are generally things like exactly who is caught under a template etc. Are you sure you have played FoW and not warhammer panzer battles?


I'm willing to bet tens of thousands that the endlessly-renewing chain of noobs outnumber the beardy grognards by orders of magnitude

You mean the endlessly renewing chain which stays at the exact same net length? Those kids that drop out hardly count as gamers anymore do they? Plus as I said GWs influence is geographically limited, the situation is different in America from what I have read.

MutantMaggot
26-03-2008, 20:25
Harry: That seems about right for most people I know ... yet I'm afraid to say that it does not apply to everyone. Only three things on that apply to me: everything else is my own money ... and a lot of that is Warhammer.

Those three? Books (Other), personal Hygiene, clothes and shoes. Everything else I buy myself. However, I am an exception, unfortunately: most people I know have their parents buy literally everything for them, or have a horrendous amount of pocket money.

(And BTW, the RSI is because of my story-writing ... check out my sig' for proof ... ;) )

MM

Harry
26-03-2008, 20:26
@Ozorik
Another thought I just had ...

As a dad ... it will be a loooooooooong time before I am buying my son any computer games.

But something like Heroquest. I will be getting him into that just as soon as he is old enough.


And BTW, the RSI is because of my story-writing ... check out my sig' for proof ... ;)

Yeah, right.
The old story-writing ploy. :D

MutantMaggot
26-03-2008, 20:31
I don't want to seem like I'm bragging, but I didn't really use a computer much until I was about nine or ten ...

And that was mainly because of my brother's laptop and his games on it, not because my parents bought me any good computer games ... Harry, I agree: if you can, you should keep your children off computer games for as long as possible! ;)

MM

EDIT: I said check out my story, damnit! Must ... have .... feedback ... :D

Ozorik
26-03-2008, 20:38
And BTW, the RSI is because of my story-writing ... check out my sig' for proof ...

Ok then how do you explain the calluses on your palms? ;)

Another problem with the 'endlessly renewing chain of noobs' is that it tars the entire wargaming hobby with the same brush and further reinforces the sterotype that it is just for kids.

Harry
26-03-2008, 20:40
@MM
I figure he will find computer games on his own soon enough ... and all his mates will have them.

That way we can do other stuff together.

The breakdown above is just a VERY rough idea of how children spend money. (Their own and their parents).

I just thought it was of interest to the topic to see what GW competitors are.
The fact that they spend as much on sweets as games for example.

But still if these figures are right (and they are a few years old ... they were just the first thing I found on the mintynet) GW are fighting for a slice of a $40 Billion pie. $20 billion of which has already been eaten by Computer Games.

Seems to me the best thing GW can do is Blister pack sweets right along on in there with their minis and they will be all set. :D

blongbling
26-03-2008, 23:43
weareallonmtrouble......actually GW's investors havent left, they have all remained, at least teh big ones.....the share price doesnt relate to the sales of shares but teh perceived value of teh company...

silverstu
27-03-2008, 00:16
EDIT: Actually they do still need some other info as well as this quantitative information if they are to learn some of the WHY's as well as the where's and whens. They also need to ask some 'WHAT IF' questions as well ... so maybe you have a point as well Stu. :D

That will be the economics degree kicking in..:D, did it before art college- 4 years of economics-the pain!!- but the info still pops up every once in a while...
Yeah marketing is a lot more than targeting advertising and knowing who buys your stuff- it would show them what else they buy, what are their motivations in buying new things, how they would react to certain changes/new product and their view of what GW actually embodies amongst other things. It's almost like psychological/lifestyle profiling and is pretty important in maximising your market.
Missing tie ins like the computer games market is a big miss and i think board games with models would be a perfect entry level for the hobby- simple rules and objectives and get 'em using dice and mini's. Worked before with heroquest and Spacehulk.
Ok I'll stop now as I am rambling again.. I mean 4 years of economics... it burns..:p

weareinalotoftroublebeale
27-03-2008, 01:51
weareallonmtrouble......actually GW's investors havent left, they have all remained, at least teh big ones.....the share price doesnt relate to the sales of shares but teh perceived value of teh company...

Yes and no. Allot of share holders have left. Thats a fact. I think some of the big ones have left only to change hands with different financial firms. I can't remember from the top of my head as I invest in various places.

But the main point is a hell of a lot of shareholders have left. But I agree some haven't left.

Does anyone know how much profit the major four investors (banks, financial firms) have made. Enough to pay everyones pension who works at GW twice over and that is still doesn't equate to how much they made. Whether you like it or not that is their right and the risk they have put in to make that profit. GW has always been a sunshine in the stockmarket for investors.

Although sadly enough for many reasons stated in this forum the sun has gone and the rain has come, and as the investor gave that large umbrella when the sun was shining. They took it away when it started raining and have looked elsewhere.

If GW keep moving towards selling off their assests and expanding their IP by using independant 3rd parties such as THQ or EAmythic and others there is still hope (but the not the hope I or others are hoping for). But the hobby as we know it looks a little bleak.

Thanks,
Beale

MutantMaggot
27-03-2008, 10:34
.... [(just because I didn't want the replies to be confused :D -- MM)]

Another problem with the 'endlessly renewing chain of noobs' is that it tars the entire wargaming hobby with the same brush and further reinforces the stereotype that it is just for kids.

Yep. And it also works in another way ... people in the hobby become prejudiced against younger gamers: on here, for example, many (though not all, of course) people are so used to stereotyping younger gamers in the "noob" category (more stereotyping, but it helps to get the idea across ;) ) that they will regard every young gamers as the sort that tends to inhabit GW stores.

Harry: I was disappointed to discover a lack of chocolate figures to accompany Easter ... :D

But overall, yep: that chart does look about right for most people I know, even if it is [as you say] a few years old.

Silverstu: agreed. Felix Paniagua's "Arena DeathMatch" game is exactly the sort of thing GW needs to do more of: it is gaining a huge amount of support. Even without an advertising campaign, Paniagua is making a massive amount of money (or will be) from AoW and Arena DeathMatch: which is exactly the niche GW has missed. Also, I think something new would be a good start ... same figures, new game: no stereotyping. ;)

And of course the investors have left: some of them have panicked. Yet the fact is that GW is not in as deep a Black Hole (Not that Black Holes have depth) as many other companies: if the figures from 2007 were anything to go by, it's slowly on the rise; not the decline. However, I know very little of economics, so that's purely observation based on [perhaps unreliable] figures from here that I can barely remember ...

MM

Coasty
27-03-2008, 17:29
Not everyone has a computer and of those that do many wont run DoW, or other modern games.

But the vast majority do, and DoW is, by PC gaming standards, getting on a bit...

Ozorik
27-03-2008, 19:00
I doubt that 'the vast majority do'. The vast majority of what? In the UK only 61% of households have internet access (a reasonable approximation for computer ownership) and only a fraction of them will have a computer capable of playing modern games.

blongbling
27-03-2008, 19:02
not a fraction....last calender year the computer games industry overtook the music industry in terms of sales in the UK meaing lots of game sales.......computers are so cheap now that most people can afford to update/buy a new one every few years...all capable of playing modern games.

there are very few computer games out there which will really push modern PC's to the limit, Cyrsis being the only real one

Ozorik
27-03-2008, 19:50
Bearing in mind what a fraction is there are still many households which lack the capability to play advanced games either on a PC (the most common games machine) or on a console.

Boardgames require no technology other than what comes with the box therefore they are much more accessable, therefore they will have greater penetration.

t-tauri
27-03-2008, 20:26
Boardgames require no technology other than what comes with the box therefore they are much more accessable, therefore they will have greater penetration.How many shops do you know which sell a range of boardgames? Compare that to the number of shops selling computer games and how wide the range of computer games is in comparison.

Ozorik
27-03-2008, 20:38
Board games turn up in the sort of shop that children freqent essentially toy shops.

Remember I am talking about preteens here for the most part.

DoW etc will attract the teen+ market.

EmperorNorton
27-03-2008, 20:47
Seems to me the best thing GW can do is Blister pack sweets right along on in there with their minis and they will be all set. :D

That'd get me to buy more.

Or maybe make troops out of chocolate...

lanrak
27-03-2008, 20:56
MMMMMMMMMMMMMM, choclate.

Whats wrong with the highly evolved marketing strategy GW have?

'Look cool GW minis please buy our cool GW minis.
GW make cool mins please buy our cool GW minis.'

Obviously decent game rules, game play,and gamer support is totaly irrelevant/ unnecissary.:rolleyes:

Coasty
27-03-2008, 21:24
I doubt that 'the vast majority do'. The vast majority of what? In the UK only 61% of households have internet access (a reasonable approximation for computer ownership) and only a fraction of them will have a computer capable of playing modern games.

The vast majority of GW's target demographic. DoW is not a 'modern' game; it is a few years old and its engine doesn't even phase my laptop, let alone my PC.
The number of males in their early teens without access to a machine able to handle DoW must be relatively tiny and shrinking fast.

Ozorik
27-03-2008, 22:07
The number of males in their early teens without access to a machine able to handle DoW must be relatively tiny and shrinking fast.


Remmber that statistic I just qouted, the 61% one? Ill be generous and say that 30% of the early teenage demographic arent able to play DoW (which I was using as an example, fewer will be able to play WHO). Thats hardly a tiny percentage.

We have moved away from the central topic now though.

blongbling
27-03-2008, 23:21
so these 61% adn 30% then..where are they from? all teh numbers i see say different.....

Temprus
27-03-2008, 23:41
How many shops do you know which sell a range of boardgames? Compare that to the number of shops selling computer games and how wide the range of computer games is in comparison.
While there are far fewer stores that specialize in mostly board games, most major toy and department stores (at least in the USA) have equal or better shelf space devoted to them then they do video games (which admittedly have much smaller boxes/shelf space needs). This is why GW needs to make intro sets that will get into these stores. ;)

EmperorNorton, they need bubblegum strips, just like Baseball Cards (well used to have). :D

Ozorik
27-03-2008, 23:52
so these 61% adn 30% then..where are they from? all teh numbers i see say different.....

The office of national statistics, the branch of the UK govornment responsible for gathering statistics. The 30% is assuming that 70% of young teenagers have access to at least a moderately powerful PC (which is highly unlikely).

Crazy Harborc
28-03-2008, 03:16
Then there is the Pacific rim growing market. The USA, Canada, oh yeah those two English(?:D) speaking nations on those islands downunder. PC and gameboy etc games are a very big drawing card. Most teens know about those PC games.....How many know about GW, much less the rest of the goodies involved in the hobby of wargaming?

Millions upon millions of kids with PCs at school at home. Gameboys, games for PCs....More and more of those games draw away the potential newbies.:eek:

Coasty
28-03-2008, 08:23
The office of national statistics, the branch of the UK govornment responsible for gathering statistics.

Who are highly unreliable to say the very least. I'm a civil servant, I know what they're like.
Believe me; nearly all kids (outside of poverty-stricken sink estates) have a gaming rig of some kind.

blongbling
28-03-2008, 09:52
so, the combined sales of software/hardware/etc for the UK for computer games was 3.4bn...........thats a whole lotta games and equipment