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NakedBarbarian
21-03-2008, 23:57
I need help! im playing the final game of my local vets nights WFB campaign, and its against tomb kings. I use khorne chaos mortals. will all my dispel dice be enough to nerf his magic? Is the best way to beat him to kill his tomb prince/leiche?

Draconian77
22-03-2008, 01:52
Deploy another WHFB army opposite them?


Yeah, essentially shoot down their small units and try to negate their magic phase. The staff that gives +1 to Dispel can be useful here but 2 scrolls is probably better.

theunwantedbeing
22-03-2008, 02:03
Khorne mortals vs tomb kings....
You know, your going to struggle to lose that battle.

Oenghus
22-03-2008, 02:10
There's little in a TK army that can stand up to Khorne chosen knights -- and he can't really bait them with fleeing fast cav or sacrifice entire units as bait to take advantage of their frenzy.

Don't worry about going after his heirophant (although you should take the opportunity to kill it if the chance arises). Just go after him hard, and make sure that he doesn't get the flank charges off in his magic phase.

He's likely to have between 10-16 power dice (or, at least, their TK equivalents which are a bit different).

Things you need to worry about:
Screaming Skull Catapults
A King with Destroyer of Eternities
Ushabti (if they get a good charge on, say, a Knight unit's flank)
Scorpions
Combat Resolution.
Maybe the casket if he manages to draw out all of your dispel dice.

Things you don't need to worry about:
Everything else.

Draconian77
22-03-2008, 06:16
"He's likely to have between 10-16 power dice (or, at least, their TK equivalents which are a bit different)."

No he isn't. Hes likely to have 8-9 Power Dice.

Oenghus
22-03-2008, 11:20
Okay... well, when I play my Tomb Kings, I have between 10 (for my Tomb King list) and 16 (for my LHP list) power dice. Counting the casket, but not counting various bound spells and whatnot.

So I guess he's likely to have between 8-16 PDEq.

Garg Foecrusher
22-03-2008, 11:27
Dispel his incantations and kill his Hierophant, and watch nature taking it's toll :)
Those chariots aren't that scary, and his fast cav isn't really fast.

But watch those archers, always hitting on 5+ is quite annoying, especially if there's a bunch of them on a hill.

Jack of Blades
22-03-2008, 11:28
Archers? bah... Marauders don't care about S3 bowmen hitting on 5+. The rest of the units will just laugh. I mean take a unit of 14 Warriors of Khorne with Halberds against 20 hits (yes, 20 hits). They'll wound on 5+ which means about 7 wounds, and then they have an armour save of 5+, so around 4-5 die.

Sixty shots and 4-5 Warriors that don't have Chaos Armour nor Shields die. Very impressive... Sure, it's a rank and maybe outnumbering bonus off them, but you could probably have spent those points in a better way against Chaos. Of course, if you don't mind that go ahead.

I'm not a powergamer/WAAC/min-maxer/list-tailorer, not even close, but that comment on the Archers was disturbing :P

Garg Foecrusher
22-03-2008, 11:36
But if the TK player use Queen Khalida and suddenly all those shots are poisoned? :P

NakedBarbarian
22-03-2008, 12:29
In the 2000pt phase of our campaign the army list we chose has to last us 3 battles without being changed. This is my list;

Chaos Lord
Daemonic steed, hellfire sword, shield, mark of khorne

Exlated Champion
Axe of khorne, mark of khorne

24 chaos warriors
hw/sh, command, mark of khorne

5 chosen knights of chaos
Mark of khorne, command, banner of rage

6 marauder horsemen
shields, command


3 dragon ogres

1 shaggoth

Total 6 dispel dice generated every turn. So far its pretty much nerfed the magic of both armies i've come agaignst so far (lizardmen and high elves), but i have a feeling TK will out power dice me. I've played them once before when i got back into the hobby a couple of years ago, i don't know much about them, but being inexperienced i was pretty easily drilled.

Im just hoping my knights and dragon ogres can hack my way through the army, as my shaggoth has pretty much been killed turn 2 almost every time i have used it.

I've i could write my list again i would take 2000pts of as many characters and core units with mark of khorne possible and generate an unholy ammount of dispel dice.

Oenghus
22-03-2008, 12:40
Do you know anything about what he'll be bringing to the table?

Just make sure that your knights and warriors get the charge and you should be fine. Keep in mind that if he has a catapult (and he likely will) those warriors are going to look like pretty juicy targets. They're a big target, an expensive unit, and he definitely won't want them in combat with his army. Keep your general nearby for a turn or two so they can use his leadership for their panic tests.

Or wait, are they immune to psychology? If so, don't worry about the panic -- just get them into combat asap.

In fact, that's sort of your primary goal, here. Don't let him whittle you down with caskets or catapults. Get your guys in combat in an advantageous and above all speedy fashion.

Asentaja
22-03-2008, 14:13
I wouldn't worry too much about his archers, as most of your troops have T4 or higher. Watch out for catapult(s) and high STR models. And TK in a chariot with flail of skulls might even kill your Chaos Lord, unless you give him helm of many eyes, in which case he will beat the crap out the king before it can even say "Is that sword of yours burning?".

Draconian77
22-03-2008, 14:32
"Okay... well, when I play my Tomb Kings, I have between 10 (for my Tomb King list) and 16 (for my LHP list) power dice. Counting the casket, but not counting various bound spells and whatnot."

Admittedly a LHP would bring the total a above 10 but then chariots are special(which means less Scorpions :eek: and Ushabti and more importantly Tomb Guard) and I never licked the LHP. Never liked the LHP, the TK is a great lord choice and one of the few heavy hitting models in their army book.

In a regular list I would expect to see a TK(2), a TP(1), 2 LP(4), a Casket(2) and maybe the standard the ressurects(count as 1) for about 10 PD.

Bazzal
22-03-2008, 23:28
tk can be very nasty, but a good khorne list should survive just always keep 2-3 dice for the casket or have someone with magic resistance as those dice can be added to the pool. in my Tk list i have tk (2), 3 lp (6), casket(2), then 3 bound items lvs 3 n 4.

but if you have chosen chaos knights get them nto combat quick as they should run down almost any unit, with the exception of Tomb Guard with character. but with 16 atks (i think thats right for chosen unit 5 strong inc horses) against T3'S and 4's youd mow them down.

hope you do well :-) and hope i dont face you in my nationals next week lol

W0lf
22-03-2008, 23:39
Call me crazy but the no.1 secret to beating TKs is to let him have certain spells.

Go flick read 2 pages in their book, liche priest and incantations. Once you know the spells and order they are so very predicatable.

My favourite trick is to allow a 'vital' spell through, example:

Screaming skull catapult.

If he has a HLP and 2 LPs (the armies i face) then the skull catapult is firing. Period. He can recast multiply times and in the end he will just draw your dice. Let him have it the first time and suddnely there is very little he has left to do. Oh and you can dispel most of it.

Works a charm for me and my track records 100% vs Tks. Really seems to annoy my 2 local TK players aswell :P

Dragon Prince of Caledor
23-03-2008, 03:06
Hunt down the hierophant. Accept the inevitability that some magic will get off. Pick and choose which spells you want to dispel. Good luck!:)

najo
23-03-2008, 17:13
I am going to second focus on killing the heriphant. You make that happen as fast as possible with the least number of loses and you've won.

Then start sweeping through the weakess units with your heavy units and clean everything up. Nature will take its course.

Dispell the movment spells and the damage spells if needed. Don't worry about the rest.

Neknoh
23-03-2008, 17:21
Spread the Warriors 6 or 7 wide, take him head on... and by the gods, keep your Exalted Champions AWAY from Tomb Scorpions, the Killingblow can REALLY hurt you. The Lord should go after his Ushabtis, Tomb Scorps and chariots, do NOT bring him into contact with a Tombking, the curse will be very painful and the influence on his army minimal.

Tose are the advice I can give you... oh, stop movement spells, not resurrecting stuffies

Cap'n Facebeard
23-03-2008, 17:43
Don't fall into a coma whilst playing. That is the way to VICTORY!

Seriously, I stopped using Khorne against TK because they win every time.

Anodai
23-03-2008, 18:01
Call me crazy but the no.1 secret to beating TKs is to let him have certain spells.

Go flick read 2 pages in their book, liche priest and incantations. Once you know the spells and order they are so very predicatable.

If you go to the GW website you can download a PDF with tomb king 'Spell Cards' that tell you the exact army book entry of all of his spells.
Also, though the tomb king list isn't the most flexible thing in the world, it would help if you gave as much intel on his force as possible

Eigilb
23-03-2008, 19:23
Call me crazy but the no.1 secret to beating TKs is to let him have certain spells.

Go flick read 2 pages in their book, liche priest and incantations. Once you know the spells and order they are so very predicatable.

My favourite trick is to allow a 'vital' spell through, example:

Screaming skull catapult.

If he has a HLP and 2 LPs (the armies i face) then the skull catapult is firing. Period. He can recast multiply times and in the end he will just draw your dice. Let him have it the first time and suddnely there is very little he has left to do. Oh and you can dispel most of it.

Works a charm for me and my track records 100% vs Tks. Really seems to annoy my 2 local TK players aswell :P

100% I play tk Magic heacy myself, with HLP (6pd, reroll able (staff)), 2 lp (4pd), tp (1pd), casket 2pd, 2 boundspells on PL 4 and 3. Around 15 PD, but effectively (with 6 rerollable disces) around 18pd IMO.

Above is the most annoying thing an opponent can do agasint you. Becuase if you focus on casting one spell and it gets throug the first time, what are supposed to use the rest of your liches to do with a range of 12"?
This works ofcourse only if your opponent focuses most of his magic on getting 1 or 2 spells through.

Rule of thumb before you start dispelling, estimate how many DP you need to dispell it, and if you don't think itīs worth dispelling, Let i though the first time.

unforgiven555
23-03-2008, 21:31
Above is the most annoying thing an opponent can do against you.

Your logic makes no sense. Your opponent is automatically providing you with your best case scenario, that is you get your crucial spell through the first time, and you're complaining? If your opponent does this he's giving you more options. Instead of having to cast the same spell again and again through dispel dice, you can focus on something else, assured that the most essential part of your magic phase got through.

In general giving your opponent more options is a BAD idea. Now he has the potential to reform or move his guys or even have a secondary charge, have his archers shoot and potentially cause a panic test or attack with all of his men once in another combat - potentially causing a panic test, raise more men, or even shoot (on average) 3.5 s4 shots at a unit.

If you are placing your liche priests in a manner that they can support only one unit, you are not playing correctly.

W0lf
23-03-2008, 21:48
Your logic makes no sense.

try it.

He and 5 other TK players i know all agree with me.

Its not the worst thing to do at all. Trust me when your opponent has a HLP and 2 LP he WILL and i mean WILL get the spell through. Unless you can dispel 4 castings relibably.

Oh and if a skull catapult firing or a TK charge is that vital its cost you the game you have some... issues??

dragonelf
23-03-2008, 21:50
Something is irritating me as I read this thread so I am going to have to chip in and correct everyone.

Tomb kings get 2 power dice.

The dice the casters use as there to generate the power leve of incantations and can't be used as equivalent to power dice. They can never fail to cast a spell or miscast, this is why they are different to power dice. This means you will ALWAYS have to use a scroll or dice to stop a spell unlike other casters who can fail to roll a high enough number to cast a spell.

So when you decide whether to let an incantation through you need to see what the power level generated is and whether it is worth you committing dispel dice. It is important that you (and your opponent!) know the strict order of casting so you can plan what to let through and what to dispel.

But as others have said, khorne armies tend to do well against tomb kings.

Eigilb
23-03-2008, 22:06
Sure its best to have multiple potetial tagets for you incanations, but often, youīll only have one or two targets.

True it makes no sence, but as a TK player itīs annoying not to get to use all your magic even though itīs dispelled or not.

Eigilb
23-03-2008, 22:12
Something is irritating me as I read this thread so I am going to have to chip in and correct everyone.

Tomb kings get 2 power dice.

The dice the casters use as there to generate the power leve of incantations and can't be used as equivalent to power dice. They can never fail to cast a spell or miscast, this is why they are different to power dice. This means you will ALWAYS have to use a scroll or dice to stop a spell unlike other casters who can fail to roll a high enough number to cast a spell.

So when you decide whether to let an incantation through you need to see what the power level generated is and whether it is worth you committing dispel dice. It is important that you (and your opponent!) know the strict order of casting so you can plan what to let through and what to dispel.

But as others have said, khorne armies tend to do well against tomb kings.


My heavy magic tombkings army have effectivly 18 Magicdices/Incarnation Disces and 2 PD, power dices.

Anyway, itīs a detail - calling it PD or whatever, most ppl know what youīre saying when talking about Magic and TK armies.

unforgiven555
24-03-2008, 04:45
Trust me when your opponent has a HLP and 2 LP he WILL and i mean WILL get the spell through.

I'm not arguing that he won't get it through. I just don't understand why it'd annoy him? I mean, essentially as the TK player you're spending the magic phase to get your game winning spell through. You get it through first try and.. now you don't have to break open that hierarch jar. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you? What else are you going to do with your dispel dice? Why not force him on the same path as long as possible, removing his options for secondary magic objectives, like raising or an extra round of attacks?


True it makes no sense, but as a TK player itīs annoying not to get to use all your magic even though itīs dispelled or not.
Anything that removes the number of dice rolls I need to make is a something that makes me happy.

*SQUEE*
24-03-2008, 07:20
Focus on cancelling the TK movement spells only. This is how TK win most games.

Eigilb
24-03-2008, 10:22
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you?

I had the SSC in mind when i whrote the above, as itīs usually posistioned further back than the rest of the army (when i play it is, anyway) And if you focus 2 liches or 1 liche and HLP on getting it to shoot, it feels like a waste of magic if it goes through on the first incarnation, in whichc case my hlp can use 2x 3d6 spells on my 2x10 archers, which admittedly, have potential but rarely lives up to their reputation..

IMO.

Mad Makz
24-03-2008, 10:39
TK Armies which focus their liche priests on getting the screaming skull catapult off multiple times over deploying/maneuvering them for movement spells are in for a beating anyway - as SSC's can too easily misfire etc.

The best characters to incant SSC are either Tomb princes who have joined the warmachine or nearby tomb kings. Even in a TK on a chariot can reliably get incantations off in the first turn on a SSC, and then you've still got the flexibility of other spells with your other characters.

As I see it, SSC's really only need to have the Smiting cast on them turn 1 and 2, after that they are generally either misfiring, lacking multiple viable targets, engaged by fliers or under threat by fast cavalry etc.

A well co-ordinated TK army should never not have a spell to cast, turns one and two smiting (even if cast on a unit of 4 chariots to get another 4 shots off with their bows) is always a viable cast, turns three to four every character should be casting Urgency on every attempt. Turns five and six is generally a mix of raising and movement.

Occasionally if there is juicy target ;the magic missile will come out in the later stages of the game (especially if you have three liche priests, as multiple late game magic missiles can finish off units to gain full victory points.)

As Tomb Kings require 6 turns to win, any army which can deny them playing for the full 6 turns by rushing down their throat and shutting down their mid and late game magic is a significant threat. Early game magic in turns 1 and 2 generally makes very little difference to the scheme of the game, with the exception of improving the ability of SSC which due to misfire and scatter potential is a bit random in the first place.

najo
25-03-2008, 06:08
If you go to the GW website you can download a PDF with tomb king 'Spell Cards' that tell you the exact army book entry of all of his spells.
Also, though the tomb king list isn't the most flexible thing in the world, it would help if you gave as much intel on his force as possible

Not the most flexible? I play tomb kings and they are nearly as flexible as Empire or Orcs. They rank right in there with high elves and dark elves for flexibility. At least the troop selections do.

I have found there is so many ways to play them. Either go with a tomb king or a high priest, from there you can make shooting armies, combat heavy armies, very mobile hit and run type armies, and then how each plays is very verstile.

For example, I can take one or two skull catapults, and then depending on whether I use liche priests with them I have 2 - 4 heavy artillery in 2000 points. You can run 1 or 2 bone giants with the high liche priest and get a very frightening steamroller. heavy cavalry works like elite light cavalry in other armies, the chariots can be geared up to do some nasty stuff, tomb scorpions have a number of different roles, from speed bump, to war machine killer to character killer. Carrion can charge or move 40" if movement spells are used on them.

Tomb Kings are a expert level army. There is alot of synergy between the characters and the units you take. The army has many ways to play and can be very adaptable. If you think other wise, you haven't seen them played right. They are an awesome army.

najo
25-03-2008, 06:16
Also, put the banner of undying legion in yout tomb gaurd. With the t4 the d6 models back on the bound spell is good. People expect the tomb gaurd to have the Icon at first, so early on you can trick your opponent. Once the banner is restoring d6 tomb gaurd a turn, your opponent can't help to throw 2d6 dispell dice at it at the start of the magic phase. Makes that magic heavy TK army even more powerful.

Badbones777
27-03-2008, 01:16
There's little in a TK army that can stand up to Khorne chosen knights .

As a TK player, I can attest to this fact-Khornate chosen (with the Lord it must be said) Frontally assaulted max sized block of my Skelly spearmen (Idont recall, the unit may have taken the odd casualty from missile fire previously, point is, it was no smaller than 35 by the time the knights charged home). Unit dead in a single turn thanks to combat res. Admittedly, Khornate chosen with their Lord are a sickeningly good (not to mention annoying) unit, but even so.

Lord_Squinty
01-04-2008, 22:01
Maybe the casket if he manages to draw out all of your dispel dice.



You dont even have to worry about the casket if you get something with magic resistance and keep it in LOS to the casket ;)