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Malorian
22-03-2008, 17:27
So I went to the local bunker yesterday and brought my lizardmen. Pretty much everyone was playing 40k so I was stuck waiting for a game, and when someone did come they had lizardmen as well so I didn't think it would be a good game.

We decided that we would try magic heavy vs combat heavy and after we rolled off I got the magic heavy.

I had this lis made up already:

2nd gen slann w/ BSB, diadem of power, plaque of tepok
(1st spell of death, life, and fire. Firery blast, wall of fire)
Lvl 2 priest w/ rod of storm
Lvl 2 priest w/ blood statuette
Lvl 2 priest w/ 2 dispel scrolls
Lvl 2 priest w/ scout

10 skinks w/ javs, scout
10 skinks w/ javs, scout
10 skinks w/ blowpipes
10 skinks w/ blowpipes
10 skinks w/ blowpipes

20 saurus w/ full command
20 saurus w/ full command
20 saurus w/ full command, spears, quetzl

5 saurus cav
5 saurus cav

3 salamanders
3 salamanders


The list he made had: (to the best of my knowledge...)

Old blood on cold one w/ scimitar of the sun, mirror shield, stuff
scarvet on cold one w/ stuff
scarvet (JSoD)
Lvl 2 priest w/ 2 dispel scrolls
Lvl 2 priest w/ cube of darkness

10 skinks w/ javs, scout
10 skinks w/ javs, scout
10 skinks w/ blowpipes
10 skinks w/ blowpipes

16 Saurus w/ full command
16 Saurus w/ full command

4 swarms

7 saurus cav w/ full command (might have had a magic banner)

4 terradons w/ brave

10 chameleon skinks

Stegadon

3 salamanders


I really expected him to be more combat heavy with a carnosaur or something, but out lists were different enough that it looked interesting.


The board was 4X6 and from my view there was a large forest in the back left of my deployment, a big hill just left of the very center, a forest in the back left of his deployment, and a forest in the right of his deployment zone.


I put a unit of skinks in the trees to the left w/ the rod of storms priest. Behind the hill I had a unit of saurus cav, then a unit of saurus, the saurus with spears (w/ slann), salamanders (w/ priest), saurus, cav, salamanders (w/ 2 priests). Then the rest of the skinks made a screen in front. (No good place to put my scouts)

Behind the hill he had his terradons, then in the clearing there was both units of saurus with the stegadon in the center (JSoD in the left unit), behind the trees on the right were two units of skinks w/ the priests, in the clearing on the right he put the cav (w/ coldone characters) with the swarms in front and the salamanders on their right. A unit of skinks scouted behind the hill and behind the trees in my deployment, and the camo skinks went into the trees 3 inches away from my skinks.


Despite him having +1 I won first turn and took it.


Turn 1 Me:

The skinks all moved forward and since the real battle was to be on the right , my slann moved into the saurus on the right and headed over. The skinks and moved up to the camo skinks. The blood statuette does a wound to one of his priests, he dispels the the rod of storm on his camo skinks, his front unit of skinks behind the trees got blasted and wiped out by the slann (a pries failed it's panic and run back but not off the board) and the slann also kills a couple of handlers and does 2 wounds to a salamander. A skink priest miscasts allowing him to cast a spell but I dispel. I try and shoot the camo skinks but none hit (no surprise).

Turn 1 Him:

Priest rallies. All units move up and stegadon turna to face slann. Jac skinks behind the hill run to flank of my cav on the left, and his other jav skinks run around the forest on my side while the terradons fly to the other side. Magic is shut down. Salamanders wipe out my skinks infront of my salamanders on the right. Camo skinks shoot at my skinks and kill 2. Stegadon shoots at slann but fails to hit.

Turn 2 Me:

Priest and skinks in forest charge camo skinks. My jav skinks on the left charge his jav skinks that had moved to my cavs flank. A unit of skinks runs up towards his trees, and the other runs up to block the swarms. Saurus move a bit more forward. Slann tries to cast first spell and it is dispelled by the cube of darkness and the whole phase is stopped. My slamanders on the right fire on his salamanders and only 1 salamander and 4 handlers are left. The salamanders on the left try to shoot at his other skinks but ALL of this misfire but luckily only eat 4 handlers. In combat the jav skinks to 2 wounds to each other and it's a drawn battle. I kill 1 camo skink and he kills two of mine, I run and he catches me.


Turn 2 Him:

Terradons charge flank of cav on the left, and the lone salamander charges the flank of the cav on the right. The swarms charge the skinks. His stegadon moves closer, and skinks and camo skinks move towards my left saurus block. His priest miscasts and is removed from the game. His camo skinks kill 3 saurus. Stegadon hits slann but doesn't wound. The terradons kill 1 cav so it is a drawn combat and they hit and run. The jav skinks kill 1 of each other and it is a drawn combat again. The swarms crush the skinks and overrun into the cav. The salamander kills 1 cav, but the swarms to nothing. In return my remaining cav do 7 wounds to the swarms and send both of them running (I do not chase). The salamander runs off the board and the swarms stop just before his cav.

Turn 3 Me:

Cav on the left charge the flank of his unit on the left (the one with JSoD). Saurus turn to face camo skinks. Skinks move into trees. Everything sets their sights on the cav exceot for the spear saurus getting ready for a stegadon charge. My first magic missle against the cav learns about the mirror shield, but it doesn't rebound and I kill 1 cav. The rest of the magic goes into almost wiping out the other unit of skinks and getting 3 rerolls. I also get wall of fire on the cav which kills another 1. The first slamanders misfire twice and the second unit misfires once but the rerolls fix that and I kills 4 of the enemy cav. My skinks finish off his other priest. In combat he kills 2 of mine and I only kill one of his and he runs me down. My cav kill 3 of his saurus which has me winning by one and he runs and is ran down (I'm just short of the other saurus). The other saurus block panics and runs.


Turn 3 Him: Stegadon charges flank of slann's saurus (oh oh...). Swarms and saurus rally. On the left the terradons and two units of jav skinks move up to make trouble for my saurus block. The camo skinks try and run around me but can't get out of LOS. His shooting kills 4 more saurus. I combat he only rolls a '1' for impact hits (so 2) and after all the attacks kills 6 saurus so I lose by 4 but make my break test (thank god).

Turn 4 Me:

Cav charge the remaining skinks who flee and I run into the forest.The saurus charge the camo skinks. Spear saurus turn to face rear of stegadon. Slann moves to be base to base with stegadon. A lightning bolt wounds a terradon, and firery blast kills three of them (they panic and flee). Wall of fire kills last normal cav and wounds scarvet. Salamanders on the left wipe out jav skinks that had beaten mine which makes the terradons run further. Other salamanders fire on cav and kill the scarvet. (So the lone oldblood is trapped behind the swarms). In combat I kill all but 2 camo skinks but they make their insane courage and hold. He fail for the bait and attacked the slann and only did 1 wound (skink), lost combat and ran into spear saurus behind him.

At this point he gave up.


So there you have it. If you are using lizardmen go magic heavy : )

Thank you for reading.

Malorian
22-03-2008, 17:45
Just looked over the rules for jungle swarms and it turns out they are unbreakable (neither of us had ever used them before) so that could have made a difference.

His cav wouldn't had room to charge that turn anyway (and he wouldn't have moved them thanks to wall of flame, but it just shows that even when you have two of the same team facing each other you can still make mistakes.

alextroy
22-03-2008, 21:38
The first slamanders misfire twice and the second unit misfires once but the rerolls fix that and I kills 4 of the enemy cav.

Second Sign of Amul can't be used to reroll Artillery Dice. It only works for rolls to Hit, Rolls to Wound, Armor saves and Ward Save rolls. That might have made difference also.

Malorian
22-03-2008, 23:29
Really? I was using printed off cards rather than the book so it might have been simplified... (my bad)

alextroy
23-03-2008, 16:19
Might have been simplified. Was more likely the 6th edition version of the spell where you could do that.

Pavic
01-04-2008, 01:43
It appears that your army totals 3,055 points, while I can only come up with about 2,963 points for your opponent.

I maxed out magic item points on all of his Saurus characters, gave Itzl to the appropriate models, gave them all light armour and shield, and even gave the each of them the max number of spawnings (using the highest point spawnings available) but I still can't reach 3k. I am not sure what JSoD stands for. Perhaps one was an Army Battle Standard Bearer for another 25 points and had the totem of prophecy, which would bring the total to 3,013. However, my money says that you are either forgetting something he used, or he was playing short of 3K.

The fact does remain though that you used more than 3k in points.

Also, the list he played looks pretty terrible to me. Maybe you had a lack of models or what not, but he certainly shouldn't have brought the swarms, which are currently far to expensive. The large number of Chameleons is also a little strange and not really worth the cost. For the points of the swarms alone he could have bought a carnosaur, with 30 pts to spare (not to mention the 37 he would get back on the cold one). Also, why no Kroxigors? I can't even imagine a combat list without these beasts.

The 16 count blocks of saurus are also out of place. Are you still using the 6th rules where four wide gives rank bonuses?

Malorian
01-04-2008, 05:45
It appears that your army totals 3,055 points, while I can only come up with about 2,963 points for your opponent.

I maxed out magic item points on all of his Saurus characters, gave Itzl to the appropriate models, gave them all light armour and shield, and even gave the each of them the max number of spawnings (using the highest point spawnings available) but I still can't reach 3k. I am not sure what JSoD stands for. Perhaps one was an Army Battle Standard Bearer for another 25 points and had the totem of prophecy, which would bring the total to 3,013. However, my money says that you are either forgetting something he used, or he was playing short of 3K.

The fact does remain though that you used more than 3k in points.

Also, the list he played looks pretty terrible to me. Maybe you had a lack of models or what not, but he certainly shouldn't have brought the swarms, which are currently far to expensive. The large number of Chameleons is also a little strange and not really worth the cost. For the points of the swarms alone he could have bought a carnosaur, with 30 pts to spare (not to mention the 37 he would get back on the cold one). Also, why no Kroxigors? I can't even imagine a combat list without these beasts.

The 16 count blocks of saurus are also out of place. Are you still using the 6th rules where four wide gives rank bonuses?

2nd gen slann w/ BSB, diadem of power, plaque of tepok (535)
(1st spell of death, life, and fire. Firery blast, wall of fire)
Lvl 2 priest w/ rod of storm (135)
Lvl 2 priest w/ blood statuette (130)
Lvl 2 priest w/ 2 dispel scrolls (150)
Lvl 2 priest w/ scout (110)

10 skinks w/ javs, scout (70)
10 skinks w/ javs, scout (70)
10 skinks w/ blowpipes (60)
10 skinks w/ blowpipes (60)
10 skinks w/ blowpipes (60)

20 saurus w/ full command (270)
20 saurus w/ full command (270)
20 saurus w/ full command, spears, quetzl (340)

5 saurus cav (175)
5 saurus cav (175)

3 salamanders (195)
3 salamanders (195)

Total: 3000

Now I don't know about where you come from, but around here if you are calling someone a cheater you better be right. As you can see my lists is not over, it is exactly 3000 points.

Might I also add that if you don't even know what a JSoD is that maybe you shouldn't be sticking your nose in things you don't understand.

Pavic
01-04-2008, 12:38
Now I don't know about where you come from, but around here if you are calling someone a cheater you better be right. As you can see my lists is not over, it is exactly 3000 points.

Might I also add that if you don't even know what a JSoD is that maybe you shouldn't be sticking your nose in things you don't understand.

No need to get offended, as I did not intend to say that you are a cheater. I think everyone has made point errors at one time or another. I am still trying to figure out how I got 3,055 though. I added everything together several times before even making the initial post, which I rightly feared would be interpreted as a call out, and I consistently returned 3,055 as the total.

I still freely admit that I have no idea what JSoD stands for.

*Finally found the JSoD thing.*

I do want to know though, what did you think of the list he brought?

Malorian
01-04-2008, 14:21
He was an old player and his list was from back in the day when you could get ranks of four.

His list still wasn't bad though and could have done a lot better for him if he had used it better. (This was his first game of the year)

TheSanityAssassin
04-04-2008, 05:54
Now I don't want to make this seem insulting or anything, because it isn't intended to, but this game to me illustrates a big problem I'm starting to see in developing Warhammer communities, where Magic trumps might. It's a true fact that a list with 12+ levels of magic will blow most things right off the board given even decent dice rolling. The problem is, lots of people start figuring this out, and our local gaming turns into "lets pitch casting and dispel dice for 6 turns then call it", which soon leads to people getting bored with the game.

I try capping magic levels on tourneys and the like, but then I'm faced with a lot of complaints from armies like VC's and Tomb Kings where there isn't much of a choice.

I'm really glad to have seen this report, and I'm glad you guys did it, but Magic Phase escalations like this really scare me when they start to pop up as a long time organizer.

PS: Yes, I'm aware that I'm really over-reacting...it's late and I've been puzzling over set ups for my next tourney...please don't take this personally. I've just had a similar magic heavy list start to blow away everyone in my gaming community, and have been hearing everyone talking about dropping 2 or 3 blocks of troops in order to get more magic D....and you get the picture hahaha.

I need to go to bed.

Peegore
04-04-2008, 10:04
An interesting twist on a battle, an intentionally Magic Hvy vs Combat Hvy game.

I'd like to see this applied to armies that don't usually use them builds ( i.e Empire 'Magic Heavy' vs Vampires 'combat heavy' ) purely out of curiosity, and seeing them work well outside their comfort zones...maybe I'll do my group a scenario based on it!

As always an interesting report! Keep up the good work.

Peegore

senorcardgage
13-04-2008, 04:46
Just like to add that I saw the game, and the combat heavy guy was pretty greasy. He totally tooled his list out for magic defence, whereas Malorian's list was set in stone. Kinda surprising that the magic army still won!

Heinrich Jäger
17-04-2008, 07:59
If I was playing heavy CC I would take the special spawnings that are online, that would make them magic resistant. sure it costs extra, but you won't get pounded by a slann