PDA

View Full Version : O&G against Vampire count



Essia
23-03-2008, 15:31
Today I had the pleasure of playing the new vampire army.

*RANT*
With my horde style O&G army, usually relying on my numbers to win combat the VC army blew me away...... I simply cannot kill the entire unit of skellie to prevent him from restoring his unit. even eith 7 dispell dice (2 basic+ l level one shaman with a staff of sneaky stealing+ 3 from Mork's banner)

I can't stop him restoring his skeletons, graveguards.(Roughly 3d6 skillies pop out each turn)
The fly vampire with -2 to shoot can't be hit by my spear chukkas(4 of them), goes on to kill my warmachine units.

I just don't see how to gain an advantage, considering my army is themed to have no night goblins(thus no fanatics, squigs etc)

I admit I am not a good player, I have much to learn.

So tell me? what can I do while keeping my army themed?
(so far reading back the only thing I see is kill the fast units and gang up on the blocks)

oh, he has 4 vampires, a 400 point lord with 2+ magic armour and 4+ ward save(10 power dice a turn). staring out with few skillies(3 units) but builds upon them quickly enough. a large unit of graveguard, blood knight(that I managed to avoid... heh heh). Some ghouls and 2 units of direwolves.

Urgat
23-03-2008, 17:20
Really, I don't know what to say... excepted I'm not looking forward to playing them with my gob army... I just don't know how to take them, honestly, my only experience regarding undead is an army led a necro, which won't exist anymore now.

neXus6
23-03-2008, 19:54
Yeah my 1500pt army is almost rebuilt after a long period of neglect and what I've seen and talked about with VC players I'm kinda at a loss just now.

Of course once I get a game I'll just go with "Da Plann" i.e. Scream waaagh and hope they keel over...and stay that way. :p

him_15
23-03-2008, 21:00
As a VC player, I can tell you what our weakness is:
1. Undead are expensive and weak solider, you are likely to outnumber him and win in hand-to-hand battle with your superior Orc.
2. Do not shoot infantry, they raise faster than you can shoot them down. Instead, try to shoot their wolves and any lone character.
3. Although you said you have no night goblins, but they are one of the most effective unit in an Orc army...squig and fanastic can be unexpectedly harmful to the poor undead.
4. Try to bring the general down, and let the whole undead army crumble to dust, his general is likely to be staying in his grave guard unit in the centre of the battle field. Try to attack the unit from all direction (black Orc, chariot, flyer, etc.), win the combat and let him grave guard and his lord disappear by combat resolution.
5, More importantly, tell us what you have got and your army list

heinrichvoncarstein
23-03-2008, 23:46
As a vc player i can also tell you some more things:
1. Get boar boys and some dispel scrolls, you dispel all attempt to heal the skellies and charge them in turn 2 and wipe them out, that way he can't raise them back. :evilgrin:
2. If the vamp lord has a 4+ ward save he also suffers from stupidity, try to use this to your advantage.
3. Honestly i don't know how to get rid of the flying vamp. Try blasting him with stuff that doesn't need to hit i.e: cannons, magic....

English 2000
24-03-2008, 02:44
While I commend you for trying to take a themed army, you are handicapping yourself severely.

Trolls may help, perhaps a giant too.

Use wolf riders to your advantage - units with light armour and shields lose the fast cav reform but are fast enough to hit a flank and hit hard enough to kill enough skellies that combined with their 4+ save you won't lose too many wolves in return.

A unit of orcs in the front with choppa and shield and wolves with light armour in the side should see of a skellie unit - assuming you can pursuade both units to charge - not easy with animosity and fear.

Lord_Byron
24-03-2008, 03:27
Try using the staff of sorcery instead of or in addition to the staff of sneaky stealin. The +1 to dispel will be invaluable against the legions of 1d6 raise spells.

Giants are a great choice against the undead. No shooting.

Try bringing 2 pump wagons as 1 of your rare choices to combat the flying vampire. Deploy them behind your lines, and in front of the spear chukkas, and just run them left and right until the vamp gets close enough to splatter. For less than 100 points for the both of them they make a great deterrent for flying warmachine hunters.

Are there any oppositions to savage orcs in your theme? They are immune to psychology, so no fear or terror. With additional weapons and frenzy they will do alot of active combat resolution against the weak undead soldiers.

Try bringing a unit of savage orc boar boyz with the waaagh! banner and your general in the unit. Shagga's screaming sword is a good weapon for him as the undead tend to cluster characters together for protection. Try to work your deployment so that you can set your savage boar boyz up across the table from his general's bodyguard. Concentrate all your firepower on that unit in turn one to bring it down to more manageable numbers, then call a waaagh! (so you don't squabble) in turn two and charge with the boars. Call and accept challenges with the savage orc boss so that your warboss is free to trash the unit. You should be able to put out enough pain to completely destroy that unit and attached characters in one go.

Savage boar boy big uns might be in order if your opponent likes to use grave guard as his bodyguard.

Remember that savage orc boar boyz are vulnerable to baiting, so use your wolves and spiders (or giant) wisely to counter those pesky charge redirections. Raised zombie units formed up at an angle can also pull your savages away, so don't let those spells get through assuming your savages will plough straight through them in one turn and overrun into your primary target. If you do get redirected, just content yourself with smashing a few secondary units, turn and come up on the vampire count from the flank or rear. That vamp count is the game breaker. Annihilate him/her and it's all over.

Dranthar
24-03-2008, 04:24
VC magic is always going to hard to shut down, so the trick is to only stop the spells that are going to cripple you, particularly van hels and any key raise dead spells.

While VCs are very resistant to shooting thanks to their invocations, your war machines definitely have their place. The obvious choice is to target non-infantry units that are otherwise hard to raise. Failing that, a few regular hits on one or more infantry blocks will force the VC player to spend power dice bringing those units back up to strength, making it harder for him to cast the spells you REALLY want to stop. Also be aware of the short ranges for his necromancy spells (12"), and the fact that only certain characters will be able to raise units above their starting strength.

Also you'll often find that the only model casting the offensive spells (wind of death, curseof years etc) is the Vampire Lord. If you force him into wastinghis power dice on invocations then he won't be abel to cast those spells.
Specifically on Van hels, a good idea is to assume that any one of your opponents units will pull off a second 8" move with vanhels, and move own your units accordingly. This should help prevent any flank charges and the like.

As for everything outside the magic phase, Fear is going to be a pain, so you need to make sure you have contingencies for the odd failed fear test. Try to ensure you have multiple units charging at a time, and avoid exposing flanks if you at all can.

Hitting your opponents units in the flank will spell their doom. Even if he's able to keep them at strength using invocation he'll still need to spend alot of power dice to keep it up and so long as he recieves no backup or you are able to bring in your own backup, he'll be fighting a losing battle.

Not taking the NG units is a real pity - squig herds and squig hoppers are both perfect for taking on VCs - they're immune to psychology and they put out a very large number of high strength, high WS attacks. Also for obvious reasons giants should be great against undead, as are trolls.

Failing that, take savage orcs! With so many attacks they should carve up undead units like nobody's business.

Braad
24-03-2008, 09:05
As mentioned, savage boar boyz might do you some good. In my opinion mainly because they are immune to psychology.

Also, I sometimes include a dogs of war cannon (of course converted with a goblin crew, for some reason no-one seems to object I'm not using humans...) and this really pays of against certain annoying things, like lonely characters, characters and monsters. Can also be nice against blood knights, I killed 3 out of 5 chosen khorne chaos knights last friday in one shot, mainly because the shot didn't reach far enough for the other two.

Against annoying characters with high armour and ward saves, you might try the risky but fun combo of a gobbo boss on wolf with wollopa's one hit wunda (S10 kills nearly any AS) and the tricksy trinket (no ward save). Make sure you send along some other stuff, since he is still not uber-powerfull, and the tricksy trinket negates his ward save against other attacks as well as long as it is in base to base.

Best way in the end is always fight a bit more, gain experience, see what works and try to cope with your handicap due to playing themed armies (which is a good thing IMO).

Urgat
24-03-2008, 09:12
Use wolf riders to your advantage - units with light armour and shields lose the fast cav reform but are fast enough to hit a flank and hit hard enough to kill enough skellies that combined with their 4+ save you won't lose too many wolves in return.

To my knowledge and experience, basing any tactic on goblins charging fear causing units is doomed to fail.

Braad
24-03-2008, 21:39
To my knowledge and experience, basing any tactic on goblins charging fear causing units is doomed to fail.

That's not the point.
It's the idea of it that matters.

Anyway, a goblin big boss still has the same leadership as a normal orc, so its not that bad...

W0lf
24-03-2008, 21:42
Savage-ify tyour army.

Savage orcs get Immune to PSY and +1 attack.

Oh and the double edged sword to frenzy??? Well its pretty minimal when he has no baiting units.

Conotor
24-03-2008, 21:57
Today I had the pleasure of playing the new vampire army.

*RANT*
With my horde style O&G army, usually relying on my numbers to win combat the VC army blew me away...... I simply cannot kill the entire unit of skellie to prevent him from restoring his unit. even eith 7 dispell dice (2 basic+ l level one shaman with a staff of sneaky stealing+ 3 from Mork's banner)


He can't replenish units in combat. You tell him that next time he tries to maintain a skelle unit you are beating on.

Jack of Blades
24-03-2008, 22:22
He can't replenish units in combat. You tell him that next time he tries to maintain a skelle unit you are beating on.

I'm pretty sure he'd pick up a BRB and then use another BRB as an Additional Hand Weapon and gain Frenzy, Hatred and ASF if you tried telling him that.
Think that's illegal? show me the page reference :evilgrin:

Dranthar
25-03-2008, 01:30
I'm pretty sure he'd pick up a BRB and then use another BRB as an Additional Hand Weapon and gain Frenzy, Hatred and ASF if you tried telling him that.
Think that's illegal? show me the page reference :evilgrin:

Seconded - the intention of the spell is blindingly obvious. Unfortunately the Invocation rules weren't absolutely clear on the matter but justifying the last paragraph when you can't raise models into combat requires so much rules lawyering that it's not even close to being intuitive.

Don't try rules lawyering your way around it. It's much better to win because of your tactics than to win because you figuratively raped a rules loophole.

decker_cky
25-03-2008, 01:54
I'm pretty sure he'd pick up a BRB and then use another BRB as an Additional Hand Weapon and gain Frenzy, Hatred and ASF if you tried telling him that.
Think that's illegal? show me the page reference :evilgrin:

Actually, better for him to attack with a grammar book, specifically focusing on the differences between the past and future tense. Then follow up with a dictionary, citing the difference between 'specifically' and 'explicitly'. You'll find that either one of those is enough to cast IoN into combat.

Sangria
25-03-2008, 08:42
Most skelly units are nasty due to the vampire in them. I picked up a tip from Avian's orc & goblin tactics: I have an Black Orc BSB in my boyz unit with the Best Basha and the Effigy of Mork. He takes chalanges. With WS7 T5 and -1 to hit he's a tough cookie to crack. Without those wounds the vamp inflict the Orcs wil probably win combat.

Like previousely mentioned, squig hoppers and pump wagons are great and cheap units to help get that extra combat res you need. Also to protect your war machines.

I personally never use bolt throwers (I suck at to hit rolls) However I've gotten pretty good at guessing ranges, so my 2 rock lobbers and doom diver do wonders :D I love splatting lone characters with a big rock^^

But Orcs vs Vampires is always tough, especially if you can't make an all frenzy army :)

warlord hack'a
25-03-2008, 08:52
chariots might work, keep them in the generals ld bubble then charge them in combination with a big block of orcs. They can rack up a nice CR bonus which will pay off double due to crumbling. Also, they will work wonders against the flying vampire that is eating your warmachines..

Talking about warmachines, maybe a stonethrower (versus big blocks) or doom diver (versus his fast cav, flyers and knights) will help you.

So I would drop 2 chukkas and buy an orc chariot for that and then get a doomdiver.

Essia
25-03-2008, 17:29
Thanks all for the advice, I think I will try some savage orcs and see how my game turns out. The giant was pretty excellent in the game, managed to jump up and down on the blood knight which was pretty amusing.

So clarify the rules for invovation for me, each time the 1D6 is successfully cast, he can raise either 1D6 skeleton/ zombies. Or 1 cavalry or one wound on a character? Does this work in combat?

My list is roughly:
Lord & Heros
Orc Warboss - Amulet of protectyness, Akrit Axe, Iron Gnashas
Goblin big boss - BSB, Mork's Spirit Totem
Goblin Shaman - Staff of sneaky stealin

Core
23 orc boyz, Musician
25 Orc Boyz, Full Command [x2]
30 Goblins, Shield, Standard and Musician
5 Wolf Riders, Musician [x4]

Special
10 Black Orcs, Musician, Boss.
2 Goblin Spear Chukka [x2]
5 Boar Boyz, Full Command, Gork's Waagh Banner.

Rare
Doom Diver
Giant

Lord_Byron
25-03-2008, 18:28
Invocation of Nehek CAN be cast into close combat. It raises 1D6+4 zombies and can increase the unit above starting size, 1D6 skeletons, ghouls, fell bats and bat swarms and can only raise the unit above starting size if the vampire casting it has the appropriate vampire power. It raises 1d6 grave guard and can never increase them beyond starting size. It raises 1 model/wound of anything else, and cannot raise anything else beyond the unit's starting size.

I regret to inform you that a goblin BSB cannot take Mork's Spirit Totem. It is an orc only magic item. The effects will work in a goblin unit, but an orc big boss needs to be bearing the totem.

Shamfrit
25-03-2008, 19:19
Take more goblins, and use the Red Raggidy Banner to help deal with Fear tests.

Next?

decker_cky
25-03-2008, 21:06
Actual IoN raise 1D6 infantry, and I believe fellbats fall under this (there's a chart at the end of the book).

Karhedron
25-03-2008, 22:10
Actual IoN raise 1D6 infantry, and I believe fellbats fall under this (there's a chart at the end of the book).
Hmm, Fellbats are multi-wound flying monsters. I must check the chart but I would be very suprised if they count as infantry (even just for the purpose of IoN). Similarly I think you would only get 1 wound back on bat swarms too.

tom1354788
25-03-2008, 22:10
i would go for character assasination, ignore the whole army apart from the general, focus everything you have to bring him down use the eadbut spell, use a suicide bomber goblin, then come in with a wyvern, the rest of the army should deploy on the base line.

Dranthar
25-03-2008, 23:26
Take more goblins, and use the Red Raggidy Banner to help deal with Fear tests.

The Red Raggedy Banner only works against panic checks. Not fear, not terror, just panic.


Hmm, Fellbats are multi-wound flying monsters. I must check the chart but I would be very suprised if they count as infantry (even just for the purpose of IoN). Similarly I think you would only get 1 wound back on bat swarms too.

Bat Swarms count as infantry for IoN. I don't have the book with me right now but I'm guessing fell bats do too if they fall under the infantry category in the book.

It's not a big deal really. Neither can negate ranks, they're both not hard to kill and their only advantage is mobility - meaning there's a fair chance that they won't be in range of a spell caster anyway.


i would go for character assasination, ignore the whole army apart from the general, focus everything you have to bring him down use the eadbut spell, use a suicide bomber goblin, then come in with a wyvern, the rest of the army should deploy on the base line.

IMO, devoting absolutely everything to killing the general is a really bad idea. If you don't have a contingency plan, you're essentially handing your opponent an easy win after you fail to kill him with whatever one-hit-wonder you decide to throw at him.

sonofguilliman
04-04-2008, 23:10
I destroy undead or used to anyway (haven't played in a while) with a very similiar list. The key is to never charge alone you. Setup up a flank attack; removing the rank bonus is HUGE! You are going to kill more of them then you will lose, which will make you outnumber them more than likely. Add your flank bonus and ranks and that should destroy like half of the unit lol. I use savage orc boar boys for this (screened by wolf riders so I don't have to worry about frenzy) but regular should work well.