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Saben
24-03-2008, 04:49
I think I've got this right, but any non-magic missile spell can be cast into combat provided you have line of sight, correct? And if you are on a Large Target you have line of sight over your own units, right?

So if you are mounted on a monster, you can cast, say, Forked Lightning, over the heads of your own men at the unit they are engaged with?

Also, if you are in combat, on a Large target you can see over the unit you are fighting with, so you have line of sight to units out of combat. Does this mean you can cast over the unit you are engaged with to the unit behind it?

Also, if you are just a man-sized model but on the flank of a unit engaged in combat does this mean you have line of sight to anything in your arc of vision and are hence able to cast out of combat?

OOOOO XXXXX
OOOOO XXXXX
OOOOO XXXXX
AAAAM
AAAAA
AAAAA

In the above example the Mage (M) is engaged with his unit (A) against unit O, he has line of sight to unit X, does this mean he can fire off, say Rule of Burning Iron against it?

Now what if unit X was engaged in combat against a unit themselves?

Saben
24-03-2008, 05:07
Okay, so I missed the line on page 107. "Wizards cannot cast spells at units engaged in close combat, unless the spell only affects the caster himself of the spell's description specifies otherwise)"

So you can only cast at an engaged unit if the spell says so (eg Word of Pain). So my first example should have included a spell such as Word of Pain rather than Forked Lightning.

Also, this raises another question, however. When a spell (such as Rule of Burning Iron) says "no targeting restrictions apply except that the Wizard needs line of sight to the target) does being in combat count as a targeting restriction that is waived?

Also, strictly speaking you can only cast spells into combat if they only affect the Wizard himself (or specify otherwise). What about a spell that says it affects a unit of your choice; does it work if you decide to cast on:
a) the Wizard and his mount
b) the Wizard and his unit
c) just the Wizard (because he's a single character by himself)

Yehoshua
24-03-2008, 07:34
As to the first of your new questions: no, I believe that's not a targeting restriction, but a general restriction.

Compare the wording of Spirit of the Forge, which has almost identical effects but a more clear wording. I think the Burning Iron language is intended to reinforce the idea that you can pick any model out of the unit, as opposed to telling you that it can be cast into close combat.

GW's general practice is to say "even if engaged in close combat" if they want a spell to have that flexibility.

As to your second question, a mounted wizard and his mount are a unit, if they are otherwise alone. A wizard alone on foot is a unit. A wizard that joins a unit is part of that unit, as is any mount he might have.
Each of those could be affected, as a combination, by a spell affecting a unit of your choice.

Tarax
24-03-2008, 09:36
Saben, don't look to much in the wording of the rules. If your wizard is mounted on a large creature and in close combat you would cast a spell at another target, you would be frowned upon.
Nowhere in the rules (as far as I could find) does it say you can't. You can imagine the wizard is to busy fighting one unit (in CC) and is not focusing on anything else, whence the rule that certain spells can be cast on the wizard himself or the unit he is fighting.

Close combat does block Line of Sight even if the wizard is not engaged. It's not another Easter Egg you have found.

Saben
25-03-2008, 02:21
Yehoshua- yeah that sounds about right. It can be used to snipe individual models but not cast into combat.

For the second question, well I think you misunderstood slightly. I was just wondering if a wizard can cast a spell on himself while in combat if its normal target is a "unit" or if he can cast a spell at his own unit if he is engaged in combat. The rules say that he only target himself- so I assume that excludes his unit. Yet if he's solo he can cast the exact same spell... Which seems anomalous.

For example RaW- a wizard can cast Portent of Far on himself while in combat- but if he is with a unit he can't cast it...

Tarax- I don't agree with your interpretation of what is "reasonable" so we're left with the rules. I think it is fine for a Vampire mounted on a Dragon to cast a Lightning Bolt over the heads of his enemy to another squad that is looking threatening. But do the rules say that is possible? Not for Magic Missiles but for other spells that do damage but aren't Magic Missiles it seems possible.


Close combat does block Line of Sight even if the wizard is not engaged. It's not another Easter Egg you have found.

Page number?

The only relevant information I can find is on page 9 "Interposing Models":
"This does not apply if a target behind normal-sized models (such as Men or Dwarfs) is defined as a large target in its special rules. Large targets can draw a line of sight over interposing models that are not large targets themselves. Orcs or Goblins can't block line of sight to a Giant (large target), for example!"

If there is something else that says close-combat blocks line of sight (particularly for Large Targets) please refer me to it.

Masque
25-03-2008, 06:51
For the second question, well I think you misunderstood slightly. I was just wondering if a wizard can cast a spell on himself while in combat if its normal target is a "unit" or if he can cast a spell at his own unit if he is engaged in combat. The rules say that he only target himself- so I assume that excludes his unit. Yet if he's solo he can cast the exact same spell... Which seems anomalous.

He can only target himself, not a unit he is with. Which does allow some spells if he is alone that he would not otherwise be able to cast in combat. While strange, that does seem to be what the rules allow.


For example RaW- a wizard can cast Portent of Far on himself while in combat- but if he is with a unit he can't cast it...

Portent of Far is a bad example. It is specifically allowed to be cast into combat.

SuperBeast
25-03-2008, 10:32
If there is a wording, it won't be specifically regarding large targets.
BRB not to hand, but all LT does is remove the ability for models to block LOS.

As an aside, I believe the Slann's rules states that he can cast spells requiring LOS when in a unit involved in combat, UNLESS he is in base contact with the enemy.

The relevant passage - if it's there (BRB not to hand) - would be under the standard LOS rules I would have thought?

Saben
25-03-2008, 13:12
There's no rules regarding combat and LOS.

The only reason combats block line of sight is because man sized models block LOS to other man sized models.

To a Large Target, who is immune to such LOS restrictions I'd assume LOS is not blocked...

And yes, I'm always coming up with bad examples. I need to read more thoroughly :p

SuperBeast
25-03-2008, 13:41
I'm not referring to combat blocking LOS because of models - I'm referring to being in combat blocking LOS.

Otherwise, a mage in the front rank of a unit that has been flank charged is able to chuck out LOS spells...

Greyfire
25-03-2008, 15:06
Otherwise, a mage in the front rank of a unit that has been flank charged is able to chuck out LOS spells...
I haven't seen any restrictions on that, other than you can't cast magic missile type spells. It hasn't always felt right, other than for a Slann (which benefits from both being a large target and from using Skink Priests for targetting), but I haven't found a rule to prevent it.

This editions magic rules are so focused on the target of the spell, it seems like there are relatively few restrictions on the caster.

So a Uranon's Thunderbolt from the wizard on the opposite side of a flanked unit can be cast on a target he can see, as far as I can tell. Anyone got a rule to contradict it (please let me know - I'm not vested in either answer, I just want to play fair)?

Many thanks,

-=- Steve

Saben
27-03-2008, 07:59
That's the way I saw it, Greyfire...

If you can point out a page number, SuperBeast I'd be glad.

I do have a vested interest, but I like playing fair, too. I'm happy to accept defeat if there's a rule against what I said...

But I like the idea of "Battle Mages" which means I want characters able to cast while in combat as much as possible while whacking on people with swords :p It's why I like Vampires.

DeathlessDraich
27-03-2008, 10:29
pg 110 - Magic missiles cannot be cast if the wizard's unit is in combat

pg 107 - Spells cannot be cast into combat unless specifically stated e.g. Gork'll fix it , Shield of Saphery etc,

Exceptions:
1) Skaven

2) pg 26 - Accidental effect e.g. Spells requiring a template (Black horror sometimes - if units are touching) or has a pre-determined area effect - e.g. Comet
Could be in this category
a) Burning head
b) Howler Wind against Skaven shooting

3) There are *absolutely* "no targeting restrictions" e.g. Steal Soul

4) Rule of Burning iron - "no targeting restrictions except LOS" - probably depends on your interpretation of pg 107.

but probably not the Slaanesh and Orc spells which isolate characters

EvC
27-03-2008, 13:21
3 and 4 I don't think can go into combat, but I've played it either way myself and it has been submitted as a question for the FAQ. Hopefully we'll see an answer eventually.

Line of sight is determined for a model in combat in exactly the same way as for a model outside of combat. So an unengaged Wizard in a unit in combat can cast LoS spells, as can a large targe.

Atrahasis
27-03-2008, 13:29
A general removal of targeting restrictions is not a specific permission to cast into combat, which is what the rules require.

Bleakwood
27-03-2008, 13:29
Even if it wasnt plainly legal, I dont see the problem with chars on a LT mount casting out of combat, thats what I usually play with.
There is this one guy who mounts his DE high sorceress on a Manticore for exactly this reason. Makes it alot safer for the sorceress to be in combat, as she cant be shot at(except for skaven) and most basic infantry wont be able to strike back much.
Paying 200 pt for a mount that's much less useful for her than for a combat char just to get this ability certaintly dosnt seem overpowered.

I can see that a vampire lord on a zombie dragon benefits the most from this, but when you have spent THAT many points on something that can die to a single shot from a 35 pt spear chukka then, by all means, let him have it.

EvC
27-03-2008, 14:12
Well, there are no spells in the Lore of Vampires that require Line of Sight, except Gaze of Nagash, which is a magic missile and so cannot be cast whilst the Vamp's in combat. If he's got forbidden lore though, who knows..?

Saben
29-03-2008, 10:16
Well, there are no spells in the Lore of Vampires that require Line of Sight, except Gaze of Nagash, which is a magic missile and so cannot be cast whilst the Vamp's in combat. If he's got forbidden lore though, who knows..?

Well, thinking Lore of Heavens and throwing Lightning Bolts from the back of a Dragon over the heads of the unit I'm fighting to the threatening War Machine at the back.