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DarkStarr
24-03-2008, 07:48
Well here is my list im thinking of taking to the next round of mighty empires I think its pretty unstopable but i would like your comments on it, Last time i lost in a 1000 points vs dwarvs by a narrow victory because he had 7 dispell dice and i had 5 power dice due to his rune of balance and only got off 2 spells, this time around I plan going mega magic to summon and heal all battle long. we will be playin 2k points and im not sure who my opponent will be.

1.Manfred von carsein: w power stone and Skull staff Ill put him in my grave guard unit.560 points

2.vampire: talisman of the lycni, blood drinker, avatar of death, dark acolite ill put him in my unit of 10 dire wolves and try to get the charge on the first turn casting vanhels danse macabre on the unit. 200 points

3. vampire: tomb blade,black periapt, dark acolyte, lord of dead, he will go in my unit of skellitons wich I plan on boosting them up on the first turn w mafred casting invocation of nehek on a 2+ I should have no problem achieving this. 185 points

4. vampire: vampire: ghoulkin, power stone, dark acolyte avatar of death, he will go in my ghoul unit I hope to get a first round charge w them as well 200 points.

5. black coach, plent of dice to up its power a bit and just kicks but.

6. 18 grave guard with banner of burrows and great weapons, manfred w them.

7. 10 skellitons with a musician and standard bearer. 92 points.

8. 10 wolves with a doom wolf 90 points.

9.10 ghouls with a crypt ghast 88 points.

10. corpse cart with load stone.

Basic plan first turn is to up my unit count and get my ghouls and wolves into combat, get my graveguard unit 16 inches up and pop out some zombies right behind the enemy depeding on war machines or right infront of them, and depending on dispells and what not try to cast wind of undeath and get some spirit hosts out there as well. starting with 16 power dice and 2 power stones I hope to have a very sucsesfull first round of magic ill burn both power stones right in the first turn no matter what to try to burn out all his dispell scrolls and cause as much damage as possible, and the rest should be history.

The_Warsmith
24-03-2008, 08:04
you've got an illegal army, dire wolves and corpse carts don't count towords core minimum

DarkStarr
24-03-2008, 08:09
Ok ill lose blood drinker and banner of burrows bring in 10 skellies for 80 points.

CthulhuDalek
24-03-2008, 08:22
How many points is the list overall? You put some values up, but then the others don't all have it.

I myself am constructing a huge vampire counts list and the biggest problem is having enough core choices. I want to summon them all, and save my models, but I'm going to run out of models to substitute!

I am liking the lcyni vamp though!

The_Warsmith
24-03-2008, 08:26
the thing i don't like about this army is that it's so small and looks quite fragile, your magic will help you out but i feel the dwarves will have enough firepower to destroy or at least badly wound most of your units, if you can get those first turn charges off then great but what if you don't get the first turn?

i think you should invest in summon ghouls, you can raise skellies and zombies but the ghouls unit size is stuck at 10 so even if they dwarves don't shoot them all combat res will see them dead very fast, without a banner the +3 points for ranks becomes vital

DarkStarr
24-03-2008, 08:36
total points come out to 1989 Yeah I see your point that in the very first turn i have low numbers and I will most deffiantly lose some modles to shooting if i lose the first round but at that range I doubt ill lose a whole unit, and with manfred being able to bring back units with a 2 plus and grave guard on a 3 plus I think ill have no problem building up my numbers. Well getting the charge off is no guarantee for sure but the wolves have a good shot with a 18 inch run and then another 8 gives them 26 inches I doubt any opponent will see this coming on the first turn. At any rate Ill sure put some pressure on them and hopefully have some rased units near by to block counter charge lanes w some tarpit zombies as a road block. So the bigges obsticle is surviving the first round of shooting providing i lose the roll, But i think the sheer amount of magic I have will get me back in fighting shape and in rounds to come will be a huge advanteg in keeping my units going and summoning.

Eisenhorn
24-03-2008, 09:42
you can never cast a spell on a 2+ even with modifiers. Check the the rule book under "minimum 3 to cast" in the magic section.

I think your army is way to low on numbers. you can save quite a few points if you make your own "lord of magic death" instead of using mannfred

Something like this might work

Vampire lord lv3
powers: Master of the black arts, forbidden lore (vampire or metal if your fighting dwarfs ;)), lord of the dead
items: The flayed hauberk, Talisman of lynchi, Wrist bands of black gold, black periapt.

435 points and he will be just as good as manfred to raise and heal in a support role. If you are not fussy about rolling for his spells then go with dark acolyte instead of forbidden lore,

Then mount your lynchi vampire on a hell steed and have him march with the ghouls that guarantees you a first turn charge with him, and its a flying charge as well. So you can go after the war machine crews.

DarkStarr
24-03-2008, 09:54
Thx didnt know about the 3+ rule can the flying vamp leave the ghouls after initially joining them? and wouldnt a hell steed negate the need of lynchi? And i dont have a mount with wings is a regualr mount ok to take as a hell steed? thx for the reply. Also im not sure if having my lord out by himself would be a good idea since if he dies my army crumbles maby i should just give regular hero a hell steed.

Eisenhorn
24-03-2008, 10:09
Since you join him in the deployment and march before turn one you can declare a charge with him at the start of turn 1 :D wich means he has an effective charge range of 28 if you use van hels on him as well it is 36

I am thinking of using this setup for my magic heavy army

Vampire Lord
Powers: Master of the black arts, Lord of the dead, Forbidden lore (vampire lore)
Items: The flayed hauberk, Talisman of lycni, Wristbands of black gold, black periapt
Points = 435

Vampire
Powers: Dark acolyte, Avatar of death (Heavy armor, Shield, Hand weapon)
Items: Enchanted shield, Book of arkham
Mount: Hellsteed
Points = 220

Vampire
Powers: Dark acolyte, Avatar of death (Heavy armor, Shield, Hand weapon)
Items: Sceptere de noirot
Points = 175

Vampire
Powers: Dark acolyte, Avatar of death (Heavy armor, Shield, Hand weapon)
Points = 150

Total of 13 (14) power dice

I guess if you make up a suitebale fluff reason for why there are no wings n the hell steed it should be okey.

For example: The steed is infused with black magic and seems to float above the ground on its master command.

DarkStarr
24-03-2008, 10:13
Dont forget to give one of your heros ghoul kin so he can get that charge off and power stones couldnt hurt. can you use van hels on a single target? and wouldnt you have to declare the charge before you cast van hels? Hear is what im thinking for my lord since my vamp in the skelli unit will have lord of death,

lvl 3 lord with master of the black arts, forbidden lore, flayed hauberk, black periapt, skull staff. 445
or if you wanted a lord that could accually go in and kill stuff solo you could ditch the skull staff and give him the carstien ring and give black periat to a hero vamp also w a hell steed and they could go crazy behind enemy lines.

Eisenhorn
24-03-2008, 10:32
Oops wrong list.

Anyway ill have it on the one vampire with nothing.

If you want the 36' move you do the following

Turn: 0 ghoulkin march (8)

Turn: 1 Fly (20)

Turn 1 magic phase: Book of arkaham or spell, van hells charge move (8)

then you pray that your opponent does not have scrolls and is stupid enough to use all his dispel dice dispelling your other spells.

Goldenwolf
24-03-2008, 20:20
How many points is this? I am guessing 2000?

Be VERY careful with charging the Dire Wolves in combat straight up. They are not good in anything but a screening/flanking role, and I believe that Blood Drinker will not let the unit be raised above the minimum, so maybe something a little more killy with that Vamp.

A sneaky deal is to give a regular vamp, the 2 abilities Fly and Avatar of Death for 50, and then put them in a unit of Skellies. When he gets close enough, he then flank charges someone, and uses a mundane Great Weapon to give himself S(7). He is TRULY useful vs a 1 rank unit of Heavy Cavalry :)

DarkStarr
24-03-2008, 21:47
Yeah 2ooo points. I know what you meen about the wolves being not so good thats why i thought a vamp would make them decent on a first turn charge, I plan on uping there unit size to 20 in the magic phase and having some zombies pop up near by and some spirit hosts i redid my list to include a lvl4 and 3 lvl2's and 3 power stones so im hoping to have a nasty first turn magic phase, I got a hell steed for one of my vamps so he could perform what you were saying or assist the wolves. Or i could just play it safe and split the wolves into 2 flanking units and go for the second round charge w the army. Alot will depend on the army and there set up but I'll keep it how it is and go for a first round charge w 20 wolves and a vamp and a hell steed for support with zombies and spirit hosts.

Eisenhorn
24-03-2008, 21:56
You do know that you can only raise one wolf with every successful casting of IoN. Since they are cavalry, so that means you have to cast IoN 10 times to bring your unite of wolfs up to 20.

DarkStarr
24-03-2008, 22:23
Oh lol that changes things. Well ill stick w the same plan basicly but dependin on the enemy deployment I mignt just use the 10 wolves as flankers and put the lycni vamp in a unit of skelitons and have him pop out when needed I didnt know if you have 2 vamps in a unit that one of them could leave the unit.
He will have a cursed book so he could survive a round of melee on his own. If someone could clarify if I could have one of my vamps leave a unit that would be great.

Eisenhorn
24-03-2008, 22:40
There are to ways you can leave a unit

1. Move out of the unite in the movement fase

2. Charge out of the unite in movement fase

You can never leave a unite which has declared a charge. Finally you dont need to have vampires in your unites and they are free to go as per the normal characters rules

Spirit
24-03-2008, 22:40
Yea, to be honest, i don't see this list working. Charging on the first turn with a unit of 10 wolves and a vampire with 3 attacks.

You get 6 in base to base, so thats 5 S3 attacks, needing 4's then 4' or 5's to wound, and 3 (great weapon?) attacks, thats 2 wounds form him. So you wont win against a ranked up unit. Remember fast cavalry don't get ranks. They will just crumble and die.

And if someone marched up to me and tried to cast vanhells into close combat in the first turn, i would use all of my dispell scrolls and put the unit down, you lose 2 power dice, 1 dispell dice, and about 350 points. It might work in the odd game, but people will just scroll and dispell your vanhells. Remember its only 12" range, so only one vampire will be in range to cast it, and he has to ROLL the spell, and he only has 2 power + 2 pool dice to use.

Sorry but i just don't see it working. Also just because you have manfred does not make it "magic heavy" My 2k vamps pulls about the same magic, maybe a bit less, but you can make much heavier armies.

Why spend points on ghoulkin if all your doing is marching 10 ghouls? If your buying that power have 3 units of ghouls and no skeletons. Gives you a much better return for your money, and ghouls are just as good as skellies.

Sorry if this sounds harsh. Its not ment to.

Falkman
24-03-2008, 23:38
Keep in mind that a character on Hellsteed can't join units, so Eisenhorn's idea about that is out the window.

DarkStarr
24-03-2008, 23:56
You get 6 in base to base, so thats 5 S3 attacks, needing 4's then 4' or 5's to wound, and 3 (great weapon?) attacks, thats 2 wounds form him.

{Well ditched the first list but i would only use this tactic now with the wolves if it looks very promising.}

And if someone marched up to me and tried to cast vanhells into close combat in the first turn, i would use all of my dispell scrolls and put the unit down, you lose 2 power dice, 1 dispell dice, and about 350 points.

{Not sure how you could go much more magic heavy than 3 lvl 2 wizzards and manfred who is lvl 4 with 3 power stones in the army, but hey with all that magic it will deffinantly make ppl pick and choose wich ones to dispell with a scroll and they most deffinantly wont stop all of it, mabey half of it.}

Sorry but i just don't see it working. Also just because you have manfred does not make it "magic heavy" My 2k vamps pulls about the same magic, maybe a bit less, but you can make much heavier armies.

{Post your army list.}

Why spend points on ghoulkin if all your doing is marching 10 ghouls?

{I ditched the ghoulkin ability.}

Sorry if this sounds harsh. Its not ment to.[/QUOTE]

{not harsh but deffinantly not thougt out.}

DarkStarr
25-03-2008, 00:20
New list this is what I am going with since I am limeted on some modle counts and I want to try some heavy magic summoing army the posts i recieved most deffinantly helped me out thank you very much. I have 40 zombie modles in reserve for summoning.

{ manfred with poewer stone 495.} Im sorry but i think lvl4 wizzard with 5 wounds and a sword that gives me more power dice is worth it, not to mention everything he comes with.

{Vampire: with tomb blade, avatar of death, dark acolyte, power stone, 195 points} he will lead my skeliton unit.

{Vampire: with tlasmin of lynci, power stone, cursed book, dark acolyte, avatar of death, 200 points}, he will iether join my dire wolves if there is a great oportunity to take out some skirmishers ore a lone unit or he will join my skeliton or grave guard unit and break off later.

{vampire: Hell steed, dark acolyte, avatar of death, book of arkhan, black periat,215 points} he will be a support unit, with the ability to fly on the flank and cast book of arkhan for a flank charge hopefully not being disspelled, or just general support.

{black coache, 200 points

{10 skelitons, with banner of leigion of the dead, 105 points} I plan on building there numbers way up on the first turn to at least 20.

{10 dire wolves with a leader, 90 points} Flank and harrass unit good at keeping knights from charging or go with a first round charge as described earlier under "unique circumstances"

{10 ghouls with a leader 88 points}

{corps cart, 100 points} Basicly just sit this behind my grave guard and skeliton units so they get the first strike thing and a little help in bringing back dead units.

{19 grave guard,great weapons, with a leader and banner of the burrows, 304 points} Man fred will be in this unit, not much to say here ill just try to face them off, against the nastiest unit i can find and go to town.

total army is 1992, I know this leaves me 8 points for a skeliton but it really wont matter since im summoning so many of them ill run out of modles before ill run out of power dice.

Akuma
25-03-2008, 00:33
I'll make it short ... If you ever face ANY deacent gunline - you will be dead by turn 3 - any gunline that will start first will shoot your 2 units ( ghouls and skillis ) to pices in one turn.

Any fast army with things like dragons will be on top of you on turn 2 ... so you will summon and summon and summon ...

Play few games - say your sorry and ask how to make deacent army list ...

DarkStarr
25-03-2008, 00:44
Lol ok well I have to say I completly dissagree with you on this, I am a accomplished dark elf player and have played them for quite some time, I would like to see these lists, We can speculate what will and wont die in the first turn, but the gun line army I face Mabey isnt that good im not sure, but the ppl in my league always go aniti-magic heavy.

Try not to sound like a someone who is just spouting off stuff with no real basis to back that off of and post lists and things that accually make sense like the other ppl did and you might get a shred of accnowlegment, that what you say accually would make sense. and yes the point is to "keep summoning and summoining and summoing and summoning and .. well you get the picture, not to mention direct damage spells that will come from the vamp and death lines and so on and so on, do not underestimate heavy magic. I have a dragon in my dark elf army and I have yet to ever see them worth the points, there are plenty of things in my army that can take them down, magic being on the front of that list. I know a dragon is about half of a 2k army list and it does not scare me in the least.

Arnizipal
25-03-2008, 00:57
I've recently commented on a similar list (though more Blood Dragon inspired), so I'll just quote myself here ;)


10 man skeleton units are not worth it if you intend to actually do something with them. You can get away with one if you take the Lord of the Dead power and boost them to 20 or so. Taking more small units will require a lot of babysitting magicwise.

Making all your core choices 10 man units will give you a really weak centre. Even with a vampire in every unit, it will be an uphill struggle as soon as you hit combat. Skellies won't kill much leaving your vamp to do all the work.
Let's assume your 10 man plus vamp hero unit takes on a 20 man unit of Empire spearmen. Even if the vamp hits and wounds with all his attacks, you'll still will have only mananged a draw (assuming both units have full command). And that's without counting attacks back from the spearmen unit.
If the enemy gets a spell through, or some rounds of shooting, it's even worse.
The point is that magic is a fickle thing. You could miscast on your first turn (which is actually rather likely with all those mages required to boost units). If your magic phase ends before you could bolster your units, those Dwarfs will have a field day blowing your tiny units to bits. Rolling a lot of '1's for the amount of summoned skeletons will also seriously mess up your plans.

It's better to come prepared and field your skeletons in units of 20 so you at least have a bit of a buffer. Drop a vampire if you need the points, or more preferable the Black Coach. It's really way too expensive and doesn't fit your style of army. You NEED your power dice. You can't have them be sucked up by the coach. That way you can't boost your troops.

Also, the new army you posted above still isn't legal. You need three core choice that are either ghouls, skeletons or zombies. Dire wolves and corpse carts do not count as core.

EDIT: oh, and it's spelled skelEton ;)

DarkStarr
25-03-2008, 01:18
ah yes forgot about the 2 core thing I will shuffle a few points around and bring in a core choice. I see your point on the black coach taking away from some of my magic not sure how many dice it will soak up maby ill keep it away from some of my casters to limit this, but in all honesty I do see the potential for some of this not working, what ill do is possibly drop the corps cart for some more skelitons to get my corp choices leagal. Yes alot depends on getting my summons off but with all those dice and 3 power stones im banking on it working, and if it works it we be absolutley awsome :). I'm gonna try it out and see how i like it and ill post the results in less than 2 weeks, but isnt that the great thing about this game is you can try such unique lists just to see what would happen and if it works great if not ill adjust. The main thing i noticed in my 1k point battle with the vampire counts was that while i had a decent amount of magic i didnt have nearly enough for it to do anythign until it was the 5'th round, and at that point my grave guard were wading through the dwarves, if it had gone to round 7 or 8 i would have killed all of them to the man but it ended and he got a marginal victory off me. So what i learned is that if i had enough magic to summon early on and heal some of my units I would have sloughtered him, so thats what i will attempt to do this time, iether way im gonna have fun trying and so far I love the way the vampire counts play more than the dark elves so win or loss ill have fun.

Akuma
25-03-2008, 01:27
I'm not beeing smug but catching your attention :) - really the problem with magic heavy lists is as fallows - when you hit certain army builds you have very limited chance to win and huge factor of the game would be few 1 dice throws ( who starts first , not misscasting during the 1 turn so on and so on ) ...

Also using special chars is lame to say at least - but i understand its normal in you area so its cool - if averybody does that - why shouldnt you do it too ...

Ok my main point is that your army will be very very dull to play and not that effective - i often comment on armys and try to put them in one of 2 main baskets - one is im fun to play for me and opponent army and the second is WAAC all the way dude - Your army is neither - You just roll the dice and prey thay wont fail you ... its a real waste to the potential of new VC - just this ...

As to said armys - Take torek gunline , take my empire , from gunline department - take HE with rediculus magic and 4 RBT ... And as the fest one goes - take Chaos roller - slannesh with DP , Chempion on Snake so on and so on , Brettonia with flying circuss and lods of kinights ( 2 turn thay sit on you )
I would just try to rethink the way of using VC - 4 characters - yeah sure - all vampires - nooo - take 2 necros - one on cart - very handy toy you got there - give them van hales ... hell wait a minute I'll post you one of my own creations ...

Akuma
25-03-2008, 01:56
Vampire Lord
Magic Level 3
The Arkayne: Forbidden Lore
The Bestialle: Flying Horror
Flayed Hauberk
Sword of Battle

Vampire
Magic Level 1
The Arkayne: Dark Acolyte
The Master: Lord of the Dead
Tomb Blade

Vampire
Magic Level 1
The Arkayne: Dark Acolyte
The Master: Summon Ghouls
Sword of Striking

Necromancer
Magic Level 1; Necromancy; Knows 2 Necro Spells
Dispel Scroll
Dispel Scroll
Corpse cart

5 Dire Wolves
5 Dire Wolves

20 Zombies
Standard; Musician

20 Crypt Ghouls
Ghast

20 Skeleton Warriors
Spear; Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician Skeleton Captain

20 Grave Guard
Heavy Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician; Crypt Keeper
Banner of the Dead Legion

4 Fell Bats

1 Black Coach


Casting Pool: 10
Dispel Pool: 7
Models in Army: 99


Total Army Cost: 2000

DarkStarr
25-03-2008, 02:11
Nice list very balanced now the difference will be in turn one ill have 20 power dice to play with and when I get my units up it wont look or play much different than yours, wher you have fel bats I have a couple vamps with high mobility, now what im hoping is that in the 2nd thru 6th rounds is where my magic really starts to overpower the enemy and I keep on summoning and casting damage, well see I may try a list like yours after I try this one out to keep my opponents guessing, thx for the list and comments they deffinantly helped. And seeing your list doesnt make me feel so bad as I though mine was lol, it just really relys on the magic to get off the ground in the beginning.

Akuma
25-03-2008, 02:19
Underatand me right - I wasnt at any moment saying that your list was weak or bad - i simply pointed out that it has a huge gambling factor build in it - if you roll good - you have more chance of winning than my list - but then agin if you roll bad in the 1 turn you have next to none chance of pulling even a draw of ( especialy if you lose who go first roll and this will happen 50% of the time by statistics ) :)

good luck with both list - i hope i've helped a bit :)