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showmydog
24-03-2008, 12:02
my friend spoke to me about a certain tactic and im wondering if its do-able.
let me know if i source inconsistent rules.

a winged vampire with the ghoul marcher joins a unit of ghouls (in a ghoul heavy army) and they make their move/march before the game. then BAM!
the vampire leaps out into something (dont ask why, its not the issue)

can this be done?
do other characters with ghouls get to move?
if so can we experience a multiple 'ghoul-in-the-box' event?

Leogun_91
24-03-2008, 12:53
No a flying character may NEVER join ANY UNIT AT ALL. It can however be done if you chose the M9 amulet instead of flying (allright he will charge 2 inches less but it is doable)

Atrahasis
24-03-2008, 13:05
Leogun, that is not the case.

A character on a FLYING MOUNT may not join units. However, a character who merely flies of his own accord is free to join units as normal.

Showmydog : Yes, it is a common tactic, and is the death of armies which depend on artillery to deal with threats like the Black Coach/Vargulfs.

Reinnon
24-03-2008, 13:13
No a flying character may NEVER join ANY UNIT AT ALL. It can however be done if you chose the M9 amulet instead of flying (allright he will charge 2 inches less but it is doable)

i would rereead the rulebook, as my copy doesn't seem to support you.

i can see nothing to forbid it.

Lordmonkey
24-03-2008, 15:31
can this be done?

Yup.


do other characters with ghouls get to move?


...Your units of Crypt Ghouls (and accompanying characters) may make a march move before the game...

Yup.


if so can we experience a multiple 'ghoul-in-the-box' event?

Yup.

Pretty fun idea actually, especially if you take 3 flying vampires with avatar of death.

EvC
24-03-2008, 18:25
Ah good, so now I know what you consider to be "fun" for your sig, Lordmonkey ;)

Lordmonkey
24-03-2008, 18:42
Ah good, so now I know what you consider to be "fun" for your sig, Lordmonkey ;)

Oi! You, why... and... yes! :mad:

:p :D

Akuma
24-03-2008, 19:00
It's another example of gamers beeing better at testing than playtesters :D

The combo would be viable if ONLY Vamp with the ghoulkhin could move with the unit - this would mean that the flying beast of death is your general :D and that would be a risk that could be payed of by the possibility of getting into CC with combat monster on Turn One ...

To elaborate lets think about such combination ...

Vampire Lord
Flyed Hauberak ( +2 AS )
Carstain Ring
Flying Horror ( can fly WOW )
GhoulKin
Forbidden Lore ( takes lore of death )

This falla goes with 20 ghouls jumps in the mids of enemy and takes care of his warmachines if enemy happens to be bretonians or any other army that doesnt have warmachines or fun targets he just cast 6 spell from the lore of death :) right in the middle of enemy army - then he goes of and mourders whole deal of enemy skirmishers , small units such as fest cav and so on and so on and then ... he gets killed and resurected beck in the unit - like ghouls that by then be very close to combat :)

xragg
24-03-2008, 19:07
My group noticed this tactic right away. Pretty much everyone said, I guess we are going to set up a few inches back against VC from now on, sigh.

Nurgling Chieftain
24-03-2008, 19:43
...Isn't a unit normally slowed by its slowest member? I.e., if the ghouls can move but the character in their midst can't, doesn't that mean they don't go anywhere?

Reinnon
24-03-2008, 19:45
ghoulkin allows the character to move with them

Nurgling Chieftain
24-03-2008, 19:46
If that's specified then why was it even a question? :confused:

Reinnon
24-03-2008, 19:55
..i suppose he didn't read the rule or doesn't have access to the book, but it does allow characters to move.

Neknoh
24-03-2008, 21:18
don't have the book... hrmm... would this allow for more than one vampire jumping out? i.e. say... all four of them jumping right at an enemy unit?

Arnizipal
24-03-2008, 21:22
Simply put: yes.
All you need to do is have one vampire in the army to have the ghoulkin power. Then all vampires (or other characters) in ghoul units can get a free (8") march move at the start of the game along with their ghoul unit.

Chicago Slim
25-03-2008, 01:49
Of course, there's still PLENTY of units that don't mind taking a single character (even a Vampire Lord) to their front... Dude's only got so many attacks, with which to overcome 5 points of static CR. Now, make it 7 points of static CR (3 ranks, numbers, banner, BSB, War Banner, a combo that just about any army can field), and you've got SOMETHING that you can put on the front edge of deployment with relative confidence...

But, I digress into tactics. Yes, from a rules perspective, it's totally legit.

showmydog
25-03-2008, 02:13
OUCH!

normally the rules were highly against things charging on the first turn, especially powerful characters (i play empire, all characters seem more powerful).

this really worries me and my war machines, and i guess the most annoying part is there isn't much i can do about it..

its uncouth and wrong i say! :P

Akuma
25-03-2008, 02:15
Empire has no problem with it :D realy - we have our Arch Lector on altar , Our Steem Tank :D , Our Flagalents and so on ... - If i ever see my friend put ghouls anywhere near the table I'll surly put my machines on the other side of the table ;)

decker_cky
25-03-2008, 04:39
It's the beast herds that really have to worry about this one....

sulla
25-03-2008, 05:58
It's another example of gamers beeing better at testing than playtesters :D



Personally, I'd be quite happy to sacrifice a 100pt RBT to lure a vampire out of his nearly unbreakable unit. :evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin:

EvC
25-03-2008, 12:37
Empire has no problem with it :D realy - we have our Arch Lector on altar , Our Steem Tank :D , Our Flagalents and so on ... - If i ever see my friend put ghouls anywhere near the table I'll surly put my machines on the other side of the table ;)

Of course, that just means your opponents can now use a single unit of Ghouls to dictate your deployment, regardless of whether they have the Ghoulkin ability :D

Gaftra
25-03-2008, 13:13
this is not only legal is been endorced in the new black gobbo!

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/vampirecounts/gaming/vampires/2.htm

Gorbad Ironclaw
25-03-2008, 13:33
It's 28" he can charge. Your artillery shouldn't be that close to the vampire anyway. And as pointed out, a single vampire might be good, but he isn't that scary to a whole lot of units. Now if we are talking several they might take a unit, but it's also a huge risk.

Spirit
25-03-2008, 14:24
Gorbad got to half of my point first. Artillery should be out of range from this.

Another point, surly whatever he charges, you can just flee? If your 12" on you need to roll 12 to get off the table and 4 to escape him (you set up "more" than 24" away and he moves 8, so you are "more" than 16" away)

The vampires now have all of their heros, in your deployment zone, as flyers always move 20" for a charge. You are free to cannon/bolt thrower /shoot/magic /charge the heros individually.

I'm an undead player and i don't see it working in many games.

To add a small point also, you lose the "main" benefit of ghoulkin, because your ghous now cant move in turn 1..

Atrahasis
25-03-2008, 14:29
If your 12" on you need to roll 12 to get off the table

The highest you can roll with ANY unit deployed 12" in and stay on the table is 11.

If it's a ranked unit, that will be considerably less (typically 7").

WillFightForFood
25-03-2008, 15:05
As a tactic it does have problems:
1. You might break the opposing unit, or you might be sending your precious vampires to their grisly death (possibly both).
2. Since you only have 4" leeway you might not get to set up right across from a good unit to charge if you drop your ghouls first, which means you might have to deploy them later. Unfortunately that means you have to put your big bads (vargulf and blood knights) down first.
3. If you don't get the first turn you have now revealed your strategy. Hope that your opponent doesn't have any way to exploit that on turn one (Anvil of doom = Walking to the enemy lines).
4. It won't work against some opponents (Daemons, other Undead, HE, Anyone who can stop Flying on turn one)

It could be devastating against an unsuspecting oppoent. It sounds like a lot of fun though, and not entirely unfluffy if you took Flying for all of your Vampires.

EvC
25-03-2008, 15:17
Another point, surly whatever he charges, you can just flee? If your 12" on you need to roll 12 to get off the table and 4 to escape him (you set up "more" than 24" away and he moves 8, so you are "more" than 16" away)

The vampires now have all of their heros, in your deployment zone, as flyers always move 20" for a charge. You are free to cannon/bolt thrower /shoot/magic /charge the heros individually.

Except if they're charging a warmachine, in which case they'll hit the machine, spike it and overrun (possibly off the table). Job done.

Gaftra
25-03-2008, 16:14
another option is if he causes terror since now you have a terror causing unit plopped down in the middle of his deployment zone, or more ideally, along the edge of a flank to start a domino.