PDA

View Full Version : 2000 pts Ogre Kingdoms - Need advice



BigBossOgryn
25-03-2008, 08:57
This is the 2000 army that I have so far, any advice would be welcome.

Tyrant: the tenderiser, wyrdstone necklace, fistfull of laurels, light armour, luck gnoblar: 290

Butcher: 2 Dispel Scrolls: 180

Butcher: 1 Dispel Scroll: 155

3 Bulls: hand weapons, ironfists and light armour: 129

4 Ironguts: standard w/ lookout gnoblar and gutlord (tyrant's unit): 237

4 Ironguts: standard w/ lookout gnobar: 217

4 Ironguts: standard w/ lookout gnoblar: 217

2 Leadbelchers: 110

3 Yhetees: 195

3 Maneaters: heavy armour and brace of handguns: 270

Garg Foecrusher
25-03-2008, 09:23
Put heavy armour on the tyrant, give the butchers things like skullmantle and bangstick in addition to a dispel scroll, and have drop one irongut from each unit and field another unit of three.
A Bruiser BSB could be good, and if you could squeeze in some gnoblar thiefstones, that'll be even better 'cause you only have two butchers.

Sterling
25-03-2008, 12:10
the Gutlord should go first. a unit champion in an Ogre army isn't worth buying, ever. next, every unit of ironguts has a standard... that's a little much, especially since you have very little support for them. I would drop at least 2. Three maneaters with Brace is a common choice that I have never seen the logic of. They are too expensive for a hammer at this point level. I would drop one maneater completely, then split the 2 remaining maneaters into 2 units of 1 so they can shoot different places or support opposite sides of the general advance.

maneater (90), 2 banners + lookout gnoblar (50), Gutlord (20). That's a total of 160 points ... a butcher with skullmantle is the first purchase. Split up the 3 units of 4 into 4 units of 3, Like Garg said. Drop the Ironfists and Light Armor from the bulls and get them a bellower. I think that gives you 27 points to spend on a bangstick.

Mercules
25-03-2008, 13:32
Three maneaters with Brace is a common choice that I have never seen the logic of. They are too expensive for a hammer at this point level.

They are not a hammer, they are a "Come Get Me" anvil. Stand over there and I'll pot shot you while moving towards you. Come over here and I'll pound you while you try to get through my Stubborn LD 8. You can't quiet ignore them because 6 shots with a BS of 4 will actually hit things especially when they can move and shoot 24" without a penalty. Once in combat with them that unit usually gets stuck in until the Maneaters grind them up or break them.

Unfortunately they are a wee bit expensive.

I have considered running one around with my Tyrant with a Greatsword to give me a very killy 2 model unit that splits out wounds and is Stubborn.

Sterling
25-03-2008, 14:17
sorry for the misunderstanding... you see, when I play Ogres, there are no anvils. 6 S4 shots with BS4 for 270 (!) points is not going to draw anything in... rather, it has 3 maneaters that raise their hand and say "shoot me! shoot me! shoot me!" Maneaters are 30 points per wound and the best protection they can have is heavy armor. That makes them nice, big, juicy targets.

the best you can do with the brace is knock off 1 rank bonus from a weak troop before getting into close combat, or pick off a character trying to be sneaky. A maneater is a close combat moster, but a ranged nuisance (at best). Of course, the fact that the Brace is an additional close combat weapon makes it a decent choice...

yes, they can take a unit apart in prolonged close combat, and they are pretty much the only Ogres that can say that... but the Ogre Kingdom relies on dynamic combat resolution (wounds and charge angles), not static resolution (ranks & standards). Our units need to maneuver, charge and crush units in round 1, if they fail to break round 1, most Ogres will lose round 2 (except Maneaters).

however, 3 maneaters is less effective than an Irongut unit supported by a bull unit... they will crush the enemy on the charge, not 2 turns later, and have twice the wounds with the same protection.

Mercules
25-03-2008, 14:36
the best you can do with the brace is knock off 1 rank bonus from a weak troop before getting into close combat, or pick off a character trying to be sneaky. A maneater is a close combat moster, but a ranged nuisance (at best). Of course, the fact that the Brace is an additional close combat weapon makes it a decent choice...

Kill off Skaven weapon crews(which I truly hate), Skaven Warplightning Cannons which the Bulls/Ironguts have to herd towards a board edge or rundown, panic Fast Calvary(Yes Leadbelchers do this but their range is so limited you have to wait until they are right on top of you, and then hope they don't just blow themselves up), force characters to run around in units, and shoot the crud out of chariots. I usually only end up with a shot, maybe two before close combat, but then I have 5 Str 5 attacks for each one which actually chews up many things very well. On the way in though, I pick off anything that is all alone but still a threat/problem like march blockers.



yes, they can take a unit apart in prolonged close combat, and they are pretty much the only Ogres that can say that... but the Ogre Kingdom relies on dynamic combat resolution (wounds and charge angles), not static resolution (ranks & standards). Our units need to maneuver, charge and crush units in round 1, if they fail to break round 1, most Ogres will lose round 2 (except Maneaters).

Which is why I use them to pin a unit so that on Round 2 a unit of Bulls or Ironguts can charge the flank to negate that static CR that is a nightmare for OK players.



however, 3 maneaters is less effective than an Irongut unit supported by a bull unit... they will crush the enemy on the charge, not 2 turns later, and have twice the wounds with the same protection.

Yes and no. My last game I had a unit of Maneaters pound their way through, a Character on a Boar & 3 Trolls, a Unit of Nightgoblins, a Unit of Big'uns. Previous to that I had a unit of 2 shoot till panic a unit of HE archers and then pound their way through a unit of HE Spearmen on an unsupported flank pursuing into another unit of archers.

I agree they are very expensive for what they do, but I find that if I am going to take Maneaters that are going to be operating alone(not joining a characters) BoH seems to be the right weapon for the job. If you are using Maneaters it seems you either go Great Weapon for the Str 7 close in(Expensive Ironguts) or BoH to give OK something they don't really have, a decent long ranged attack.

Sterling
25-03-2008, 16:04
I'm not saying brace isn't useful... especially due to the extra CC attack and BS 4, but I am saying that one maneater with a brace and 2 banners plus a Gutlord is not worth as much as a 3rd butcher. the equipment on the bulls is not worth as much as a bangstick.

and I never used the brace vs fast cav... when i was testing a unit like this to see how it worked, the empire player and o&g player i tested against were not using much fast cav. There was a unit of spider riders, but they generally hid until my yhetees forced them off the board.

Generally, I concluded that the maneaters became too valuable a target in groups of more than 2. Cannons, mortars, big rocks, balliste and anything that could hit somebody without getting into CC all pointed at them and swiss-cheesed my boys. it did keep fire off my yhetees, and it did perform well against chaos and vampire counts (old book), but not sufficiently better than another irongut and bull unit.

On the other hand, when I split the maneaters into 2 units of 1 they became much more effective. I do usually give them great weapons, but a CLS or brace is good... they can still lock a unit in place with their stubborn, and as long as they aren't facing spears, a CLS maneater won't get many wounds beause he kills all but one model in b-t-b before they can attack, and when they do attack, even chaos warriors need 4's to hit due to the bump in WS. Stop and hold a unit one round, and an Irongut unit to the flank will break almost any unit in warhammer.

Mercules, I have seen your advice around here, and most of it seems based of solid experience and good grasp of the game. Give 2 single-model units a try some time instead of a single unit of 3, and see if it doesn't give you better results.

Mercules
25-03-2008, 16:12
Mercules, I have seen your advice around here, and most of it seems based of solid experience and good grasp of the game. Give 2 single-model units a try some time instead of a single unit of 3, and see if it doesn't give you better results.

Actually... it's less on "solid" experience with Warhammer, more on tactical/strategic games. I'm a Warhammer FB newb, but I read a LOT on Ogres and have a grasp on what everyone else seems to think works. I then try to go outside the box. I have been considering 2 single model units of Maneaters, or maybe one, as a Character babysittter for my Tyrant. A GW Maneater and a Tyrant will chew up a unit pretty well. I might then run a Maneater with BoH with my Bangstick using Butcher to make a nice maneuverable unit that splits up wounds, will run less easily, and can actually panic things at range, or cause a bit of damage up close.

My only issue running 1 figure units is I really like the versatility of having US 5+ in case I can maneuver into a place to use it in a flank. Static CR is OK's bane. :)

Hopefully BigBossOgryn pulled something useful out of our banter. I think I did.

BigBossOgryn
26-03-2008, 23:29
I'm going to work the list based on what you guys have said, but a couple of things:

I take the standards and lookout gnobs to stop my characters being pinged off by cannons :cries: as the plan is to have the 3 butchers and tyrant in an irongut unit each, which i will make into 3 man units.

The reason I take a Gutlord in the Tyrants unit is because people eliminate the tyrant from combat by challenging with a unit champ to stop the unit getting mashed.

I'll post the redo later.

Thanks for the advice.

Mercules
27-03-2008, 04:01
I'm going to work the list based on what you guys have said, but a couple of things:

I take the standards and lookout gnobs to stop my characters being pinged off by cannons :cries: as the plan is to have the 3 butchers and tyrant in an irongut unit each, which i will make into 3 man units.

The reason I take a Gutlord in the Tyrants unit is because people eliminate the tyrant from combat by challenging with a unit champ to stop the unit getting mashed.

I'll post the redo later.

Thanks for the advice.

Cannons hurt Ogres but I was having good luck with them hitting my Butcher because he had a ward save in that game. Even so if the dice hadn't been against me those cannons would have quickly taken down That butcher and the Giant I was running.

As for the Champion protecting the Tyrant.... You want your Tyrant in a challenge. He will do overkill damage against a Champion and likely get a LOT of it. In a challenge he will probably give you more CR than any other way. I let them foolishly challenge my Tyrant(unless it's a Black Orc in a Ranked up unit that just charged me, stupid Axe of the Last Waaagh:D)

The GoboNinja
27-03-2008, 04:56
I love braces of handguns so much :D

BigBossOgryn
27-03-2008, 10:35
Can someone clarify this for me if possible:

The Tenderiser states: A model wounded by the tenderiser (After saves etc) loses not one but D3 wounds

In a challenge against single wound models (unit champs etc) after rolling to hit and wound, do i still inflict the D3 for all the successful wounds? Reason being, when playing a game with someone, they told me that a model can't 'loose' more wounds than he has currently, but i can 'inflict' more wounds than he had.

Therefore i would only get the Overkill bonus for the wounds caused BEFORE they become D3 wounds. Is this right?

Mercules
27-03-2008, 10:48
No... Overkill is how many wounds you inflict -total- to a maximum of 5. So if you get 3 wounds and convert them into 3, 2, and 2 wounds against a 1 wound champion it would count as 5 overkill for CR. That is the idea behind Overkill. You smashed the leader of their unit so hard and defeated them so easily with your overwhelming force that it demoralizes his/her unit.

Sterling
27-03-2008, 12:39
We had a discussion of Tenderizer Overkill on another forum, when we finally decided that we were not going to figure it out on our own, so we called in the Big Guns... we spoke to the UK GT Heat 1 judges on how they would rule it.
http://ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=6348.0

BigBossOgryn
31-03-2008, 11:07
Ok, here's the new list i've come up with, what you guys think?

Lord
Skrag The Slaughterer : 400
Heroes
Bruiser: Siegebreaker, Wyrdstone necklace, heavy armour, luck gnoblar: 189
Butcher Joyce: Bangstick, dispel scroll: 180
Core
3 Bulls: ogre clubs
4 Ironguts: standard and lookout gnoblar: 217
3 Ironguts: standard and lookout gnoblar: 169
3 Ironguts: standard and lookout gnoblar: 169
Special
2 Gorgers: 150
2 Gorgers: 150
Rare
1 Maneater: heavy armour and brace of handguns: 90
2 Maneaters: heavy armour and brace of handguns: 180

Ok, bit of a departure from my previous list but here's the rundown:

Skrag and his Gorgers
I needed a Butcher that could cast on 3 dice to make my opponents sweat and throw scrolls around, idea being that the butcher does the gut magic on low levels and skrag takes over when 3 dice are required. Skrag's a great wall to run into, especially if you can get off +1 Toughness and Stubborn. Skrag is also the single biggest threat to the Thorek ICan'tPlayWarhammer Dwarf army as he can shrug off most of the fire they throw at him.

The Gorgers are actually pretty damn hard after having used them in a few games. The only stumbling block I found was undead, but then I realised that throwing all 4 of them into 1 unit is a sure fire way to tear through them faster.

The Maneaters
1 decided these guys make fantastic flank guards. The unit of 2 on one side and the other Maneater pairs up with the Butcher to fend off any cheeky flankers.

Feedback please. :D

piggy
31-03-2008, 13:31
All i can find fault with and this just may be my play style, but i add a Hunter to my list for flankning and the Bolt Thrower is nie :evilgrin:

THen a large unit of Bulls (12 at last count), to hold the centre but thats just me...

That Butcher magic is nice idea tho ;)

BigBossOgryn
10-04-2008, 13:17
Okay i've had a few playtests with the list and made a few changes, let me know what you think.

Lord:
Skrag the Slaughterer: 400
Heroes:
Bruiser Battle Standard: Sword of Might, light armour: 175
Bruiser: great weapon, brace of handguns, light armour: 150
Butcher: Bangstick and Dispel Scroll:180
Core:
3 Bulls: ogre clubs: 105
3 Ironguts: standard bearer and lookout gnoblar: 169
3 Ironguts: standard bearer and lookout gnoblar: 169
3 Ironguts: standard bearer and lookout gnoblar: 169
Special:
3 Gorgers: 225
Rare:
3 Maneaters: brace of handguns: 258

Mercules
10-04-2008, 14:18
Skrag is an interesting character to use. He is a fighting wizard although his frenzy sometimes gets him into trouble.

Bruisers are ok, cheap enough to throw at a Lord/Hero and maybe kill them.

Nice setup on the Butcher and that gives you 5 dispel dice which is what I have in my list and it seems to work with one Dispel Scroll for defense.

Nice cheap Bulls(and I am starting to really like Ogre Clubs, good enough to turn 2+ AS into 4+ and with a Bullgorger 5+). Good unit to bait them in with.

Ironguts are Ironguts(strong). I am not sold on having banners in all my IG units. Usually it just cancels out their banner and I am still often faced with making up 2-4 CR. I like being able to flee and will even do so with IGs if it will put me in a good charge position with more than one unit.

3 Gorgers would be fantastic if Skrag can bring them on all at once in the 2nd or 3rd turn. If he can give them any buffs they become very nasty and even without his help they are havoc in the foe's backfield.

The maneaters are going to be the point of Criticism. Not from me. I love the little buggers although even I think they are a bit expensive. I love BoH as well. 5 Str 5 attacks are fun and I like the very minor shooting ability, it tends to be a shock for those who haven't encountered it yet. "Yes, that really killy in CC unit gets a Stand-and-Shoot reaction to your charge. Have a nice day."

Sterling
10-04-2008, 14:25
okay... you have several things keeping this from being totally effective...

1) a bruiser that isn't a bsb or a general. if you have a bruiser, he should be in one of those two roles or the points are better spent on a butcher or Ironguts. The one you have listed costs exactly the same as a butcher with skullmantle.
2) you still have 3 maneaters in a unit with brace.
3) you still have banners on all your irongut units.

well, good luck. these things have already been said, so it's no good repeating it.

play a few games with different lists, but at least once, try it without banners, split up the maneaters and get another butcher or two. see what happens and you should be happy.

CarlostheCraven
10-04-2008, 16:49
Hi

I used to run with lone maneaters with great weapons in 6th edition, but with the maximizing rules of 7th edition a single maneater tends to be more of a hinderence than a help in many instances. He also lacks any staying power if he must fight at least four models going last.

These days I run three with Cathayan Longswords and heavy armour. WS 5, In 4 and armour piercing add up to tonnes of destruction with little damage taken in return. I run the tyrant in the unit to take care of characters and this unit is gold.

Of course, my list is unconventional in that I run only one butcher, and I include a hunter and a Bruiser BSB. The BSB is in a unit of Ironguts with standard, war banner, giving them a static 3 to start. It is quite effective to have two strong hammers.

Cheers,

robobobo
10-04-2008, 22:30
Hey there,

The look of the army seems nice, but my personal preferences for Ogres are:

Bellowers, not standards or champs in the Ironguts if you are taking any kind of command. I do love Irongut units 3 models big.

Skrag is fun, and can really put the beat down, and his rule allowing many gorgers is quite nice. I don't use named characters as a rule, but if I did, Skrag would be the choice and I would bring 4 gorgers.

Personally, I would drop the non-BSB bruiser for another butcher. As the other rule books are coming out, we will be seeing some really nasty opponent spell casting. I am currently worried about an uber tooled out VC list, with the corpse carts everywhere, nigh constant casting of invocation, etc. I expect the standard book escalation from GW will mean nasty Chaos lists as well. So, a 3rd butcher is right in my mind.

I lubs me some maneaters, but brace of guns has never netted me as much as I expected them to. Great weapons or Cathay longswords for me.

Either way, play the lists you come up with a few times. I have found that in each army some units work better for me than others based on my play style.

Robobobo

Conotor
10-04-2008, 23:30
3 scolls and 4 dispell dice is too much. Drop a scroll for an offencive item.

BigBossOgryn
12-04-2008, 18:26
Ok, here's my problem. My army keeps getting flanked so wanted a unit to put on either flank tto discourage those shennanigans. I originally went with 2 2 man units of leadbelchers but got utterly pissed off with them blowing themselves up so settled on the more expensive but more reliable maneaters. If anyone can advise on this, it would be helpful.

Sterling
12-04-2008, 19:25
well, in my area, we usually place the terrain on the flanks or in our deployment zones. that, more than anythig else, makes my yhetees the stars for flank mastery. M7 and Scale terrain make them far more deadly, maneuverable and compact than most other "flanker" type units... which they should be, since they cost double what most other flanking experts cost.

they can usually push my opponent's flankers out in the open where IGs and butchers can deal with them as I march to the enemy lines.

of course, that is assuming I am not playing against High Elves. I can't seem to beat the ASF without a little shooting.

If you do't want to go yhetees, then you can either A) play denied-flank and flood gnobbo fighters (3 units on one flank will usually serve to intimidate the enemy away from them...for 120 pts, that ain't bad) or B) try crazy Slavegiant shenanigans.

Bob the Butcher
13-04-2008, 22:36
The amount spent on Man Eaters 270 seems a lot of points to spend on a vulnerable (to shooting) unit.

I tend to favor the Lead Belchers myself and have recently run them in units of 2. Why units of 2? well if they do a panic test there will only be 1 left alive. So it wont cause other units to do panic checks due to the units small size. I use my Belchers aggressively and usually up front as baiter's against a number of armies. They can either flee or stand and shoot and help set up the charges from my hammer units.

Units of Lead Belchers
2 Belchers 110
3 Belchers 165 =275 and they throw out massive fire power compared to 3 Man eaters