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View Full Version : Necro with van hels - waste of PD's?



praesto
25-03-2008, 13:32
I see a lot of people purchasing an extra necro spell for their necromancer with book of arkhan. To my understanding, the necromancer, which is only lvl 1 caster, can only use two power dices to cast vanhels. He will only succeed in casting it on average. To me, that is simply more gambling than what is good for your own sake!

One of the most important things about your magic phase is to succeed in casting all your spells. I know this sounds obvious, but succeeding in casting just about all your spells (miscasts and very unlucky dice rolls) puts a heavy pressure on your opponent. It makes your opponent doubtful and leaves him with only one choice: To prioritize. ''Which spells do I have to let him cast?''

Instead, buy your necro two power stones (Which only cost 20 pts. each!) and go crazy with van hels! Place the book on another character..

Average simply doesn't cut it for me - how about you?

Spirit
25-03-2008, 14:29
Necromancer, Book of arkhan, black periapt (on another hero)

You now have 3 castings of van hells per turn. his single die, 3 pool dice and a bound.

"Casting on average" Is not gambling, you have a more than 50% chance of casting, alot more if i recall.

I personally don't use necromancers, because i never have many units to put them in, but i see it as a perfectly viable tactic, especially if you have 3 other vampires (in 2k points) who can easily give 10 power dice on their own.

Necromancers are reliable, you cant guarantee rolling vanhells with lvl2 vampires, and i want lore of metal or fire on my lord personally.

Vanhells is easily the best spell in the vampire lore. And getting it every game guaranteed? Yea i'll take that-

praesto
25-03-2008, 15:05
Well, for one, I couldn't imagine myself going for anything but vampire lore with my lord. Wind of undeath, van hels, undead horde??....Gosh, so much juicy stuff! :D

The average roll of two dices, afaik, is 7, which is minimum casting requirement for van hels, so I don't see how casting with two dices gives you more than 50% chance of succeeding?

dzungia
25-03-2008, 15:41
Rolling a 7+ with 2 dice has a 58% probability. Personally, I go for Forbidden Lore and take "Lore of Vampires" for my lord. At the end, I have enough PD to cast any spells I like. Instead of taking 35 points book, I rather take 35 points power :)

Spirit
25-03-2008, 17:23
Well, again, even if you take vampire lore, it still only gives you one caster of vanhells, which means less chance of all your units being in range.

Again, necromancers are cheap, and do what they say on the tin, let you cast a spell every game, every time you buy them. 2 vampires and a necromancer with vampire/necrmancy is more than enough in my opinion, so far i haven't found a great use for either of the large lvl spells in the vampire lore, i much prefer spells 0-4. But it comes down to play style in the end.

Remember 3 vampires and a lord pushes 1000 points (usually more) necromancers help limit this.

praesto
25-03-2008, 22:00
Something tells me you should go over my first post again, Spirit. I never discouraged using necromancers. I encourage people to try him with van hels and two powerstones, so you can attempt van hels twice with your necromancer with 3 dices each time :). My point is, you risk too many failed castings (wasted power dices) trying to cast van hels with two dices.

Dzungia, the book doesn't have a risk of sucking your vampire lord into the chaos realm (miscast :P), and to be quite frank, you can't really compare the two things. Choosing forbidden lore means you have 35 points less of powers to invest in your lord. Of course, if you are going all-out caster with your lord, I wouldn't skip out on forbidden lore. My favorite combo is Master of the black arts + forbidden lore + summon bloodline of some kind. By far much better than dark acolyte + black arts Imo :)

Karhedron
25-03-2008, 22:13
Well, for one, I couldn't imagine myself going for anything but vampire lore with my lord.
Check out "Flaming Sword of Rhuin" and tell me you aren't even slightly tempted by the prospect of a Vampire Lord waving one of those about. ;)

I agree that normally I would take Lore of Vamps too but if you get up to 3000 points then taking a different Lore on your 2nd Lord can be a good option.

praesto
25-03-2008, 23:29
Let us not stray off-topic.

(But yes a vampire lord with red fury, infinite hatred and flaming sword of rhuin is indeed a force to be reckoned with - 5 attacks hitting on 2+, reroll to hit and str 8, an extra attack for each unsaved wound, ouch! Now imagine that vampire lord with bears anger instead - 7 str 7 attacks probably hit on 3+, reroll to hit :P, haha!)

Dark_Mage99
25-03-2008, 23:50
Let us not stray off-topic.

(But yes a vampire lord with red fury, infinite hatred and flaming sword of rhuin is indeed a force to be reckoned with - 5 attacks hitting on 2+, reroll to hit and str 8, an extra attack for each unsaved wound, ouch! Now imagine that vampire lord with bears anger instead - 7 str 7 attacks probably hit on 3+, reroll to hit :P, haha!)

Unfortunately, you can't get the Flaming Sword if you have Infinite Hatred and Red Fury.... oh, the joy if you could!

But Infinite Hatred is a little unnecessary, hitting on an unmodified 2+ anyway :D

Spirit
26-03-2008, 01:06
Thats what vanhells and the royal banner of strigos are for! Who needs hatred when you can just replicate it!

And tbh, id never thought of that vampire before, i like it, i like it a lot. Saves on buying a decent magic weapon, so you can still have a high save and ward. Hell give your vamp the gem of blood, good luck killing THAT before it kills you.


Back on topic. It would seem to me the periapt and 1 stone is the best bet, that way you get both castings per turn, and a 4 dice casting when you need it. But can you take an arcane periapt with an arcane stone? i forget.

Anyway i don't think 40 points is worth it for those 2 castings. 20 for one is all you need.

Joezombie
26-03-2008, 02:47
To me the only saving grace of the necro is its ability to get any spell without the uncertainty of the roll for generation of spells. To me this seems to little, especialy because for just XX more points u can have a Vampire.

But to the original question. Counts live and die by their magic phase. Who casts more offten, also wich is easeir to dispel, and miscasting vs the BoA going poof? Can anybody crunch the numbers?

Spirit
26-03-2008, 19:06
BoA? And to be honest, with a necromancer vamps will still pump out well over 10 power dice without trying. They have plenty magic, and considering youl be casting on 1 or 2 dice tops for most of your spells, i like a cheap <100 point hero that always gets vanhells.

The reliability isn't the only saving grace. The other is being able to take magic items, and the cost. Vampires really struggle to field large armies now, unless they go with less than the max on hero slots. Necros help this alot.

W0lf
26-03-2008, 19:43
Recently i played a 3 game tourny (which i won)

I tried the following:

Necromancer w/ Danse
2 power stones (suprise van hels castings)
Corpse cart with balefire.

He did nothing. I cast van hels once which was dispelled on and he miscast in all 3 games (how great).

Necromancers are now in my eyes pointless. The only thing that let me down in the list :(

(still 50 GG Vlad and konrad did their job :P)

GrogsnotPowwabomba
26-03-2008, 20:32
I spread the spell out. My lvl 1 Vampire has the book, my Necromancer has the spell purchased (with Black Periapt), and my Vampire Lord who is level 3 will hopefully get the spell when I roll (or I could take Forbidden Lore to ensure he has it).

This way, I have the spell spread over my entire army and it is much more flexible in its use. I don't understand why you would put the Book of Arkhan on a Necro, when he is guaranteed the spell anyway...

praesto
26-03-2008, 22:22
Recently i played a 3 game tourny (which i won)

I tried the following:

Necromancer w/ Danse
2 power stones (suprise van hels castings)
Corpse cart with balefire.

He did nothing. I cast van hels once which was dispelled on and he miscast in all 3 games (how great).

Necromancers are now in my eyes pointless. The only thing that let me down in the list :(

(still 50 GG Vlad and konrad did their job :P)

Haha, you'd be one of the last persons I'd expect to dismiss an idea on such short notice. You with so many tactics and so much experience to share (no irony). I'm not sure whether you are being serious or not, but miscasting in all 3 games is highly unlikely and shouldn't be the cause for you to stop using a necro with 2 power stones. Of course, if your necromancers are cursed for all eternity, then fair enough, don't use them :P.

Even if you don't want to use them to cast van hels, they can be used to put a corpse cort in a ghoul/skele unit to gain ranks and possibly buy him two dispell scrolls. Then your other characters do not to waste points on scrolls.

I'm gonna try a power stone necro for some games, I have faith in it :P.