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kiron
25-03-2008, 15:42
My friend boasted she had the strongest army and nothing can beat her. She claimed she has superior magic, strong resilient troops, good movement, good units numbers, just lack of shooting.

Chars: 3
1 Teclis (High Magic)
1 Archmage-lvl 4,book of hoeth
1 commander-battle standard,heavy armor,barded steed,battle banner

Core: 4
25 spearmen-standard and musician
25 spearmen-standard and musician
25 spearmen-standard and musician
25 spearmen-standard and musician

Special: 6
5 dragon princes-full command,skein sliver,banner of sorcery
6 white lions
6 white lions
6 white lions
5 white lions
5 white lions

Rare: 6
6 great eagles

3000 points
142 models
16 units + 3 chars
10+2d3 power dice: 6+d3 dispel dice + scroll of hoeth
*All spells cast are IF if gets doubles other than double 1s*

She claimed that Teclis will use High magic for the stubborn ability and drain magic mostly (with additional support spells on the side) and depending on the other lists the archmage does either metal (vs. empire tanks spell number 1 and 6), shadow, or another High (if facing super magic, 2x drain magic is good).

Her tactics relies on diverting/marchblocking, and potentially anviling with little white lions units that are frustrating especially stubborn and striking first at str 6!

She deploys his little eagles and white lions first so he can scout out your army (11 units deployed is a lot and still have no clue where the army is!)

Her units are either numerous enough or have descent enough saves (3+ vs. shooting for white lions) to withstand most missiles.

She has many tricks up his sleeves including a potential first turn charge if he takes shadow and gets unseen lurker with the dragon princes and BSB (with +d6 CR!) which is VERY crippling and demoralizing.

I tried taking heavy magic, but that didn't work well because 2 drain magics screwed me over good, only list i can think of that may work is tomb kings because it negates the stubborn effect so the white lion's stubborn are useless, but only basic skeleton units and tomb guards stand a chance because everything else will just die.

Having a wall of stubborn spearmen is also very frustrating especially with average of 14 dice where Teclis uses about 4 dice on drain magic and 4 dice on the stubborn spell to every friendly unit within 12!" The miscast chance is too low and Teclis is immune to his first miscast!

I have seen her utterly crush a khorne army despite all the magic defense and same with dwarves.
I've seen RAF get destroyed as well, the stubborness is just too strong, especially when 5 white lions can take down a 3 man pegasus knight squad white cost less than 50% points and the lance missiles despite combined charges can be stopped by one unit of spears (with Teclis' help of course) while the eagles harrass the army to hell.

Any comments on her list and overall tactics and any glaring weaknesses? Is that a fair all-comers list with some balance other than lack of shooting which can easily be made up for with magic.

Putty
25-03-2008, 15:56
well, on paper it looks like a very practical list.

but i tried to run the same list onto my army builder but....

i dunno (maybe my HE file is old) but isn't White Lions unit strength 10 minimum?

And the whole army seem to be more than 3k points.

But i stress again, I might be using an outdated army book file.

Benigno (WE)
25-03-2008, 16:12
I think an upgrade of this list should make that Teclis on his knees:

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134685

Benigno (WE)
25-03-2008, 16:16
Where is Teclis deployd? Is there any chance of making his unit flee?

Malorian
25-03-2008, 16:37
I think an upgrade of this list should make that Teclis on his knees:

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134685

Weak zombies + elven spearmen = very very very bad...

Benigno (WE)
25-03-2008, 16:41
Thounds of weak zombies. Enough to stuck and show them the meaning of fear.

Elves can kill 6-7 zombies per combat round. And can be raised 20-30 easily per magic phase.

Shamfrit
25-03-2008, 16:50
Ignore magic. Or take the sealing route, and use items that lock away spells if you have access to them, especially debilitating on the right spell (although they're not assured to work of course.)

Shooting will be your best asset, as you may have noticed, she has ALOT of small, weak units you should technically be able to bring down without too much trouble, leaving the spear wall in place which again, can be bait charged as much as you can.

What armies do you use, and what sort of set-up? That will help is more, unless I misread.

Malorian
25-03-2008, 16:50
Thounds of weak zombies. Enough to stuck and show them the meaning of fear.

Elves can kill 6-7 zombies per combat round. And can be raised 20-30 easily per magic phase.

You can't raise that easily. Remember that high elves get +1 to dispel. Don't get me wrong, there is a LOT of magic in that list of yours, but it's not like your can so utterly control the magic phase that it makes up for your losses.

And you'll be worse off than you think. Those spearmen would be deployed 7 wide to be sure. That's 9 dead zombies each turn. You should lose combat by about 9 (depends who out numbers), meaning that each unit loses 18 models per turn. If you charge that 36 dead zombies, per unit, before you get a chance to raise again.

And if you are foolish enough to dual charge to make sure you outnumber (which I'm sure you're not) it's even worse, since both units would crumble.

So to say it again: Weak zombies + elven spearmen = very very very bad...

xragg
25-03-2008, 17:01
well, on paper it looks like a very practical list.

but i tried to run the same list onto my army builder but....

i dunno (maybe my HE file is old) but isn't White Lions unit strength 10 minimum?

And the whole army seem to be more than 3k points.

But i stress again, I might be using an outdated army book file.

It also looked like more then 3k points to me too, but I dont have a HE book to know for sure. I play against a HE player a 2k level, and he comes no where close to that many models on the table fielding mostly archers, spearmen, and white lions.

I ran this once at 3k (as best as I can remember it) and think it would do fine against that army.

Spellweaver, lvl 4, Wand of the Wych Elm, Dispel
Naestra, Arahan, and Ceithin-Har
Altered Noble HotH, GW, HoDA (standard WE missile)
Wardance Noble, Blades of Loec
Spellsinger, Pagent of Shrikes, Dispel

10 Glade Guard
10 Glade Guard
5 Glade Riders, musician
5 Glade Riders, musician
5 Glade Riders, musician
8 Dryads
8 Dryads
8 Dryads

8 Wardancers
8 Wardancers
6 Wild Riders, muscian

Treeman

The 25 shots from my core units would pepper the Eagles no problem. Naestra would locked one unit down in place (princes probally) while the glade riders baited anything else. Arahan would make hit most of a spearmen unit with her bow each turn while the altered noble would do also to another unit with HoDA. Wardancers would eat the unranked white lions up in combat. It would be a fun battle, but I am not scared of that list.

Shamfrit
25-03-2008, 17:04
Treeman's Strangleroots would eat through a unit of White Lions a turn, hands down.

Nicely comprised, although I beg to ask why no Waywatchers?

xragg
25-03-2008, 17:08
Treeman's Strangleroots would eat through a unit of White Lions a turn, hands down.

Nicely comprised, although I beg to ask why no Waywatchers?

Aaaa, your right, I did have waywatchers. I said it was from memory. I either had one less glade rider or dryad unit, cant remember for sure. This is basically my Sisters of Twilight list.

Shamfrit
25-03-2008, 17:16
I was just thinking, killing blow shots from woods on those Great Eagles...

With a Waywatcher Lord and the Orb...you could pick them off with that unit alone, and then turn their fire on the White Lions.

Crispian25
25-03-2008, 17:16
So against a magic heavy army, take shooting. If her main focus is to use magic, go shooting. That much magic is hard to fight against, but anything that can hit the mages hard will cause some serious damage. Warmachines, characters on flying mounts, and fliers can get to the mages if they are behind the lines, also there is a Spell from the Dark Emissaries (sp?) and Bel'akor called Fog of Death which culls characters on their own.

blueon462
25-03-2008, 17:19
Druchii Highborn
-Black Dragon
-heavy armor, corsair cloak dealy
-Crown of black Iron
-Draich of Dark Power

Beastmaster
-Manticore
-armor that adds save per wnd caused

4 X Reapers

4 X chariots

4x 7 Darkriders w/ rxbs x musicians

This list has been fairly successful for me at 2250...in your case you have ~750 pts to play with...so have fun!

Putty
25-03-2008, 17:19
I was just thinking, killing blow shots from woods on those Great Eagles...

With a Waywatcher Lord and the Orb...you could pick them off with that unit alone, and then turn their fire on the White Lions.

i would rather try and take out the HE characters ;-)

but it might be realllll slow. considering its only 5 - 10 (i doubt 10 WWs...) shots per round.

Shamfrit
25-03-2008, 17:22
i would rather try and take out the HE characters ;-)

but it might be realllll slow. considering its only 5 - 10 (i doubt 10 WWs...) shots per round.

Hochland Long Rifles wound do a considerably better job.

Malorian
25-03-2008, 17:25
I was just thinking, killing blow shots from woods on those Great Eagles...

With a Waywatcher Lord and the Orb...you could pick them off with that unit alone, and then turn their fire on the White Lions.

The problem with these elite shooter is the magic. I'm sure Teclis would be sending a fire ball or two before too long. (Plus I don't think you can killing blow them...)

This is actully a prett crazy list (as long as those small units of white lions are legal). I'm having trouble trying to think of how my armies would beat this:

Brets: Eagles march blocking/redirecting me. If I hit you're stubborn and then counter charge me...

Ogres: There aren't even champs in those spears to use my tenderiser/challenge trick... it would be messy and those spears would rip me apart.

Wood elves: I only have 2000, and it's ultra shooty so I could do a lot of damage. The main concern would be that magic. It would come down to a game of cat and mouse between Teclis and my dragon

Lizardmen: Probably my best option. Go gatling slann and use salamanders to wipe out small units before they are a problem. Just have to hope I roll well for my priests spells.

That's a really scary list...

forthegloryofkazadekrund
25-03-2008, 17:28
magic, hah!!

assassinate the magic users with
chaos dwarf lord with the talisman of obsidian, great taurus, heavy armour, shield

talisman of obsidian means he cant be targeted by magic whatsoever


backed up by a magical/artillery army with a 500 hobgoblin meatshield with multiple earthshaker cannons and 10 bolt throwers

kiron
25-03-2008, 18:33
don't worry guys, I already tried 3 dragons (played HE) took 2 star dragons and dragon mage (loaded with scrolls) and 6 RBTs and the rest archers and dragon princes/silver helms (still had to have an semi-all comers list)

It was a COMPLETE disaster. By turn 3 the all 3 dragons were gone. Having two mages casting pits and unseen lurker was just a nightmare. Stupid dragon initiative absolutely useless. You forget the flexibility of the spells, Teclis is NOT stuck taking High magic, it depends on the army its pitted against.

Also tried the 3 treemen WE treesinging route. Treesinging costing 7+ to cast pretty much destroys the whole strategy and having 1 Treemen go bye bye each turn to pits was not good either.

Lord Kroak sucks too, pits is REALLY annoying!

kiron
25-03-2008, 18:40
As for point costs

Teclis-475
Archmage-lvl 4,book of hoeth-360
commander-BSB,elven steed,heavy armor,battle banner-210


25 spearmen-standard and musician-240
25 spearmen-standard and musician-240
25 spearmen-standard and musician-240
25 spearmen-standard and musician-240

5 dragon prince-full command,banner of sorcery,skein sliver-275
6 white lions-90
6 white lions-90
6 white lions-90
5 white lions-75
5 white lions-75

6 Great eagles-300

1045 points for Chars
960 for Core
695 for Special
300 for Rare

3000 points exactly

Eisenhorn
25-03-2008, 18:54
I think a The Good old Clan skyre SAD list would pound this to the ground

I dont have my book with me but something along these lines

Grey seer
wraplock engineer
wraplock engineer
wraplock engineer
wraplock engineer
wraplock engineer

Storm vermin with anti flyer banner
25 clan rats
25 clan rats
25 clan rats
25 clan rats
25 clan rats
20 slaves
20 slaves
20 slaves
20 slaves
20 slaves
ratling gun
ratling gun
ratling gun

then fill up the rest with jezzails

Shamfrit
25-03-2008, 18:57
Lord Kroak sucks too, pits is REALLY annoying!

SEAL it, destroy the spell. Your opponent will suddenly not be amused.

DarthSte
25-03-2008, 19:00
Chars: 3
1 Teclis (High Magic)
1 Archmage-lvl 4,book of hoeth
1 commander-battle standard,heavy armor,barded steed,battle banner

Core: 4
25 spearmen-standard and musician
25 spearmen-standard and musician
25 spearmen-standard and musician
25 spearmen-standard and musician

Special: 6
5 dragon princes-full command,skein sliver,banner of sorcery
6 white lions
6 white lions
6 white lions
5 white lions
5 white lions

Rare: 6
6 great eagles

3000 points
142 models
16 units + 3 chars
10+2d3 power dice: 6+d3 dispel dice + scroll of hoeth
*All spells cast are IF if gets doubles other than double 1s*


Sorry if I've missed something, but I thought with 3K you could only take 4 special and 2 Rare choices? She has 6 and 6... Unless I am much less familiar with the rules than I think I am, or this is some quirk of High Elves (of whom I am unfamiliar with) then surely this is an illegal list?

kiron
25-03-2008, 19:17
I think a The Good old Clan skyre SAD list would pound this to the ground

I dont have my book with me but something along these lines

Grey seer
wraplock engineer
wraplock engineer
wraplock engineer
wraplock engineer
wraplock engineer

Storm vermin with anti flyer banner
25 clan rats
25 clan rats
25 clan rats
25 clan rats
25 clan rats
20 slaves
20 slaves
20 slaves
20 slaves
20 slaves
ratling gun
ratling gun
ratling gun

then fill up the rest with jezzails

She hasn't faced a SAD list yet, but i'm guessing she would let the archmage take high magic instead then let Teclis take death or shadow. She would use drain magic as usual and probably vauls the antiflying banner if has a chance. But the shadow would either allow for first turn charge of the dragon princes (probably smach into the slaves in front of the Greyseers unit or the Grey seer's unit itself.

Another possibility is to doom and darkness the greyseer's unit and then try to panic it off the board. Either way, the magic from the skaven list i believe will be minimum due to drain magic. The jezzails will not be able to shoot down enough spearmen after is it DOES take down the white lions (a single white lion squad can potentially hold a clanrat squad for a long time).

If the BSB was in a spearmen unit then the lone spearmen is strong enough to charge head first into any skaven unit regardless if it is flanked due to the high CR generated anyways. (BSB cancels flanked. Will suffer from 1 outnumeber and 3 ranks, standards cancel out. So the elves are down four, which they can make up in kills and then +d6 CR) and even if loss, will unlikely break due to BSB. Netherless if the unit is support on the flanks by spearmen or white lions.

The SAD has potential, but nowhere near guarantee win, also ld. problems from skaven will be easily exploited by my friend.

Also remember, do not make lists TAILORED to fight hers because her list is an all comers balanced list. I'm asking for glaring weaknesses which can be exploited. From what I see, the impact of shooting is negligable due to either high saves (3+ for white lions, and 2+ for princes) or too high numbers. The eagles were meant to be cannon fodder and they are numerous and cheap.

The biggest threat I can find so far are spell destroying items, but a army tends to be limited to just one (unless empire flying captasus which will be the first thing dead mind you or at least have casket vauled)


Sorry if I've missed something, but I thought with 3K you could only take 4 special and 2 Rare choices? She has 6 and 6... Unless I am much less familiar with the rules than I think I am, or this is some quirk of High Elves (of whom I am unfamiliar with) then surely this is an illegal list?

HE have a different force organization chart which is +2 special/rare for every 1000 points and HE have basic 4 special and 2 rare slots.

Shamfrit
25-03-2008, 19:20
Those limits are for 2k, however, you're right, there are too many rare slots.

neo_ebrick
25-03-2008, 19:28
you have to remember the new rules for high elves at 2000 points you can take 6 special and 4 rare.

at 3000 it's 7 special and 6 rare

Shamfrit
25-03-2008, 19:39
She hasn't faced a SAD list yet, but i'm guessing she would let the archmage take high magic instead then let Teclis take death or shadow. She would use drain magic as usual and probably vauls the antiflying banner if has a chance. But the shadow would either allow for first turn charge of the dragon princes (probably smach into the slaves in front of the Greyseers unit or the Grey seer's unit itself.


Firstly, I'd like to object to the casual casting aside of 'she'll do this, or take that.' Firstly, she might have constructed what appears to be a stable build, but as with all builds, there are methods and tactics that exploit the strengths of the enemy, and return it to them (think taoist, or if not, think of casting Protect on yourself.)

Now you seem to think that High Magic Wielders are by far superior to every other, but they are not. I will defend this opinion to the last man and say the Greyseer will outpower the High Mage Lord with disgusting ease. Factor in a Screamin Bell, and not only do you have a MR2 unit, you also have a protected Grey Seer, and some potentially game changing effects rolled into a nice and useful chariot of sorts. Panic comes in various forms, as does Immune To Psychology, Stubborn and Hatred, all of which will help depending on the frequency of their arrival. Your main problem here my friend, is not the amount of dice (I've had 16 at 2k with Skaven before) but the item the Arch Mage is carrying, the Book of Hoeth.



Another possibility is to doom and darkness the greyseer's unit and then try to panic it off the board. Either way, the magic from the skaven list i believe will be minimum due to drain magic. The jezzails will not be able to shoot down enough spearmen after is it DOES take down the white lions (a single white lion squad can potentially hold a clanrat squad for a long time).


Not going to happen. If you can't scare a bell and unit off the board with two treemen and a large unit of Eternal Guard, a small unit of knights is coming nowhere close to doing it.

And I'm sorry, under what impression did you think 5-6 White Lions, after being shot at or Warp Lightning were going to even scratch a fully ranked unit of Clan Rats with a Static Combat Resolution High Elves can't even dream about? I don't mean to sound confrontational here, but surely, +5 going into combat is a serious obstacle for 6, at best Elves.



If the BSB was in a spearmen unit then the lone spearmen is strong enough to charge head first into any skaven unit regardless if it is flanked due to the high CR generated anyways. (BSB cancels flanked. Will suffer from 1 outnumeber and 3 ranks, standards cancel out. So the elves are down four, which they can make up in kills and then +d6 CR) and even if loss, will unlikely break due to BSB. Netherless if the unit is support on the flanks by spearmen or white lions.


Then you bait with Slaves, draw that unit out into the open flank, rip it apart with a round of Warp Lightning and Ratlings Guns, let it spend a turn wheeling, then charge it. Stats mean nothing to Skaven, anyone who goes Mathhammer with Skaven is ultimately missing the point (ignoring the static CR comment above) pressure and attrition is the Skaven game, with tails :skull:




The SAD has potential, but nowhere near guarantee win, also ld. problems from skaven will be easily exploited by my friend.


Absolutely a moot point, every single game a Skaven player plays has this exact, same, problem. For the first 3-4 turns our LD is 9 with a Grey Seer, after that? If you're losing, you lose in Style - problem? Shouldn't be, because you're going to not lose to begin with :D Or that's the plan.



Also remember, do not make lists TAILORED to fight hers because her list is an all comers balanced list. I'm asking for glaring weaknesses which can be exploited. From what I see, the impact of shooting is negligable due to either high saves (3+ for white lions, and 2+ for princes) or too high numbers. The eagles were meant to be cannon fodder and they are numerous and cheap.


Have you seen the Strength and Ap on Jezzails these days? Goodbye Dragon Princes. And...did you just say 'too high number' in the same sentance as a High Elf Unit? :confused: As for 6 eagles being numerous, you can get nearly 400 slaves for 6 eagles, I guarantee the Slaves will come out on top.



The biggest threat I can find so far are spell destroying items, but a army tends to be limited to just one (unless empire flying captasus which will be the first thing dead mind you or at least have casket vauled)


One is more than enough - seal away Pit? Game done, seal away Vaul's? Anti-Fly banner solved.



HE have a different force organization chart which is +2 special/rare for every 1000 points and HE have basic 4 special and 2 rare slots.[/QUOTE]

xragg
25-03-2008, 19:45
Jezzails are -4 to armor saves, meaning only the princes get a 6+ save. Skaven have good leadership (9-10) until you flank them. Somehow your breaking 5 Jezzail units on the first turn??? Otherwise, you may as well throw one of those small units away each turn per Jezzail unit shooting.

You act as if those 2 wizards can wreck so much havock. Its only 2 level 4's that need LoS for alot of the spells you mentioned. Teclis is not as big of a threat as you make him out to be. Teclis is too easy to kill if he shows himself. HE players I play tend to take heavens lore and hide him cause he dies so often if not. The IF doesnt happen every time, which is how you protray it. 13.8% IF on 2 dice, 27.7% IF on 3 dice, and so on.

As far as pits, only WE dragons (50%) and treeman (66%) have to worry (which will stay out of LoS as much as possible), everything else in the WE army laughs at that spell. Naestra and Arahman are virtually immune to that spell, unless you roll very badly. That wood elf list doesnt use treesurfing at all, it relies on out manuvuering you. I actually take lore of life with that list. Again, Teclis is easy to kill alone with units like waywatchers, or panicing/breaking/pinning a unit he is in.

And if skaven want to go magic heavy at 3k, they can max out at 72 power dice (counting warpstones), but thats overkill and the rats tend to hurt themselves more then their opponents.

Feefait
25-03-2008, 19:59
I'm thinking from your responses that most of her success is psychological. I mean if you go into a battle and see this list and think "man i'm dead", or even while constructing your own army you have doubts well then, you probably won't do so well. A few dice rolls either way will screw the best list. Yes, this is a very, very good list it seems. But no army is unstoppable. Personally I think my skaven horde army would conquer it. Take out my slaves with your lions... or swarms or whatever. I got more. I think right now it is just cobinations, Particularly if you bring the same set up and she has designed to counter that. Try going completely nuts. By the way... what do you play and bring?

Eisenhorn
25-03-2008, 20:00
Okey i did up a list from memory after turning my brain inside out to rember all the points. this is basicaly my 2000 point skyre list with 1000pts added as i would have done to make it an all comers list. Anyway here goes

Warlord, bands of power and a sword making him strike first, and warpstone armor, 4+ ward save item 181 (ithink)

Warplock engineer tooled up 2 scrolls 135
Warplock engineer tooled up 2 scrolls 135
Warplock engineer tooled up 2 scrolls 135
Warplock engineer tooled up eye and scroll 135
Warplock engineer tooled up deamon and scroll 135

24 Clanrats + standar 130
24 Clanrats + standar 130
24 Clanrats + standar 130
24 Clanrats + standar 130
24 Clanrats + standar 130
24 Clanrats + standar 130

20 slaves 40
20 slaves 40
20 slaves 40
20 slaves 40
20 slaves 40
20 slaves 40

Ratling gun 60
Ratling gun 60
Ratling gun 60
Ratling gun 60
Ratling gun 60
Ratling gun 60

3 Poisonen wind globadiers 30
3 Poisonen wind globadiers 30
3 Poisonen wind globadiers 30
3 Poisonen wind globadiers 30
3 Poisonen wind globadiers 30
2 Poisonen wind globadiers 20

5 jezails 100
5 jezails 100
5 jezails 100
5 jezails 100
5 jezails 100
5 jezails 100

Totale 2996
Power dice: 12 (13:D) + two bound spells
Dispell dice: 7 + 8 scrolls

I would let her deploy her withe lions and great egales point for point they are alot more expencive than PWG and Slaves then i would scroll Drain Magic.

Then its time to open fire on Teclis and his friends, and rember skaven can cast and shoot into combat :angel:

Gorog Irongut
25-03-2008, 20:01
An offensive dwarf list should handle this fairly easily. At 2k you can fit in about 170 dwarf warriors. At 3k you can get a shedload more.

Things to bring:
1. Runesmith with 1 Rune of Spellbreaking
2. MR of Grungni in a unit of longbeards
3. Possibly the MR of Valaya on your bsb
4. All characters take an oathstone if possible and have the R of Stone. No other runic stuff is needed unless mentioned.
5. All special slots are spent on bolt throwers (10 total) one of which will be an exploding bolt thrower
6. I would be tempted to take 3 organ guns but it's probably overkill.


Line up in a checkerboard pattern and advance 6" a turn en masse. Eventually they will be ground up against the dwarfen anvil and be crushed as the dwarfs will find it hard to run away from any unit but the one with +d6 CR and noone beats dwarfs in a war of attrition (except for the undead really).

Here's a quick sample list
BSB w/ R of Stone and Oath Stone... 115
Thane w/ R of Stone, Sh, GW, and Oathstone...96
Thane w/ R of Stone, Sh, GW, and Oathstone...96
Thane w/ R of Stone, Sh, GW, and Oathstone...96
Thane w/ R of Stone, Sh, GW, and Oathstone...96
Runesmith w/ R of Stone, Sh, GW, and Spelleater Rune...126
Character Points Total... 625

14 Longbeards w/ Shield...168
Champ & SB w/ MR of Grungni...70 Total...238
20 Warriors w/ Shield, SB, and Champ... 200
20 Warriors w/ Shield, SB, and Champ... 200
20 Warriors w/ Shield, SB, and Champ... 200
20 Warriors w/ Shield, SB, and Champ... 200
20 Warriors w/ Shield, SB, and Champ... 200
20 Warriors w/ Shield, SB, and Champ... 200
20 Warriors w/ Shield, SB, and Champ... 200

9 Bolt Throwers... 405
Bolt Thrower w/ MR of Immolation... 75
Special Choices Total... 480

Organ Gun... 120
Organ Gun... 120
Rare Choices Total... 240


Points... 2983
Models... 196
Combat Units... 8
WarMachines... 12
PD 2
DD 5 + Magic Resistance for any unit targeted with an Oathstone

Bretonnian Lord
25-03-2008, 20:16
Don't have my army book with me, but off the top of my head this is a Bretonnian army around 3000 points (ballpark estimate) to counter that elf list...

KNIGHT ERRANT SPAM!!

Bretonnian Lord OR Prophetess, whatever suits your fancy. (Joins a unit of Knights). Actually, you could probably have a Paladin lead the army if you really wanted to save pts. Lord is only there for LD and Prophetess to fight magic with magic.

Two Level 2 Damsels (Each joins a unit of Knights)
-4 Dispel Scrolls
-Horses

Paladin BSB (Joins a unit of Knights)
-War banner
-Virtue of Duty

8 Knights Errant
-Full Command

8 Knights Errant
-Full Command

8 Knights Errant
-Full Command

8 Knights Errant
-Full Command

9 Knights Errant
-Full Command

9 Knights Errant
-Full Command

9 Knights Errant
-Full Command

20 Peasant Bowmen
-Skirmishers

5 Pegasus Knights

3 Trebuchets

That's about one unit of 9 Knights for each unit he has...

Plus Peasant Bowmen/Trebuchets/Pegasus Knights to kill his eagles/other pesky things.

And the Damsels are there to just give magic defense against the occasional spell that will get through... hell, you could probably swap them out for more knights.

You asked for it. :skull:

Shamfrit
25-03-2008, 20:16
Don't bother with 8 scrolls, Book of Hoeth should see most of those points wasted. 4-6 should cover it, giving you another unit of Slaves, or perhaps switch a Ratling or two for a Warpfire thrower...that one lucky panic might tip the balance.

Von Wibble
25-03-2008, 20:44
It was a COMPLETE disaster. By turn 3 the all 3 dragons were gone. Having two mages casting pits and unseen lurker was just a nightmare. Stupid dragon initiative absolutely useless. You forget the flexibility of the spells, Teclis is NOT stuck taking High magic, it depends on the army its pitted against.



She took shadows against high elves?! Pit is useless against most of them and when she chooses the lore she won't know that you have dragons.

I agree with the comments on psychology beating you here. Look at the army

Strengths - powerful offensive magic
good manouvrability

Weaknesses - units are poor in combat one on one
- magic defense can be exploited - 7-9 dice is reasonable but not exceptional. 1 scroll.
- lots of small units and no Ld 10 means psychology can be a factor
- expensive T3 troops vulnerable to shooting

Conclusion - there are many options to go that could win through

1) Assassin - hochland long rifle, pageant of shrikes + hunters bow, suicide chargers, - anything to threaten teclis' death and force him to hide or gamble and prioritise targetting those units. Which for the most part are cheap and hiding where the real power of the army could lie

2) Target saturation - an extension of the above - give teclis so many targets in one go that he can't possible stall all of them. You will take casualties but something will get through and just one unit in combat with teclis will severely swing things in your favour. The skaven and bret army suggested both make good use of this. An ambush beast force could also do this really well - maybe with khazrak.

3) Shoot it - empire, dwarfs, brets (!), wood elves are all equiped to shoot a lot of the army down. Chaos, dark elves, skaven, undead are all capable of doing their own domination in the magic phase meanwhile. Tomb kings can combine the 2.

4) She might get unlucky - last time I used an archmage, I gave her the item to avoid a miscast. I rolled 2 miscasts in a row, and then followed up next magic phase with 2 miscasts. I tend to avoid magic heavy after that!

HellRaid
25-03-2008, 21:13
Here's a list that would probably win aginst it, and do fairly well against most other armies.

Vampire Lord of Destroying Book of Hoeth
Lore of Metal (for law of gold, obviously)
+2 Power dice
Raise Skeletons
Magic Lvl 3
Any Magic Items of choice

Vampire Lord of Killing Stuff with Spells
Lore of Vampires (all spells)
+2 Power dice
Raise skeletons
Magic Lvl 3
Any Magic Items of choice

Jack-in-the-box Vampire
M9 (via magic item)
Book of Arkhan
Infinite Hatred
+1 CR
Designed to 'pop out' and kill key enemy characters. The book of arkhan is there just in case they flee, and I should be able to make them flee again (or catch them) with a successful casting.

Vampire of Zombie Magicness
+2 Power Dice

Vampire of Skeleton Magicness
Summon Skellies
+1 Magic Level

25 Skeletons, Full Command
25 Skeletons, Full Command
25 Skeletons, Full Command
25 Skeletons, Full Command

Corpse Cart with -1 to cast for nearby enemy wizards
Corpse Cart with -1 to cast for nearby enemy wizards
Corpse Cart with -1 to cast for nearby enemy wizards

Black Coach
Black Coach
Black Coach

Excess points = ZOMBIES!!! :D


18 PD, 9 DD
-3 to cast for enemy casters if deployed right.
Three opportunities to steal enemy PD and make your Black Coaches even more awesome.


With a bit of tweaking, this should fit into 3000pts - especially if neither of the Lords recieve massed magic items. Maybe a bit of armour here and there.

I think, perhaps, that this list might control the magic phase.

EvC
25-03-2008, 21:22
Haha, brilliant VC counter list. The Balefire Corpse Carts are especially gewd because Teclis and the Archmage still need to make the successful casting rolls (So 15+ for the top-end spells) :D

winkypinky
25-03-2008, 21:42
I think the 3k bracket is a very hard place for one to boast "I have the strongest list" - The only player ever to gain that title, whoes name escapes me, was the one who won the 5th ed. 3k beard challange.
Also consider some very lame scenarios:
500 skinks?
350 Duelists with Pistols?
3 Dragons?
KF on dragon + War Altar + 3 stanks and 6 mortars
Maybe a mix with some cannos, would utterly destroy her (?) army for certain. With either 40+ knights or 120+ handgunners for the rest of the army. (or again a mix)

I could Imagine all 4 above lists would actually tear her list apart. (maybe not so much the dragon list unless it has loads of Dp's) Since it is shooting lists that relies on numbers, so her magic will become awfully expensive for very little. And that was just poor army ideas that would beat her army very very bad.

Benigno (WE)
25-03-2008, 22:08
I love the Skaven army. That's amazing!

kiron
25-03-2008, 22:23
So from the looks of it, most of the army you presented are the top tear lame cheese armies which very few people have the money to field or paint. Very rarely do I see a High elf army that fields core infantry for one. I like to applaud her for that.

All the lists mentioned are good, just extremely hard to find the right models to play with. I play empire atm.

My model range

20 handgunners
100 swordsmen
30 spearmen
40 knights
10 white wolves
2 steam tank
2 cannons
1 mortars
120 greatswords
10 pistoliers
4 mages
BSB
4 generals/captains
war altar
2 priests/archlector
30 flaggelants

I tend to be very infantry oriented (i'm glad she is too).

And Btw the chances of IF on 4 dice is 70+% which is what she generally uses so drain magic has a really high effect against magic heavy armies. As well the unseen lurker is really strong vs. unsuspecting opponents who have their general deployed in a big unit near the front with dragon princes and +d6 CR BSB and first turn bam, you're general's unit is well dead...

It's just her casting 80% of her spells with IF is really annoying and it would really seem unfair if I just took a list that completely disregarded magic because I know in an all-comers list I should include magic.

BTW, the knight errant list would get diverted to hell with the eagles and the single white lion units can tear each knight errant unit knight despite losing CR due to stubborn. And her army does have ld. 10 (stupid ld. 10 Teclis!) so psy isn't that big of a deal.

And btw that Vampire army....2 drain magics (if both take High) will cripple the magic potential very bad (despite corpse cart and 1st drain magic, a 13+ isn't that hard on 4 dice for 2nd drain magic).

As for suiciders, Teclis tends to be in a white lion unit so the 6 str 6 attacks tends to kill most suiciders before they can attack.

Shamfrit
25-03-2008, 22:47
Warp Lightning, even after two Drain Magic Spells cast, is D6 S5 hits with a 11+ to cast. Or 15+ for the 2D6.

Thanquol can manage that with ease.

bert n ernie
25-03-2008, 23:09
I feel the skaven army lacked in a few things that could have been taken advantage of.
If a WLC can be protected from the eagles then it could do a lot of damage. Also Warlocks would do very well if given Death Globes(PWG shots with a scattered template). The units are so big it'd be a shame to not take em. I'd also look into hidden assasains, or since we're talking all comers lists, I'd set up my tunneling team markers near where the eagles are most likely to go first and hopefully prevent them from going anywhere they please for risk of being poisoned to death.
Kiron, you may think that some of the aforementioned armies are cheese, but I don't see how they are moreso than hers. Some of those armies work on the basis of spamming one unit type to the exclusion of a balanced list, just like hers does. In what way is one cheesier than the other? Personally I'd rather a grey seer(w/ bell if possible) and a couple of warlocks or even a few combat characters beyond the warlord in the skaven list(assasains etc). I don't see how that's unbalanced. Skaven Skyre themed armies are all about a big bunch of clanrats with slaves backed up by a good dollop of weaponry.Using 4 dice for each spell may guarantee many of the spells with be IF but it does not allow for many actual spells to be cast. If 1/2 of the skaven warlocks could be brought to bear on Teclis's unit they would do far for damage to it than Teclis could do to them in this situation. Two turns, three at tops should be enough. Plus every time she doesn't get IF you should have plenty of dice/scrolls to ensure that particular spell won't be used.
I also don't think that you should take magic in an all comers list. You may say that hers is an all comers list, but it is no more an all comers list than a list that disregards magic is. They're just different ways of playing.
I can't believe that suciders are having troubles with one 6 stong unit, no matter the strength of the unit. I guess they hide behind other units? A WLC, a death globe, a unit of PCBs, a good few PWGs, even a few slave units with the rest of the army shooting into it should all deal with this in short order. I wish I knew more about Empire to help you on that front, but there should be a way of taking out a 7 stong unit(inc Teclis), even if its hiding, with your empire army.
Do you have anything that is a suicider that can also take ASF, or that is a character that can force a challenge? Perhaps a stone thrower for shooting at the unit?Your army seems to have a bit of a mix match of things. This is great for purely just for fun games, but if you're looking to win I'd lean more towards some kind of theme. To be honest I'd do that anyway without winning in mind.
You have a smattering of cannons, 2 steam tanks(what do these join up with to create the hammer of your anvil?), a tad bit of other shooting. Some average combat units, some fast cav units, some special frenzy units who probably run off by themselves mostly. And perhaps a couple of random things that I've missed.
She has:
Very defensive infantry block units.
Small hard hitting units.
Flying interference.
Magic.
Everything is far more concentrated and role orientated for her. At 300pts of fantasy every army plays like skaven/guard. You NEED to take multiple units to deal with any kind of threat. What threat do 100 swordsmen deal with? o they hold your line to protect your guns? Do they advance into the jaws of her defensive inf(which doesn't seem like a great idea)?
Can you take any fear causing units? Even if its a giant it could be useful to try out.
What combat res modiefiers do you have available, or can you take many frenzied/stubborn etc units so that you can grind her down mroe easily.
Could you take enough long range shooters, many cannons/indirect guns and still have room for skirmishingshooting units to deal with her fast moving flyers? If so why not go that route?
IU have not played you, so I may be making an uninformed judgement call, but it seems your army lacks any real focus, and hers has it in spades.

Goldenwolf
25-03-2008, 23:33
If she's so dominant, then play in the 'Ard Boyz tourney, and we'll see what happens.

I personally think that 2 Rock Lobbas and 2 Doom Divers would put paid to those pesky spell casters.

scatterlaser
25-03-2008, 23:45
It was a COMPLETE disaster. By turn 3 the all 3 dragons were gone. Having two mages casting pits and unseen lurker was just a nightmare. Stupid dragon initiative absolutely useless.
If a composite model (ie a Highborn on a Dragon) has to take a characteristic test, you use the best value from both components. If a ridden Dragon gets hit by Pit of Shades, you'll be testing on the Highborn's Initiative 8 rather than the Dragon's Initiative 3, so you're fairly safe. It's in the general rulebook FAQ and errata on the GW site.

kiron
26-03-2008, 01:26
If a composite model (ie a Highborn on a Dragon) has to take a characteristic test, you use the best value from both components. If a ridden Dragon gets hit by Pit of Shades, you'll be testing on the Highborn's Initiative 8 rather than the Dragon's Initiative 3, so you're fairly safe. It's in the general rulebook FAQ and errata on the GW site.

Oh, that's nice to know. Maybe that battle may have turned out differently

Just curious regarding ASF, for swordmasters vs. spearmen, the swordmasters have higher I but they wield a greatweapon which automatically brings I to 0 so who strikes first? HE spearmen or swordmasters? So far we played with spearmen striking first (we laughed when we saw 300 points of swordmasters get repulsed repeately by 240 points of spearmen despite swordmaster charging).

xragg
26-03-2008, 01:34
...I had quoted you, but I hate making huge posts. People can scroll up if they want to see what I am replying too. :)


A. Irresistable force on 4 dice is about 59% for Teclis, not 70%. Of the 1296 combinations, 360* wont be doubles. 171** of the doubles will have double 1's. (1296-171-360)/1296=~59%. That also shows about a 13% chance to miscast on 4 dice. I didnt write out every combination, but used shorthand, so I didnt want to state that the first reply in case I missed something. I welcome anyone to either check my math or state an easy way to compute this.

* ABCD where A, B, C, D represent each die. If A=/=B, then there are 12 combos of C and D where A, B, C, and D are all different numbers. There are 30 combos where A=/=B. Therefore, 30x12=360 combos where A, B, C, and D are all different numbers.
** 11$$, 1$1$, 1$$1, $11$, $1$1, $$11, Each of these 6 templates where $={2,3,4,5,6} has 25 combos. 111$, 11$1, 1$11, $111, Each of these 4 templates where $={2,3,4,5,6} has 5 combos. And lastly 1111 template has 1 combo. (6x25)+(4x5)+(1)=171 combos that produce double 1's.

B. How is Teclis not considered "top tear lame cheese armies"?

C. Any character suiciding into Teclis wont be hit by the white lions, as Teclis cant refuse a challenge in a unit with no ranks.

D. With your models, I would go heavy on infantry making STRONG use of your detachments. Make sure you detachments are only 3 wide so that the gap between your parents unit is small enough they cant be charged. The detachments will still go last after the counter-charge, but its 3 models on 1 against the tiny white lion units.

Kill the BSB asap when it charges you, challenge it with a good CC character, it also cant refuse.

Your Stanks can mess up the spears, just grind away.

Only 2 cannons with that many empire models, how un-empirey of you, just kidding.

I am sure a real empire player could give you more solid advice, as I can only relate to what I see them do when I play them.


Oh, that's nice to know. Maybe that battle may have turned out differently

Just curious regarding ASF, for swordmasters vs. spearmen, the swordmasters have higher I but they wield a greatweapon which automatically brings I to 0 so who strikes first? HE spearmen or swordmasters? So far we played with spearmen striking first (we laughed when we saw 300 points of swordmasters get repulsed repeately by 240 points of spearmen despite swordmaster charging).

Was actually a huge thread around this a few weeks ago with people arguing both sides. I personally read the rules that the spears would go first, for the reason you stated. If I find the thread, I will edit and link it here.

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126824
here it is, long and exhausting

SilverWarlock
26-03-2008, 02:09
as said the skaven would tear that list apart

you don't know the power of warplightning until you have faced it believe me

Also, I fail to see how teclis and one level 4 will stop 3000 points ... the rest of the army is essentially a bunch of bumpers, 4 blocks of spears and 3 units of knights. jezzails get rid of the knights in very short order (especially with their range), bumpers die (eagles cant hold combat, lions will die to ratlings like there is no tomorrow).

It's true it's a decent list, but no more than that

actually I would add a few 3 man tunneler teams to the skaven list for variety, could be fun to see what they do to teclis. Other options include throwing in WLCs to snipe off the birds, just to avoid them threatening the jezzails or ratlings (though warplightning should see them off pretty fast with the amount you have against the 7-9 dispell).

LKHERO
26-03-2008, 02:45
She claimed that Teclis will use High magic for the stubborn ability and drain magic mostly (with additional support spells on the side) and depending on the other lists the archmage does either metal (vs. empire tanks spell number 1 and 6), shadow, or another High (if facing super magic, 2x drain magic is good).

I stopped reading right there because that's utter garbage :X

Defender of Ulthuan
26-03-2008, 03:04
Daemonic Legion, you couldn't have arrived at a better time :)

Good list, but I'd never say unbeatable. Glade Guard+Treemen would eat that list, especially with a BotZ in a scout unit.... :)

Anyway, every army has it's own weakness/es, you just have to look harder to find some of them. shooting and heavy cav is the key to taking this list down. I would be quite surprised if it could ever beat a knight-heavy brett list. Too many ward saves for the lions, armor for the spears, and 2 casters are still only 2 casters, Teclis or otherwise.

Defender

P.S.- My Caledor list (nearly all dragon princes with 2 star dragons and lots of anti-magic at 3000pts) eats White Lions for breakfast

Lord Dan
26-03-2008, 03:51
We could throw lists at you all day without much positive effect, considering the fact that much of winning comes from your own choices throughout the battle, deployment, the moves of your opponent, and personal style of play. Simply saying: "SAD would mop the floor with it" is kind of a moot point in that respect.

I will, however, agree with all those who pointed out your pessimistic additude being your major drawback. Not to sound too Mr. Rogers, but you just need to go into each battle believing you can win it.

Now go fire up some crappy goblin list and do your best.

DarthSte
26-03-2008, 09:12
HE have a different force organization chart which is +2 special/rare for every 1000 points and HE have basic 4 special and 2 rare slots.


Fair enough. I'll keep quiet then... :)

Tiamat
26-03-2008, 09:34
No such thing as the unbeatable list. Her army is almost pure infantry, so comparatively slow. Seriously heavy cavalry charge will do for those Spearmen, S3 means they'll struggle against 2+ armour saves while lances and plenty of S5 attacks will butcher them wholesale. A few shooting units will do those white lions in no time, I mean 5 or 6 guys? Waste of time, 2 casualties, Oh no, you can't relieve me of my rank bonus any more. Plus she has no command or rank bonus of her own, hell, 25 Clanrats can charge head on and beat them through combat bonuses, I don't even need to kill any of them.

And Teclis, for all his magical might, is a wimp. T2? Long rifles, assassins (or assassin type characters, Scar Vet with Jaguar Charm) or a well placed charge will obliterate him.

And do you have any idea how many Skaven I can get for 3000 points? So what if she has Giant Eagles, the absense of shooting means that Ratling Guns, carefully placed to be out of spellcaster line of sight, will carve them to pieces. I can then simply overwhealm her with numbers, flank charges, etc.

It's a mighty claim to say, My army is unbeatable, and this list will not cut it. Ever. One character does not an army make Perhaps back in 4th ed, but not now.

Lucky24/7
26-03-2008, 10:07
well tomb kings taking 5 tomb scorpions could be fun.

ICFB and then charge in with them on a sucicidal mission to kill mages. cant be challanged away.

I still think the way to win here would be to snipe mages.

Oh and who cares about being stubbon when your outnumbered by fear........

Balgor
26-03-2008, 12:50
Ok I have a quick question. I only recently go back in to warhammer so some rules are a little hazy for me still.

But anyway here is my question.

Is the Book of Heoth, the item that if you roll a double on a spell it counts as total power?

If it is, is the HE player allowed to give it to the arch mage as Telcis has it, and I was under the understanding you could not take the same magic item twice apart from dispell scrolls and power stones.

Or is there a rule ignoring this when you use special characters as I never use them?

Festus
26-03-2008, 12:55
Hi

Teclis does not have the Book of Hoeth.
He has the same rules (ie. a sucessful spell with a double is cast with total power), but he does not have the Magic Item.

Festus

winkypinky
26-03-2008, 13:03
When I use Teclis, wich rarely happens. (I just dont think he is that much better than a archmage)
I often use a shadow warrior bodyguard for him. With a shadow stalker (the only time I will ever take one) to protect him from challanges, NikeVets, suicide chars and suchs. Not a "perfect" bodyguard in any way really, but it is one of the best altenatives that I have found compared to putting him in a fully ranked unit, which limits his magic. And if you put Teclis in a ranked unit. You need to use a lot of resources in protecting that unit. Since it is more or less given that the opponent will try to hit it hard. (and in the flanks or rear only unless it is WL's)

Festus
26-03-2008, 13:03
Hi

C. Any character suiciding into Teclis wont be hit by the white lions, as Teclis cant refuse a challenge in a unit with no ranks.
Well, unfortunately, he very much can refuse a challenge: A refusing character does not have to go to a back rank, but merely to a place which is not in fighting contact. Only if there is no such place, he cannot refuse the challenge.

BRB, p.77

Festus

kiron
26-03-2008, 13:53
well her list got modified for 2k battles

It's

Char: 1
1 Archmage-lvl 4,book of hoeth

Core: 2
25 spearmen-full command
10 archers

Special: 6
6 dragon prince-standard and musician,elryion banner
14 white lion-full command,banner of sorcery,skein sliver
4 tironac chariot

Rare: 4
4 RBT

2000 points

Still pummeled me to bits :C Never thought steam tanks were so vulnerable to RBTs...
The chariots are causing me lots of trouble (stupid annoying tag teams), i'm having a hard time choosing whether to shoot the chariots or the RBTs with my cannons...
BTW, it takes average of 1 turn of shooting to kill whole cannon crew. (24 shots RBT, 12 hits, 4 hit the crew, and about 2.3 dead, 10 archers, 5 hits, 1.67 hit crew, 0.8 dead, total to 3.1 crewmen dead). So I have limited turns shooting with cannons.
I only have 2 cannons as well and I refuse to take anymore cannons as it unbalances an empire list. 2 cannons and 2 steam tank normally is enough for artillery. 4 RBTs are okay as they are flexible and versatile while cannons are not.

Btw, she is almost guaranteed to go first with just 4 units plus warmachines to deploy especially with skein sliver (+2 to go first) so I usually start 1 cannon short.

And drain magic still screwed over my magic phase...

Lord Dan
26-03-2008, 14:32
Cannons should always go for chariots. Against her list, you should have four.

Anything that needs 4's to wound, has +1 to hit, and ignores armor saves will definately hurt your Steam Tank, my friend. Just keep an eye on them when you move, and make sure your Steam Tank isn't exposed first turn. (Especially considering the fact that she goes first quite often.)

What else do you have in you list? Handgunners should have laughed at those knights, countercharges should have happened, I'm just lost. Save your dispel dice from drain magic. (As a vampire player, it's basically the only spell aside from Vauls Unmaking that I'm much concerned about.)

And stop sounding so depressed.

Preacher
26-03-2008, 14:37
If Teclis is in a unit of 5 or 6 lions. I would just charge them with a fast moving unit of cav or flyers that have no command. Like my war hawk riders. Teclis would be dead. Now I d just have to deal with the other units. Shooting for the little lions units bait charge the DP and avoid the spearmen.

Just my two cents.

marv335
26-03-2008, 14:42
I'm not sure what the problem is with her 3000pt list.
It looks very vulnerable to me. Teclis is a liability in my mind, too easy to kill.
as to the magic power, remember the mages need to get the casting value as well as a double to get IF, a double on its own is not enough.

heinrichvoncarstein
26-03-2008, 14:50
I don't know. Personaly i think a vamp lord with nightshroud, red fury and sword of striking and infinite hate would rip through that list. Striking first and probably wiping out a unit of white lions a turn pluss raising loads of stuff. I mean, you said your friend said it was a resillent list. How the "!H#%&#!# is that a resillent list, ALL the units have 3 toughness!!!! A unit of blood knights for example would devestate this army!!

Spirit
26-03-2008, 14:50
I'm not sure what the problem is with her 3000pt list.
It looks very vulnerable to me. Teclis is a liability in my mind, too easy to kill.
as to the magic power, remember the mages need to get the casting value as well as a double to get IF, a double on its own is not enough.

You sure about that? Could you tell me where the rule is for this, i would love to use this against the HE players at my lgs

Iziuth
26-03-2008, 14:57
You can also shoot the RBT's with your cannons. T7 and 3 wounds is easy to kill with S10 d6 wounds. Maybe a mortar or two to kill the rank and file. Also she seems to be low and magical defense with only 4 Dispel Dice.

Was the arch mage in a unit?

Then using hochland rifles is the way to go, the arch mage has no save and t3. Kill it and the army looses its main asset. Then systematically kill the unit that are the most threatening to you (the fast ones first).

Hope this helps.

Shamfrit
26-03-2008, 14:59
I can't quote, but you have to make the casting cost of the spell and roll higher than a natural 3 regardless, for Irresistable Force (which stops dispelling) to work. If the spell wasn't cast with the required roll, then it technically leaves nothing to be Irresistabled.

Otherwise you'd cast Vaul's Unmaking on a Double 2....


THEN Book of Hoeth would be banned.

Lord Dan
26-03-2008, 15:08
Otherwise you'd cast Vaul's Unmaking on a Double 2....

You can cast Vaul's Unmaking on a double 2.

Shamfrit
26-03-2008, 15:10
I meant rolling a double 2 on two dice.

EvC
26-03-2008, 15:23
Yes, you can cast Vaul's Unmaking on a double 2, as long as you've also rolled enough dice to reach the normal casting value of 12. But not solely on a double 2, as Shamfrit says.

WillFightForFood
26-03-2008, 15:57
You forget the flexibility of the spells, Teclis is NOT stuck taking High magic, it depends on the army its pitted against.

Don't have to choose your magic before you know what army you're fighting? I understand that for practical purposes with friends she probably knows ahead of time. In a truly random matchup, though, she wouldn't get to tailor that list.

If you really want an OTT counter to that play a Dwarf gunline with Thorek, a second runesmith on an anvil, and as many spell eater runes as possible. She will a) Lose a number of spells. b) Not get many spells off c) Probably not have an army by turn 3.

Rock beats scissors.

Good old Rock, nothing beats rock.

marv335
26-03-2008, 16:02
You sure about that? Could you tell me where the rule is for this, i would love to use this against the HE players at my lgs

Very sure. Check the entry for Teclis and BoH in the HE army book. the rule says "successful cast including a double"
It's something that caught me out on the first couple of games with/against HE.
As is so often the case, people see what they want to see, not what is actually there.

shartmatau
26-03-2008, 17:01
Rock beats scissors.

Good old Rock, nothing beats rock.

thats classic.

neo_ebrick
26-03-2008, 17:29
i think everyones missing the point, you can always make a list to beat another list if you know what it is its using the list again and again and winning against people you don't know

Heimlich
26-03-2008, 17:52
I don't believe in this list, because I don't believe in special characters.

shartmatau
26-03-2008, 18:47
i may have missed it but could the player post his list used against this army? We could at least give advice on how that army could be used or adjusted to beat this army.
Cheers.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
26-03-2008, 19:59
I dont think the last is that great. Along with the fact that a couple missiles will have the army panicking and all the small units turned into gravy a little chariots for the spearmen and poof! Some big ugly quick moving lord could fly over to teclis and squish him. I dont think that list would be all the fun to play with. Not dynamic in my opinion. w/e :)

Conotor
26-03-2008, 21:40
I had no idea your could take units of 5 lions!

Anyway, what race do u have? Lizzards can take a -1 + vet to own lions, and a JSOD oldblood can take out the BSB before he can provide combat res...

kiron
26-03-2008, 22:50
Here is the list that I use now, more themed as I gave up on gun powder

Chars: 6
1 grandmaster-holy relic,laurels of victory
1 archlector-armor of meteoric iron,van horseman,great weapon (general)
1 mage-lvl 2,rod of power
1 mage-lvl 2,seal of destruction
1 warrior priest-heavy armor,shield,barded warhorse
1 BSB-knight kit,imperial banner

Core: 4
5 knightly order-musician
5 knightly order-musician
5 knightly order-full command,war banner (master here)
5 knightly order-full command,steel standard (priest here)

Special: 5
23 greatswords-full command (lector and BSB here)
6 archer detachment
9 swordsmen detachment

25 greatswords-full command
6 archer detachment
9 swordsmen detachment

25 greatswords-full command
6 archer detachment
9 swordsmen detachment

25 greatswords-full command
6 archer detachment
9 swordsmen detachment

25 greatswords-full command
6 archer detachment
9 swordsmen detachment

soots
26-03-2008, 23:19
Shes just trying to psyche you out.

FYI, that army cannot handle Cavalry/high save armies. Also, it has no shooting, or ability to take on mounted heroes (eagles are fodder). Also apart from the very soft elven spearmen there is no static combat points (and no melee characters to help out).

Theres a million ways to take out that list i dont know where to start.

Badbones777
27-03-2008, 00:51
(I've had 16 at 2k with Skaven before)
.[/QUOTE]

Hey Shamfrit, how did you go about this? Im getting 9-11 power dice (depndent on whether EOTHR works or not) in a current 2.5k build. Id be interested to know what mix of troops and items you chose to generate such a frightening number of dice!

Badbones777
27-03-2008, 00:59
Don't bother with 8 scrolls, Book of Hoeth should see most of those points wasted. 4-6 should cover it, giving you another unit of Slaves, or perhaps switch a Ratling or two for a Warpfire thrower...that one lucky panic might tip the balance.

Lol- I guess its a thing endemic to us Skaven players, but yeah, I too find myself chuckling inside when I consider how many slaves I coud get for the price of some magic item or tooled up unit-and slaves are more reliable!

SilverWarlock
27-03-2008, 01:41
Hey Shamfrit, how did you go about this? Im getting 9-11 power dice (depndent on whether EOTHR works or not) in a current 2.5k build. Id be interested to know what mix of troops and items you chose to generate such a frightening number of dice![/QUOTE]

easy

Seer, bell, eye of horned rat

3 warplock engineers

you now have 15 dice and 7 warpstone tokens, which means you can have 16 dice a turn without even buying more warpstone.

the lord should probably have warpstone charm and crown of the horned rat, the engis have to have (amongst them) storm demon, warp scroll (or several, can you still take multiple warp scrolls?) and maybe some dispel scrolls if you are paranoid.

fill in the rest of the points with a lot of clanrats and slaves, maybe WLC, jezzails and tunnelers to taste.

isidril93
27-03-2008, 14:53
it has loads of magic but if you take a lot of anti magic items she will have loads of trouble...a if you take a magic bow or something a shoot the wizards...you know what will happen

neo_ebrick
27-03-2008, 16:17
i think the point of her uber magic is both her mages ger IR forces on doubles, so if she's throwing 4-5 dice no matter how much anti-magic you have she's going to get spells off. yes take a flying mage killer and she would be in trouble.

Chicago Slim
27-03-2008, 17:39
It's a solid, magic-heavy infantry army, for sure. Still, I'd put money on my housemate's 3000 point Empire Gunline against this: 6 Hochland Long Rifles will make pretty quick work of those soft, squishy mages...

The High Elf shooting army I'm bringing to a tourney in a couple of weeks might do okay, too (6 RBTs, an Eagle Bolter, and Alith Anar; the plan is to get 2 enfilading bolt thrower shots on the knights, hitting on 2+, on Turn 1, throw out some march-blocking, and see where it goes from there. I'd have trouble from his eagles, but if the RBTs start by shooting the eagles, to keep them off my back, then so be it...)

WillFightForFood
27-03-2008, 20:24
i think the point of her uber magic is both her mages ger IR forces on doubles, so if she's throwing 4-5 dice no matter how much anti-magic you have she's going to get spells off. yes take a flying mage killer and she would be in trouble.

If she's throwing 4-5 dice she's only getting off 2-3 spells a turn because she only has, what, 10-11 power dice? Being able to count on a couple spells a turn is great, but not all that amazing.

I think a standard Thorek gunline with an additional runesmith on an anvil can handle that no sweat and probably take any other army you might throw at it.

neo_ebrick
27-03-2008, 23:16
i beg to differ on 3 spells a turn it is very powerfull! 2* 2D6 str 4 hits, and a flames of the phonix will slaughter two unit's a turn. in two turns your small inf blocks will have no problem with most units.

nurgle_boy
28-03-2008, 00:21
Surely the plague chalice, or hellheart could stump things... am I right in thinking that you would apply the miscast effect, but the spell then goes off as planned, with the hoeth or teclis doubles (that arent a 6)?

I imagine one of these could shut the magic phase down for a turn... especially with ogre miscast table...

Either way... the list seems beatable with the correct tactics, and a SaD...

shartmatau
28-03-2008, 01:29
I think a big problem is that with the army you posted you are being outdone in almost everything.
You have several small knight units that would be great except that the elves are striking first so you lose some effectiveness. You have several blocks of troops which would be good if you could get more attacks in. They will work out very well if you have your detachments get a flank charge but I bet she destroys them before you get into combat so you can't flank. And your character (while I'm not sure how many points they cost) aren't doing much for you. Your casters are ok but are probably being shut down due to not getting the right spells and because she has decent magic defense while you only have decent magic offense.

You could try switching some characters for more casters. You won't have the same effectiveness she has but she will succumb a little to more volume of offensive magic. Of course a cannon or two would help. If you want to stick without guns get some more archers to put more shots into the eagles and white lions. The lions have a good save but you only need to cause a handful of wounds to reduce the effectiveness of each unit. I would try to concentrate your units on the spear blocks and maybe use your detachments to block the white lions from flanking you when you charge.
thats all i got and its probably not very good advice.
I'm sure you have your reasons for leaving all the guns at home for a themed army but I really can't see how your army will deal with hers.