PDA

View Full Version : Where are the Primarchs now?



Crispian25
25-03-2008, 16:21
I've been trying to find out some information, especially with the new HH books coming out now. Can we create a list of all the information about the different Primarchs, such as weapons/wargear, where they are now, how and when they died (if dead) or disappeared, sightings/actions since the Heresy. I'm sure there are plenty of people who know more than me, but I'll make a post, and please add and correct as needed.

Chaplain Dionitas
25-03-2008, 16:37
Horus-Vaporized by the Emperor
Lion El'Jonson-In the deep deep bowels of The Rock
Ferrus Mannus-Beheaded by Fulgrim
Fulgrim-stuck in a painting/ Daemon prince
Leman Russ- Disappeared into the Warp (Will return for the last battle)
Rogal Dorn-Disappeared presumably dead. All that was found was his hand
Roboute Gulliman-In stasis on McCragge. had his throat slit by Fulgrim
Jaghati Khan-Chased some Eldar into the Webway and never came back
Sanguinius-Killed by Horus
Mortarion-Ascended in to Daemonhood
Perturabo-Ascended in to Daemonhood
Lorgar-Ascended in to Daemonhood
Angron-Ascended in to Daemonhood
Corax-Disappeared into the warp after feeling guilty (Manipulating the gene-seed of his legion)
Vulkan- For some reason I can remember
Night Haunter-Assassinated by M'Shen (Callidus Assassin)
Alpharius-Killed by Gulliman (Or was he? hmmmm?)
Magnus the Red-Got the beatdown from Russ. Retreated into the warp Ascended in to Daemonhood

EDIT: Sorry Iwas at work and typing quickly as well as a bit of laziness too. I just put the short short of it.

P.S. Vulkan did survive the Dropsite massacre. It was also noted that he, along with Russ and Dorn opposed having their legions broke down into chapters. He probably just tripped and fell into one of his forges. Doh!

Mechanicus
25-03-2008, 16:40
Rogal Dorn-Disappeared presumably dead. All that was found was his handNo, they found his remains. His hand is just an added point because it's the Imperial 'Fists'. Anyway, the IA (in the geneseed section) mentions "Dorn's eventual death". :D

Leman Russ- Disappeared into the Warp (Will return for the last battle)I don't think it was into the warp, but definitely disappeared and is said to be returning for the 'wolf time'.

Vulkan - For some reason I can rememberDisappeared a thousand years after his legion's founding. It was stated very vaguely. ;)

Apart from that, I agree with what has been said, unless I've missed something.

Crispian25
25-03-2008, 16:43
Legion 1: Dark Angels, Lion El'Jonson
Wielded the Lion Sword, Lion Helm
Supposedly died fighting Luthor, supposedly in stasis in the center of The Rock

Legion 2: Unknown

Legion 3: Emporer's Children, Fulgrim
Became a Daemon-Prince, killed Ferrus Manus

Legion 4: Iron Warriors, Perturabo
Became a Daemon-Prince

Legion 5: White Scars, Jaghatai Khan
Disappeared chasing Dark Eldar?

Legion 6: Space Wolves, Leman Russ
Disappeared going to fight Chaos

Legion 7: Imperial Fists, Rogal Dorn
Carried a Vortex Sword (from Soul Drinkers book series, can't remember name)

Legion 8: Night Lords, Nighthaunter
Became a Daemon-Prince?, Killed by a Callidus Assassin

Legion 9: Blood Angels, Sanguinius
Killed by Horus during the Seige of Terra

Legion 10: Iron Hands, Ferrus Manus
Killed by Fulgrim on Istvaan V

Legion 11: Unknown

Legion 12: World Eaters, Angron
Became a Daemon-Prince
Led a force against Armageddon, defeated by a force of 100 Grey Knights

Legion 13: Ultramarines, Robute Guilliman
Throat cut by ?, in Stasis, supposedly healing

Legion 14: Death Guard, Mortarion
Became a Daemon-Prince

Legion 15: Thousand Sons, Magnus the Red
Became a Daemon-Prince

Legion 16: Luna Wolves, Horus
Killed Sanguinius, mortally wounded the Emporer, Killed by the Emporer

Legion 17: Word Bearers, Lorgar

Legion 18: Salamanders, Volkan

Legion 19: Raven Guard, Corax

Legion 20: Alpha Legion, Alpharius

Crispian25
25-03-2008, 16:44
Sorry, I was writing that out. Thanks for the help so far.

Chaplain of Chaos
25-03-2008, 16:44
Over all betrayal seems the wisest decision if we see the comparison between loyalist primarchs and traitor primarchs.

I would like to hear Jagtai Khan's story though, I can just imagine him on an assault bike roaring like a madman as he dived into the warp.

I wonder how long he lived.

Crispian25
25-03-2008, 16:48
Also, what happened to the Legions that don't have Primarchs? In the history, as the Emporer finds his Primarchs, the Legions already exist, waiting for their leaders to be found. Thusly, the 2nd and 11th Legion exist without their Primarch, so where are they and what happened to them?

Mechanicus
25-03-2008, 17:00
No one knows. See here (http://forum.blpublishing.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=177). All twenty legions were led by their primarchs at some point. Beyond that, that post is one of the best guides to what may have happened. But that's a whole other topic... :p

EDIT: If you're interested, look here (http://menducia.atspace.com/primarchs/I.html) for some ideas, using astrology and the tarot, to determine the primarchs' personalities, including the missing two. It's quite impressive.

Skirnak
25-03-2008, 17:13
The only source I know that even mentions the 2nd and 11th legions is in the short story The Lightning Tower. It doesn't say anything about the primarchs, just that separate tragedies befell them a long time before the Heresy.

Crispian25
25-03-2008, 17:27
Awesome resources, thanks a lot! Unfortunately, it doesn't have any information. Can we say future summer campaign?

Gussy
25-03-2008, 18:00
Horus-Vaporized by the Emperor
Fulgrim-stuck in a painting/ Daemon prince


What does "stuck in a painting" mean?

Russ is supposedly gone looking for a cure for the Emperor.

Corax's and Vulkan's where abouts are supposedly unknown.

What does Ascended to Demonhood means? Are they still conscious and aware of who they are or have been taken over that they don't have a clue anymore.

Chaplain Dionitas
25-03-2008, 18:18
What does "stuck in a painting" mean?

Russ is supposedly gone looking for a cure for the Emperor.

Corax's and Vulkan's where abouts are supposedly unknown.

What does Ascended to Demonhood means? Are they still conscious and aware of who they are or have been taken over that they don't have a clue anymore.

Have you read the HH Book Fulgrim? If not then I apologize I should've put Spolier tags on that I guess

Ascended into Daemonhood means they were made Daemon princes and given their own worlds to rule over in the Eye of Terror. I'm fairly sure they're fully aware of who they were and what they did.

Again the last known thing about Corax was that he left saying "Nevermore"

Google people. Give it a try. Google the Primarchs

Crispian25
25-03-2008, 20:02
I'm trying to add in what they were physically like (Sanguinius' wings, Magnus' single eye), as well as wargear they carried.

different13
25-03-2008, 20:40
Alpharius had coppery skin, and eyes that could appear either blue or green. He had a heavy brow, similar to Horus. Oh, and he was bald. And quite possibly shorter than you might expect a Primarch to be. Think he simply carried a normal sword (sometimes described as a Gladius).

Night Haunter was tall, pale and gaunt (he frequently wore a cloak of black feathers, thereby giving off the general appearance of a giant crow). Can't remember anything about a specific weapon, though he did have a type of crown.

Vulkan had the skull of a Firedrake on one of his shoulders. He's frequently speculated to be black, but only because the Salamanders are often portrayed as such. I'd guess he had a hammer, but only because of all the smith-background fluff.

Ferrus Manus had silver eyes (completely silver), as well as flow-metal hands. He was ugly (and nick-named the Gorgon). His weapon was a hammer (in the new continuity, this is Forgebreaker, I think)

Fulgrim was beautiful. I think he had sharp, aquilline features, possibly white hair. 3 Swords - the Laer Blade, The Sunblade (or phoenix blade, I forget) and the Anatheme, I think.

Corax was pale and had black eyes (completely black).

Angron had many weapons - some include a huge chain-glaive, chain-axes, some kind of pistol...

Mortarion - tall, gaunt, had a scythe as well as the Lantern (some kind of energy/plasma/melta pistol?)
There's quite a few pictures that look accurate.

I think Russ is pretty obvious... Oh, his weapon of choice was a Frostblade, I believe.

Can't remember anything specific about Horus, Dorn, Roboute, Jaghatai etc...

Most of the primarchs have John Blanche sketches though (apart from Corax, Vulkan and Night Haunter; Alpharius has one, but it's rather rare, and doesn't reflect his appearance as of Legion).

Imperialis_Dominatus
25-03-2008, 22:14
Night Haunter-Assassinated by M'Shen (Callidus Assassin)

Presumably, the pict-feed cuts out though. ;)


I would like to hear Jagtai Khan's story though, I can just imagine him on an assault bike roaring like a madman as he dived into the warp.

I wonder how long he lived.

Who's to say he died? :p

EDIT: Oh, and Night Haunter didn't really use weapons IIRC. He generally used his bare hands.

DantesInferno
25-03-2008, 22:25
Presumably, the pict-feed cuts out though. ;)

The horror, the horror!

Lord Zso Sahaal
25-03-2008, 22:40
Leman Russ- Disappeared into the Warp
Roboute Gulliman-In stasis on McCragge.
Alpharius-Killed by Gulliman

Leman Russ - there are two version of the story, the first is that he left the fang in search of a cure for the emperor, and the second as you stated is that he dissapeared into the warp and will return for the last battle against chaos.
Gulliman - In stasis on McCragge but it is said that his wounds are slowly healing in the stasis tube which is impossible but thats what the fluff says.
Alpharius - Both of the Alpha Legions Primarchs (Alpharius and Omegon) were killed by Gulliman in hand to hand combat.

Lord Zso Sahaal
25-03-2008, 22:45
I just also remembered I think the Night Haunter had a set of lightning claws and a hand crafted bolter, both of which were gifted to his Legion Commander Captain Zso Sahaal at the end of the crusade just before his death at the hands of the assassin, he did not fight the assassin he let the assassin kill him, not sure of the reason though.

Eetion
25-03-2008, 22:48
Alpharius - Both of the Alpha Legions Primarchs (Alpharius and Omegon) were killed by Gulliman in hand to hand combat.


Wheres your source for that? Or even where concrete definite proof of just 1 of them?

Lord Zso Sahaal
25-03-2008, 22:52
Dan Abnetts Legion although doesnt get to them being killed does show both of the primarchs and also most of this is on wikipedia

Super Ninja
25-03-2008, 22:55
Alpharius - Both of the Alpha Legions Primarchs (Alpharius and Omegon) were killed by Gulliman in hand to hand combat.

Ummm, did I miss something? What's an "Omegon"? Was this guy a double for Alpharius or some realy trusted commander?

Lord Zso Sahaal
25-03-2008, 23:00
This is the problem with the new book Legion its opened up allot of fluff problems, the Alpha Legion was the only legion that their Primarch was a twin, so instead of founding an extra legion the Emperor put both of them in charge of the Alpha Legion. And yes in some ways he was a double for Alpharius, they both acted as the Primarch on separate occasions depending on combat actions and who they were dealing with. This is why the Alpha Legions badge is a Hydra. 'Cut off the head and two more shall take its place.'

Brother Enok
25-03-2008, 23:13
Would a spolier tag not have been wise if your going to go into a recently released book.
Well, maybe not wise. but considerate?

Lord Zso Sahaal
25-03-2008, 23:24
yeah sorry about that guys

Skirnak
26-03-2008, 00:24
So there are currently 21 primarchs, unless the Alpha-Omegon only count as one. Interesting.

Gue'la Koholic
26-03-2008, 00:52
I didn't realize that Legion was out yet. I'm glad you didn't put anything more into it...

I did read a while back that Abnett was stoked about putting sacred info(read: the fates of missing Primarchs) into Legion. I figured maybe it would have Alpharius killing someone. If there never really was a 2/11 legion, that's a bit of let down, I think. Maybe. It's interesting....

Imperialis_Dominatus
26-03-2008, 03:14
Alpharius - Both of the Alpha Legions Primarchs (Alpharius and Omegon) were killed by Gulliman in hand to hand combat.

As far as we know, Guilleman might have killed one. The report, however, is suspect, as the Inquisitor who made it was accused later of being involved in subversive cults and other such heretics. Even the Ultramarines, to whom the honor of their Primarch beating a traitor Primarch would be coveted (my daddy can beat up your daddy! Haha! :rolleyes:), have said that the report was not reliable.


Ummm, did I miss something? What's an "Omegon"? Was this guy a double for Alpharius or some realy trusted commander?

Don't worry about it, read Legion.


I did read a while back that Abnett was stoked about putting sacred info(read: the fates of missing Primarchs) into Legion. I figured maybe it would have Alpharius killing someone. If there never really was a 2/11 legion, that's a bit of let down, I think. Maybe. It's interesting....

All standing fluff outside BL still seems to indicate that all the Primarchs were found and did their part in the Great Crusade. I think at what point they were deleted is unknown, though I'd presume it was before the Heresy.


So there are currently 21 primarchs, unless the Alpha-Omegon only count as one. Interesting.

From what I've heard it's kind of a 'two bodies, one soul' sort of thing.

Koryphaus
26-03-2008, 04:13
As far as we know, Guilleman might have killed one. The report, however, is suspect, as the Inquisitor who made it was accused later of being involved in subversive cults and other such heretics. Even the Ultramarines, to whom the honor of their Primarch beating a traitor Primarch would be coveted (my daddy can beat up your daddy! Haha! :rolleyes:), have said that the report was not reliable.

There is an account in the Alpha Legion IA, made from an Ultramarines Squad Sergeant, that describes the actions immediately following the battle on Terra. Roboute Guilliman kills Alpharius in single combat, and the Ultramarines burn his body.

Im yet to read any of the HH books (one problem of being a uni student), so GW could easily have had its canon changed again...

Imperialis_Dominatus
26-03-2008, 04:18
There is an account in the Alpha Legion IA, made from an Ultramarines Squad Sergeant, that describes the actions immediately following the battle on Terra. Roboute Guilliman kills Alpharius in single combat, and the Ultramarines burn his body.

I might be getting fluff mixed up again. There was an Inquisitorial report involved, and I remember the sergeant's report now...

That's it then. The Inquisitor was accused of working with cults and subversive agents (read: probably AL) and the Ultras decided the sergeant's report was untrustworthy. I don't really remember from what source this came though. Someone on Warseer posted it.

Chaplain Dionitas
26-03-2008, 13:28
The horror, the horror!


Thanks Col.Kurtz

Signed,

Errand Boy

AdmiralDick
27-03-2008, 14:24
Presumably, the pict-feed cuts out though. ;)

whilst i have know doubt that you already know this, its worth pointing out for the sake of wholeness. its actually one of very few totally clear cut events in the 40k universe. Night Haunter was killed by a Callidus Assassin (in full view of other people i believe). if i remember rightly she slit his throat.

the point being that he seemingly let her do it. whether is was remorse at what he had done (or become) is not clear, but there was know way it could have been a surprise and he could have easily defended himself and even killed her if he had actually tried.

(yet another non-chaotic Chaos Primarch).

Drachenfell
27-03-2008, 14:55
I don't remember Reading that part. Where abouts was that printed? I was underthe impression that all the primarches deaths/dissapearances were ambiguous in case GW wished for them to return.

Firaxin
27-03-2008, 15:18
uh... wasn't Alpharius the one who said the 'i've known of you since your craft first entered the eastern fringe' speech, where he lets the assassin kill him because it is proof/vindication of everything alpharius strived for or something like that?

AdmiralDick
27-03-2008, 15:38
@ Drachenfell: sorry, i'm at work right now, i'll find a reference for it ASAP

@ Firaxin: not that i'm aware of. Alpharius has been fairly sparcely mentioned up until the AI article, in comparison to some of the other Primarchs. and i believe that whole 'oh they were good guys all along' stuff is pretty much confined to Legion.

chris.seraphim
27-03-2008, 15:47
Im not going to get into the various Legion-spawned arguments.

The 18 known primarchs fit into clear categroes...

1- Dead (definately, shuffled off the mortal coil, they are late Primarchs)
Horus, Sanguinius, Ferrus Mannus

2- Presumed dead at Imperial hands
Night Haunter (Konrad Curze), Alpharius (although the evidence for his is sketchy, and Legion throws it into further dispute)

3- Missing (possibly dead, but it is not stated)
Leman Russ, Rogal Dorn, Jaghatai Khan, Corax, Vulkan, Lion El'Jonson - Jonson is in face in stasis within the Rock, as is Luthor, but this is oinly known to the Watchers in the Dark)

4- In stasis
Roboute Guilliman ('killed' by Fulgrim, but kept in stasis on Macragge on the point of death, rumoured to be healing...)

5- Ascended to level of Daemon Prince, effectively Immortal
Angron, Magnus, Perturabo, Mortarion, Lorgar, Fulgrim (-spoiler- as of the Fulgrim book, Fulgrim is posessed, and fully aware and repentant, although his body is occupied and controlled my a Slaaneshi daemon)

Hope that helps clear things up. Some folk like the missing Primarchs to be considered dead, saying things like 'they couldnt possibly have survived..' and other such toss, whereas I prefer the idea that they are out there, waiting for the right time to come back.

AdmiralDick
27-03-2008, 16:48
hmm. having got home and re-read the 2nd Ed codex and the IA article looks like i may have made some of that up.

its now not 100% certain that Night Haunter is dead; but only because it doesn't explicitly mention it. they talk about him having been killed, it did seem to fit with his ideal (although that's not a given because of the selfish nature of Chaos) and its not like his assassin didn't make it home but she didn't have conclusive evidence like his severed head and IA suggests there were no witnesses.

also the whole thing about him having been remorseful appears to have been baloney, although i distinctly remember reading about it somewhere, so now i'm really confused.

@ Fixarin: the whole "Your presence does not surprise me Assassin" speech was Night Haunter's and not Alpharius'. although i'm not quite sure what he thought his death would justify. he was killed to prevent him or his legion from committing any more killings under the false pretence of justice, where as he just liked killing people so would kill people with the minimal reason. not quite the same thing.

Mechanicus
27-03-2008, 17:23
Chris - just a few points. In Lord of the Night, we see, via a flashback, Night Haunter's head sliced off, so I think he's dead. :D Dorn is definitively dead; in the geneseed section of the IA, it says "Considering the circumstances of Dorn's eventual death..." My last point is that the Imperium probably doesn't know that Ferrus is dead. The IA's are written from an Imperial viewpoint, and that considers him missing in action. :)

As to the Primarchs surviving, I'm a fan of the idea that the primarchs' souls are still in the warp, and given an appropriate host body, they could be brought back (hence Russ' 'For the wolftime' speech, and Ferrus' vision dictated to the Iron Hands).

Crispian25
27-03-2008, 17:24
A good deal of the 'death' of Night Haunter takes place in Lord of Night, along with references to his crown, though I remember reading it somewhere else as well.

Thoth62
27-03-2008, 17:29
If we are going to be taking Black Library literature as canon, then look no further than the book 'Lord of the Night' for proof of Night Haunter's demise. The description of the event goes past that of where the pict feed cuts out, and even goes so far as to say that all of the legions company commanders were also present to witness it.

Gussy
27-03-2008, 18:08
5- Ascended to level of Daemon Prince, effectively Immortal
Angron, Magnus, Perturabo, Mortarion, Lorgar, Fulgrim (-spoiler- as of the Fulgrim book, Fulgrim is posessed, and fully aware and repentant, although his body is occupied and controlled my a Slaaneshi daemon)


So what does this mean? Are they still themselves or not? Magnus is still Magnus as revealed in the Space Wolves books. However, the others who "ascended" have not been heard. Are they considered..."gone" as in died and are comparable to dead "saints"?

Thoth62
27-03-2008, 19:16
I would say that to have ascended to the status of a Daemon Prince, said individuals would still retain their own conciousness. Think of it this way. They have received enough gifts from their patron deities that they can be classed as daemonic, but, unlike Fulgrim, they have not been possessed by a seperate daemonic entity. They are a sentient daemonic entity unto themselves, but they are still the same individual personality that they were prior to having ascended to daemonhood.

Did that make sense?

Imperialis_Dominatus
27-03-2008, 20:48
uh... wasn't Alpharius the one who said the 'i've known of you since your craft first entered the eastern fringe' speech, where he lets the assassin kill him because it is proof/vindication of everything alpharius strived for or something like that?

Definitely Night Haunter's speech.


If we are going to be taking Black Library literature as canon, then look no further than the book 'Lord of the Night' for proof of Night Haunter's demise. The description of the event goes past that of where the pict feed cuts out, and even goes so far as to say that all of the legions company commanders were also present to witness it.

Well, it is canon, but the real question is, do we take it as undiluted truth or 'hearsay, shadowy rumor, outright b.s., etc.'? :p

And if we take BL as canon... that means Goto too. *shudder*


So what does this mean? Are they still themselves or not? Magnus is still Magnus as revealed in the Space Wolves books. However, the others who "ascended" have not been heard. Are they considered..."gone" as in died and are comparable to dead "saints"?

They're Daemon Princes, not possessed (except Fulgrim). They still have personalities, and those personalities would be their own, albeit with added god-like powers and consciousness.

chaoshopeful
27-03-2008, 21:12
And Codex:CSM says that all were found/all led there legions on the great crusade


The only source I know that even mentions the 2nd and 11th legions is in the short story The Lightning Tower. It doesn't say anything about the primarchs, just that separate tragedies befell them a long time before the Heresy.

brettz123
27-03-2008, 21:58
Some folk like the missing Primarchs to be considered dead, saying things like 'they couldnt possibly have survived..' and other such toss, whereas I prefer the idea that they are out there, waiting for the right time to come back.

Well if Abaddon can still be alive I would think a primarch could too :D

Skirnak
28-03-2008, 00:58
And Codex:CSM says that all were found/all led there legions on the great crusade

I'm not sure whether you're trying to contradict me or not. Sorry, I'm quite worn out.

chaoshopeful
28-03-2008, 03:19
More like adding to you. The codex is another reference to the two missing legions


I'm not sure whether you're trying to contradict me or not. Sorry, I'm quite worn out.

BrainFireBob
28-03-2008, 06:30
Imperial_Dominatus:

I had a long, humorous post which Warseer ate. Therefore I shall restrict myself to: It's the Alpha Legion Index Astartes.

To the OP:

Angron has led two invasions out of the Eye, Magnus one. Angron led the Reign of Fire at the head of fifty thousand berzerkers, and led the First War on Armageddon. Magnus attacked the Fang, in retribution for Prospero, on Fenris.

Imperialis_Dominatus
28-03-2008, 18:05
What about the AL IA? I'm not sure if I have that one. :confused:

Sorry about your post. :cries: It will be missed.

Im not saying1
28-03-2008, 22:34
ATTENTION: LEGION SPOILERS IN THIS QUOTE!!!


This is the problem with the new book Legion its opened up allot of fluff problems, the Alpha Legion was the only legion that their Primarch was a twin, so instead of founding an extra legion the Emperor put both of them in charge of the Alpha Legion. And yes in some ways he was a double for Alpharius, they both acted as the Primarch on separate occasions depending on combat actions and who they were dealing with. This is why the Alpha Legions badge is a Hydra. 'Cut off the head and two more shall take its place.'


Thanks man, thanks a lot. Next time write SPOILER at the top before blundering on and telling a lot of us what we dont want to hear yet. Even when you were reminded you still didnt put one up.


Ok now for my contribution:

Horus- Dead, His soul was totally obliterated by A psychic assault from the Emporer in thier duel on Horus' battle Barge, so he cant come back through the warp.
It is a little bit unclear as to what Horus used in battle. Early art shows him weilding 2 lightning claws, though they dont even have the attached combi-bolter to either one of them. The more recent artwork shows him weilding a large mace and his lightning claw in a duel against the Emporer. Also his black suit of of terminator armour was personally crafted for him on Mars by Master Adept Urtzi Malevolus not long before the heresy errupted, Maelvolus himself said:
"It is the zenith of my career, I shall not craft anything so perfect ever again"
The Master Adept was aware that Horus had turned Traitor.

Lion El'Jonson - Alive, He was wounded in a duel with his chaos powered, ex second in command, Luthor on his legion's homeworld Caliban.
I dont know much about what the equipment he used in battle.

Ferrus Mannus - Dead, Killed in a duel with the traitorous Emporer's Children primarch Fulgrim on Istvaan IV.
He weilded the 'Forgebreaker', a Hammer crafted by Fulgrim and given to him as a symbol of thier friendship. However, in his duel with Fulgrim he used the 'Fireblade', Fulgrim's primary weapon before he found the Laeren daemonblade.


Fulgrim - Alive, He is not in control of his actions, *Possible Fulgrim spoilers* he was possessed by the daemon originally bound to the Laeren daemonblade he found in the Laeren temple *end possible spoilers*, and remains aware of everything that goes on around him. His physical body has become one of a many limbed daemon prince's.
Im dont think he even uses the fireblade anymore, as it is an imperial weapon, though he could have corrupted it's designs if he took it from Ferrus Manus's body. It is unkown (or at least to me) if his legion is aware that it is not he that leads them. As the Laeren daemonblade no longer has a daemon bound to it, it wouldnt make sense for Fulgrim to be using it anymore.
The only weapon that he is definetely using is the anathame. The weapon that wounded Horus and 'poisened' him to point that he was unable to recover witthout the Lodge priests' healing powers.

Leman Russ - Dissapeared, Was last seen heading for the Eye of Terror. There are different versions of why he did it. 2 I know are: He went in search of the seed of a special tree (that I cant remember the name of) that is beleived to be able to heal the Emporer.
Another is that he just went off to fight chaos. It is said that he will return for the 'Wolftime' or the final battle between the forces of light and darkness.
His weapon of choice has already been mentioned.

Rogal Dorn - Disapeared, probably dead. Fighting on a chaos ship, probsbly dead as his hand was found. Though another version of it says that his remains are incased in amber and are currently in the possession of the Imperial Fists Astartes chapter.
Other than this I dont know anything about him, artwork shows him weilding a power sword.

Roboute Gulliman - Alive, He is being preserved on the brink of death in stasis in a shrine on Macragge, the Ultramarines homeworld. His throat was slit in a duel with the daemonically possessed Fulgrim who was weilding the anathame. His wounds are rumoured to be healing even though this is technically impossible inside a stasis feild.
Other than this I dont know much else about what he used in battle, though artwork shows him weilding a power broadsword.

Jaghati Khan - Dissapeared into the webway persuing dark eldar 70 years after the heresy, for a reason I cant remember. The dark eldar have said the have a mighty Imperial warrior in thier custody, they might be referring to him. I dont know if this fluff is cannon or not though.
Artword shows him weilding a power scimitar.

Sanguinius - Dead, killed by the Warmaster Horus in a duel on his battle barge shortly before Horus's duel with the Emporer.
Artwork shows him weilding a sword.

Mortarion - Alive, ascended to daemonhood and is ruling over a daemonworld in the Eye of Terror.
He used a sythe or manreaper to great effect.

Perturabo - Alive, ascended to daemonhood and is ruling over the daemonworld Medrenguard in the Eye of Terror.
Artwork shows him weilding a hammer.

Lorgar- Alive, Ascended in to Daemonhood and is ruling over a daemonworld in the Eye of Terror.
Artwork of him ascended to Daemonhood shows him weilding a giant sword.

Angron- Alive, Ascended in to Daemonhood the 'Bat winged Lord' and is ruling over a daemonworld in the Eye of Terror, though his legion is broken (into warbands, his own being the largest). He was banished in the first of of Armageddon by a force of 100 Grey Knight terminators for 100 years and a day. It is presumable that he is out now. He was the last Chaos primarch to take part in a proper battle.
He used a massive chainglaive pre-heresy I think, but i dont know what he used now.

Corax - Disappeared, last seen heading to the Eye of Terror with the word: "Nevermore" He couldnt forgive himself for tampering with his legion's geneseed. The Raven guard beleive he will return one day.
I cant remember what he used in battle, look in the book "Fulgrim". It will tell you.

Vulkan - Disapeared 1000 year after the heresy.
I cant remember what he used in battle, look in the book "Fulgrim". It will tell you.

Night Haunter - Dead, he let himself be assassinated by the Callidus assassin M'shen. He was beside himself with guilt about something I cant remember.
I dont know what he used in battle.

Alpharius - Dead, killed in a duel with Guilliman. *Legion Spoilers* Though I havnt read the book, appartently he had a twin. So it is questionable whether the Alpha Legion are still led by thier primarch or not.
I dont know what he used in battle.

Magnus the Red - Alive, ruling over a daemonworld in the eye of terror. His physical body was shattered in a duel with Leman Russ on Prospero. However, he was reborn or something, I cant remember exactly what happened it may have had something to do with the Rubric of Ahriman.
I dont know what he used in battle, though artwork shows him weilding an axe.

Lord Zso Sahaal
29-03-2008, 00:27
look mate i can understand your point but this thread is about the background to warhammer 40000 and is asking where the primarchs are so why are you complaining about me posting a reply that has the content which this thread is asking for?
Lord Sahaal

Lord Zso Sahaal
29-03-2008, 00:35
Fulgrim - Alive, He is not in control of his actions, *Possible Fulgrim spoilers* he was possessed by the daemon originally bound to the Laeren daemonblade he found in the Laeren temple *end possible spoilers*, and remains aware of everything that goes on around him. His physical body has become one of a many limbed daemon prince's.
Im dont think he even uses the fireblade anymore, as it is an imperial weapon, though he could have corrupted it's designs if he took it from Ferrus Manus's body. It is unkown (or at least to me) if his legion is aware that it is not he that leads them. As the Laeren daemonblade no longer has a daemon bound to it, it wouldnt make sense for Fulgrim to be using it anymore.
The only weapon that he is definetely using is the anathame. The weapon that wounded Horus and 'poisened' him to point that he was unable to recover witthout the Lodge priests' healing powers.


Ok if this keeps you happy
FULGRIM SPLOILERS
the sword fireblade was destroyed by ferrus manus in the battle between fulgrim and ferrus if i remember correctly, because of his mands i cant remember now what they were called if anybody knows please correct me, he was able to destroy the blade during the fight. so the blade was no more. if this is wrong again please correct as it is a while sinse i last read fulgrim.

different13
29-03-2008, 08:05
I'm not saying1, Night Haunter wasn't racked by guilt. He was vindicated in death. Why be guilty, when his death merely proves he was right all along?

Magnus has nothing to do with the Rubric - psykers were the only ones to escape the Rubric, so him now being a dusty husk would make no sense whatsoever, regardless of what happened to his body - as a daemon, he should be able to possess a host body anyway.

Mortarion also had "the lantern", which seems to be some kind of uber-las/plasma/melta pistol.

Moostikal The Confused
29-03-2008, 08:26
Imnotsaying1 seems to have it down pretty much but i'll say that alpharius was rumoured to be killed by papa smurf.

Go to stories an art, lastie knows whats happenin to the primarchs. Doesn't make a great deal of sense but its funny tho.

AdmiralDick
29-03-2008, 08:32
Ha! i'm not the only one who was given the impression that NH was racked with guilt and let himself be killed. was anyone else under this impression? can anyne remember reading it somewhere or being told it?

Skirnak
29-03-2008, 10:59
Ha! i'm not the only one who was given the impression that NH was racked with guilt and let himself be killed. was anyone else under this impression? can anyne remember reading it somewhere or being told it?

I seem to recall that being the case, although I can't remember the source.

DantesInferno
29-03-2008, 11:42
I'm not saying1, Night Haunter wasn't racked by guilt. He was vindicated in death. Why be guilty, when his death merely proves he was right all along?

It's a bit more complicated than that: there's a hint of ambivalence in Night Haunter's last words.
I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your false Emperor now seeks to punish me.
Strikes me as rather odd phrasing for someone who's completely assured of the rightness of their actions.


Ha! i'm not the only one who was given the impression that NH was racked with guilt and let himself be killed. was anyone else under this impression? can anyne remember reading it somewhere or being told it?


I seem to recall that being the case, although I can't remember the source.

Night Haunter's last words can be found conveniently located in my signature. They've been there ever since I was traumatised by one too many "Night Haunter is still alive" topics back on Portent...

Im not saying1
29-03-2008, 13:26
I'm not saying1, Night Haunter wasn't racked by guilt. He was vindicated in death. Why be guilty, when his death merely proves he was right all along?

Magnus has nothing to do with the Rubric - psykers were the only ones to escape the Rubric, so him now being a dusty husk would make no sense whatsoever, regardless of what happened to his body - as a daemon, he should be able to possess a host body anyway.

Mortarion also had "the lantern", which seems to be some kind of uber-las/plasma/melta pistol.


Yeh, that was it about Night Haunter - couldnt quite remember, my memory is abit like a seive (if thats how you spell it). Thanks. :)

I knew I was forgetting something about the Rubric. Thanks for that also.

I've never heard of this 'lantern' before. Does "Flight of the Eisenstein" mention it? :eyebrows:

Lord Zso Sahaal, I dont think you understand. People dont want to know what happens in the book until they read it. It still helps to warn people if there are spoilers in your post. A lot of people still havnt read the book yet, but may still want to find out about the primarchs.
Sorry if I seemed pissed off though, cause i feel a like an *******. I over-reacted a bit.:(

Lord Zso Sahaal
29-03-2008, 13:59
ok fair enough and the words of the night haunter are in the book Lord of the Night by Simon Spurrier, really good book and gives a good background into what happened to the Night Lords just after the Heresy, would recommend it if you liked reading stories of 40000

Imperialis_Dominatus
29-03-2008, 20:24
Ha! i'm not the only one who was given the impression that NH was racked with guilt and let himself be killed. was anyone else under this impression? can anyne remember reading it somewhere or being told it?

Hmm. Racked by guilt? I've never came across that. And I just read Lord of the Night. Speaking of which:


ok fair enough and the words of the night haunter are in the book Lord of the Night by Simon Spurrier, really good book and gives a good background into what happened to the Night Lords just after the Heresy, would recommend it if you liked reading stories of 40000

I fully support this endorsement. Awesome book.

Valo
29-03-2008, 22:28
Corax-Disappeared into the warp after feeling guilty (Manipulating the gene-seed of his legion)


What was he doing to the geneseed?I somehow managed to miss that part.

different13
30-03-2008, 00:28
Basically, he found 'ancient texts' used by techpriests (biologis magi?) to create the original warriors for the Emperor (possibly the Thunder warriors) - regardless, the process was a lot faster than that of creating a 'normal' space marine.

Sadly, it corrupted the gene-seed and led to hideous monsters.
Essentially Corax tried to speed up the process of creating marines, to faster rebuild his legion. And it didn't work very well.

I'm not saying1 - pretty sure the Lantern was mentioned very brielfy there. You can also see it in the famous Blanche sketch, several of the Sabretooth pictures, and the following description from the Lexicanum (which uses FotE as its' source):

[warning - description of a primarch appearance ahead. I don't consider it a spoiler, but I'm sure someone will complain....)

During the height of his powers as a servant of the Emperor, Mortarion is described as having an ashen, hairless face. He is extremely tall and thin and wears a heavy collar around his throat which constantly emits whisps of poisonous air. He wears a grey cloak over a full suit of uniquely crafted power armour coated with brass and bare steel. He carries the Lantern at his side - a huge hand-crafted energy pistol of a unique Shenlongi design. He also wears a string of globe-shaped brass censers which contain poisonous gases from his homeworld. His second main weapon is a battle scythe known as a manreaper. He is accompanied at all time by two marines known as the Deathshroud. These are his personal bodyguard. They are marines who are listed as killed in action and then made to wear a mask for the rest of their lives so that only Mortarion may know their true identity. They both carry manreapers, wear highly ornate armour and may never be more than 49 paces away from their master.



Anyway, once again - yes, what happened to Night Haunter is more complicated than what I said, but I certainly found no indication that he was wracked by guilt. He let the assassin kill him because it proved him right, not because he felt he had been wrong. Again, this is overly simplistic, but I think that's the jist of what LotN says.

DantesInferno
30-03-2008, 01:01
Anyway, once again - yes, what happened to Night Haunter is more complicated than what I said, but I certainly found no indication that he was wracked by guilt. He let the assassin kill him because it proved him right, not because he felt he had been wrong. Again, this is overly simplistic, but I think that's the jist of what LotN says.

Just look at his last words:

"Your presence does not surprise me, Assassin. I have known of you ever since your craft entered the Eastern Fringes. Why did I not have you killed? Because your mission and the act you are about to commit proves the truth of all I have ever said or done. I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your false Emperor now seeks to punish me. Death is nothing compared to vindication."

I think it's clear that there are elements of both guilt and vindication. Is this contradictory? You bet.

But as food for thought, remember that there are two personas involved: Konrad Curze and Night Haunter.

Imperialis_Dominatus
30-03-2008, 01:54
All I really got out of that quote was the vindication part. Perhaps I'm reading it in the wrong tone, but to be honest I don't see guilt there.

Basically:


Your presence does not surprise me, Assassin. I have known of you ever since your craft entered the Eastern Fringes. Why did I not have you killed?

The buildup to the revelation.


Because your mission and the act you are about to commit proves the truth of all I have ever said or done. I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your false Emperor now seeks to punish me.

Basically, stating that the Emperor's actions mirror his own- that despite being decried himself for his actions, they are actions that must be done.


Death is nothing compared to vindication.

And the final punchline. No remorse or guilt, just a last joke followed by the (he hopes) peace of the grave.

DantesInferno
30-03-2008, 04:08
All I really got out of that quote was the vindication part. Perhaps I'm reading it in the wrong tone, but to be honest I don't see guilt there.

It's this bit:

I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your false Emperor now seeks to punish me.

So as he sees it, Night Haunter punishing those who had wronged is precisely the same as the Emperor punishing Night Haunter.

So Night Haunter is just like the people he punished, "those who had wronged". If you look at both sides of the comparison, Night Haunter is at the same time the punisher of the wicked and one of the wicked himself.

Imperialis_Dominatus
30-03-2008, 06:36
Hmm. Alright, now that makes some sense, I guess. I always thought the comparison was more to emphasize the actions of the Emperor that vindicated him, and that despite the fact that the Emperor (or his servants) believed they were punishing a wrongdoer (just as he had always believed himself to be doing), they were still in the wrong. Their motivations and actions might have been the same as Kurze's (to punish the unjust), and that is what vindicated him, but I never read it as him actually considering himself one of those criminals.

It seems to me that we are on the same page, just at a different paragraph (to stretch the metaphor).

different13
30-03-2008, 10:18
Yes, I see now what DantesInferno is saying. I don't agree, but I see where you're coming from, and why. It's certainly not an unreasonable view to take.

There could be elements of guilt derived from his legion, rather than his actions, as well. He left his world, and it went back to how it used to be. His legion came to consist almost entirely of criminals (I have a personal theory that the Talonmaster was a Terran marine, or perhaps a vigilante like Night Haunter - not because I want him to be good, simply because I think it fits his character)

edit: that is to say, Curze might feel he'd failed in letting his legion progress (regress?) to that point. Night Haunter could have been hiding this information from him, leading Curze to believe he was perfectly right. I feel I'm not saying what I'm meaning to say here, so I'll just leave it at that.

DantesInferno
30-03-2008, 10:43
Hmm. Alright, now that makes some sense, I guess. I always thought the comparison was more to emphasize the actions of the Emperor that vindicated him, and that despite the fact that the Emperor (or his servants) believed they were punishing a wrongdoer (just as he had always believed himself to be doing), they were still in the wrong. Their motivations and actions might have been the same as Kurze's (to punish the unjust), and that is what vindicated him, but I never read it as him actually considering himself one of those criminals.

It seems to me that we are on the same page, just at a different paragraph (to stretch the metaphor).

Fair enough. For what it's worth, the IA article suggests that Konrad Curze deliberately assumed the burden of evil upon himself, believing that he was strong enough to use it for noble purposes. Indeed, the article indicates that this act and the creation of the Night Haunter persona was a form of martyrdom.

By the time of the Heresy, however, it's clear that Curze's metaphoric gamble had failed. The noble purposes for which the Night Lords had nominally been committing their atrocities had long been forgotten. Instead, the Legion was fighting solely for the purpose of the infliction of maximal fear, suffering and death. Originally, their principles were clear: terror and slaughter were to be used strictly as means; tools for the achievement of some greater good. These convictions had evidently been slowly eroded by the Heresy and the Legion's campaign from Tsagualsa, by which point the Legion was inflicting death and fear purely for their own sake.

This erosion of the Legion's principles was at least partially caused by the recruitment from Nostramo, causing the influx of large numbers of criminals and psychopaths into the Legion. The way that the composition of the Night Lords Legion changes during the Great Crusade mirrors the Primarch's internal conflict: with the two parts of the Legion representing the psychological divide within the Primarch himself. The voices of the Primarch's better angels are shouted down by the demons in his mind, leading to a disintegrating spiral of violence.

Yet the IA suggests that there was a change towards the end: "[The Night Lords] continued to raid the Imperium, all military strategy and carefully planned campaigns of terror discarded in favour of wanton murder and destruction. The hand of Night Haunter was still evident in the acts of his Legion, but it is obvious from field recordings of the time that the battle orders of the Primarch had changed. Where they were originally cold and calculating, the Night Lords now struck against overwhelming odds, their tactics eventually betraying a self-destructive desperation."

At least one possible explanation for the sudden shift towards self-destruction would be for the Curze-persona to have remerged, and at least on some level recognise that he and his Legion had become the epitome of the evil which he had loathed with every fibre of his being, and had made the ultimate sacrifice in an attempt to destroy.

In short, it's certainly not impossible that Curze/Night Haunter allowed himself to be assassinated for two different (and probably mutually exclusive!) reasons:
i) He objected to the Emperor's pretensions of grandeur, legitimacy and moral superiority whilst actually holding (and endorsing) the same views as Curze/Night Haunter himself. This was why Curze/Night Haunter viewed the Emperor dispatching assassins to kill him as vindication: it was an explicit rejection of the notions of justice the Emperor had apparently always espoused. Curze/Night Haunter had been right all along.
ii) He realised that he had become the very monster he had been fighting to protect people from; that his principled campaign had devolved into the purest form of evil; and that he deserved to be punished, just as he had devoted his life to punishing the guilty.


(I have a personal theory that the Talonmaster was a Terran marine, or perhaps a vigilante like Night Haunter - not because I want him to be good, simply because I think it fits his character)

That would certainly make sense.

different13
30-03-2008, 11:02
Do we have rep on this forum?
Brilliant post.

I'd forgotten about those hints in the IA article, I'm inclined to agree with you now..

Imperialis_Dominatus
30-03-2008, 11:06
Like I said, sounds like we're on very similar wavelengths. Good discussion though. Kurze is definitely an interesting Primarch. I wish the others were as well fleshed out... though I haven't gotten far into the HH series.

Unfortunately, no, we don't have a rep system. I'm sure it's been brought up before; it works awesomely on LO and I admit that there have been dozens of times that I've wanted to give someone rep but failed to find the star icon here. :(

Warsurge
24-06-2009, 15:50
Their Primarch, Ferrus Manus, is seen as a strong and unwavering warrior-god, the saviour of his people, who will return one day to lead all of Humanity from the darkness that besets it from all sides and from within.

Ok so how does that work out? It totally conflicts with Fulgrim chopping his head off...unless there is something else we don't know.

Soul placed in a machine, resurrected by the Void Dragon, it wasn't really Ferrus but a clone of him? What do you think?

Urath
24-06-2009, 16:01
Ok so how does that work out? It totally conflicts with Fulgrim chopping his head off...unless there is something else we don't know.

Soul placed in a machine, resurrected by the Void Dragon, it wasn't really Ferrus but a clone of him? What do you think?

Seeing as literally none of he Iron Hands that landed on Isstvan V survived, it's possible they don't know what happened to Manus. Even if some survived, it's doubtful they'd have witnessed his death.

It's a legend created from a lack of information and a refusal to believe their Primarch has perished.

Chapter Master Leonidas
24-06-2009, 17:13
Again the last known thing about Corax was that he left saying "Nevermore"

wtf, please tell me that's a joke

blindingdark
24-06-2009, 17:34
Leman Russ left the chapter to fight chaos in the eye of terror.

i believe that it is leman russ that now guards the black library of chaos.

he stated that he would return for the final battle, the wolftime, but i believe that he was actually refering to the Rhana Dandra of the eldar.

weather he was seeking the black library for some reason (perhaps a way to defeat chaos or restore the emperor) or simply ended up there i am not sure, but the one person who has seen the guardian went mad from the experience,
and this is an inquisitor, hardened against the horrors of chaos. i would imagine seeing leman russ the primarch in the eldar black library may have this effect no ?

anyways, thats my take on leman russ.;)

Firaxin
24-06-2009, 17:41
he stated that he would return for the final battle, the wolftime, but i believe that he was actually refering to the Rhana Dandra of the eldar.
Why do they have to be different?

blindingdark
24-06-2009, 18:07
Why do they have to be different?

not sure what you mean ? i was saying they are the same thing:confused:

Firaxin
24-06-2009, 18:51
The Wolftime is the same as the Rhana Dandra. Russ doesn't have to be referring to the Rhana Dandra at all, it still means the same thing.

blindingdark
24-06-2009, 19:29
The Wolftime is the same as the Rhana Dandra. Russ doesn't have to be referring to the Rhana Dandra at all, it still means the same thing.

I think I know what you mean now;)

whenever I have read anything concerning the rhana dandra, it has always refered to the final battle of the eldar themselves, not other races.
to my knowledge, Russ is the only other to have ever stated anything regarding a final battle, presumably refering to his wolves (hence wolftime).

I find it more than a coincidence that he stated such a thing and went straight into the eye of terror, never to be seen again.

Now, we know he went off to fight chaos, and the greatest source of knowledge regarding chaos is the black library. Within it is also stored the tale of the rhana dandra (in a book i believe). It would not be a great strectch to assume he would seek such knowledge in order to defeat chaos.

Perhaps...just perhaps, he had already been to the Black library, Before he left his legion. This would explain...

A) His knowledge of the final battle.
B) His desire to leave the legion
C) The Guardian that sent a seasoned inquisitor mad

I like to think that the eldar manipulated him (slightly), by showing him the rhana dandra as the end of his legion. because of this, he sought the library to protect the imperium, and to defeat chaos. the eldar got the best deal, a gaurdian like no other for there most prized knowledge.

In response to your post, no other has ever stated anything about a final battle and i do not bevieve the eldar have refered to other races either with regards to the rhana dandra, But by all means educate me:)

EDIT: Hopefully, prospero burns will see Russ and the eldar in coversation. we will see.

Serebrate
24-06-2009, 19:45
A lot of people in this thread are spouting off with opinion or what they collect. While this is all well and good, don't tout it as canon or say stuff like "Alpharius is dead...I think, and I think he had a brother too....".

Here's the skinny:

With Alpha Legion, there are either two or one Primarchs - depending how you view it. It says they are two souls in one body, so depending on your definition of a person it could be one or two, but both are capable of acting independently. Alpharius just tended to be the public face. While it was presummed Guilliman killed Alpharius in a surprise attack, given the extremly liquid, secret, and deceptive nature of the Alpha Legion it's highly unlikely this occured. The High Lords of Terror declared the Alpha Legion destroyed three times, only to have them return three times. They are inactive compared to the other legions. It's also in question whether they are really with Chaos. While they did fight with Horus, a meeting with an alien race explaining the future of humanity apparently had a deep impact on Alpharius. In essense, anything known about the Alpha Legion is prone to being untrue or purposely misleading. The chapters secrets have never left the chapter.

On the Night Haunter issue, it's also vauge whether he lived or died. The pict feed cut out and the assassin was never heard from again. I believe this is a purposely vauge segment of the book. While Konrad may have had a moment of rue, Nighthaunter might've taken over the next and slain the assassin.

Also, there's a belief that Dorn is still alive and is on Terra tending to the Golden Throne. If I'm recalling correctly, only his right hand and parts of his armor were ever recovered aboard a Chaos warship. But this can be seen as wishful thinking.

The problem with some Black Library titles is that some authors will make up new things or revision old things. IA is more feature-esque, rather than providing the be-all-end-all description than canon so just beware.

Either way, it doesn't matter. GW tends to retcon stuff each edition anyway.

Just like the squ-

Gdolkin
25-06-2009, 01:10
Not sure how much time or trust Leman Russ would have for Eldar.. bit of a culture clash there.

Lord-Caerolion
25-06-2009, 03:37
Nope Serebrate, Lord of the Night is incredibly clear on the death of Night Haunter. He is most definitely dead. What with the whole decapitation thing and all. Kinda hard to survive that, even if you're a Primarch.

MadDoc
25-06-2009, 04:36
A lot of people in this thread are spouting off with opinion or what they collect. While this is all well and good, don't tout it as canon or say stuff like "Alpharius is dead...I think, and I think he had a brother too....".

Oh dear, that really doesn't bode well...


Here's the skinny:

With Alpha Legion, there are either two or one Primarchs - depending how you view it. It says they are two souls in one body, so depending on your definition of a person it could be one or two, but both are capable of acting independently.

I'm going to guess you meant to say one soul in two bodies there.

Otherwise you'd be presenting a falsehood as fact. :p


Alpharius just tended to be the public face. While it was presummed Guilliman killed Alpharius in a surprise attack,

The thing is, its entirely possible Guilliman surprised Alpharius, his attack was completely against his standard doctrines, it was the last thing Alpharius would have expected from a starch **** like Guilliman.

That doesn't make it true, its just as likely false. Having said that, the discrediting of the Inquisitor responsible for writing the missive on the Alpha Legion featured in the IA article could just as equally be an Alpha Legion plot.

All of which is simply presenting alternative opinions...


given the extremly liquid, secret, and deceptive nature of the Alpha Legion it's highly unlikely this occured.

Is that fact or opinion?


The High Lords of Terror declared the Alpha Legion destroyed three times, only to have them return three times. They are inactive compared to the other legions. It's also in question whether they are really with Chaos. While they did fight with Horus, a meeting with an alien race explaining the future of humanity apparently had a deep impact on Alpharius. In essense, anything known about the Alpha Legion is prone to being untrue or purposely misleading. The chapters secrets have never left the chapter.

I would tend to exclude most of the information we find in Legion from that though.


On the Night Haunter issue, it's also vauge whether he lived or died. The pict feed cut out and the assassin was never heard from again. I believe this is a purposely vauge segment of the book.

I take it by that, that you're referring to the piece featured in various Chaos Codexes?


While Konrad may have had a moment of rue, Nighthaunter might've taken over the next and slain the assassin.

Except that, as Lord-Caerolion has already mentioned, in Lord of the Night its made very clear that Night Haunter is quite dead.


Also, there's a belief that Dorn is still alive and is on Terra tending to the Golden Throne.

Some fans believe that Dorn is on Terra tending to the Golden Throne, there is absolutely nothing in the background to suggest this.


If I'm recalling correctly, only his right hand and parts of his armor were ever recovered aboard a Chaos warship. But this can be seen as wishful thinking.

Wishful thinking at best... its well and truly in the realms of fanon.


The problem with some Black Library titles is that some authors will make up new things or revision old things. IA is more feature-esque, rather than providing the be-all-end-all description than canon so just beware.

Either way, it doesn't matter. GW tends to retcon stuff each edition anyway.

Just like the squ-

For good or ill, the Universe is GW's to do with as they see fit. For the most part they respect the core tenents of their established background, with a few notable exceptions. Unfortunately there is little we can do about that. For the most part... :angel:

NightrawenII
25-06-2009, 14:37
Leman Russ left the chapter to fight chaos in the eye of terror.

i believe that it is leman russ that now guards the black library of chaos.

he stated that he would return for the final battle, the wolftime, but i believe that he was actually refering to the Rhana Dandra of the eldar.

weather he was seeking the black library for some reason (perhaps a way to defeat chaos or restore the emperor) or simply ended up there i am not sure, but the one person who has seen the guardian went mad from the experience,
and this is an inquisitor, hardened against the horrors of chaos. i would imagine seeing leman russ the primarch in the eldar black library may have this effect no ?

anyways, thats my take on leman russ.;)

Well, some sources says the Guardian is bird-like and we have another man with bird complex and lost in EoT.;)

pookie
25-06-2009, 16:18
Leman Russ left the chapter to fight chaos in the eye of terror.

i believe that it is leman russ that now guards the black library of chaos.

he stated that he would return for the final battle, the wolftime, but i believe that he was actually refering to the Rhana Dandra of the eldar.

weather he was seeking the black library for some reason (perhaps a way to defeat chaos or restore the emperor) or simply ended up there i am not sure, but the one person who has seen the guardian went mad from the experience,
and this is an inquisitor, hardened against the horrors of chaos. i would imagine seeing leman russ the primarch in the eldar black library may have this effect no ?

anyways, thats my take on leman russ.;)

well you do realise the wolftime and Rhana Dhandra is the same thing? the Orks also have one, its called the Ragnork iirc

HereticLosMorte
25-06-2009, 19:04
fyi,
the night haunter story was also detailed in the old assassins codex. (3rd ed.?)
didn't see anyone mentioning it earlier.