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BlackViper
25-03-2008, 16:24
Ok, I've been collecting dwarfs for many, many years now. Until recently re-starting gaming I'd never seen the point of troll slayers. The slayer skill never struck me as being useful in a game where most high-toughness creatures can avoid slow dwarfs - that is until recently. I realised the first time that I used them, that their beauty was in their unbreakable-ness, especially now that they're cheaper in the new army book (don't quote me on that - I don't have either to hand).

But... That's not what this question is about. Who out there bothers paying for the giantslayer upgrade? You get the increased WS and S that would go with being a longbeard, Hammerer or Ironbreaker... and you get an extra attack... But is this really worth an extra 15 points? You would never field a whole unit of these fellas would you?

Do people use a whole unit? A mixed unit? A single leader? Does anyone recon Giantslayers are worth the points? Have I missed the point?

Necromancer2
25-03-2008, 16:28
You would never really ever make a whole unit of them.. Most people mix.

weareinalotoftroublebeale
25-03-2008, 16:39
Slayers are well worth it. If you play the refused flank tactic the slayers will come in handy for only 11 points a unit and the fact they are unbreakable.

I would take 3 to 4 giantslayers and surprise the oppenent when you attack back cause they all count as champion I think which mean that they can only be taken out if you specifically direct your attack on them.

I sometimes take a unit of 35 or 40 but that's because I play 4k+ usually.

Thanks,

Beale

Shamfrit
25-03-2008, 16:52
A unit of ten pure Giant Slayers is an awesome sight to behold.

Try using them at that number, makes shooting less damaging for certain.

BlackViper
25-03-2008, 16:52
Ok, so as I thought there might not be a whole unit of them.

So how does that affect unit casualties? If I take 5 in a unit of 10 (for simplicity) I want them in the front row so they can fight back. But according to the rules (at least in 6th, which I'm still using) casualties are removed from the back ranks to represent models filling forwards, but they can't attack back that turn... Where the models in ranks are different how does this work?

Assume 5 are killed on the charge (hey, they have no save!) is that the five trollslayers from the back (pretty unfair for my opponent) or the five giantslayers from the front (pretty worthless for me).

BlackViper
25-03-2008, 16:53
Makes shooting less damaging?

Shamfrit
25-03-2008, 16:57
If you only have 5 giant slayers (talking from the perspective that the entire unit is comprised of Giant Slayers) it's easier for the opponent to wipe them out in one shooting round. 10 T4 Models who don't suffer panic from shooting to me, seems the perfect number, as it's at least a turn or two more to get into combat.

Bleakwood
25-03-2008, 17:05
Ok, so as I thought there might not be a whole unit of them.

So how does that affect unit casualties? If I take 5 in a unit of 10 (for simplicity) I want them in the front row so they can fight back. But according to the rules (at least in 6th, which I'm still using) casualties are removed from the back ranks to represent models filling forwards, but they can't attack back that turn... Where the models in ranks are different how does this work?

Assume 5 are killed on the charge (hey, they have no save!) is that the five trollslayers from the back (pretty unfair for my opponent) or the five giantslayers from the front (pretty worthless for me).

Giantslayers are champions and as such have to be targeted individually by your opponent, and any exess wounds are wasted(except for challenges of course).
So if he is not targeting them and you take the 5 wounds from your example, you remove the 5 Trollslayers from the rear rank and your 5 Giantslayers then get to hit back.
This is a serious advantage but one you are paying 15p a piece for, and if you are playing against an experienced opponent, your advantage will be minimal.

weareinalotoftroublebeale
25-03-2008, 18:38
Try keeping to a rule for every 10 or so slayers you will have one giant slayer. So if you have 30 you have 3. So the cost really become immaterial if you lose all 3 rather quickly.

Again some people would rather just fight slayer as the giant slayers WS make a difference but the difference is very minimal if you are not fighting WS2 units or WS5 units.

Thanks
Beale

Huw_Dawson
25-03-2008, 19:02
I think Slayers in general are horrendously underestimated, and a unit of Giantslayers is absolutely lethal. They're more of a 3k choice than 2k, though, because of the cost involved to use them, and people tend to throw pricy monsters in at 3k.

- Huw

BlackViper
25-03-2008, 19:25
Ah - 10 is better then 5 for missile damage. I thought you meant giantslayers are better than trollslayers (?!)

So, giantslayers count as champions (like a veteran in other units) and as such can only be targeted by a challenge. I have to admit that that seems like a good advantage - to have a front rank of five that cannot be killed by the first charge (unless somehow my opponent can delare five challenges). Worth the 15 points? Yeah, actually I think I can see that being a possibility now... although it'd probably put my opponent's noses out of joint a little.

Now, are you sure that they'd get to attack back in the first turn? My interpretation would have been that if 5 slayers die on the first turn, no-one in my unit would get to attack back until the second turn... but then, if they haven't been challenged...

Bleakwood
25-03-2008, 19:39
Ah - 10 is better then 5 for missile damage. I thought you meant giantslayers are better than trollslayers (?!)

So, giantslayers count as champions (like a veteran in other units) and as such can only be targeted by a challenge. I have to admit that that seems like a good advantage - to have a front rank of five that cannot be killed by the first charge (unless somehow my opponent can delare five challenges). Worth the 15 points? Yeah, actually I think I can see that being a possibility now... although it'd probably put my opponent's noses out of joint a little.

Now, are you sure that they'd get to attack back in the first turn? My interpretation would have been that if 5 slayers die on the first turn, no-one in my unit would get to attack back until the second turn... but then, if they haven't been challenged...

Yes. I'm sure. They are axactly like normal champions, its just that you can have more than 1.
And they dont have to challenged, the opponent can allocate attacks against them, but excess wounds are wasted(i.e. you target a giantslayer with 2 attacks and both wound. He dies but the other wound is not transferred to anyone and only counts as 1 CR).
This would be the advantage that you pay so much for, since the enemy would no doubt amass fewer kills than if he was attacking rank-and-file, and if he choose to do that anyway, then all your giantslayers can strike back regardless of casaulties(well, they will be removed if you run completely out of rank-and-file, just like other champions).

Be Afraid
25-03-2008, 19:48
basically, each modle fighting can choose too put an attak either against the unit (so will kill troll slayers) or against a certain giant slayer (does not neciserily have too challenge, but any excess wounds are wasted)

so say a unit of 5 knights charge into your unit of 10 slayers, with a 5/5 ratio. your opponent could say, make each knight attack a different giant slayer, and let the horses attack the 'unit' (so hit troll slayers) that means, that if 2 knights and 1 horse did wounds, you would lose 1 troll slayer and 2 giant slayers, and have 3 giant slayers attacking back. but, if, again for example your opponents champion hit and wounds twice (and has declared too attack 1 modle) then his extra wound will be completely wasted, and not even count for overkill.

hope that helps/makes sense.

BlackViper
25-03-2008, 20:21
Thanks guys, I've got a pretty good idea of how they work now. I will experiment next time I get a chance.

Granitearm
25-03-2008, 20:42
I used to run my Trollslayer units 15 strong with 3 giant slayers and setup like this:

TTTTT
TTTTT
GTGTG

I liked that because it gave me bonus attacks, let me challenge a bunch of times (great for slowing down a Chaos Lord on a Dragon) and there was no argument about whether the trollslayers were a valid target or not when they get charged.

It looks pretty sweet too.:cool:

Braad
26-03-2008, 06:36
As far as I know, wounds on unit champions do get carried over to the unit.
Can't look it up for you right now, though...
Also, models that only have base-to-base contact with champions, and not to regular models, how can they attack a regular trooper?