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Xavier
26-03-2008, 00:07
Hello, Upcoming doubles tournament, 1500 points in total, 750 points each. I've not had that much experience playing with Vampire Counts, though am a regular tournament player with other armies, so sort of know what I'm doing :p

That said, can anyone point out any glaring weaknesses or oversights in the following lists, or things that could perhaps be done differently. Though I am fairly set in my play style, that said I will be more than willing to listen to people's suggestions if they have a basis, and aren't just, "take this unit cause it is teh rox."

So... onto the lists... yet another undead one wee...

List One

Vampire - Innvocation, Raise Dead and ...
Nightmare
Dark Acolyte
Lord of the Dead
Balefire Pike
Flayed Hauberk
Black Periapt
=208

10x Crypt Ghouls
=80

12x Skeleton Warriors
Musician and Standard Bearer
=108

5x Dire Wolves
5x Dire Wolves
=80

4x Fell Bats
=80

6x Black Knights
Barding
Musician and Standard Bearer
=192

=748

List Two

Vampire - Innvocation and either Light, Fire, Metal or Death
Forbidden Lore
Summon Ghouls
Book of Arkhan
Talisman of Lynci
Biting Blade
=200

Necromancer - Vanhels Danse
Dispel Scroll
Power Stone
=100

10x Crypt Ghouls
=80

6x Black Knights
Barding
Musician and Standard Bearer
=192

Varghulf
=175

=747

Cheers for looking and any input would be appreciated.

Edit: Something else I'd like to discuss if possible.

Would it be worth losing the Power Stone on the Necromancer, and giving him the Black Periapt instead, and swap the Flayed Hauberk and the Black Periapt on the Vampire for the Rod of Flaming Death?

Edit number 2: Both lists are being used together, its essentially a 1500 point army split in two :p

kris.sherriff
26-03-2008, 13:45
Seems a solid enough list mate (not that I am surprised)

The only things I would look at would be losing the nightmare from your Gen so that both BK units can benefit from being ethereal and knowing how you like to play I am surprised that you aren't using a jack in the box cheap winged vamp in ghouls just in case you face something that really needs to be dead early.

Your necro seems to be solid the way he is. If you fancied taking a risk you could give him two power stones instead and really go for that Vanhel's spam in one turn? (Not that you are one to take the risk of running a list with no scrolls)

Kris

Xavier
26-03-2008, 16:15
In truth that is one thing I considered, though I don't really know if I'd want to spend so many points on Ghoulkin and Flying Horror... I'd much rather just have a solid magic phase, and Ghoulkin has the problem of seperating my army out too much, with some parts lagging behind. The only way I could actually get it to work would be by dropping the necro, something I don't really want to do... Since it'd mean having to paint another vamp :p

Edit: On reflection of the above, I sort of am already, both my vampires are intended to be able to do what the 'jack in the box' would do, just potentially requiring another turn to achieve it. But having run lists with the JSoD (Jaguar Saurus of Doom) and Alter's I don't see it as that big a deal, what's one extra turn after all... :p

The nightmare isn't there so he can join the black knights persay... its more so he can actually use the lance and so I can get some strength 7 in my list, not to mention magical fire in case a treeman shows up :)

I like having a scroll, especially at this points level when one warp lightning, or the equivalent could easily wipe out a unit, and with my style of play, MSU, it'd be a bad thing :)

What do you think Kris, should I try and get the rod of flaming death in there too? An extra bound and a magic missle that forces panic tests...

Edit Mk2: And what do you think I should do with the second vamp, Forbidden Lore and Summon Ghouls, or Master of the Dark Arts?

kris.sherriff
26-03-2008, 17:43
Not sure about the rod of flaming death, I always thought it was too many points in the old book but I think it has gotten better (stupid changing of armybook confusing me) it is something that only playtesting will show I think.

Also the think with ghoulkin is that you only need to get off one vanhels and you have reformed you line especially if you have a bk unit stay close in that first turn so they should not be too isolated but the decision for me would be weather I could afford to have one of my vamps that far from my lines so early in the game. It is nice to have the option though.

Also have you thought about summon wolves rather than ghouls? the extra movement could be useful.

Kris

Xavier
26-03-2008, 18:32
Wolves aren't infantry, so it'd only be a single wound replenished per casting, and remember it's not a summon as such, its just replenishing existing units, which can be done already, just not with the +1 and limited to existing max unit size.

kris.sherriff
26-03-2008, 19:52
Well that would explain it wouldn't it.
So summon ghouls it is then. :)

Kris

Xavier
26-03-2008, 23:54
Yet another new contemplation... Would it be worth dropping the necromancer for a wight king with the battle standard?

SonofUltramar
27-03-2008, 22:10
Can I ask which half of the army will you be using as with your style of play i'm sure the list will do well but i'm not sure your partner has the necessary experience to use an army like this?

Character wise i'd stick with the Necromancer as if you want to rule the magic phase that 3rd magic user who can fire off the same spell multiple times could soak up Dispel Dice or actually mean things will just get through if they really want to stop your Necromancers spell?

On the whole I like the army especially in that its not just crammed full of new stuff and uses a core of tried and tested units which while having not played with you will have played against many times so should know how they should work:)

Xavier
27-03-2008, 22:13
Not actually worked that part out yet :p I'm still trying to play test it as a 1500 army, then ill break it down and such. He will do by the end of it, ill explain the principles and stuff, then just keep him right. Dunno, in truth, will have to see how it works out, though, I have a history of doubles partners who quickly pick up the forces given to them to use, so it should be all good, and what's the worst that could happen? Paul gets slightly better as a result? That's a good thing no? ;)

I've actually just finished yet another version, after some play testing, will put it up in a few moments.

SonofUltramar
27-03-2008, 22:23
The worst thing would be that Paul learns some tactics beyond a magic bombardment army, wait a minute thats a good thing!! Conflict can't role round quickly enough, lol

The only thing with Paul's mentality is that he is a very defensive player and will only commit to an attack if its heavily stacked in his favour, he's not big on risk which your armies sometimes need a little bit of to be very successful? You may need to push him from that comfort zone the first few times but i'm sure he'll do ok

Xavier
27-03-2008, 22:32
Ok, here's the list with some refinements and stuff...

Vampire
Nightmare
Dark Acolyte
Lord of the Dead
Balefire Pike
Flayed Hauberk
=188

Strength 7, 16' 'reach out and touch them' range, so can effectively deal with chariots and that ever threatening Treeman, perhaps on this occasion joining up with the Black Knights for magical tree felling goodness. Since its a doubles tournament either Vampire could be the general, so the Flayed Hauberk should hopefully give him at least some defence. Lord of the Dead is obviously included to increase the skeletons size and mean he can hopefully 1 dice a good few attempts.

Vampire
Dark Acolyte
Summon Ghouls
Book of Arkhan
Talisman of Lynci
=190

Similar in design to the other Vampire, though this time opting for a 'retreat is a better part of valor' approach in that, if he's the general, he will be running from unit to unit to stay alive instead of relying on armour, or if the other Vamp has taken up the mantle, he can assume an effective 18" exclusion zone for support units, or even charge out of units to force further fleeing of units. Book of Arkhan is like Vampires Hail of Doom, so it naturally finds a home.

Necromancer
Dispel Scroll
Black Periapt
=95

Scroll Caddy. Though has the potential to dish out two Danse's a turn, since the Periapt's transfered dice becomes a pool dice, he can effectively use 2 on each attempt... poor man's power stone... etc. Other than that, he will just be floating around taking notes on how to do the whole 'raise' thing :p

Corpse Cart
Balefire
=100

Another bound spell, always strike first for units nearby and the always useful added magic defence, which giving it some thought could help out against the no doubt abundant vampire casting armies that will be in attendance, hopefully making the others have to two dice their casting attempts... I just hope no one else is this clever... *cough*

10x Crypt Ghouls
=80
10x Crypt Ghouls
=80

Woo... Ghouls... toughness 4 poison goodness.

5x Dire Wolves
=40

Points to burn and everyone needs fast cavalry... even if they are Undead, they have a use ;)

10x Skeletons
Standard
=88

Decent enough unit, though feeble on paper, it will be getting boosted with invocations. In truth my main line isn't really there for anything, its more the Undead trying to do the 'wood elf thing' but failing at it because they can't shoot... still fake battle lines for the win and all that...

4x Fell Bats

War machine hunting, march blocking, mage hunting... yea, you get the idea.

6x Black Knights
Barding
Musician and Standard Bearer
=192

6x Black Knights
Barding
Musician and Standard Bearer
=192

Flanking force who don't care about terrain? Sold and since the steeds aren't slowed by their barding, still movement 16", perfect for keeping up with the Varghulf. Their role should be pretty obvious, so yea... go them.

Varghulf
=175

One of my main reasons for getting Vampire Counts in truth, I love this guy. He'll be hanging around with the black knights till they decide they don't want to march anymore, then he'll go do his own thing, probably involving faces... and eating... and shoes...

Once again, any glaring flaws, point them out... I'm off to try and split this exactly 1500 point force into two 750 point ones... oh dear.

Xavier
27-03-2008, 22:36
The worst thing would be that Paul learns some tactics beyond a magic bombardment army, wait a minute thats a good thing!! Conflict can't role round quickly enough, lol

The only thing with Paul's mentality is that he is a very defensive player and will only commit to an attack if its heavily stacked in his favour, he's not big on risk which your armies sometimes need a little bit of to be very successful? You may need to push him from that comfort zone the first few times but i'm sure he'll do ok

Yea... lol

In that case I shall be doing it every chance I get just to annoy him... Incidentally, my armies don't rely on playing the odds anymore than is... sensible... most of the times things I do may look really suicidal, but they almost always have a contingency of some kind, or some means to completely screw over whatever unit has just, 'been lucky'.

The only thing I'm unsure of with this army is the lack of ability to 'reach out and touch them :p' Thus why I wanted the rod of flaming death for a bit, but still that would just be one 'guaranteed' D6 S4... I was contemplating the banshee for a bit, but then I'd need to lose the Varghulf :(

Then again, playing the psychological game is always fun, who needs shooting anyway :)

kris.sherriff
27-03-2008, 22:40
10x Crypt Ghouls
=80
10x Crypt Ghouls
=80

Woo... Ghouls... toughness 4 poison goodness.


And I though poison was overrated?

I think this list is better to be honest and am sure you will eat up some dispell dice with people wanting to keep the skeli unit small especialy if you were to keep a vamp in it for the first couple of turns.

Kris

Xavier
27-03-2008, 22:47
It is... if you need a special character to benefit from it, now get back to your Tomb Kings loser.

Yea, that's my thought as well, and if they do that then all it really does is help me. Like I said, that unit is just there as a fake battle line. Without going to over the top, my plan is to raise zombies for crossfire and take advantage of odd angles of fall back and pursuit, if that concept makes sense. Not too sure, it still needs some play testing, which I can actually get round to doing properly now I have finished my course work... (Just exams to go... but, only losers revise...)

SonofUltramar
27-03-2008, 23:00
I'd definitely keep the Varghulf as it's just to good not to take. It is effectively a unit of Chaos Knights that cause terror and regenerate, oh and moves faster and is easier to manouvere?

Thing is with VC's your options for baiting an enemy are greatly reduced without actually losing a unit like the Dire Wolves as nothing can flee to redirect the enemy and all your other units are to valuable to lose in such a way? Not sure how you are going to overcome this kind of problem?

Looking at the revised list I do prefer the Necromancer with the Periapt for ongoing magic support. On the whole the list seems good as is to be expected, lol

Xavier
27-03-2008, 23:06
If it was something that really needed to be redirected then zombies can be summoned, though, at 50 victory points a go, it would be something not overly used ;)

I don't tend to bait that much, only frenzied things, don't tend to need to, more people move where I expect them to, or more aptly, I plan for what I would do in their position and set up to counter that, while still looking for the alternatives and try and have a fall back plan for them.

In my previous post I didn't mean to use the raised zombies as baiting units in the sense I was talking about, just for getting in the way of fall back moves and march block... and generally be in the way :p

SonofUltramar
27-03-2008, 23:24
In my previous post I didn't mean to use the raised zombies as baiting units in the sense I was talking about, just for getting in the way of fall back moves and march block... and generally be in the way :p

I suppose if you raise even 5 zombies behind the enemy then you can block a route of escape that could put the vampires unit in jeapordy?

The only thing is I hope you've factored in new army syndrome and as you said with things like the book and multiple attempts at Vanhels then it may become very difficult to predict how your opponents may use their VC's force? I'm guessing you're just going to be going with the tried and tested "hunt the mage" but if said mage is a vampire you may be in for a tough time slowing them down especially if they've gone magic heavy too?

Xavier
27-03-2008, 23:35
That's one of the reasons I took balefire on the corpse cart. Personally I can see a Vamp v Vamp match up between this list and a similar magic level list being a stalemate, least until the mage hunters/other units change things up a bit.

New army syndrome? You mean that everyone and their 'little red dog called Clifford' will have Vampires? Then yes, like most going into this kind of situation I run through the likely opponents and try and decide if the army can 'handle' them in a satisfactory way, though this does only go so far...

And most vampires at this points level aren't that tough, as I've noticed if you go heavy magic you have next to no armour, aside from the hauberk. With vampires, since you can't actually run from combat, 'hunt the mage' tends to become, 'throw the fell bats over there at that unit' or 'kill the mages unit'.

I'm not too sure I understand what your meaning with the zombies though, are you meaning using the unit of 5 as a screen or something? Perplexed.

SonofUltramar
28-03-2008, 09:19
I'm not too sure I understand what your meaning with the zombies though, are you meaning using the unit of 5 as a screen or something? Perplexed.

I was meaning if you raise a unit of Zombies behind the enemy, a fleeing unit will be be destroyed automatically as long as you have US5 which means you don't have to pursue a valuable enemy unit which could leave your Vampires unit vulnerable to flank charges etc. granted you wouldn't get the standard but in the grand scheme of things you're still winning.

Also good with the Varghulf if a unit fails its Terror test you could kill them with a cheap unit of zombies if they flee into them, who needs actual combat?

Xavier
28-03-2008, 15:48
Ah, indeed, and with the conflict scoring system its only 100 points to the person with the most captured standards, not each individual one.

And indeed, that's my thoughts, also a role for the dire wolves :)

Xavier
28-03-2008, 20:22
Alright, final version, barring any awesome feedback, or glaring omissions that come up during play testing.

Vampire
Nightmare
Dark Acolyte
Lord of the Dead
Balefire Pike
Cadaverous Curiass
Dispel Scroll
=203

Strength 7, 16' 'reach out and touch them' range, so can effectively deal with chariots and that ever threatening Treeman, perhaps on this occasion joining up with the Black Knights for magical tree felling goodness. Since its a doubles tournament either Vampire could be the general, so the Curiass is there so he can have some defence, and as an added bonus can go skink hunting if needs must ;) Lord of the Dead is obviously included to increase the skeletons size and mean he can hopefully 1 dice a good few attempts.

Necromancer
Book of Arkhan
=95

Dansing machine, book and a potential to cast it twice on 2 dice, (3 in the pool with periapt) Apart from that he will just be lurking about somewhere observing.

10x Crypt Ghouls
=80
10x Crypt Ghouls
=80

Woo... Ghouls... toughness 4 poison goodness.

5x Dire Wolves
=40

Points to burn and everyone needs fast cavalry... even if they are Undead, they have a use ;)

3x Fell Bats
=60

War machine hunting, march blocking, mage hunting... yea, you get the idea.

6x Black Knights
Barding
Musician and Standard Bearer
=192

Flanking force who don't care about terrain? Sold and since the steeds aren't slowed by their barding, still movement 16", perfect for keeping up with the Varghulf. Their role should be pretty obvious, so yea... go them.

745 for the first part of the 1500 point list.

Vampire
Dark Acolyte
Summon Ghouls
Black Periapt
Helm of Commandment
=190

Slight change of approach here, given the new found desire to squeeze the Helm in and a re jig of points, in any case when he becomes the general he will still be flitting about between units, just slightly slower... :p

Corpse Cart
Balefire
=100

Another bound spell, always strike first for units nearby and the always useful added magic defence, which giving it some thought could help out against the no doubt abundant vampire casting armies that will be in attendance, hopefully making the others have to two dice their casting attempts... I just hope no one else is this clever... *cough*

10x Skeletons
Standard and Musician
=92

Decent enough unit, though feeble on paper, it will be getting boosted with invocations. In truth my main line isn't really there for anything, its more the Undead trying to do the 'wood elf thing' but failing at it because they can't shoot... still fake battle lines for the win and all that...

6x Black Knights
Barding
Musician and Standard Bearer
=192

Flanking force who don't care about terrain? Sold and since the steeds aren't slowed by their barding, still movement 16", perfect for keeping up with the Varghulf. Their role should be pretty obvious, so yea... go them.

Varghulf
=175

749 for the other half of the 1500 point force.

One of my main reasons for getting Vampire Counts in truth, I love this guy. He'll be hanging around with the black knights till they decide they don't want to march anymore, then he'll go do his own thing, probably involving faces... and eating... and shoes...

Once again, any glaring flaws, point them out...