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Joezombie
26-03-2008, 02:58
I was looking at the numbers and the what it seems the obious "betterness" (?) of the bats

Smaller Frontange
+2" to Full move
The ability to move their full move even without Vamps nearby
Fly, over stuff I mean, and moving that fast with nearby enemies
And this one is still up in the air - D6 instead of 1, wounds per casting of IoN
An odd number of wounds to the unit does not remove as many attacks

Yes the wolves are X points cheaper, but are X points really worth it?

GrogsnotPowwabomba
26-03-2008, 04:24
Wolves negate enemy ranks and bats don't. That is their main strong point relative to bats.

Zethal
26-03-2008, 07:55
Also X points is 60, which is more then twice the cost of the wolf unit.
Both units have there place.
Wolves are super cheap flankers, alright warmachine and archer hunters.
While Bats are best used for crossfire and march blocking, and as your other thread mentions better screens for KotBK.
If your using bats to warmachine or archer hunt it may be more worth your while to field 2 units of wolves, you save 20 points and a special slot.

dzungia
26-03-2008, 08:46
The wolves cancel flanks but with T3 and without any armor one needs more than 6 of them in order to be able to still cancel the flanks after back attacks. If they attack an elite unit, it requires even more wolves. And one can only restore 1 wolf per IoN casting. They are cheap but as said, this cheapness has a reason :)

Bats are expensive, true. But they dont need their mummies (vampires) to let them charge. However, they are also T3 and no armor save.

So, whichever is taken on to the battlefield, they can be only used against the Warmachines and the lonely wizards. By the way, I have not seen any lonely wizards for a long time. Against warmachines a specialized Vampire seems to be a far better option.

Oberon
26-03-2008, 09:09
Nah, ranks are counted when the combat starts, so you need only 3 of them in the flank/rear to take those away. You do need many to get that flank/rear bonus for CR yourself though, and the wolves could only give them more CR from kills if you are unfortunate.

FurryMiguell
26-03-2008, 09:38
I use both. gives a good and effective mix:p

Cheers:D

Dark_Mage99
26-03-2008, 09:53
Remember, also, that it's -1 to hit the bats with shooting, making them handy screens.

I think for hunting war machines, bats are what you're after... but for suicide runs against characters, wolves will do the job a little better.

Balgor
26-03-2008, 09:56
Well I am personally going to take both.

5 Wolfs to go up the flank with my vargulf to hunt warmachines or what ever they feel like eating.

And I am also going to take 3 Bats, thats 60 points but they have 2 wounds and 2 attacks each, and on the first turn I can raise them getting d6+1 wounds to get more (I have a corpse cart with lodestone)

I read a post saying that their is a debate about this, but if you read the ION spell it says anyone apart from basic infantry only gains 1 wounds. And if you look at the summary page felbats are in the infantry section meaning they can get the full d6 wounds.

Oberon
26-03-2008, 10:02
Indeed, fell bats are more easily raised than wolves. I'm currently fielding 5 bats (I don't have bat summoning power) and 2x5 wolves. Bats seem to take a lot of punishment while flying to warmachines->I need many of them (they rarely win their fights anyway). Wolves are great diverters, I'll have to assemble the other box of them soon. 4x5 wolves=great.

dzungia
26-03-2008, 10:32
Nah, ranks are counted when the combat starts, so you need only 3 of them in the flank/rear to take those away. You do need many to get that flank/rear bonus for CR yourself though, and the wolves could only give them more CR from kills if you are unfortunate.

Rulebook, page 38:
Title: Extra Rank
Quote: "This bonus (rank bonus, dzungia) is lost if the unit is fighting to its flank or rear against an enemy unit with a unit strength of 5 or more. Note that this applies while the enemy unit in the flank/rear is in combat - if the enemy unit breaks or flees, or is reduced to a unit strength of less than 5, the unit regains its rank bonus at the beginning of the following turn."

Title: Flank Attack
Quote: "If you are fighting against an enemy unit's flank you may add a +1 bonus so long as your unit has a unit strength of 5 or more after both sides have attacked."

You are right about canceling ranks. No +1 for flanking but who needs it as long as the enemy has no rank bonuses :)

Oberon
26-03-2008, 10:37
First I began to wonder, "where did I went wrong??" as I read those quotes, but then you proceeded to say I was right? Nice to hear it yes, but still... Rulequotes are often used like that when trying to prove that the other was wrong, not to prove him right when no one has questioned it :)
Thanks, anyway.

luckyguy
27-03-2008, 06:58
Also wolves can help you direct enemy charges. Fell bats are flyers and thus skirmishers and must line up with the attacker when he charges. As the wolves are not skirmishers attackers must align with them.

I use both as both have their uses.

Karhedron
27-03-2008, 09:18
I use both as both have their uses.
QFT!

For just 140 points you can take a unit of 3 Bats to go war machine hunting and 2 units of 5 wolves for flank charges, redirections etc.

VCs have plenty of tricks up their sleeves so it is worth taking plenty of them. After all, it is easy enough to raise more core troops during the battle if you need them.