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Doppleskanger
26-03-2008, 16:47
I didn't want to kidnap the thread on Ordo Xenos as it's a slightly different point. But it got me thinking about how easily a combined Inquisition codex could be put together. This is my suggestion using almost all pre exising rules and point costs, and keeping all availible models in use apart from the inquisitorial retinue models. I think it would also be on the money for the new simplified codex style. Just add in a few special characters and you'd be away...



HQ

Grey Knight Brother Captain (May select Grey knight Choices and veteran squad or terminator squad as retinue)

Soritas Heroine (May select Sisters of Battle Choice and veteran squad as retinue)

Death Watch Commander (May select Death Watch Choices and veteran squad or terminator squad as retinue)

Inquisitor (May select Storm Trooper Choices and veteran squad as retinue)

Imperial Assassin

(0-10) Imperial Priests (do not take FO slots but each must be attached to a separate squad)


Elites

Sisters Repentia (Sisters of Battle only)

Dreadnought (Grey Knight and Death Watch only)

Grey knight Terminators

Death Watch Terminators

Death Cult Assassins


Troops

Grey Knight squad (Can Deep Strike and can be given Veteran Upgrade)

Sisters of Battle Squad (Can take Immolator and can be given Veteran Upgrade)

Death Watch Squad (Can take Razorback and can be given Veteran Upgrade)

Storm Trooper Squad (Can take Chimera and can be given Veteran Upgrade)


Fast Attack
Grey knight Assault Squad

Celestians

Death Watch Assault Squad

Archo Flagellants (Requires Inquisitor)

Penitent Engine Squadron (Requires Inquisitor)


Heavy Support

Predators (Only if GK/SoB/DW are present)

Whirlwinds (Only if GK/SoB/DW are present)

Devastators (Grey Knights and Death Watch only)

Retributors (Sisters of Battle only – but now have lascannon option!)

Leman Russ (Only if Stormtroopers are present)



Special Rules

All Sisters of Battle have 5+ Invulnerable Save

All Grey Knights are Fearless and have Furious Charge

All Death Watch count as having Preferred Enemy all the time

All Storm Troopers may regroup, even if under half strength



Inquisitor Special Rules

Inquisitor may be accompanied by retinue of Veteran Stormtroopers

Or be given power armour and be accompanied by Veteran Grey Knight/Death Watch/Sisters squad

Or be given terminator armour and be accompanied by Grey Knight/Terminator squad

In addition

The Inquisitor may be accompanied by a single companion

Demonhost, Alien Advisor, or Alpha Level Psycher. If this choice is taken the army may not contain any Grey Knight, Sisters of Battle or Death Watch Choices. The companion may join any squad the inquisitor joins, but must always remain within 3 inches of the Inquisitor.

IceDragon84
26-03-2008, 16:59
Some of the things I would change a bit, but overall I think it would work pretty well, making an armoury that works well could be a pain with those faction-specific weapons.

Lord Inquisitor
26-03-2008, 17:23
I agree with a lot of things. In particular, there's not really any reason to differentiate between Inquisitors of different ordos. Witch-Hunter Tyrus is more heavily armed than most Inquisitors, while Eisenhorn carries enough anti-daemon kit to make a Malleus man blush. There really isn't any need for ordo-specific wargear.

Here's my list then, as a comparison.

HQ

Inquisitor Lord. Variety of Inquisitorial henchmen as normal, but also can add Death Cultists and arco-flagellants as retinue. I agree that an Alien Advisor, Daemonhost or Unbound Psyker should also be attachable to the Inquisitor's squad, but would mark him out as a radical.

By adding powerful characters like Daemonhosts and Death Cultists to Inquisitorial retinues, it would make them far more useful and survivable.

Deathwatch Captain/Librarian

Grey Knight Master

Sororitas Heroine

Priests

Elites

Grey Knight Terminators

Officio Assassins

Inquisitor (as with Inquisitor Lords)

Celesitans

Deathwatch Terminators

Troops

Sisters of Battle

Sister Repentia

Deathwatch Kill Teams

Grey Knights

Inquisitorial Stormtroopers

Fast Attack

Deathwatch Strike Teams (Deathwatch on bikes/land speeders)

Grey Knight teleport attack

Seraphim

Pentient Engines

Heavy Support

Land Raiders

Land Raider Crusaders
these are not specific to Grey Knights but can be used as GK land raiders

Grey Knight Dreadnought

Orbital Barrage

Exorcists

Retributors/Dominions (both can be combined into one choice)

Some form of heavy support choice for the Deathwatch - something with big guns to cover the Deathwatch as they go in. E.g. deathwind pods.

Lord Damocles
26-03-2008, 17:25
The main problem with this list is that there are too many / not enough unit options. Hmm, this seems a little odd, let me try to explain...

Lots of the options on this list seem to have no basis in the background (Deathwatch Terminators), and the inclusion of others would radicly alter the 'feel' of Inquisitorial forces (Grey Knight Predators).
On the other hand, the list seems limited to puritan choices - where are the Xenos mercenaries, Deamonhosts etc?

This is not a criticism of your attempt however: this is the main problem which is bound to be encountered by making an army list which covers three different fighting forces. The shear number of units available (Puritan and Radical forces from each of the three Ordos, Ecclesiastical forces, the three Militant wings, Inducted Guard and marines) means that the list is either bound to be made up of literally dozens of units which won't look like a cohesive force on the table top - or - the number of units will have to be drasticly cut; making it difficult to field 'pure' forces (such as pure Grey Knights).:(

Hope that made sense ^ :angel:

Eryx_UK
26-03-2008, 17:26
I certainly would like to see the GK and the SoB combined into one force.

Corrupt
26-03-2008, 18:23
How about you have
Inqusitors, Inqusitorial Stormtroopers, Assasins, attatched IG/Marines etcetcetc designated as neutral and can be taken by anyone.
Then add three seperate mini lists following this for the three sections (Alien Deamon and Witch) and say you can only take troops and equipment from the armoury from one of these three sections(although there is no necessity to fill any slots from the neutral list so pure SoB and GK are still playable)

only joking...
26-03-2008, 18:33
I think if you really really wanted to honour the fluff and expectations of fans you would have to do two coicies: one puritan and one radical. Each codex would cantain all three orders.

Scharnhorst
26-03-2008, 18:35
Maybe you could also do something to fix repentia, penitent engines and the other units from codex witchhunters that always perform poorly.

Lord Inquisitor
26-03-2008, 19:39
Hmm, my version wasn't complete for some reason, so I've updated my post above.


Lots of the options on this list seem to have no basis in the background (Deathwatch Terminators), and the inclusion of others would radicly alter the 'feel' of Inquisitorial forces (Grey Knight Predators).
On the other hand, the list seems limited to puritan choices - where are the Xenos mercenaries, Deamonhosts etc?

I've posted my version, a little different but fundamentally the same idea.

- "radical" units should be fairly minimal. A single choice - daemonhost, alien advisor or unstable psyker is enough to mark your inquisitor out as a radical. Give them a weapon choice for a Daemon weapon and you're done! :evilgrin:

- whole units of xenos mercenaries would be overdoing it. They kill xenos, remember? Allowing an inquisitor to take one in his retinue would be enough to get the radical "feel" without swamping the list.

- Inquisitors just aren't that great. So allowing them to take daemonhosts, deathcultists, arcos and other wierdos in their retinues would make them much more viable AND it would cut down the number of units in the list without cutting them from the list altogether.

- For the chambers militant, just make sure each one has at least one HQ, elites, troops, fast attack and heavy support choice. I've listed my suggestions above. A simple rule - such as, you must have a troops choice from each of the chambers militant in order to take other units from the same ordo prevents cherry-picking too much - but at the same time, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with having sisters and grey knights in the same army. I think you could just remove any restriction - just as with Chaos, most people will stick to one or two factions, but a mix wouldn't be that bad... would it?

- I've cut down the number of choices as much as possible. Dominions and Retributors could be safely combined as one choice with more options. We don't need the distinction between Grey Knight Land Raiders and regular Land Raiders.

- The net result is a list that preserves everyones existing armies, adds in the Alienhunters, and doesn't have many more units than Chaos, for example.

Promethius
26-03-2008, 21:29
Lots of the options on this list seem to have no basis in the background (Deathwatch Terminators)

Have to say, I don't really agree with this. Not only are there characters in terminator armour in the kill team novels, but the deathwatch are known to actively board hibernating 'nid hive ships to destroy them from within and to board space hulks at the bequest of the inquisition, both situations in which terminators excel. Furthermore, the Inquisition has access to the best resources the Imperium has to offer, so should be able to equip their kill teams with terminator armour if necessary.

Really like the list though. My only criticism is that I would like to see a new 'deathwatch only' entry, either a specialised tank varient or perhaps an admech explorator team (how about praetorian battle servitors as a deathwatch heavy support option?).

Inquisitor_Eljer
26-03-2008, 23:11
All in all I think I agree with the spirit of the original posters thought-stream. I might like to see some revisions to the above though. Like making sure all existing units were represented in there some-where. Seraphim missing from the OP's first post for example.

I thought I'd add a couple suggestions...

- Add the Repressor as a valid transport for the Inquisition forces as a whole (SoB, GK, DW, or IST) possibly with different weapon options for each force

- Let Priests be taken as a Retinue option as well (might help to make a CC Inquisitor)

If they tied the ability to field specific units to different Retinue options tagged as Radical or Puritan it could open the field tremendously but would result in players having to buy other codexes as this one would be to large to fit all possible entries.

As an example , if a Demagogue was a retinue choice but allowed for 0-1 Daemon Hosts, or a Tech-Priest allowed the fielding of Servitor squads, or Kroot Sharper allowing the fielding of a Kroot squad, etc. Some could be Puritan (those accepted by the Imperium), while the use of non-human forces would likely be considered Radical.

I think in 5th Edition some units like Arcos, Penitent Engines and Sister's Repentia will get a bit 'better' with the Run rule, depending on the final wording of how Run works with models already capable of additional movement (Holy Rage). I agree that most of those could do with some minor tweaquing though.

Arcos - give them a normal armor save if they roll a 6 during movement
Penitent Engines - Let them fire their flamers during the shooting phase even if locked in CC
Repentia - I'd revise these alot. I'd give them a 5 armor save, allow the squad to use Faith if the Mistress was alive, and drop their points slightly.

I think GK need another Fast Attack option and GK & DW Dreads should be available as Elite OR Heavy, but must be Venerable if fielded as Elite. This only helps to croud other Elite choices, but does give some flexibility.

I'd also add IST Sentinels as an option for Fast Attack.

Just some of my rambling thoughts.

Super Ninja
26-03-2008, 23:19
I dont think making two codexes for radicals and puritans is a good idea, afterall, this thread is about making one codex for the Inquisition. It would combine all three lists and provide Adversaries rules for all three Ordos.

Here is my Army List idea:

HQ

Grey Knight Hero: (BC or GM) and can have GK Terminator retinue.

SoB Heroine: (Palatine or Cannones) and can have Celestian retinue.

Deathwatch Kill Team: Deathwatch commander and squad. only possible DW specific choice in army list in respect to fluff.

Inquisitor Lord/Lady: Wargear and henchmen choices will afect army composition. for example: if the Inquisitor Lord takes a Daemon Weapon, then the Inquisitor can not include GKs or SoB and can only take stormtroopers as Troops. Radical Inquisitor Wargear and Henchmen should make the Inquisitor much more powerful (which is why he/she would want the weapon/mercenary) but should drasticly afect possible unit choices as a consequence.

Elites

GK Terminators

SoB Celestian Squad

Death Cult Assassins

Oficio Assasinorum Operative: 0-1 of course.

Sisters Repentia

Arco Flagellants

GK dread.

Troops

Stormtroopers

SoB Squad

GK Squad

Eclesiarchy Priests (Angry Old Guys:D): like WH priests but with more shooty and morale enhancing abilities.

Alien Mercenaries

Fast Attack

GK Teleport Attack Squad

SoB Seraphim Squad

SoB Dominion Squad

Heavy Support

GK Land Raider or Crusaider

Orbital Strike: 0-1 and with better rules so that it's actualy worth using.

GK Purgation Squad

SoB Retributor Squad

Pentient Engine

Eorcist

The Inquisiton will still get to have inducted SM or IG. The origional Inquisition Special Characters wiould be included along with additions like Gregor Eisenhorn and other famous Inq. personalities.

Inquisitor_Eljer
26-03-2008, 23:23
I've posted my version, a little different but fundamentally the same idea.


No Arcos in your list?



- "radical" units should be fairly minimal. A single choice - daemonhost, alien advisor or unstable psyker is enough to mark your inquisitor out as a radical. Give them a weapon choice for a Daemon weapon and you're done! :evilgrin:

- whole units of xenos mercenaries would be overdoing it. They kill xenos, remember? Allowing an inquisitor to take one in his retinue would be enough to get the radical "feel" without swamping the list.

- Inquisitors just aren't that great. So allowing them to take daemonhosts, deathcultists, arcos and other wierdos in their retinues would make them much more viable AND it would cut down the number of units in the list without cutting them from the list altogether.


I agree and disagree. I think each Retinue choice should unlock an 0-1 Elite, Fast Attack or Heavy Support choice (no troops). It lets the real Radicals field unique lists, but any Radical retinue entries can't be taken in conjunctions with any Ordo Militant options.



- For the chambers militant, just make sure each one has at least one HQ, elites, troops, fast attack and heavy support choice. I've listed my suggestions above. A simple rule - such as, you must have a troops choice from each of the chambers militant in order to take other units from the same ordo prevents cherry-picking too much - but at the same time, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with having sisters and grey knights in the same army. I think you could just remove any restriction - just as with Chaos, most people will stick to one or two factions, but a mix wouldn't be that bad... would it?

- I've cut down the number of choices as much as possible. Dominions and Retributors could be safely combined as one choice with more options. We don't need the distinction between Grey Knight Land Raiders and regular Land Raiders.

- The net result is a list that preserves everyones existing armies, adds in the Alienhunters, and doesn't have many more units than Chaos, for example.

Again, for the most part I agree, as long as all the existing units in DH & WH are represented in the combined book. OX is a different matter since it's entirely 'new' as far as a fully-fieldable force (at least in my mind), although I like your Strike Team fast attack options...No Assualt Marines for the OX though? Just curious.

I also think that IST unit choices should exist for each force org slot as well. Might just be me though.

And maybe open the Exorcist up to all forces with different Exorcist missile profiles (different round entries for SoB, GK, DW or IST?)

Inquisitor_Eljer
26-03-2008, 23:26
I dont think making two codexes for radicals and puritans is a good idea, afterall, this thread is about making one codex for the Inquisition. It would combine all three lists and provide Adversaries rules for all three Ordos.

Fast Attack

GK Teleport Attack Squad

SoB Seraphim Squad

SoB Dominion Squad



I think your Fast Attack force org slot is light a couple choices. I'd at least give them IST Sentinels and the DW Strike-Team bike or speeder options suggested above.

HsojVvad
27-03-2008, 00:00
Well me sick today so not going to make a full list yet but give a few ideas.

Depending on the HQ you take, then you will either be DH, WH or AH. Everyone can have imperial sentinels for troops, but depending on HQ again DH can have GK, WH can have SoB and AH will have DW obviously.

Everyone can have the assisans. There would be be slightly different rules for DH, WH, and AH. We will have our Radicals and Puritans. Puritans would have the normal rules but can't take nothing that a Radical can have.

DH Radicals would be able to have Deamons and use Deamon weapons, WH would be able to use *(forget at the moment what radiacls use need to check codex)* and AH Radicals would have some kind of Alien weapons and\or Aliens for a retinue.

Any opponent going up against a Radical would be able to have some extra points for SM that can only attack said Radicals. They would have to Deep Strike maybe?

I can't think of anything yet but have so many more ideas. I love this thread and lets keep it up. Could we combine our own thoughts and make a codex ourselves?

I believe we can mention names but no specs or point costs. We could say as an example GK for troops on DH codex page XX as point cost and specs.

silence
27-03-2008, 00:10
i really like the idea of haveing the radical and puritan lists within a single codex with little other differences between the various ordos

Heru Talon
27-03-2008, 00:14
::Looks at link in Sig::

Lord Damocles
27-03-2008, 00:17
Going off at a slight tangent, do we think that any new Inquisition codex would allow Inquisitorial units to be taken as allies in other Imperial armies? While it would make sense that they could be, if the rumours are to be belived, Daemons won't be able to be attached to Chaos Marine forces, which is a similar situation.

Maybe now's the time for a re-issuing of 'Codex: Assassins':D

HsojVvad
27-03-2008, 01:18
Anthour I idea, what I read from anthour thread, if GK, SoB or DW team is involved, no Radicals can be used then.

Chem-Dog
27-03-2008, 04:02
I wouldn't combine the Ordos with the Chambers Militant at all, I'd seperate them.

I know a lot of people will probably hate this suggestion but it's worth putting it out there...
Codex: Inquisition
Codex: Grey Knights
Codex: Sisters of Battle
Codex: Deathwatch

Now, let me Explain. The two Inquisition Books we have at the moment share two Common points,
1: They can be used to detail a force lead by or at least joined by an Inquisitor and forces at his disposal BUT they can easily be used to represent a "pure" Chamber Militant force of just GK or AS.
2: They REALLY need re-doing to bring them into line with the new way of laying out Codexes (or just REALLY need doing, full stop, in the case of the Ordo Xeno)

This is where four seperate Books would be of most benefit, the units of the Sisters of Battle aren't going to need a drastic overhaul, nor are the Grey Knights, they WILL require a little work to streamline them in keeping with the Lean Mean Codex Machine BUT in a majority of the cases simply need a simplified rule set.
This means two of the four Codexes would be relatively easy to knock out quite quickly allowing more time to put work into the other two.

the Ordo Xenos Codex is widely perported to be in games development hell with a reluctance to put another Marine variant list out there but no real alternative available, This approach would allow players to field their own Inquisitorial Xenos forces by using without having to wait for the DW to show up, the Inquisitors of the Three ordos plus whatever Marine/IG troops they should have access to combined with a revised and refined henchman system and an expanded selection of "radical" troops and wargear without the needing to get into convoluted explanations of what units can or can't be included with what units or cannot be included if Inquisitor Bob decides to wear his "Wristwatch of Chaos".

In each Case the "Militant" Codex would have access to an Inquisitor option (either in the HQ section and/or in the Elites) these would be less flexible than the Inquisitors in the "Codex: Inquisition" whilst still allowing players to Include their ultra Puritan Inquisitors (It would even be possible for the same model to represent the same guy/gal in different armies at different times) and, to my mind, at least, they would represent Paragons of Virtue within their own Ordo accompanying the Ordo's military arm on a mission of great import.

Avaron
27-03-2008, 04:30
With only one codex I would want to see a rule that states that to take Gray knight, sisters, or death watch you must have a HQ of the proper type in the army.

even when its just one squad of Gray Knights under a inquistors command they still usualy have someone acting as a commander for the gray knights.

big squig
27-03-2008, 07:16
HQ
Inquisitor Lord (any ordo)
Grandmaster (malleus)
Sister Superior (heriticus)
Deathwatch master (xenos)
Special characters (as specified)

Elite
Assassins, deamon hosts, arco flaggelents, Inquisitors (any ordo)
Greyknight terms (malleus)
Seraphim, Repentia (heriticus)
Deathwatch vets (xenos)

Troops
Storm troopers, Guard platoon (any ordo)
Greyknights (malleus)
Sisters (heriticus)
Deathwatch kill teams (xenos)

Fast
Sentinels, hellhounds (any ordo)
Immolator squads, penitent engines (heriticus)

Supports
Orbital Strike, leman russ (any ordo)
Landraider, dreadnought (malleus)
Exorcist (heriticus)

Have simpler rules for heriticus acts of faith (a Ld test should be sufficient) Give deathwatch teams perfered enemy and special ammo, make greyknights a bit cheaper, and standardize the ally rules.

You must choose HQs from the same ordo. The ordo of your HQ's determines what units you can take.

Ronin_eX
27-03-2008, 08:07
Some of the things I would change a bit, but overall I think it would work pretty well, making an armoury that works well could be a pain with those faction-specific weapons.

Actually the beauty of the "armoury in the options" system with all the new codices is that this wouldn't be a problem at all. Only Sororitas characters are able to take that? Only put it in their options. Simple as that. Again I think it is a great way of tailoring options to individual characters without needing to fill a separate armoury with loads of exceptions and restrictions. I too hope for an overall Inquisitorial book (actually I'd like to see it cover all imperial agencies including AdMech, Sanctioned Psykers, Assassins and the Inquisition but I don't think that will happen).

Luckywallace
27-03-2008, 08:26
I think any list like this will need to have 'limits' built in to stop un-fluffy selections that don'r match-up.

For instance, SOB's and Grey Knights may well ally in certain situations but you would not get an army of Sisters backed up by a pair of Grey Knight dreadnoughts and nothing more. Likewise, no Grey Knight armies with a single squad of Seraphim.

I would say that besides the Inquisitorial basics (Inquisitors, Stormtroopers, Retinues etc.) the choices avaliable should be limited by what HQ's you take.
Thus, you need a Canoness to be able to take any other SOB units or a Grey Knights grand master to take any other Grey Knights. What is more, you have to field at least two basic 'troop' choices as compulsory before being able to take any other units.
That would keep the idea that Grey Knights and Sisters are still seperate, distinctive forces in their own right... ideally I'd like my Sisters to stay as their own seperate army but ah well...

destroyerlord
27-03-2008, 10:16
I think the easiest fix for mix/matching has been said a few times already. To take GK units you have to have a GK HQ choice, same for Sisters and Death watch. This means that if you do want to mix things up a bit you have to have two (expensive) HQ choices and miss out on the Inquisitor.
I don't believe inquisitors should be split up into different ordos for fluff reasons as given above. Eisenhorn is an ordo xenos, but you wouldn't know it, considering his arch-rival is a daemon host. The distinction should come from the choice of wargear and the model itself. This helps add some of the character that you get from =I=
I also agree that there should be minimum 1 elite, fast and heavy for each chamber militant, allowing 'pure' forces.
Radicals are something that appeals to me a lot, but are harder to implement without tough restrictions or complicated rules. Having 1-3 daemonhosts/alien advisors/alpha psychers may sound like a cool idea, but if it stops you from being able to take chamber militant forces then what do you have left? inquisitors and stormtroopers? Thats not an army....

Axel
27-03-2008, 10:37
I wouldn't combine the Ordos with the Chambers Militant at all, I'd seperate them.

I know a lot of people will probably hate this suggestion but it's worth putting it out there...
Codex: Inquisition
Codex: Grey Knights
Codex: Sisters of Battle
Codex: Deathwatch

I think if we use that as a guideline within the Codex Inquisition we come close to it.

So we should have

Inquisitors and henchmen
- Assassins, DCA, Demonhosts, Arco Flagellants, Penitent Engines, Xenos, etc...

Only available if a HQ slot is also used for them:
- Grey Knights
- Adeptus Sororita
- Deathwatch
These should be possible - if within limits - to be played as pure forces.

And the other forces always available to Inquisitors should get the same treatment they have in the current codizes:
- Imperial Guard
- Adeptus Astartes
- other, eg Adeptus Arbites

We could also give the Ecclesiarchy their special treatment and cut off Penitent Engines and Zealots from the Inquisition and hand them only to Cardinals or similar HQ choices from the Church.


While such a book would be a small monster with practically four seperate lists (five if Ecclesiarchy is added) all of them are limited in singular use and only make sense in combination. Via the HQ you can combine any two of them, which restricts abuse and rosine-picking.

Jos
27-03-2008, 10:54
I agree with axel, It makes sense to restrict them and prevent abuse. Another thing I would like to see is the option to ally any two imperials (within limits such as eg. DA and SW)

Chem-Dog
27-03-2008, 16:09
Actually the beauty of the "armoury in the options" system with all the new codices is that this wouldn't be a problem at all. Only Sororitas characters are able to take that? Only put it in their options.
Agreed, my original scepticism of the new Codex format dissapeared when I found I could build a unit without using 2 books and thousands of page turns to check each item's effect onlly to find, some time later that that guy isn't allowed that thing anyway....


I'd like to see it cover all imperial agencies including AdMech, Sanctioned Psykers, Assassins and the Inquisition but I don't think that will happen

I for one would expect the Adeptus Mechanicus to get their own Codex



I would say that besides the Inquisitorial basics (Inquisitors, Stormtroopers, Retinues etc.) the choices avaliable should be limited by what HQ's you take.
Thus, you need a Canoness to be able to take any other SOB units or a Grey Knights grand master to take any other Grey Knights. What is more, you have to field at least two basic 'troop' choices as compulsory before being able to take any other units.

This is kinda like what happens most of the time anyway, for example a majority of the Grey Knights units can only be included if you have a GK HQ first, it's less of an issue with the SoB list but I think that Codex was written in the knowledge that a large amount of players would be taking a pure SOB list.


Radicals are something that appeals to me a lot, but are harder to implement without tough restrictions or complicated rules. Having 1-3 daemonhosts/alien advisors/alpha psychers may sound like a cool idea, but if it stops you from being able to take chamber militant forces then what do you have left? inquisitors and stormtroopers? Thats not an army....

You're forgetting the IG and Marines ;)


I think if we use that as a guideline within the Codex Inquisition we come close to it.

So we should have

Inquisitors and henchmen
- Assassins, DCA, Demonhosts, Arco Flagellants, Penitent Engines, Xenos, etc...

Only available if a HQ slot is also used for them:
- Grey Knights
- Adeptus Sororita
- Deathwatch
These should be possible - if within limits - to be played as pure forces.

And the other forces always available to Inquisitors should get the same treatment they have in the current codizes:
- Imperial Guard
- Adeptus Astartes
- other, eg Adeptus Arbites

We could also give the Ecclesiarchy their special treatment and cut off Penitent Engines and Zealots from the Inquisition and hand them only to Cardinals or similar HQ choices from the Church.


While such a book would be a small monster with practically four seperate lists (five if Ecclesiarchy is added) all of them are limited in singular use and only make sense in combination. Via the HQ you can combine any two of them, which restricts abuse and rosine-picking.

I honestly think that you're expecting far too much from one Codex, by my count, the GK and WH alone count for something like 25 units, not including special characters, that's without even venturing into the DW who can be expected to provide at least another 5 (one would hope for more), add in the IG and Marine units that an Inquisitor can be expected to requisition and you're getting close to 50 units.

Lord Inquisitor
27-03-2008, 16:18
If they tied the ability to field specific units to different Retinue options tagged as Radical or Puritan it could open the field tremendously but would result in players having to buy other codexes as this one would be to large to fit all possible entries.
Needing other codexes (bearing in mind that Inquisition armies currently require Space Marine or Imperial Guard books if you want those allies) is a bad idea.

This came up in the Alienhunters thread - the Inquisition and the Ordo Xenos shouldn't be able to for some reason call upon vast numbers of aliens to fight for them - they're not their troops. Ditto for daemons or other wierdos. Allowing a radical Inquisitor to take one alien psyker/bounty hunter/daemonhost or whatever in their retinue would curb the madness and keep things managable within the list and still give you that naughty radical feeling.


No Arcos in your list?
I was suggesting that they become a Henchman choice. Which is pretty much what they should be.


I agree and disagree. I think each Retinue choice should unlock an 0-1 Elite, Fast Attack or Heavy Support choice (no troops). It lets the real Radicals field unique lists, but any Radical retinue entries can't be taken in conjunctions with any Ordo Militant options.
I don't know about the retinues "unlocking" other choices. I think it sufficient to say something like you need a Troops choice from a particular chamber militant to take other choices.


Again, for the most part I agree, as long as all the existing units in DH & WH are represented in the combined book. OX is a different matter since it's entirely 'new' as far as a fully-fieldable force (at least in my mind), although I like your Strike Team fast attack options...No Assualt Marines for the OX though? Just curious.
The Strike Teams came up when brainstorming for a Ordo Xenos list (http://www.geocities.com/eoinwhelan/Inquisition_Army_List_v3.0.pdf) for Epic. We decided that the three types of troops needed were:
Boarders: as mentioned before, Deathwatch must have Terminators to fulfil the really nasty missions like Space Hulk boardings.
Kill Teams: these are the mainstay of the Deathwatch, versetile and capable of dealing with any situation
Strike Teams: these are rapid-reaction forces designed to hunt down and kill any escaping Xenos (things like genestealers or enslavers that are too dangerous to allow even one to survive)

Assault teams are a little too specialised, and besides, the kill teams are vicious assault units anyway.


And maybe open the Exorcist up to all forces with different Exorcist missile profiles (different round entries for SoB, GK, DW or IST?)
Interesting, although that would require a new model...


::Looks at link in Sig::
Yeah, I've looked at that. But that seems like a real wish list. Everything and their dog is in there. It doesn't look like a cohesive list.


Going off at a slight tangent, do we think that any new Inquisition codex would allow Inquisitorial units to be taken as allies in other Imperial armies? While it would make sense that they could be, if the rumours are to be belived, Daemons won't be able to be attached to Chaos Marine forces, which is a similar situation.
That's a very good question. I suspect that they might be the exception and the allies rules will be preserved.
- There are a lot of people with units like Grey Knights in other armies
- There are a lot of Daemon/Witch Hunters players with guard or marine allies.

I very much suspect that the latter will remain, even if they have to print entries for things like tactical squads in the Inquisition Codex. The former ... I don't know. They may take away the allies and say "well, you can still use them in Apocalypse!" - which is what happened to us LATD players...


I wouldn't combine the Ordos with the Chambers Militant at all, I'd seperate them.

I know a lot of people will probably hate this suggestion but it's worth putting it out there...
Codex: Inquisition
Codex: Grey Knights
Codex: Sisters of Battle
Codex: Deathwatch
Hmm... a possibility. However:
- It would require waiting for GW to get around to 4 Codexes instead of 1-3
- It would require a whole heap of new units to fill out each codex.


With only one codex I would want to see a rule that states that to take Gray knight, sisters, or death watch you must have a HQ of the proper type in the army.

even when its just one squad of Gray Knights under a inquistors command they still usualy have someone acting as a commander for the gray knights.
This is exactly the issue - I don't want to have to take up a HQ slot for an expensive Grey Knight hero just to have a squad of Grey Knight Terminators in my Ordo Malleus army.

A much better solution (which I've already posted) is this:

You may not select any Chamber Militant units unless you have at least one [or perhaps two] Troops choice belonging to that Ordo

That way you can stick in a squad of Sisters if you like, but you can't take an Exorcist without also having a reasonable number of SOB. The only issue with this is people may well want to have Grey Knight Terminators without power armoured ones.

Which brings me to another suggestion:
What would people think about Grey Knight Terminators being a Troops choice? That is how the Grey Knights really operate - the Terminators are the mainstay and the power armoured marines support them. Would it be inherently unbalancing? It might make a huge difference I suppose with the 5th ed scoring system...


I think the easiest fix for mix/matching has been said a few times already. To take GK units you have to have a GK HQ choice, same for Sisters and Death watch. This means that if you do want to mix things up a bit you have to have two (expensive) HQ choices and miss out on the Inquisitor.
Which is exactly why I'm against it. You shouldn't be forced to buy a Grey Knight master just to have Grey Knights in your army. Now, you could get around it by saying that you can have Grey Knights in your army if you have an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor - but I agree with you that the distinction between Inquisitors of different Ordos should be dropped. It's artificial and pointless. Just give all inquisitors all options.

Heru Talon
27-03-2008, 17:34
Yeah, I've looked at that. But that seems like a real wish list. Everything and their dog is in there. It doesn't look like a cohesive list.
It's still WIP of course it's not going to look perfect until it's further developed.

And besides the Inquisition isn't a cohesive organization that can be properly represented by your standard army list, trying to make it so is a pointless waste of time and would end up bastardising the list so much that no-one would particularly want to play it.

Harold Zoid
27-03-2008, 17:50
Combining sisters and GK in one codex is a horrible idea.Sisters and GK differ from each other a lot - they use different tactics, have their own tech, special rules, wargear. If they would be combined in one book, a lot of it will be lost. Plus there will be abominations like "3 exorcists, several GK dreads, inducted sm lasplas squads". And also its quite unfair - why should they lose their own books while there are so many codexes for space marines?
Shouldn't black, gray, red and dark green SM lose their codexes too?

BreakingPoint
27-03-2008, 19:40
Here's how I would break down the codex:

Codex Inquisition
1. The Inquisition
1.a. Forces of the Inquisition
2. Ordo Malleus
2.a. Grey Knights
2.a.I. Forces of the Grey Knights
2.b. Forces of the Daemonhunters
3. Ordo Hereticus
3.a. Sisters of Battle
3.a.I. Forces of the Sisters
3.b. Forces of the Witch Hunters
4. Ordo Xenos
4.a. Deathwatch
4.a.I. Forces of Deathwatch
4.b. Forces of the Alien Hunters

This actually gained my interest so I have started my own Codex. I already have a pretty good list in front of me, but I'm not quite ready to reveal it. When I develop it a bit more I'll post it somewhere for all to see and critique

I agree it's kind of lame that each Ordo won't get their own codex, but I suppose one big one is better than waiting for Xenos and then the other two revisions. Plus it will add a bit more cohesion to the Inquisition as a whole.

Super Ninja
27-03-2008, 19:46
I dont know why anyone here would want to make DW assault squads, DW termies and DW predators. It's just completely contradictory to the fluff! the Deathwatch opperates in single, covert and lone Kill-Teams that try to avoid combat as much as possible to complete specific objectives with as little outside help as possible. On the field of battle, single DW Kill-Teams spearhead attacks against alien forces backed up by IG or SM. DW assault squads, termies, and predators don't exist.

P.S. Dont be a Hater Harold Zoid. If I were in charge at GW things would be alot different and im sure its the same for most other people to. If I could I'd make seperate codexes for special IG Regiments but I cant. Besides, with all the money they rakes in from SM sales, GW is able to pay for all the other races.

Chem-Dog
27-03-2008, 20:06
Needing other codexes (bearing in mind that Inquisition armies currently require Space Marine or Imperial Guard books if you want those allies) is a bad idea....

Agreed, any Inquisiton Codex would have to detail any IG and Marine options.


...Allowing a radical Inquisitor to take one alien psyker/bounty hunter/daemonhost or whatever in their retinue would curb the madness and keep things managable within the list and still give you that naughty radical feeling.

Totally. It's tempting to include the option to make some kind of "cultist" army for a Renegade/Radical Inquisitors but using the right models for IG squads would have the same effect with no need to include additional rules.



I don't know about the retinues "unlocking" other choices. I think it sufficient to say something like you need a Troops choice from a particular chamber militant to take other choices.

I can see the logic behind having a henchman unlock a certain list option but it does feel a little too restrictive, for one, you would HAVE to include an Inquisitor to gain access to the henchman.
I don't actually see henchmen continuing in the same way as they exist at the moment, rather a variable size squad of upgradable humans, dropping the stats boosts for including different Henchmen and make the unit more useful on the battlefield, only a particularly desperate Inquisitor is going to take his personal trainer and secretary into battle, the rest of the time they'll take Combat veterans. IMHO anyway.


Hmm... a possibility. However:
- It would require waiting for GW to get around to 4 Codexes instead of 1-3
- It would require a whole heap of new units to fill out each codex.

I know! but the thought that keeps me sane is that it'd take less work to adapt the Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle into stand alone codexes than it would to redo the two that have been done and the one we're still waiting for.
In short, better to have some of the Inquisition out and current than waiting for the whole thing to come in a big clog some time after edition 6 :rolleyes:


This is exactly the issue - I don't want to have to take up a HQ slot for an expensive Grey Knight hero just to have a squad of Grey Knight Terminators in my Ordo Malleus army....

You may not select any Chamber Militant units unless you have at least one [or perhaps two] Troops choice belonging to that Ordo...

Which brings me to another suggestion:
What would people think about Grey Knight Terminators being a Troops choice? That is how the Grey Knights really operate - the Terminators are the mainstay and the power armoured marines support them. Would it be inherently unbalancing? It might make a huge difference I suppose with the 5th ed scoring system...

Which is exactly why I'm against it. You shouldn't be forced to buy a Grey Knight master just to have Grey Knights in your army. Now, you could get around it by saying that you can have Grey Knights in your army if you have an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor - but I agree with you that the distinction between Inquisitors of different Ordos should be dropped. It's artificial and pointless. Just give all inquisitors all options.

Alternatively have Inquisitors offer access to a number of units from their own particular Ordo (in a similar way to how the previous edition of the Chaos Codex allowd Marked lords to take Cults of the same god as troops instead of elites), Inquisitor Lords would obviously have the authority to sequester huge forces drawn from his own Ordo's Chamber Militant where a lesser Inquisitor might only hope to aquire a couple of units assigned to him by that same Lord.
You COULD then include forces from all three Ordos but you'll have to take at least 1HQ and 2 Elite slot Inquisitors to allow that thus reducing the amount of nastiness that can be included in one army, If you want to take just 2 GK termis, An inqisitor's status SHOULD be enoungh to get them.

TheOverlord
27-03-2008, 20:19
I don't think that a Grey Knight would ever fight with any Inquisitor that has a Daemonhost, so whilst an Inquisition codex all rolled into one is awesome, there has to be restrictions. Sororitas, Grey Knights and Deathwatch will never fight alongside any Inquisitor that is quite obviously Radical in his thinking, so you'll have to add some elements of restrictive choices in the codex if you wanna do it that way.

BreakingPoint
27-03-2008, 21:21
I dont know why anyone here would want to make DW assault squads, DW termies and DW predators. It's just completely contradictory to the fluff! the Deathwatch opperates in single, covert and lone Kill-Teams that try to avoid combat as much as possible to complete specific objectives with as little outside help as possible. On the field of battle, single DW Kill-Teams spearhead attacks against alien forces backed up by IG or SM. DW assault squads, termies, and predators don't exist.

I can see the argument against Predators and Assault Squads, if they did exist they would be extremely rare. Even then an Assault Squad would just be a jump pack equipped Kill-team.

However I think there is some validation for the Terminators. There are instances where Terminator armour would be more beneficial than simple Power Armour. I can see the Terminators as the Marines who don't go back to their Chapter and continue fight for the Ordo Xenos. They certainty wouldn't be a commonality on the battlefield for Deathwatch, but they would be there.

Giving them vehicles and what not like a regular chapter might be a bit of a stretch though. If they did use them it would be temporarily from a requisitioned force.

Carlos
27-03-2008, 21:45
PHAIL.

Any inquisition codex that tried to cram in the whole lot would be far too long and over complicated (much like the last chaos codex) which isnt the way 40K is going. Instead it should be seperated into 2 distinct books:

1. Inquisitors
2. Sisters of Battle

Looking at the fluff the only true army alongside marines and the guard are sororitas. their are thousands, if not millions of them across the galaxy and they are distinct enough to deserve their own codex as opposed to being a tool of the hereticus. (Hell, they got their own Dawn of War add-on)

Grey knights are far too rare to really be fielded as any sort of army and instead should be used as the imperial equivalent of harlequins, that is a small squad in power/terminator armour fighting alongside guard/marines/sisters as some sort of uber-elites choice that can ONLY be used against chaos. Beef them a bit and put them in white dwarf alongside the daemons book. Larger GK armies should be left to games of apocalypse where they fit in well. Fluff-wise, GK's shouldnt really be fighting Orks, Nids or Necrons as their are only 1000 of them (if that) spread across the galaxy and an army of 30-40 is just unrealstic and daft.

Thus, an Inquisitorial codex would be inquisitors themselves, along with their various factions and fluff. The 3 core Ordos: Hereticus, Malleus and Xenos would each get representitive characters that are to be used alongside other armies, not on their own which is as it should be. Players can then use a Guard army to emulate Inq Storm troopers and the like.

This would leave sisters to get their own book alongside all the other cool ecclesiarchy stuff.

t-tauri
27-03-2008, 21:56
I dont know why anyone here would want to make DW assault squads, DW termies and DW predators. It's just completely contradictory to the fluff! the Deathwatch opperates in single, covert and lone Kill-Teams that try to avoid combat as much as possible to complete specific objectives with as little outside help as possible. On the field of battle, single DW Kill-Teams spearhead attacks against alien forces backed up by IG or SM. DW assault squads, termies, and predators don't exist. There's no evidence to say that either way to my knowledge.

I'm sure the veteran kill teams would equip themselves how they wanted. More wargear and weapon choice for individual marines would give you any equipment required. I could see teams in scout armour for stealth, speed or long-duration operations.

Tactical Dreadnought armour suits were developed for close environments like Space Hulks. Among the primary targets of Kill Teams would be things like Space Hulks and Tyranid Space ships so I'd be surprised if the Inquisition didn't have access to terminator suits for properly trained kill teams. From the background it seems as if the Inquisitor has quite a bit of power over which marines are drafted to the Deathwatch so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to get Terminator capable vets. Some would bring their own armour, others would use (and keep as payment?) suits provided by the =I=.

The use of large concentrations of Deathwatch isn't too well supported by the current background. Then again, neither are armies of Grey Knights unless they're hunting Daemon Primarch. It wouldn't contradict existing background too much to say that in extreme circumstance then a number of kill-teams and support units are brought together. If the background is retconned to allow armies of Deathwatch then I'm sure they'd have armour and heavy support specialists. The space is there in the background if GW decide to go that way.

Lord Inquisitor
27-03-2008, 23:14
I dont know why anyone here would want to make DW assault squads, DW termies and DW predators. It's just completely contradictory to the fluff! the Deathwatch opperates in single, covert and lone Kill-Teams that try to avoid combat as much as possible to complete specific objectives with as little outside help as possible. On the field of battle, single DW Kill-Teams spearhead attacks against alien forces backed up by IG or SM. DW assault squads, termies, and predators don't exist.
I pretty much agree with everything t-tauri has said (taken the words out of my - well, keyboard I suppose - even as I was writing them!)

But, basically, jump packs and Terminator suits are simply equipment, which Kill Teams should certainly a) have access to and b) be able to use.

As I've said before, I don't think assault packs are likely to be used much (they're too specialised in my mind), whereas bikes or speeders are faster for Strike Teams. Terminator suits, on the other hand, are a must for Alien Hunters...



* * *


The use of large concentrations of Deathwatch isn't too well supported by the current background. Then again, neither are armies of Grey Knights unless they're hunting Daemon Primarch. It wouldn't contradict existing background too much to say that in extreme circumstance then a number of kill-teams and support units are brought together. If the background is retconned to allow armies of Deathwatch then I'm sure they'd have armour and heavy support specialists. The space is there in the background if GW decide to go that way.
The largest concentration of Deathwatch in the background that I know of (don't know if the C.S.Goto books can top this) is 60 Deathwatch Marines deployed as a single formation in Xenos. Later, these same 60 Deathwatch were also deployed leading/accomplanying squads of other troops.



* * *


Totally. It's tempting to include the option to make some kind of "cultist" army for a Renegade/Radical Inquisitors but using the right models for IG squads would have the same effect with no need to include additional rules.
Again, this would be fun as hell, but not likely to happen. If I were designing the list it wouldn't get in there, however entertaining it might be.


I don't actually see henchmen continuing in the same way as they exist at the moment, rather a variable size squad of upgradable humans, dropping the stats boosts for including different Henchmen and make the unit more useful on the battlefield, only a particularly desperate Inquisitor is going to take his personal trainer and secretary into battle, the rest of the time they'll take Combat veterans. IMHO anyway.
The idea of an Inquisitor travelling with a specific group of individuals some of which may not be combat-monsters is a prevalent one and something that should be preserved. Unfortunately it makes the units pretty weak. The solutions are to make even the non-combatants tougher (giving all henchmen more armour or even a forcefield save would help) or put some really nasty henchmen in there - daemonhosts, deathcultists, arco-flaggelants, etc. All of these are just as "fluffy" operating as henchmen if not more so, would pack a serious punch to Inquistorial Retinues and would also serve to reduce the number of units in the list. Sorted!


In short, better to have some of the Inquisition out and current than waiting for the whole thing to come in a big clog some time after edition 6 :rolleyes:
Well, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with the daemonhunters and witch hunters codexes. They could always just actually make a bloody Alienhunters codex and I'd be a very happy little Inquisitor!


Alternatively have Inquisitors offer access to a number of units from their own particular Ordo (in a similar way to how the previous edition of the Chaos Codex allowd Marked lords to take Cults of the same god as troops instead of elites), Inquisitor Lords would obviously have the authority to sequester huge forces drawn from his own Ordo's Chamber Militant where a lesser Inquisitor might only hope to aquire a couple of units assigned to him by that same Lord.
I like this idea, but don't forget there are people out there that want to make pure-chamber-militant forces. Especially sisters. I've seen very, very few Ordo Hereticus armies that weren't pure sisters.



* * *


I don't think that a Grey Knight would ever fight with any Inquisitor that has a Daemonhost, so whilst an Inquisition codex all rolled into one is awesome, there has to be restrictions. Sororitas, Grey Knights and Deathwatch will never fight alongside any Inquisitor that is quite obviously Radical in his thinking, so you'll have to add some elements of restrictive choices in the codex if you wanna do it that way.
That's easy. Simply a note that if you can't take "radical" henchmen if you take any chamber militant forces.



* * *


Giving them vehicles and what not like a regular chapter might be a bit of a stretch though. If they did use them it would be temporarily from a requisitioned force.
Not sure why people think this. After all, they DO have their own vehicles, at least as far as rhinos and razorbacks. So they must have maintenance, crew and deployment capabilities. A predator is not exactly a streach from there. In fact, I think it very likely that Deathwatch have units designed to be covering fire-type units - there to engage the enemy so the Kill Team can get in there and do their job.

Imagine a Predator, for example, with 4 assault cannon on it. Now that would be a distraction! For Epic I gave Deathwatch fighter craft, modfied Thunderhawks and rather nasty Assault Landing Craft to fulfil this role, but we could come up with ground variants.

Yeah, just putting predators in the list would be boring. Some new choice with lots and lots of guns on it to fulfil this role might be cool.



* * *


Any inquisition codex that tried to cram in the whole lot would be far too long and over complicated (much like the last chaos codex)
Have you looked at my list on page 1? It has the same rough number of entries as the current Chaos codex...


which isnt the way 40K is going. Instead it should be seperated into 2 distinct books:

1. Inquisitors
2. Sisters of Battle
Which wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea. Making the sisters the Ordo Hereticus Chamber Militant was a daft idea in the first place. The reason I think it might be a good idea, as I already mentioned, is that most Witch Hunter players seem to prefer pure-sisters, while Daemonhunters tend to use mixed armies. Maybe an over-generalisation, but I think that's pretty common.


GK's shouldnt really be fighting Orks, Nids or Necrons as their are only 1000 of them (if that) spread across the galaxy and an army of 30-40 is just unrealstic and daft.
But armies anwhere upwards of 300 GKs being deployed are in the background. Plus who said there are only 1,000 of them? Like the Deathwatch, there are almost certainly many times that number.

t-tauri
27-03-2008, 23:48
Which wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea. Making the sisters the Ordo Hereticus Chamber Militant was a daft idea in the first place. The reason I think it might be a good idea, as I already mentioned, is that most Witch Hunter players seem to prefer pure-sisters, while Daemonhunters tend to use mixed armies. Maybe an over-generalisation, but I think that's pretty common.I think that it was a bit of creativity that kept the Sisters list alive. By selling them as the chamber militant they got the codex which allows all Sisters armies and a set of new minis.

If they hadn't been set up as the OH chamber militant then Sisters would be as dead as Squats.

Kettu
28-03-2008, 03:01
I think that it was a bit of creativity that kept the Sisters list alive. By selling them as the chamber militant they got the codex which allows all Sisters armies and a set of new minis.

If they hadn't been set up as the OH chamber militant then Sisters would be as dead as Squats.

Wait, so giving them a New Codex and a few new minis saved them but had they just received a new codex and a few new minis they would be dead?

:wtf:

Had they received their own codex with only their own force represented within they would've received new units anyway.

They survived without a codex longer then any other army, they survived Three, count them, Three new armies coming along in the meantime with a fully fleshed out army and codex, they survived the Grey Knights receiving recognition before they finally received a codex that they had to share and that suffered the same problem that their previous codex did; A new edition came out straight out after it.

I personally think that the Sisters of Battle should become a separate Codex once again. Have their history re-retconned back to where Ordo Herticus was a foot note and not their keeper.
And along with it they need new units of their own. (and plastics)

Then Codex Inquisition can come along. Have the three main ordos, Grey Knights, Death Watch and OH's own chamber militant; Which, if I'm not mistaken, isn't that the Sisters of Silence anyway?

And, as GW doesn’t want to break with tradition, they'll probably release anything sister related months before sixth edition.:rolleyes:

Lord Inquisitor
28-03-2008, 17:00
Wait, so giving them a New Codex and a few new minis saved them but had they just received a new codex and a few new minis they would be dead?
What he's saying is that they never would have gotten around to making a new Sisters codex ... a fairly fringe army with an expensive metal range which would presumably appeal to a limited customer base. It would have required making a whole heap of new units to fill out the list. However, once they had decided to follow Daemonhunters with Witch Hunters, Sisters became more attractive - they'd have to make new models for the Ordo Hereticus, but they wouldn't need to make a whole new range for an Ordo Hereticus Chamber Militant, differentiating the Witch Hunters from the Daemonhunters and keep all the sisters players happy.