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warlord hack'a
26-03-2008, 15:59
Hi there,

I was wondering if people measure their fast cav movement as strictly as they should or if I am just interpreting it wrongly. Here is my dilemma:

Fast cav has a free reform. Now I read this as: "they do not have to pay for it by not marching and sacrifing their entire turn of movement". I do not read this as: "any movement associated with the actual reform is free".

This is a huge difference and my feeling is that a lot of people wrongly use explanation number 2. E.g. envision your fast cav nose to tail stretched out in one thin line of 9 models. Then there is 18 inch distance between the nose of the front model and the tail of the last model. Now you want to reform into a normal formation of 9 models in one rank, all noses facing one way.

If you follow explanation number one it would still cost you movement as the outer models of your unit will move inwards (4,5 inch to be precise), but if you play by explanation number 2 then this is 'free' and it would cost you no movement.

Now I think explanation 1 is the way to go but I fear that a lot of fast cav users take this too lightly and thus get a lot of extra movement. Especially when changing the number of ranks in the unit the distance moved can be quite high without realizing it. E.g. in the example above reforming into two ranks would mean the outer most models would have to move 6" to achieve this new formation.

What is your opinion and experience?

Taylor
26-03-2008, 16:08
I may be wrong -but- I think there is something in there about how the free movement cannot be more than their actual movement. Now - I interpret that as they can't move more than their maximum march distance BUT they can turn freely and reform their position - so you'd have to measure from the last guy in the unit if they were formed in a line, as you said.
Example; You have 10 wolf riders in the position you mentioned (nose to tail), you'd have to measure from the last guy - so they wouldn't go further than they normally would, but they are free to form up in any rank combination and face any position they'd like. Does that make sense?

That's my two cents.
T.

Nurgling Chieftain
26-03-2008, 16:12
Fast cav movement distance is measured start to finish, model to model. That's not quite the same as either thing you're saying. They could do a complete reform every few inches, and it wouldn't slow them down any. You just check their final positions versus their starting positions.

theunwantedbeing
26-03-2008, 16:13
You cant move each model in the unit more than double it's movement rate away from where it started.
ie. mv9 fast cav cannot move more than 18" away from where they started the turn(when not charging).

warlord hack'a
26-03-2008, 17:25
Nurgling chieftain: that is the way people play it yes (and so do I), but it does not say in the BR that this is the way you should measure. It only states "you can reform as many times as you wish without incurring any movement penalties". It goes on to show a nice diagrams which, as with all disgrams in the BRB is stupidly simple and does not answer my question.
My question is: what is menat under 'without incurring any movement penalties'. IS it simple measuring from A to B and not taking into account any actual zigzagging the indivudual models have to do to maintain formation. I actually doubt that.. THe problem is that the BRB only talks about one reform in it's explanation, because normally that's all one unit cvan do in a movement round. But with fast cav you can do more, but performing multiple reforms is NOT the same as only measuring from begin point till end point..

It might be a small difference but still.. E.g. in my earlier example: suppose you start with the nose to tail line, then reform into a normal one rank, then move forward and then reform back into a nose to tail line. Now under the way most epople play it now the fast cav can mover almost it's entire march move forward as you measure from begin till end of each individual model. But I think you should measure form the end model to it's new position in the reformed unit and then back again at the end of the move, so insteand of measuring:

W-------X
W-------X
W-------X
W-------X
W-------X
W-------X
W-------X
W-------X
W-------X

where W is the wolf start position and X the wolf end position and --- the moved distance it should be 3 steps:
1) move from nose-tail to a normal rank:
W
l
l
l
X

2) move forward:
X-------Y

3) move back into a long conga line (nose-tail) again:
............Z
.............l
.............l
.............l
............Y

measuring the way everybody does now is not described in the BRB and gives fast cav a lot of exrta movement.

Mercules
26-03-2008, 17:37
They move just like some games handle ALL movement. You measure distance for each model separately and they can go where ever the wish during the move as long as they are all contacting each other in one continuous manner at the end of the move. They can even do this while marching. There is no movement penalty for turning, wheeling, changing ranks, or any of that.

Crispian25
26-03-2008, 17:41
The only thing I know (and that's not saying that it is correct) is that no model can move more than double its movement. You can reform any number of times, switch formations, and all, as long as no model moves more than double.

warlord hack'a
26-03-2008, 17:44
Mercules: where does it say that? I know there is no movement penalty, (e.g. 1/4 or 1/2 of your move) but this does not say that you do not actually have to move the models the way you manouver them..

That is my whole point, I know how people play it, but I suspect everybody is playing it wrong..

Nurgling Chieftain
26-03-2008, 18:43
It goes on to show a nice diagrams which, as with all disgrams in the BRB is stupidly simple and does not answer my question.I think it does answer your question. The move demonstrated in the diagram is impossible if you're right.

The reform is really, truly, free, just like it says. Fluff wise, the horses simply dash from their starting position to their final position, they don't go through the zig-zagging contortions technically required.

theunwantedbeing
26-03-2008, 19:00
A reform allows you to expend your entire movement rate to cahnge to whatever formation double your movement rate will allow.
You can move in amongst your own models if you so wish.

Fast cavalry just get to move as well as doing this.
Which means you just move the models to where you want them to be.

eg.

1234567

moves to

1
2
3
4
5
6
7

7 moves diagonally to its final position, it doesnt move to where 1 is, and then move to the end of the line.

sigur
26-03-2008, 19:07
Forgive me to intervene but I have to clear this up for myself. I'm not too god with WHFB rules any more but as a DE player, you learn that "Dark Riders are the best thing EVER" from day one so I'm quite intrigued to get an explanation how fast cav really works. I made a little diagram:

1.) unit is in formation as usual
2.) unit effectively phases out, does whatever it pleases (marked by single dark riders dancing around)
3.) Dark Riders are set up in any fashion, facing, formation, etc. I like with the only limitation being that the unit didn't move more than 18" in total (movement value of 9" x 2 [for marching] = 18")

From reading this thread, I got the impression that moving fast cav is easier than I thought. Could anyone of the knowing guys of you point out any errors in my understanding of this?

Mercules
26-03-2008, 19:12
It is simple. It does a free reform. No model can move more than it's move but otherwise could move ALL over the place endlessly. I can do this 50 times in that movement. I can go from this:

------
------

To this:

//////////

for NO MOVEMENT

When I am finally done moving no model may be more than X inches from where it started where X is its move doubled.

This equates measuring the distance each model moved separately as it can't go more than M*2.

Mercules
26-03-2008, 19:15
Forgive me to intervene but I have to clear this up for myself. I'm not too god with WHFB rules any more but as a DE player, you learn that "Dark Riders are the best thing EVER" from day one so I'm quite intrigued to get an explanation how fast cav really works. I made a little diagram:

1.) unit is in formation as usual
2.) unit effectively phases out, does whatever it pleases (marked by single dark riders dancing around)
3.) Dark Riders are set up in any fashion, facing, formation, etc. I like with the only limitation being that the unit didn't move more than 18" in total (movement value of 9" x 2 [for marching] = 18")

From reading this thread, I got the impression that moving fast cav is easier than I thought. Could anyone of the knowing guys of you point out any errors in my understanding of this?

Sure thing...

No MODEL can move more than 18". Thus you have to measure from where each model started to where it ends up, much like if it was all alone except it has to end in base contact with the rest of the unit.

Porksta
26-03-2008, 19:28
A fast cav unit can move forward 5 inches, turn 90, get in a conga line, dance under the stars, buy a soda, get dinner, take a nap, and ride a bike and as long as they finish what they are doing and stop 5 inches in front, then it only took 5 inches of movement to do any of that.

SuperBeast
26-03-2008, 20:47
BRB, page 70, last sentence of the paragraph 'free reform', just to clarify.
Or, in layman's terms...
If you're keeping same overall formation or removing ranks, simply move the corner model (closest to your desired end position) a march move to your desired end position, form from that corner.
If adding ranks, move the corner model furthest from your intended destination and then form around that.

Can't go wrong, really.

Mercules
26-03-2008, 20:50
It is just easier to measure the distance each model travels and make sure they are all in a legal formation at the end.

sigur
26-03-2008, 21:31
Alright, thanks for clearing that up.:)

warlord hack'a
27-03-2008, 07:54
Unwantedbeing, your diagram actually supports my idea of how to measure the move (though i did it a bit too rectangular). Take your situation of:

1234567

moving into:

1
2
3
4
5
6
7

then you measure diagonally for number 7. But if in the same move the formation moves back again into:

1234567
then you should measure diagonally again from 7 to 7. This is different from measuring from
1234567
to
1234567 in a straight line..

This is especially so if there are two terrain pieces in the way with only a small gap between them, then you have to reform into a thin line to squeeze through, so how far the outer models move is not a straight line but a line which goes from the start position to the gap and then from the gap to the end position, like this:

E
\
TT\
TTT\
TTT/
TT/
T/
B

Where B is the begin, E the end and T terrain and the line the path to be measured. Now measuring as you all describe would be much shorter than measuring along the lines I have drawn..

Aagin: where does it say that you do not pay for this movement, so the actual movement the models have to make to maintain formation, it says nowhere that the models in a fast cav unit are allowed to not maintain formation.. So Sigur's picture is not allowed, the models are not separate in between the begin and end position..

xragg
27-03-2008, 12:41
When you reform, you keep the same center. So 1 and 7 in your example both move the same. I dont think they address this in the current rule book anymore, but fast calvary can basically move in a way called snaking. They line up single file and snake through where ever they are going, like a congo line as someone mentioned.

Also, as far as your example of changing 1----7 horizontal into 1----7 vertical, fast calvary could do that as they moved. Every fraction of the movement, they can add/subtract 1 model from the front rank, where in the long run is the same as just measuring that no models moved greater then their movement allows.

As they move down the page, they would reform like this as they move, not all at once as you are trying to make them move. This way works out the same as just measuring and making sure no model moves more then its movement allows.
1234567

....4
123567

..34
12567

.345
1267

.4
356
127

Atrahasis
27-03-2008, 13:17
xragg, snaking is not permitted at all under the current rules.

If, for example, there is a narrow passageway (a gate perhaps) with a unit blocking it such that a unit of fast cavalry would have to snake to get through the gap, then they cannot pass through as snaking is obsolete and illegal.

Mercules
27-03-2008, 13:49
xragg, snaking is not permitted at all under the current rules.

If, for example, there is a narrow passageway (a gate perhaps) with a unit blocking it such that a unit of fast cavalry would have to snake to get through the gap, then they cannot pass through as snaking is obsolete and illegal.

Skirmishers could easily, but Fast Calv would have to have some straight shot the distance of their bases and form into a unit one model wide with a rank for each model and be able to move through in that formation.

Sterling
27-03-2008, 14:12
A few people seem to be confusing "Change formation" with "reform". I believe "reform" keeps the same center point of the unit, change formation adds or removes ranks. I have seen it done with Tomb King Archer screens...

30 archers lined up side by side, 1 rank, 30 files.
unit turns to the right. 1 file, 30 ranks.
Change formation, adding 5 files to the unit. 6 files, 5 ranks.
the back archers end up moving almost a foot, and it is legal... but it uses up all their movement for that turn.

It can't be done by fast cavalry with the free reform, because it uses the "change formation" maneuver, not the "reform" maneuver.

warlord hack'a
27-03-2008, 14:21
I do not know about your example STerling but my question is still not answered. See my eaelier post with the terrain and think not about examples of reforming once (thsoe are easy) but about reforming at least twice. This is where the actualy distance moved IS important instead of just measuring straight from begin till end (therby measuring straigh through terrain, enemy units etc..) I will give another example:

....XXXXXXX
EEEEE...EEEEE
EEEEE...EEEEE
....YYYYYYY

X is the start position of the fast cav, E are two enemy units with a gap between them of at least 3 inch (you need to stay 1 inch away from enemy units unless charging) and Y is the end position of the fast cav unit.

Now if you measure in the easy way that people now measure fast cav movement you would measure straight from each X to Y. But I think this is wrong as you have to measure via the gap. the reforms to squeeze through this gap is free, but you still have to measure the distance moved by the models.

Who can point me to where I am wrong?

Atrahasis
27-03-2008, 14:23
I think everyone would measure the curved distance through the gap rather than a straight line.

Festus
27-03-2008, 14:26
Hi

Yes, I think so too.

You measure the way each individual model had to take. That is the easiest, most convenient way to do it.

And it is the way it is meant to be done, actually.

Festus

Chicago Slim
27-03-2008, 14:56
Festus has it, as usual...

The following is my own editorial, including a completely unsupported bit of speculation: The "measure each model start to finish" *feels* to me like the sort of compromise that might have come up as a result of a couple of designers, in the course of a "debugging" conversation: If you can reform an INFINITE number of times, then measuring the distance a model travels in order to reach its new position through each reform becomes unwieldy. Let's keep it simple, and just say that the big, important rule is that nobody goes more than double-pace, start-to-finish...

Atrahasis
27-03-2008, 14:58
Absolutely, the current convention of moving fast cav is not "by the book", but following the rules to the letter in this instance just makes moving fast cavalry a 2 hour chore.

Sterling
27-03-2008, 15:00
my original response was not directed at the original question, which has been answered by the rules of the game in the BRB. I was addressing a couple misconceptions on page 1.

Your question has been answered. You do not measure thru the curve. fast cav reforms along the same center point into a straight line. move. reform again. This is perfectly legal.

Whether it is "right" in terms of believability or logic is open to debate, but it is right by the rules.

xragg
27-03-2008, 18:30
You getting into the fanatic slingshot territory, which fast calvarly could techniqually do also and much more effectively by doing it that way Sterling. Most people will agree that the fanatic slingshot is not RAI, but cant dispute it by RAW. Since GW wants to keep games semi-simple, loopholes like this will always pop up from time to time. Mearsuring each individual, fast calvary model is the best way to move the units fairly and quickly.

I know snaking doesnt exist, but it is basically how people measure fast calvary moves in the game today. I only stated it to demonstrate how fluid the fast calvary are meant to move, since they were the main benefactors of it when it did exist. Snakes were a pain to work out if charged and understandibly removed for that reason.

Sterling
27-03-2008, 20:01
possibly. in any friendly game, I just measure the fast cav to "close enough" position anyway. Of course, I have always taken my Ogres to tournaments so I never use fast cav in a setting that matters, and among the people I play...

well, lets just say we have some liberal house rules. like "If more than 75% of any roll come up 6's, take a shot" and "going to pick up food (or beer) for everyone is an automatic one-time reroll of any single or group of dice."

Basically, I am saying that RAW has it's place... and that place is tournament final tables. for friendly games, rules like "Stormboys scatter d6" every time they move" come into play. at a final table, I may insist on RAW if it if game-changing. any other time, just measure the straight distance and move on.

Atrahasis
27-03-2008, 20:16
I don't think you can limit it to final tables at a tournament, because getting to the final table is as important as being at it.

If one of you has got there by playing by the rules, and the other has got there by moving fast cav "almost right" and having his opponent take shots whenever he rolls a 6, then someone doesn't deserve to be there.

Mercules
27-03-2008, 20:45
I have to agree with Atrahasis and then add on to the point.

While I haven't played in a Warhammer tournament situation I have played in, and been a judge in other game system tournaments. People who play with the idea that this rule is good enough for play here and if it comes up in a tournament then I worry about it. Are often in for a surprise at those tournaments.

They learn the rules incorrectly and attempt to play by that rule. Then when someone calls them on it they are likely stuck with whatever play decisions or composition decisions they have made. This hurts them. It also often disrupts the tournament as the rules often have to be checked.

Your best bet is to play by the rules as if you were at a tournament. This doesn't mean don't be creative. Specific scenario rules or house rules are fine, just be sure they are always know that they are house rules and reiterate that fact and the correct way to play when you use them if you ever expect to attend a tournament.

I wish I had a dollar for every time I was judging something and one of the players, after checking the rules, said, "If I had known it worked that way, I wouldn't have used it."

Sterling
27-03-2008, 21:04
well, I do lose a lot... so it may not be a great idea to play my way if you are trying to win. On the other hand, I and my oponents have fun in almost every game played, so victory is moot.

xragg
28-03-2008, 00:10
If it means anything, I have been going to GW sponsored tourneys off and on for around 10 years and rarely do the judges ever get called over. Most people I have ever played are very nice and can discuss issues to resolve an answer. Only when players tend to do the obscure by bending the rules through a loophole, do the judges seem to get involved, who usually favor the more reasonable answer. I have also known judges to make mistakes, but I cant do anything about it, as they are the judges and final word for that tournament. Some people get mad cause they say RAW this, RAW that, but in the long run, the judges make the game fun and do a good job, not make the game broken.

warlord hack'a
28-03-2008, 14:03
so, back on topic, we agree that in my previos example you measure movement in a curve right? Now envision exactly the same situation, but now without enemy units. So the unit just reforms from one line into one column, then moves forward and then reforms back into a line again. The way currently everybody plays it is that they measure in a straight line now all of a sudden, where it just seconds ago was logical to move in a curve..

This is my point: when reforming more than once, measuring the distance the models move to get into the newly reformed formation is needed. E.g. 9 wolves nose to tail in one line (so formation is one file with 9 ranks) can not reform into 1 rank 9 files ('normal formation'), move 18" forward and then reform back into the nose to tail line again. Simply because moving from nose-tail to normal and from normal to nose tail takes movement (4.5 inch per reform to be precise). So when doing this manouver instead of moving 18" forward they can move 9" forward, that's half the distance!

So in short, people mvoe fast cav too easily and although, as Arthrasis says, you must be aware that it does not become too much work to corrently move them, some effort must at least me made.

By the way, in 99% of the cases the fast cav will reform only once during a movement phase and then measuring in a more relaxed fashion is the easiest way and in most cases accurate enough.

Atrahasis
28-03-2008, 15:10
I think the best way to think of it is that when not charging, fast cavalry move like single models but must begin and end their move in a legal ranked formation.

Festus
28-03-2008, 15:14
Hi

I think the best way to think of it is that when not charging, fast cavalry move like single models but must begin and end their move in a legal ranked formation.
Fully agreed!

Festus

warlord hack'a
28-03-2008, 16:16
so in that case you could move wolves 18 inch and begin and end in a conga-line, a very annoying move to pull against some opponents. This is not the way it is meant to be played I think. And I have three units of fast cav so I do not have any problems with actually moving them this easily, it is just not supported by the rules..

Festus
28-03-2008, 16:49
Hi

of course you can begin and end in a congaline. Where is the problem with that?

Just make sure that no Wolf moved more than 18" (or 9" if marchblocked) and it is all fine and within the rules - as written and as intended ... and as understood.

Festus

Mercules
28-03-2008, 16:51
...it is just not supported by the rules..

It is just not supported by -your- interpretation of the rules.

Atrahasis
28-03-2008, 16:54
It is just not supported by -your- interpretation of the rules.

What hack'a says is not an interpretation - it's cold, hard, fact.

The way it is played is an interpretation, ie the rules have been adjusted to work more smoothly.

Play it the way everyone does, it's the easiest way. Don't kid yourself that it's in any way supported by the rules.

Festus
28-03-2008, 16:57
What hack'a says is not an interpretation - it's cold, hard, fact.
It were, if it was in any way practical. It is not practical, so we have to rely on what is. And then there was this fast cav article in WD (granted for 6th IIRC, but the rules have not changed since then) to tell us from the horse's mouth how we are supposed to do things.

Festus

Mercules
28-03-2008, 17:27
What hack'a says is not an interpretation - it's cold, hard, fact. No, cold hard fact is what is written. How we put what is written into practice is interpretation, as you said yourself, and his way of moving is a different interpretation of the same facts.

The way it is played is an interpretation, ie the rules have been adjusted to work more smoothly.

Play it the way everyone does, it's the easiest way. Don't kid yourself that it's in any way supported by the rules.

Hack'a is stating that turning models is eating up movement.

"Unless it charges, a fast cavalry unit can reform as many times as you wish during its movement phase without incurring any penalties to its move distance."

This can easily be interpreted to mean that a unit can go from a conga line single file 9 ranks to 5 files and 1+ ranks for NO movement cost.

The kicker is that:
"Remember that no model in the fast cavalry unit can move more than double its maximum move distance despite reforming."

So that means that while it doesn't count movement while reforming, it can not move -in total- more than M*2 away from where it started. Again... reforming doesn't penalize(subtract) movement but no model can move from point A to a point B that is beyond their M*2.

meta-ridley
28-03-2008, 17:35
Move the unit like you place deep striking units on the table. Move one model in teh unit to where you want the unit to move. He can only move 2xM. You then simply form up the rest of the unit around him.

Stop trying to over complicate things by doing things like measuring each individual model. That's just taking it far to literally and seriously.

Keep it simple, that way it stays more fun and about tactics rather than about the rules. That's what the game is supposed to be about. Following the rules to the letter is boring.

Mercules
28-03-2008, 17:47
Keep it simple, that way it stays more fun and about tactics rather than about the rules. That's what the game is supposed to be about. Following the rules to the letter is boring.

No, you follow the rules as best you can. That way you don't have two people playing in two different "simple and more fun" ways that contradict and thus mess up their strategy, create rules discussions during the game, and disrupt the fun of actually playing. The rules exist to give the game a framework and the game is more fun if everyone understands and uses the same framework. :)

Festus
28-03-2008, 19:34
Hi
quote=meta-ridley;2476496]Move the unit like you place deep striking units on the table. Move one model in teh unit to where you want the unit to move. He can only move 2xM. You then simply form up the rest of the unit around him.[/quote]
That will not work very well, as then a lot of the troopers can indeed move A LOT more than their Mx2: With the size of the cavalry base (nearly 1" x 2"), you could pull of some veeerrry long moves in this way.

The important point to remember is, that no model may move more than its Mx2 (or just its M if marchblocked). If necessary, establish the way on which the model moves - but this will only rarely be necessary.
Then you cannot go far wrong.

Festus

Nurgling Chieftain
28-03-2008, 20:10
By the way, in 99% of the cases the fast cav will reform only once during a movement phase and then measuring in a more relaxed fashion is the easiest way and in most cases accurate enough.No, your interpretation breaks the single reform just as much as it breaks the multiple reform. Measure it. The simple example in the book is impossible in your system - which means you're wrong.

warlord hack'a
29-03-2008, 10:05
no the simple example in the book is not impossible at all as the whole fast cav unit moves has plenty of move to basically wheel a bit, move forward, wheel more and then reform.

And as for interpreting the rules, I am not saying that my interpretation is right, I just want to let people think about what "without incurring any penalties to its move distance" means: does it mean that the distance models move to maintain the reformed formation are free (the way it is currently played), or does it mean that reforming does not give the usual penalty of not being able to move at all, but you still have to measure the actual distance the models have to move. As stated in my earlier example the difference can be huge in some cases (though not as much as I described as I forgot to take into account the base size of the farthers moving model).

Anyway, everybody plays it in the ' relaxed' version which indeed is by far the fastest and easiest. Just remember that the rules, in my opinion, are not clear on this subject as it is not clear what is meant by ' without incurring any penalties' (especially since measuring moved distance is not a PENALTY, a penalty is subtracting part of your movement allowance).

Which brings me to another case of easy versus hard play: picture the congaline of cav models, this line is 1 inch deep and 10 inch wide (so 5 models in the unit). Very tightly behind the center of this line (let's say 1/4 inch away) is a nomrla infantry unit.

Now according to the 'just measure 2*M from begin till end position' interpretation the fast cav unit can dash away from this position right towards the enemy (so they would need to reform into 5 wide, 1 rank facing towards the enemy and then move forward). But I would not allow that as the unit would have to reform, therefore, the middle model turns on the spot and the unit becomes not 1 inch, but 2 inch deep. But there is no space for this as there is a friendly unit at 1/4 inch of the original line and the space needed to make this turn is 1/2 inch..

Now once again this will not happen very often but it just goes to illustrate how many manouvers all of a sudden are legal for fast cav but not for other units pulling the same manouver (e.g. a normal cav unit that reforms). And when you think about staying more than 1 inch away from the enemy then you will see how important it actually is to measure your fast cav more strictly..