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STORM BRINGER
27-03-2008, 13:18
Dark Heresy RP talks about Slower Than Light (STL) and Faster than Light (I.e. Warp travel) Travel but does not specify the speeds achieved and I have not seen anything in BFG either.

I've seen some people speculate that STL travel could be 0.5 to 0.75 of light speed (does that sound right??) but Warp Travel seems very random, are there any parametres on:
A) How much distance Warp craft can cover in real time?
B) How time the crew/passengers experience on the same journey whilst in the Warp?

Any thoughts or advice gratefully received!

jibbajabbawocky
27-03-2008, 13:25
Dark Heresy RP talks about Slower Than Light (STL) and Faster than Light (I.e. Warp travel) Travel but does not specify the speeds achieved and I have not seen anything in BFG either.

I've seen some people speculate that STL travel could be 0.5 to 0.75 of light speed (does that sound right??) but Warp Travel seems very random, are there any parametres on:
A) How much distance Warp craft can cover in real time?
B) How time the crew/passengers experience on the same journey whilst in the Warp?

Any thoughts or advice gratefully received!

A) It depends on how the Warp is that moment. There are some well traveled routes where you can estimate to a fine degree how long it takes to get there, but going off these routes changes everything.

B) Usually it's pretty much the same. You spend a week in the Warp, about a week has gone by in the real universe. The only problem is that there is no galaxy wide calender to base it all on, so one system might think it's January, and another might think it's August. However, the Warp being what it is, Time isn't always so absolute.

To best answer your question: It takes as much time as it's needed for the Plot. :)

Burnthem
27-03-2008, 13:28
It can take up to a year to travel across the Imperium, depending on warp conditions. Warp travel is much like sea travel, good weather with the wind behind you and you'll fly along, try going headlong into a storm and you'll struggle!

Alot also depends on the type of ship and the skill of the ships Navigator (If it has one!).

chris.seraphim
27-03-2008, 14:13
There is some fluff in the old (2nd Ed I think) source books where they talkabout how Holy Terra and the Imperial Palace are the end point of countless millions of pilgrimages -
the important line is however...
'some of these pilgrims are finishing the journey started by their forebears'
or words to that effect - meaning that on low level, civilian ships etc. it can take more than a generation to cross the Imperium.

I can also think of references to calls for help being sent from isolated planets, and it is a generation before the military response gets there.
----------------------------------
Remember, even in the Star Trek universe, at maximum speed (which is something like 36 times light speed) it would take Voyagar 70 years to get back to the Federation from JUST the other side of the galaxy.
-----------------
Of course, the elite ships of the Imperial Navy, the Astartes etc. are probably a damned sight faster than that - I think a good analogy is to sailing on the sea - civilian ships are like rowboats, whereas bigger military or administratum ships are like the QE2 etc. Of course the difference is more in your Navigator and the life support capacity of the ship, as opposed to the power of the engines.

Also in the HH books, they talk about warp translation taking 'weeks and months' in limbo, and you'd assume that the Crusade proceeded to the next available system, rather than jumping randomly about the galaxy - so even system to sytem jumps take weeks even in the fastest ships....

Heres my opinion in short -

Slower than light -
Will be unbealievably fast, but still laughably slow compared to Light Speed, less than 0.1 of light speed - cause its JUST NOT FEASIBLE! :evilgrin:

Faster than light -
well, in interstellar travel, time is kind of relative (see Einstein) BUT, im assuming that depending on the warp, you can beat light speed by a significant factor.

Using the time frame from the HH books (weeks-months to reach a neighbouring system) I figure...

Sol system to Alpha Centauri (our nearest system) is about 4.37 light years, so say the average distance to a useful system (remember probably 90% of systems have nothing usable - or habitable) would be say, 20 light years.

Say that 20 light years (or 1040 light weeks) takes four weeks tro translate in the warp (sound reasonable?)

That puts the speed of Imperium military ships at around 260 times the speed of light.

At that RIDICULOUS speed, it would take a little over 6 days to reach Alpha Centauri from Terra.

Just some silly figures im throwing out, but it sounds feasible to me.

-------
done some more sums...

the milky way is app. 100'000 light years across, so at top speed, a MILITARY class ship would take 384.6 years to cross the Imperium NOT accounting for the tides of the warp, and doing so IN A STRAIGHT LINE (this makes me think that maybe the warp can get you going even faster, depending on the favour of the Gods, the skill of your Navigator, and blind bleeding luck...)

I think you can assume that for most of the time, ships (especially merchants and transports) will not travel in a straight line, but dot from system to system - making it an even longer trip for pilgrims or your average person to get anywhere far inside their own lifetime.

Basically the galaxy is HUGE beyond your understanding (or mine) as these figures are hard for mere mortals to comprehend - but put it this way - if the Tyranids eliminate the Eastern fringe, it'd be almost FOUR HUNDRED YEARS before reinforcments from Ultima Macharia could get there. It almost makes you appreciate the Administratum.....almost.

Burnthem
27-03-2008, 17:46
Im sure that there is map in a GW book somewhere, possibly the 3ed Rulebook, that shows a map of the galaxy and the approximate time it take to get to various places from Terra.

IIRC you can get from Terra to halfway across the Imperium in about 8-9 months, which seems like a good figure to me. Remember that the Great Crusade lasted 300 years, assuming that alot of that time was spent sitting still fighting wars and not traveling, that means that getting from system to system is pretty fast.

This thread here has quite a few bits about the speed of the Imperiums ships, as well as some interesting reading on a few other things - http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122342&highlight=other+galaxies

heretics bane
27-03-2008, 17:51
There is some fluff in the old (2nd Ed I think) source books where they talkabout how Holy Terra and the Imperial Palace are the end point of countless millions of pilgrimages -
the important line is however...
'some of these pilgrims are finishing the journey started by their forebears'
or words to that effect - meaning that on low level, civilian ships etc. it can take more than a generation to cross the Imperium .

But they would have stopped at the countless holy worlds/shrine through out the imperium on the way there?

depends on ship and warp conditions, in one of the new HH Loken says something like "hed be shipped back to terra on a 44month voyage" about a rememberancer in trouble, but the imperium was just being set up so worlds where not as safe as they are now.

Gussy
27-03-2008, 17:52
In the book Eisenstien, the Phalanx was traveling in the solar system (not warp) at 3/4 the speed of light.

DuckBilly
27-03-2008, 17:56
i hope someone can back me up on this because i dont know where I read it... it must have been 2nd or 3rd ed rulebook... i have read that it actually takes a shorter time to get FURTHER away than to a closer destination. i think i get this from the map that Burnthem refers to, but either way, it was years ago now. anyone else remember anything like this?

i really like this thread by the way

BrotherAdso
27-03-2008, 18:24
I think a tremendous amount of 40k travel is dependent on the interaction between the ship type and the currents of the warp. Civilian vessels have less powerful warp matrices, less adept and weaker Navigators, and fewer navigation aids. They are slower in good conditions and much less able to escape warp difficulties when they occur. Military vessels can be a good sight faster in good conditions, but MUCH more importantly, can escape or plow through difficulties like civilian ships cannot -- making their travel times over long distances less unpredictable.

Under lightspeed, the variety in the Imperium is paramount, but I imagine that, say, a Cobra could attain between .3 and .5c. Anything more and you start encountering issues with time dialation, radiant energy coming off the ship, and sheer power required. A small civilian ship with less mass to accelerate could do .75c or so, as a previous poster mentioned. My main problem with this is that in the fiction, tiny fighters never seem to reach near-relativistic speeds....maybe because combat speeds for ships are much less than their maximum sustained sublight speeds?

Adso

Avaron
27-03-2008, 18:47
the short answer is the warp is a mess. sometimes ships never get there other times it takes a long time and on rare occasions a ship has arived before it left. Time and space are rather meaningless in the warp.

MrBigMr
27-03-2008, 20:22
It would seem the answer is "as long as the story needs it to last/as fast as the story needs it to go."
Warp is a tricky place where ships arrive before even leaving or disappear for centuries with the crew not realising it.

Ashnari Doomsong
27-03-2008, 20:55
Whatever the Warp feels like. It could place your ship fifteen centuries after you left for ***** and giggles, or it could dump you somewhere completely different from where you want to be. Or, it could send you around at pretty much the same time as you left.
Planning voyages is not fun for your average 40ker.

Varath- Lord Impaler
27-03-2008, 21:12
But dont forget we have examples (such as the new Ork Codex) where warp travel as actually allowed an Ork attack to arrive shortly before leaving.

Does this mean that with a top notch navigator and on a very very good day you could literally cross the Imperium in a blink of an eye?

Ashnari Doomsong
27-03-2008, 21:48
Why not? We're dealing with raw Chaos here, after all...

Slaaneshi Slave
27-03-2008, 22:03
There are places in the webway where time stands still, and the Eldar were discovering how to travel through time during The Fall, so anything is possible with the Warp.

Burnthem
27-03-2008, 22:39
The occurences of arriving before leaving/spending years lost in the warp are relatively rare. They do happen but its far from a common thing.

Archangel_Ruined
27-03-2008, 22:39
There is also a massive 40k distinction between FTL travel and warp travel. The warp isn't a part of the material plane, so time-space don't apply in the same way, which accounts for some fleets arriving at their destination incredibly quickly, traveling at speeds far greater than c, but never actually travelling at those velocities, and other ships can arrive hundreds of years late, but this time has not elapsed for the crew. The only 40k race capable of FTL, as far as I recall, are necrons, and that's because they can't use the warp at all.

Iracundus
27-03-2008, 23:44
There is a rough gauge from BFG. Andy Chambers said the scale was approximately 1cm = 1,000 km and 1 turn as telescoping from 15 minutes at long ranges to about 1-2 minutes at close range.

Going by that as data, we have a Cobra cruising at 30cm normally with a potential theoretical maximum of 54cm if it gets all 6's on All Ahead Full special orders. That equates to about 3,600 km/minute or 1km/sec.

Burnthem
28-03-2008, 00:30
The scales for BFg were meant to add a touch of scale to the game and models, not taken as canon for ship speeds or capabilities.

chaoshopeful
28-03-2008, 03:42
It takes... Time
There is a story some where, about an ork that gets on a space hulk, travels, and gets off the space hulk.When he gets off, he finds an earlier version of him self, who he kills, because the other self has his gun.
Mean while Draco was on a ship long enough for people to forget who he was.




Dark Heresy RP talks about Slower Than Light (STL) and Faster than Light (I.e. Warp travel) Travel but does not specify the speeds achieved and I have not seen anything in BFG either.

I've seen some people speculate that STL travel could be 0.5 to 0.75 of light speed (does that sound right??) but Warp Travel seems very random, are there any parametres on:
A) How much distance Warp craft can cover in real time?
B) How time the crew/passengers experience on the same journey whilst in the Warp?

Any thoughts or advice gratefully received!

icegreentea
28-03-2008, 04:28
One thing to keep in mind with sub light speed is that once you get to a significant fraction of c (say greater than 0.75c) you run into a) diminishing return from the engines, since as you travel faster, the more energy you have, which in turn makes you heavier, taking even more energy to move, and b) in a combat situation, the time dilation the ship undergoes basically means all of its reactions are going to appear 'slow'. Probably not a good thing.

Iracundus
28-03-2008, 07:45
The scales for BFg were meant to add a touch of scale to the game and models, not taken as canon for ship speeds or capabilities.

That makes no sense. Given that the BFG rulebook and fluff is official GW background, Andy Chambers was the chief designer, and he gave actual numbers even if approximate, we do have a canon for for ship speeds, capabilities, and sizes. It is no different from GW data on a Land Raider's dimensions.


As an addition to the original calculations, if one assumes the Cobra example at the smaller time scale of 1 turn = 1 or 2 minutes, we have an upper limit of 900km/sec. The other possible limiting factor on practical battle speed is the ability of the ship's maneuvering thrusters to turn the ship onto a new heading.

STORM BRINGER
28-03-2008, 09:14
Thanks for all the posts so far, very helpful.

I did raise a related topic elsewhere (see link: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=130886&hl= ) which strayed into the subject of 40k spacecraft speed and I'm sure someone mentioned somewhere something about an inquisitorial strikeforce arriving 500 years late to a Heretical uprising due to delays in their Warp travel and slaughtering the pious victors!!!

It seems there isn't many published guidelines on stellar distances or speeds, just bits and pieces in books and stories. I would be grateful if anyone has any further guidance to add though?

Burnthem
28-03-2008, 09:23
That makes no sense. Given that the BFG rulebook and fluff is official GW background, Andy Chambers was the chief designer, and he gave actual numbers even if approximate, we do have a canon for for ship speeds, capabilities, and sizes. It is no different from GW data on a Land Raider's dimensions.


As an addition to the original calculations, if one assumes the Cobra example at the smaller time scale of 1 turn = 1 or 2 minutes, we have an upper limit of 900km/sec. The other possible limiting factor on practical battle speed is the ability of the ship's maneuvering thrusters to turn the ship onto a new heading.

I can see where your coming from, but you have to bear in mind that BFG isn't played on any sort of scale, as in the 4'X4' board can represent either a tiny peice of space around a moon or station, or it can represent an entire solar system. So Ship movement and turning rates are entirely relative.

Iracundus
28-03-2008, 09:33
Actually BFG can't be played to represent just any sort of scale, not if you actually look at the data that exists for BFG. If you look at the section on terrain, particularly the suggested size for planets, including Earth-like rocky planets, gives a clear indication of the approximate spatial scale involved. The BFG book also clearly says ship bases represent the immediate close range area around the ship, "no more than a few thousand kilometers", which again sets limits on the upper and lower ends of the scale.

Then once again there is the simple fact that the chief designer when asked what the scale was said the scale is such and such. Even if it is a guide rather than a true "accurate" hard and fixed scale, it is still a scale that allows for ballpark computing of the capabilities of 40K starships.

Sojourner
28-03-2008, 09:37
There is no theoretical maximum to sublight speed in vacuum other than infinitesimally belowc provided you keep exerting a reaction force. The problem with that is that a ship would have to carry enough fuel to run the engines for an arbitrarily long amount of time. So in that case you could only get to a cruising speed equivalent to the amount of energy it is possible to extract from your whole fuel supply. The amount of energy in fusable hydrogen is vast; antimatter is monstrous. A walnut of antimatter would blow a large hole in a country were it allowed to escape. Determining exactly how fast a ship could be propelled on a given fuel load is an integral equation which I can't be bothered to work out at the moment, since you're offloading fuel simultaneously as you're accelerating the remaining mass. Then you have the problem that when you reach your destination you're going too fast to do anything.

As for warp travel? Psch, who knows. It's not a 'speed' as such since the ship isn't going through the intervening space. In fact, as far as the warp is concerned, the concept of 'intervening space' isn't clearly defined. You could probably define an equivalent quantity called the Equivalent Displacement Rate or something equally fatuous, by computing the average time to go from one stationary observation point to another.

STORM BRINGER
28-03-2008, 13:03
My earlier post with link seems to have been disallowed/lost?

Anyway, I have seen a scaled imperium galactic map that would suggest 10,000 light years from Holy Terra to the Eye of Terror and 40,000 light years from Terra to Maccragge. I suspect its reasonable to assume the Imperium galaxy is similar in size to our Milkway i.e. 100,000 light years in diamater as mentioned earlier. So I reckon the earlier estimate of Warp travel achieving up to 260 times the speed of light is probably a good guesstimate based on some 40k literature.

However, I have also seen someone mention an inquisitorial strikeforce turning up 500 years late out of the Warp to crush a heretical uprising, so I suspect 260 times the speed of light is exceptionally high. Especially as Star Trek's fluff apparantly only suggests 36 times light speed and there is a massive drop from Warp Travel speeds to STL travel of 0.5 to 0.75 discussed. Finally, BFG only suggests 0.0000016 of Light Speed (0.5km/second combat speed versus c.300,000 km per second light speed) which again is a long way from 260 times light speed!!

Anyway, thanks for all the help so far. Any further nuggets of information would be gratefully received?!!

Jimbobjeff
28-03-2008, 15:34
I suspect its reasonable to assume the Imperium galaxy is similar in size to our Milkway

The Imperium galaxy is our Milky way....

Burnthem
28-03-2008, 16:48
Even if it is a guide rather than a true "accurate" hard and fixed scale, it is still a scale that allows for ballpark computing of the capabilities of 40K starships.

Ok, i see what you mean. I agree that it can be used to get 'ballpark' figures, i just dont think that we can accurately judge a ships capabilities on game stats, much like you can't judge a Marines abilites from his in-game stats due to game balancing and all that.

Rough figures, yes. Accurate capabilites, no.

Archangel_Ruined
29-03-2008, 11:29
I wouldn't say BFG can be used for any kind of scale inferences, look at the size of the planets compared to the ships, that's all I'm saying. It's an interesting debate though, but I wouldn't stray too far into logic and reason, there'll always be an element of nonesensical "It's the future and it's magic" to it.

Iracundus
29-03-2008, 12:34
If you took the time to read the first few pages of the BFG rulebook, it explicitly says the ship models are not in scale with the terrain. Nobody is making any inferences by comparison with the ship models. However, Andy Chambers did give the spatial scale of the board and from that, the scale of the planets, and the ship bases.

Burnthem
29-03-2008, 13:48
I have read the BFG rulebook, many times in fact, and yes it is mentioned that, for example, the circular base on a ship represent a few thousand kilometres around the ship.

But the battlefield for BFG is always changing from game to game. For example, a Cobra can move 30cm on a board that represents an entire solar system, therefore giving the impression of an immense sub-light speed. This exact same Cobra will also move 30cm on a board that represents close orbit of a planet, or a small asteroid field, hence giving the impression of a slower speed. Using ships movement values is useless in determining fluff figures as there is no definitive scale to measure them against.

See where i'm coming from?

Iracundus
29-03-2008, 14:40
No, because on p.45 it stipulates concretely how to represent various sized planets. An approximately Venus or Earth sized planet at 16-25cm in diameter. That is why a 4x4 board representing a solar system would be at incorrect scale if the planets were not at within their appoximate diameter ranges and orbital separations. BFG can't be played at any arbitrary scale because there are stated upper and lower bounds for known objects. If a rocky planet within Earth's ballpark range is 16-25cm in diameter, and Andy Chambers stated the spatial scale is approximately 1cm = 1,000 km and time scale is 1 turn = 1-15 minutes, we have BFG's scale right there from which the battle speeds of spacecraft can be ballparked.

Low orbital maps are as obvious from their naming, a zoomed in approach and a different viewing compared to the standard board map. Using them to try and argue scale or lack of scale is as pointless as trying to compare ship models to terrain, when it is explicit that they are not at the same scale.

There is official GW data on BFG approximate capabilities and scales. Trying to argue or ignore this official data is tantamount to trying to argue a Land Raider is the size of a Titan or man sized because of the imprecise nature of 40K scale. Though the exact measurements of scale may have a certain fuzziness to it and also from the changing exact details of model and GW vehicle data, the general size and scale of 40K vehicles and models is fixed within a certain range, and the same holds true for 40K.

Archangel_Ruined
29-03-2008, 15:57
I think you're trying to infer measurements from an ever changing scale, and as such it isn't going to work. I can talk real scale with you, in which case you'd only get one planet on a 4x4 board, and then it would still be golf ball sized. Space is vast and the scales in the game make no sense whatsoever, the terrain and ships are just spatial representations. This isn't an attack on you in any way, it's just a fact that despite what the rulebook says, and yes I do own one, it is never going to actually work like that. I think that the best estimates of speeds we'll get are from the fluff, with ships travelling within system within certain time scales, rather than trying to infer them from a game mechanic that never had the remotest chance of correctly representing 4D space and the distances involved.

Burnthem
29-03-2008, 19:19
I think you're trying to infer measurements from an ever changing scale, and as such it isn't going to work. I can talk real scale with you, in which case you'd only get one planet on a 4x4 board, and then it would still be golf ball sized. Space is vast and the scales in the game make no sense whatsoever, the terrain and ships are just spatial representations. This isn't an attack on you in any way, it's just a fact that despite what the rulebook says, and yes I do own one, it is never going to actually work like that. I think that the best estimates of speeds we'll get are from the fluff, with ships travelling within system within certain time scales, rather than trying to infer them from a game mechanic that never had the remotest chance of correctly representing 4D space and the distances involved.

QFT.

The rules are an abstract interpretation of the fluff to enable games to be played, alot of the rules simply don't make sense, as do the ships designs etc etc. Play it. Enjoy it. Just dont let gameplay elements rule your view of the fluff.

Iracundus
30-03-2008, 02:43
I think you're trying to infer measurements from an ever changing scale, and as such it isn't going to work. I can talk real scale with you, in which case you'd only get one planet on a 4x4 board, and then it would still be golf ball sized.

That is where you are incorrect and wrong. There is no ever changing scale because the GW designer stated the scale already in black and white: 16-25cm for rocky sized planets such as Mars, Venus or Earth, and 1cm = 1,000 km approximately. That is already a scale. The only "ever changing scale" is that made up by people choosing to ignore the given scale. On a standard 4x4 board you will only get one planet on the board due to the scale of separation between planets, that is correct. However it won't be golf ball sized precisely because in the rulebook it GIVES the scale for planets. Once again it's players not reading or deliberately ignoring what is stated, and then making up their own stuff, not because BFG has no scale. This is no different from people throwing out GW's dimensions for a Land Raider and choosing to say a Land Raider is 10x as big as its stated size "because there is no data." Actually, just like in BFG, there is.

Addendum:



Scale in Battlefleet Gothic
by Andy Chambers

I'm not sure if I've talked about scale before but here goes anyway. BFG works around an approximate scale of 1cm=1000KM for the planets and other tabletop features. Obviously this means the ship models are massively out of scale, an Imperial cruiser is NOT 9000KM+ long! The scale is basically there as a rule of thumb and I didn't worry about it too much when it came down to setting weapon ranges, ship speeds and so on. These were all done to create the right impression of distance on the tabletop. For example 60cm 'feels' like a long way and 30cm doesn't, the weapon ranges aren't defined by some pseudo-science calaculation of the energy dissipation rate of lasers (fairly obviously ) but to create an interaction between the (massively out of scale) models on the tabletop.

The more interesting question is perhaps how long is a turn, and that one I don't know the answer too - I'd guess somewhere between 15 minutes and an hour (quite likely telescoping so that at long range a turn is an hour but by the time you're within 15 cm its 15 minutes). This would make an attack craft capable of moving 30cm per ordnance phase capable of doing approximately 30-120,000 km/h. I've got no idea if this is realistic for starfighter speeds, or unfeasibly fast, incredibly slow or what , perhaps someone on the list could enlighten us all on this front (don't just tell us what it says it the Star Wars technical manual though!)

So I stand corrected as well. The time scale is 15 minutes to 1 hour. So by that, the aforementioned Cobra at 30cm would be at a maximum battle speed of 2,000 km/min or 33.33 km/sec, with the lower limit at 8.33 km/sec. While Andy Chambers does make the point that this scale isn't a hard calculated to the nearest meter scale, it is nonetheless a scale, and the fixed known objects like planets also go according to this.

DapperAnarchist
30-03-2008, 16:14
Under the intuitive guidance of the navigator, a ship is able to traverse distances of tens of thousands of light years in a single jump. Percieved journey time is 1-4 days per thousand light years, equivalent to 1-6 months of real time. Even so, a journey from one edge of the galaxy to the other would take between 85 and 510 months of real time.

I also remember a more detail table of percieved/real time differences, but for the life of me can't find it...:(

Goq Gar
30-03-2008, 16:23
Well, most of their time (on long flights) is spent in the warp, so time sort of... doesn't work like it normally does. They could be lost for centuries or show up a week before they left exactly where they started if things aren't kept in check

Norminator
30-03-2008, 16:42
Well, most of their time (on long flights) is spent in the warp, so time sort of... doesn't work like it normally does. They could be lost for centuries or show up a week before they left exactly where they started if things aren't kept in check

The odd thing about that is it's something so often quoted in fluff, alongside the dangers of Warp travel such as being destroyed, but I can't think of a single Black Library book or indeed Codex account (other than the Legion of the Damned) where it's actually happened.

The_Outsider
30-03-2008, 17:04
Necrons use inertia-less drives which (iirc) gives them near infinite acceleration - the problem with this is what happens when you hit something at such incrediable speeds. Even in the vastness of space if you go fast enough you will be unable to avoid large stellar bodies (i.e asteroids, planets etc).


Warp travel itself has no relation to the speed of light (or travelling at) within itself. The comparison only matters when you compare the the time it takes a ship to get from A to B and working out average speed.

Burnthem
30-03-2008, 18:27
Andy Chambers- "The scale is basically there as a rule of thumb and I didn't worry about it too much when it came down to setting weapon ranges, ship speeds and so on. These were all done to create the right impression of distance on the tabletop."

I rest my case.

The rules are not an accurate representation of the fluff capabilites of a ship, they're simply not. They in no way represent a 4D combat environment, nor have much of a grounding in basic physics.

malika
30-03-2008, 18:49
You might want to check out these discussions on Warp travel:
[Warp] Changing the Warp Travel Times... (http://anargo-sector.net/community/index.php/topic,32.0.html)

[Imperial Technology] Travel times through the Warp (http://anargo-sector.net/newforum/viewtopic.php?t=428) (archived thread)

[Galaxy][Warp] Changing the warp travel times... (http://anargo-sector.net/newforum/viewtopic.php?t=534) (archived thread)

STORM BRINGER
30-03-2008, 18:57
The Imperium galaxy is our Milky way....

I'm sure that was the template for GW when they created the imperium but beyond the use of our Solar System I'm not sure its that accurate and I imagine anyone with more than a passing interest in astronomy would be able to find plenty of inaccuracies.

Personally, I like to think of the Imperium as an "alternate version" of our Milkway Galaxy but frankly I'm sure a good GM can make it work for them any which way. However, one good point for relating the Imperium to the Milkyway is that it allows us to fix Earth/Holy Terra's Sun at 26,000 light years (+/- 1,400 LY depending on orbital position of the Solar system around the Galactic Centre(Super massive black hole)/ Ultima Segmentum), which is great for scaling GW's galactic map of the Imperium.

The challenging question of Warp travel "speeds" seems to be briefly addressed on P122 of BBB, where it refers to a journey of centuries at "normal" speeds being completed via Warp Travel in months (i.e. 100years at sub-light speed travels the same distance as 1 month Warp Travel). Of course this is open to massive interpretation, but if we assumed Slower than Light Travel (SLT) to be 0.5 of Light Speed (LS) and 1 century SLT to equal 1 month in warp travel in terms of distance covered then: 100 years @ 0.5 LS = 50 light years travelled "normally" and Warp Travel could do this same distance in 1 month. Put another way, in one earth/terra standard year of Warp Travel you are covering 600 light years (50 * 12) e.g travelling at a factor of 600 times the speed of light!!!

I have to say that 600 times the speed of light does seem a little unbelievable (especially since I've already said a previous estimate of 260 times light speed was high- whoops!!) as you could theoretically cross from one side of the Imperial Galaxy (c100,000 light years) in 167 years using the Warp! Alternatively, you could cross a sector (200 light years according to BFG) in 4 months.

I think when I run DH I'll probably consider 600 times light speed to be achievable only by expectional craft in exceptional Warp conditions. Otherwise, our massive galaxy becomes way too accessible. One last thing, I have noted in BFG that the Astronomican pulses out to 70,000 light years, which given Terra is not the centre of the Galaxy and assuming the galactic diameter is 100,000 light years means there's still a sizeable portion of just the Imperial Galaxy for ships to become hopelessly lost in.....

Norminator
30-03-2008, 19:04
I have to say that 600 times the speed of light does seem a little unbelievable (especially since I've already said a previous estimate of 260 times light speed was high- whoops!!) as you could theoretically cross from one side of the Imperial Galaxy (c100,000 light years) in 167 years using the Warp! Alternatively, you could cross a sector (200 light years according to BFG) in 4 months.

One thing to remember is that with big events like the Eye of Terror, forces on the other side of the galaxy (i.e. Ultramarines in the Eastern sector) got there with, at most, a few years warning. Also think of the Heresy, when the Ultramarines at Calth got from there to Terra in a few months, right from the East of the Galaxy to the Western spiral arm.

tech adept
30-03-2008, 19:12
I don't know if anyone has said this earlier in the thread (sorry only skimmed through the thread) but wouldn't the current theoretical limit for fusion rockets be a good subsitute (1 million meters per second or 0.003c).

Also I thought that necrons phased out into pocket dimensions (like they do when attacking with phase wepons) when they go FTL meaning they would pass right through anything (including radar waves) in the way and that they only phase back because they can't attack (power consumtion or something)

STORM BRINGER
30-03-2008, 19:24
You might want to check out these discussions on Warp travel:
[Warp] Changing the Warp Travel Times... (http://anargo-sector.net/community/index.php/topic,32.0.html)

[Imperial Technology] Travel times through the Warp (http://anargo-sector.net/newforum/viewtopic.php?t=428) (archived thread)

[Galaxy][Warp] Changing the warp travel times... (http://anargo-sector.net/newforum/viewtopic.php?t=534) (archived thread)

Thanks Malika, very interesting indeed!

Setting aside the Real time versus time experience on-board the Warp vessel (i.e. time dilation) debate, I'm interested to see the plotted Min. and Max. distances reproduced in the graph on the 7th reply post in the first thread you provided.

The graph's axis are not easy to accurately read but looking at the fourth plot the minimum time to cover 5,000 light years in the warp appears to be around 120 days (i.e. 4 months) which effectively means you are travelling at a factor of 15,000 times the speed of light!!!!!! This is against the maximum time to cover 5,000 light years in the Warp, which appears to be 1,100 days (i.e. c.3years) giving an equivalent speed of 1667 times the speed of light (still unbelievably fast!).

Malika, these speeds are far beyond what I expected have I interpretated the graph correctly/got my maths right??

superknijn
30-03-2008, 19:25
Let's not forget that it's the Warp. Chaos.
With alot of luck, you'd arrive at the same time the request for aid was sent. With significantly luck, you'd bump into Istaan when they firebombed-gassed-obliterated it.

Burnthem
30-03-2008, 19:47
I have to say that 600 times the speed of light does seem a little unbelievable (especially since I've already said a previous estimate of 260 times light speed was high- whoops!!) as you could theoretically cross from one side of the Imperial Galaxy (c100,000 light years) in 167 years using the Warp! Alternatively, you could cross a sector (200 light years according to BFG) in 4 months

Actually this is entirely believable, many instances in the fluff, for example the Horus Heresy series, has characters flitting about the galaxy to and from fleets and planets. This is usually noted as having taken weeks/months to do, and not years. As i said before, the Great Crusade reconquered a vast portion of the galaxy in only 300 years, if you then include the time taken to actually fight into that timeframe you must conclude that Warp travel is pretty fast!

Just remember that this fiction written for a table top wargame, it doesnt have to have a grounding in RL Astrophysics.

Perfect Organism
30-03-2008, 21:37
I don't know if anyone has said this earlier in the thread (sorry only skimmed through the thread) but wouldn't the current theoretical limit for fusion rockets be a good subsitute (1 million meters per second or 0.003c).
Surely the theoretical speed limit of a fusion rocket (or any rocket) is the proportion of reaction mass to payload you are carrying? Not that Imperial technology seems to worry too much about realistic physics anyway.

I do think that the sub-light speeds people are speculating about seem way too high. I never got the impression that 40k spaceships were able to zip across a solar system in a matter of minutes. In The Taros Campaign an in-system engagement between Imperial and Tau ships takes weeks to reach a conclusion.

Archangel_Ruined
30-03-2008, 21:43
I'd agree, as speed isn't really the issue there, more the actual area of space within a system. I wouldn't think any imperial capital ship is capable of too much above combat speed as they're warp capable and therefore engines capable of those speeds would be redundant. Besides, they could save the space and fit bigger guns. Escorts would probably be a fair bit faster, for patrol speeds, but nowhere need c speeds, as that would be entirely uselss for sweeping systems for pirates etc. and downright dangerous in combat.

Norminator
30-03-2008, 21:59
I do think that the sub-light speeds people are speculating about seem way too high. I never got the impression that 40k spaceships were able to zip across a solar system in a matter of minutes. In The Taros Campaign an in-system engagement between Imperial and Tau ships takes weeks to reach a conclusion.

But that was sublight speed wasn't it? I'm sure they didn't have their warp drives activated.

I remember one book, might have been Eisenhorn or Cain, talks about spending a month or so travelling from the planet to the jump point at the edge of the system at sublight speed.

Iracundus
30-03-2008, 22:46
Andy Chambers- "The scale is basically there as a rule of thumb and I didn't worry about it too much when it came down to setting weapon ranges, ship speeds and so on. These were all done to create the right impression of distance on the tabletop."

I rest my case.


Incorrect

He is saying it is a rough scale which was the ORIGINAL point iterated, he then still goes on to discuss the scale, crew sizes, scale of lance turrets, and speeds of ordnance craft.


This would make an attack craft capable of moving 30cm per ordnance phase capable of doing approximately 30-120,000 km/h.

That is Andy Chambers' own calculation of what a 30cm movement equates to, which is also in line with my earlier calculations. There IS a scale to BFG despite repeated player attempts to deny it, just merely that has always been acknowledged to be a rough fuzzy scale.

Perfect Organism
30-03-2008, 23:06
But that was sublight speed wasn't it? I'm sure they didn't have their warp drives activated.
Yes, I was talking about sub-light speeds there.

I remember one book, might have been Eisenhorn or Cain, talks about spending a month or so travelling from the planet to the jump point at the edge of the system at sublight speed.
I wasn't even aware that 40k had 'jump points'; I assumed that you just had to be far enough away from anything important to avoid buggering it up with warp energy when you opened your warp gate.

On the other hand, I guess that the relationship between the warp and real-space means that some points are going to be better to enter from than others and if you are jumping in to a system, then you could well expect to spend some time getting exactly where you wanted to go after arriving a good distance away just in case something went wrong and you ended up opening your gate 10,000 km off where you intended and smashing into a planet or something.

Egfy
30-03-2008, 23:13
I seem to recall that in the 2nd ed Sisters codex there was a map showing a pilgrims route and it had approximate journey lengths for all the stops on the route. I dont have it with me right now so I cannot check.

Burnthem
30-03-2008, 23:13
I assume that busy systems would need Jump points to avoid possible collisions with ships arriving and departing all over the place. Obviously the chances of a collision are TINY, as space is so big, but there is still a chance.

Norminator
30-03-2008, 23:20
I assume that busy systems would need Jump points to avoid possible collisions with ships arriving and departing all over the place. Obviously the chances of a collision are TINY, as space is so big, but there is still a chance.

It also ensures that they are a safe distance from all astronomical bodies, such as asteroid belts and moons. Whilst it could be worked out manually, having a set point is a lot easier for captains and navigators.

Also easier from a system defence point of view.

Hellebore
30-03-2008, 23:26
Gravity affects the warp and making a warp jump within a gravity well is apparently very dangerous. Thus ships have to move to the edge of the system to avoid any problems.

Hellebore

Burnthem
30-03-2008, 23:30
Also easier from a system defence point of view.

Good point about the defence aspects of it, if a ship doesn't emerge from the warp within the specified area, shoot first ask questions later!! :D

Edit - Hellebore, although a possibility i dont think that they have to be that far away to dive into the Warp, there are many instances IIRC in fluff of ships jumping a bit closer to planets than the edge of the system. Of course this could depend on alot of variables, the type of ship, power of the warp engines, capabilities of the Navigator, does the ship even have a navigator?? etc etc

Iracundus
30-03-2008, 23:31
Gravity affects the warp and making a warp jump within a gravity well is apparently very dangerous.

Correct as evidenced by the Dominus Astra's suicidal warp jump while deep in the gravitational well of a gas giant. The resulting havoc destroyed a good chunk of Hive fleet Behemoth.

STORM BRINGER
31-03-2008, 07:44
Actually this is entirely believable, many instances in the fluff, for example the Horus Heresy series, has characters flitting about the galaxy to and from fleets and planets. This is usually noted as having taken weeks/months to do, and not years. As i said before, the Great Crusade reconquered a vast portion of the galaxy in only 300 years, if you then include the time taken to actually fight into that timeframe you must conclude that Warp travel is pretty fast!

Just remember that this fiction written for a table top wargame, it doesnt have to have a grounding in RL Astrophysics.

Fair points and as you'll see from my last post the evidence now provided by Malika is (if I've got it right!) suggesting speeds of up to 15,000 times light speed!!!

I don't have a particular problem with these results but it does make the Galaxy very accessible by Warp Travel and even our nearest significant Galaxy of Andromeda (2.8 million light years distant) could be reached in 187 years at these top warp "speeds"!!! So I think I'll try and curb these back somewhat when GMing, even though they appear correct based on the fluff.

jhon
31-03-2008, 08:42
speed is how much distance you can cover in X amount of time . since their are no law of time and distance in the warp space , therefore speed is a N/A for warp traveling . but in real space i think it sould be around .03 to .19 time of light speed max .

Burnthem
31-03-2008, 08:53
As for getting to Andromeda, one theory that was put forward in another discussion was the the Warp between galaxies is alot harder to travel through, maybe the lack of Celestial Bodies means the warp isnt 'stirred up' and so there arent many currents to hitch a ride on? Dead water in other words.

SonofUltramar
31-03-2008, 09:22
As for getting to Andromeda, one theory that was put forward in another discussion was the the Warp between galaxies is alot harder to travel through, maybe the lack of Celestial Bodies means the warp isnt 'stirred up' and so there arent many currents to hitch a ride on? Dead water in other words.

That would be supported by Lord Solar Macharius' crusade which had to stop as they could no longer navigate as the Astronomican was a faint glimmer and the warp currents made travel very slow

Also in the short story between Warrriors of Ultramar and Dead Sky Black Sun the damaged Vae Victus goes from Tarsis Ultra (near Necromunda) to Macragge in what seems to them like a few months but is in fact a year so I think it must have alot to do with they type of vessel and its state of repair?

On a side note Voyager would take over 70 years at top cruising speed which was in fact over 1500 times the speed of light bearing in mind that it does have to stop to re-supply and may not be able to travel in a straight line? Also Warp speed isn't a linear scale as Warp1 is light speed, warp 7 (Voyagers actual sustainable cruising speed) is 656 times light speed, nice and complicated

It is possible that where things like Trek and other Sci-Fi space travel is dependant on a number of factors (mostly plot driven) that Warp space which, as was said previously, is outside real space and therefore not subject to the laws of physics and is a realm that can be influenced by non-coporeal entities is completly dependant on your ship, navigator and the area you are travelling?

Burnthem
31-03-2008, 10:27
completly dependant on your ship, navigator and the area you are travelling?

Exactly :)

Treat the warp like the ocean, with the same advantages, flaws, perks and odd occurences and you can't go far wrong.

Ashnari Doomsong
31-03-2008, 20:31
Except, of course, add basic Chaos.

Archangel_Ruined
31-03-2008, 21:36
Basic chaos? There's an oxymoron if ever I saw one.