PDA

View Full Version : Another Magic Suggestion.



Mad Doc Grotsnik
10-10-2005, 15:18
Reet, since Magic seems to be a fairly major bone of contention in the current edition, I want to suggest yet another possible change to the system, which could help balance things out a little.

Okay, according to the background (or, to be more specific, the Slayer series by William King) using Magic tires out the user, in much the same way as someone legging it for a while. This means that the Magic user will eventually need to rest up, or risk death from exhaustion. Max Schrieber very nearly does this during the 2nd siege of Praag.

So, why not something similar in Warhammer?

Now, immediately, two possibilities spring to mind as to how best represent this.

Either each caster has a set level of casting dice that they can use during a game. Now, dice would be generated as normal. However, once any given Wizard reaches their cap, they are knackered out, and thusly cannot cast anymore spells for the game. This would *hopefully* discourage the use of scroll and power caddies. You know, low level wizards taken purely for the extra power dice, who never seem to cast anything, leaving it all to the Lvl 4.

Another one is a variation on the above. However, you would instead have a set number of Magic points. These would be expended according to the levels of spells cast. Thusly, if you attempt to cast a 7+ spell, you expend 7 magic points. It is important to note that you do NOT expend the number rolled, otherwise things could get silly. Whether or not failed or dispelled spells would count is another case for discussion.

So, what do you think? I reckon it could be sorted and tweaked enough to be a house rule, as it doesn't unfairly punish any particular army, especially if your generous enough with the points. Ideally, it shouldn't force any unavoidable lock down, but be enough to prevent Power Caddies.

metro_gnome
10-10-2005, 15:42
well i don't know...
it would be important to identify the actual problems with the current magic system...

for example i consider the major problem to be that if i dont bring 8 dice i might as well bring 2...
for me the solution is relatively simple... make dispel scrolls behave like other arcane magic items...
ie as simply one per magician... maybe 1 per army...

if you consider the problem to be that magic is too powerful at level 4 and what not... i would suggest a magic system similar to O&G... with with greater and lesser magic table...

truthsayer
10-10-2005, 15:46
I dont want to sound negative but i think there are only two minor things that need doing to help the magic phase.

1. A wizard may only use the power dice he generates himself. the 2 army basic power dice can be used by anyone.

2. In updates or new army lists they should include a few more trinkets or unit special rules to help dispelling or to hold off magic a while longer.

Incorporating rules to make things "knacker out" after a while is just more complicated and will stop things that rely on magic a great deal (vamps, tk, tzeentch).

Mad Doc Grotsnik
10-10-2005, 15:53
Tzeentch hardly relies on Magic. It's Magic themed, but the spellcasters are also combat mentalists!

Although I see the wisdom of your option one, I feel that you should still be able to use your power dice as you see fit, within reason. Limiting Spellcasters to that which they have generated will only encourage magic overuse, with lots of higher power mages turning up.

505
11-10-2005, 03:35
and swinging a sword doesnt fatige a warrior? a mage shoud be rested up to last the course of a battle

I don't think it will work but at least its an idea most people who complain dont have or want an idea on how to fix the issues

Wintersdark
12-10-2005, 01:44
I'm not liking the tired out thing. While it's kinda erfy having a L4 casting all the spells and a bunch of L2's just providing power dice, it's not necessarily a problem.

After all, stories are chock full of circles of lesser mages assisting greater mages casting spells, providing additional energy.

I feel that this is a pretty small problem in the grand scheme of things.

I'm more concerned with the all-or-nothing nature of magic now. I'd like to see mid-magic armies actually capable of generating.. well, a medium amount of magic, not being totally incapable of casting anything.

shadowprince
12-10-2005, 03:33
I say up magic protection a bit. But thats roughly it. Also only a certia amount of mages per 1000 points differres by army. For example the Warrior based Skaven clan should not have 4 maged doesn't make a lot of sense ot me.
Also yes magic fatigues the wearer but so does whereing heavy armer swinging a weopon and sprinting full speed across a battle field.

Something to either up magic defens eor lomit the amount of wizards would be nice.

Adept
12-10-2005, 03:54
Here's my suggestion, just to repeat myself. Post #178 (http://www.warseer.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11159&page=18).

Nice suggestion. I like it.

I see the problem with the magic phase as being this: It is a heavy points investment which cannot be mitigated by the use of the enemies army. For example, if my opponent spends 600 points on missile troops and war machines, I can minimse the impact of those units by attacking the warmachines, deploying out of range or LOS, and using rubbish units to block LOS to my more expensive units. I don't need to invest a similar point value in missile troops and war machines to do this.

If my opponent spends 600 points on magic users, my options to limit the impact of his magic phase is limited. I cannot attack the wizards as easily as warmachines, many of the most powerful spells do not require LOS or have range limits (or even directly damage my army). Deploying out of LOS or limiting LOS don't work. I need to spend more points on magic in order to effectively minimise the impact of the opponents magic phase.

This is, I believe, the problem with magic. Unlike other point investments, it can only be effectively countered with a similar investment in magic.

How to fix it, I don't know...

Avian
12-10-2005, 11:22
Okay, according to the background (or, to be more specific, the Slayer series by William King) using Magic tires out the user
One would think that fighting tires out the user, but there is nothing that limits how many rounds of combat a model can go through without rest (there was such a mechanism in previous editions for Frenzied characters).

I vote no to magic being more tiring than other activities.

The Phoenix
12-10-2005, 18:34
I like the suggestion that mages can only use the dice they themselves generate, but that still doesn't solve the far greater problem of medium magic armies not being able to cast anything because high magic armies completely shut them down.

Prehaps something needs to be done to the way spells are dispelled?

-Phoenix

Wintersdark
12-10-2005, 22:21
I like the suggestion that mages can only use the dice they themselves generate, but that still doesn't solve the far greater problem of medium magic armies not being able to cast anything because high magic armies completely shut them down.

Prehaps something needs to be done to the way spells are dispelled?

-Phoenix

Well, it's not that a medium magic army can't cast because a high magic army will shut them down - that's to be expected.

The problem is that a medium magic army can't cast against ANY army, even a low magic army, most of the time. A single scroll caddy can often shut them down completely.

The Phoenix
12-10-2005, 22:56
Well, it's not that a medium magic army can't cast because a high magic army will shut them down - that's to be expected.

The problem is that a medium magic army can't cast against ANY army, even a low magic army, most of the time. A single scroll caddy can often shut them down completely.Ah... that makes sense. In that case, I think the best option is to restrict dispell scrolls to one per mage, although I think limiting it to one per army is too strict.

-Phoenix

Wintersdark
13-10-2005, 13:55
Ah... that makes sense. In that case, I think the best option is to restrict dispell scrolls to one per mage, although I think limiting it to one per army is too strict.

-Phoenix

The problem with that solution is that while it works well to fix the issue of medium magic armies being completely shut down by a single scroll caddy, I think it'll make MORE high magic armies.

Because your less able to stop the high magic armies (fewer scrolls) you need to take more wizards...

It's a tricky problem. There simply are a lot of spells that you cannot afford to let go off. There is a valid arguement that a high magic army SHOULD be able to get lots of spells off vs. a mid-magic army, and I don't necessarily disagree. However, while not all do, a lot of traditionally high magic armies can destroy whole units with the casting of a single spell (typically movement spells, but there are really powerful direct damage ones too).

Thus, we get to the root of the problem:

We can't even really agree on what exactly the problem is, so how can we find an adequate solution? :eyebrows: