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Lordmonkey
28-03-2008, 06:17
So before the new book, my army was very infantry based. It consisted of 2 units of skeletons, a large block of grave guard, 2 blocks of zombies, 2 units of dire wolves, 2 units of ghouls and a unit of fell bats. Additionally, there was a V. Lord, a Wight bsb and a Necro. It was very successful for the simple reason that it usually had more units that the enemy, which always adds to tactical flexibility.

I've had 2 games with the new book so far, which is the above army but minus the ghouls and plus a vampire, a corpse cart and a varghulf, and this army is failing. A couple of major issues:

Zombies suck. Last night i played vs Tree Spirits, and i didn't cotton on until halfway through that zombies actually couldn't kill a treeman, because they simply can't pursue (and multiple str2 attacks do nothing to a t6 creature!). Suddely, my multiple block regiment strategy is shattered, due to the fact that the zombies can't simply outnumber and win vs large gribblies like they used to. So I have to field something that can actually do some killing, rather than win combats on resolution. And since they can no longer be joined by characters, i feel like ruling them out of the army list altogether.

Necromancers suck. For 55 pts, a level 1 wizard that can choose a spell is a bargain, granted, but for an extra 45 pts I can have a Vampire that will grant marches within 6", lend combat support to a unit and is harder to kill - and has two spells! The only possible use that the necro will have is to be able to definitely have Vanhel's danse macabre, but then theres a bound item for that...

The Corpse Cart sucks. That bound spell is only useful the turn after you're main battle line has been charged, by which point you have probably been ground down a lot and therefore need to expend a *lot* of power dice replenishing your losses. For 75pts, the damn thing is still only a bunch of zombies in combat. For that I could have 3 black knights, or a wight king. Balefire looks good on paper, but it really doesn't seem to bother the enemy when they are really committed to casting that game-altering spell, and unholy lodestone just doesn't seem to help anything - even in battles of attrition - neither worth the extra 25pts.

So anyway, i'm dropping the cart, the zombies and the 'mancer. This nets me about 380 pts, and i'm thinking of pushing for some Blood knights, or maybe another vampire, and then mounting the wight king with a unit of black knights.

Any thoughts?

AnotherZach
28-03-2008, 07:06
The Corpse Cart sucks. That bound spell is only useful the turn after you're main battle line has been charged, by which point you have probably been ground down a lot and therefore need to expend a *lot* of power dice replenishing your losses.

The corpse cart Miasma of Deathly Vigor lasts until the start of the next friendly magic phase, so its also good the turn before your main battle line gets charged. I'm not sure why you mention the necessity of replenishing your troops after getting charged as a negative point for the cart - doesn't its bound spell help you get off more IoNs by spreading out enemy dispel dice?

FurryMiguell
28-03-2008, 08:19
if what you say about zombies are true (havent seen the new book yet), I guess my entire army just got useless. its a 4000pts pure infantry army, with 8 black knights and 10 wolves! Im doomed!

Dont feel like saying cheers...

Delmont
28-03-2008, 08:26
Infantry in the new army work just fine. Zombies just can't run anything down anymore. I'd drop them, why pay for them when they are so easy to summon onto the field. I have to completely disagree with you on the corpse cart though. That little gem is always a thorn in my enemies side, especially with the loadstone combined with lord of the dead or summon ghouls, basically cast IoN on a 3+ that is d6+1 model to the unit. My army grows faster than it can be killed!

I do agree with you on the necro though. The vampires are a better choice in my mind for pretty much any situation.

Lord_Byron
28-03-2008, 08:27
Your perceptions are pretty much equal to mine. Zombies are worth raising, but not bringing. Vamps are always better than necros unless you really can't find the points anywhere. I have no idea how one would use the corpse cart effectively.


Replace those zombies with ghouls since you already have the models.

The new black coach looks very powerful, and the wraiths seem pretty good too. I don't know about the blood knights. Proxy those suckers before you throw down the egregious amount of cash they cost.

Black knights led by a wight king seem like a solid investment.

Goldenwolf
28-03-2008, 08:28
Zombies do blow, just raise them to flank/rear charge position people.

Necro's are kind of crappy, I have done away with them in my lists, as they are just too easy to kill in Close Combat, even if riding the Corpse Cart.

The Corpse Cart I am torn on, the model looks sweet, but again it seems a touch easy to kill.

However, Black Knights are great. Blood Knights only take when you can screen them with 3 5 packs of Dire Wolves, and maybe even a unit of Black Knights. They Are awesome, but you need plenty of screeners, or they'll be lead off the board.

FurryMiguell
28-03-2008, 09:00
My army now numbers hundreds of zombies! Id really like to use them, and one this is for sure, you cant summon hundreds of zombies in one game...

Just a question: if zombies cant will by combat res anymore, how do they win then?

Cheers:D

Zethal
28-03-2008, 10:29
Zombies suck.
Yup only good for being summoned as people have said.
They are now diverts, march blockers, tarpits, and cautious flankers.

Necromancers suck....The only possible use that the necro will have is to be able to definitely have Vanhel's danse macabre, but then theres a bound item for that...Sure they can have Danse, but they can only throw two dice at it so you still fail 41% of the time.


The Corpse Cart sucks.Balefire looks good on paper, but it really doesn't seem to bother the enemy when they are really committed to casting that game-altering spell, and unholy lodestone just doesn't seem to help anything - even in battles of attrition - neither worth the extra 25pts.
Balefire is actually amazing, my casket of souls has wrecked many magic phases.
Strike first alright but only ok to supplement your magic phase. I only fit the carts into 1 of my VC list I planned out.

Any thoughts?

I'd give the Blood Knights a try. They are crazy, just bring wolves or bats along to help control the frenzy.

Varghulf are pretty bad to. Annoying of GW to have so many non-viable units. This is a mistake they make in every army.

Zethal
28-03-2008, 10:35
Just a question: if zombies cant will by combat res anymore, how do they win then? they dont.

oCoYoRoAoKo
28-03-2008, 10:37
i think you are missing the point here. true that zombies may suck eggs out of chickens, but 1 on 1 theyre not meant to win by themself. they provide the all important unit strength required for flank breaking or just as a immovable tarpit. corpse carts are, in my opinion, one of the more nasty things in the list. dont buy the raise bonus and go for the -1 to cast. 2 of these will severely affect the course of your opponents magic phase. that combined with the bound ability of it + regeneration, and voila, you have a tough unit that can potentially take a cannonball in the head and keep going.

on the topic of necros, theyre worth it for the ability to pick their spells alone - pick the first spell + the free one they get and there you have a cheap utility caster (one dice casting spells shouldnt be overlooked) with the ability to be your scroll caddy, saving points for your vampires. plonk him on a cart and guess what! he can join units making him even harder to kill and giving that unit loads of attacks to boot.

Cy.

FurryMiguell
28-03-2008, 10:41
right, but I kinda liked the idea of pushing my 30 man strong units of zombies into the face of the enemy, and a 20 strong unit in the flank and break them down like that. now, I guess I need to use dire wolfs as flanking units for my entire army, but that means Ill have loads of zombies I dont need!

oh well, when I get the new book, I hope the skellies are still up to a job

Cheers:D

EvC
28-03-2008, 10:53
Tip: Zombies can't pursue, but you can still raise a unit of 5 behind enemies that might break and kill them like that.

Zombies should never be a big part of the plan though.

The_Warsmith
28-03-2008, 11:15
i run an ifnatry army and have had alot of success with it

first swap the zombies for skellies, or ghouls since you have the models but personally i prefer the skellies 4+ save which to me is better than T4 and since ghouls can't have banners their crappy for a front line infantry block sure they kill more but the point of front line infantry is to hold and pin the enemy untill they break, every time i hear about or see ghouls used they usually get pumeled into the ground by the ranked up unit they charged, skellies led by a vampire with lord of the dead will never let you down

corpse cart i can't really comment on since i don't have one and havn't used one, it's a cool model but it just screams "SHOOT ME!" it's a big model and a cannon can see it dead in a turn

necros i don't take, their weak and vulnerable i always take vampires and wight kings, they have their uses sure but you need the fighting ability and magical ability of vamps to keep your line from crumbling

i think you should widen your tactical flexibility too, get some black knights, led by a wight king and armed with the banner of hellish vigour these blokes are amazing and i'd take them over blood knights any day since their cheaper (so you can field more units) and you have control over them, someone said wraiths too their a good option just a unit of 3 lurking behind some grave guard can then flank a unit that charges them (or the unit they charge)

my opinion on zombies is to take at least one unit, their cheap so you can add extra numbers to your army easily and i really don't trust magic enough to raise them for me (miscasting at least three times a battle is common for me :p )

Dark_Mage99
28-03-2008, 11:50
Zombies aren't there to kill. But they can bog a unit down, ready to be slammed in the flank by something hard enough to bypass the rubbishness of zombies. Ie. Blood Knights.

They are also endless, with Invocation raising so many. As a result, they can protect your flanks very well indeed. I'm fielding 2 units of 20 in my army.

Corpse Carts with Balefire are awesome! Their bound spell, as someone already mentioned, lasts for two turns of combat, so you can do it on your lines in preperation of the charge. Balefire is a massive help. Two gives you -2 to casting, and it's possible to get +2 to dispel as well... that's hardcore.

The Clairvoyant
28-03-2008, 12:02
Of course zombies ‘suck’’. They cost 4pts per model. What did you expect?
But if you’re in combat with a treeman then you’re stopping said treeman splatting the rest of your army. Raise a unit behind the treeman and vanhels them in. Make another and hit the flank if you want to go overboard. You’ll win combat without hurting it and because the highest unit strength is in the front, it flees directly away – into your rear zombies. Pop goes the treeman!
A lot of people talk about slamming a hard unit into combat to help the zombies but I feel this is totally wrong. Think of the zombie movies – hordes of zombies coming in from all sides. You can then afford to take the casualties but because you’ve wiped out their rank bonus, you have +1 for the flank and +2 for the rear, plus your 3 ranks and banner, your opponent needs to kill 8 in that turn to stay in the fight, and that’s assuming you don’t kill anyone with all those attacks you have. Make them WS 7 and suddenly those 4pt zombies become very valuable.

Necromancers – yes they are 45pts cheaper than a vampire, but then this makes them perfect scroll caddies. No vamp really wants to be carrying a dispel scroll when he could be carrying a magic sword!

Corpse carts – your comment regarding being like zombies in combat – well, corpse carts shouldn’t *be* in combat. They should be stood behind your skellies or grave guard. Balefire is awesome, but to be really effective, take 2 carts with it. And a vampire lord with skull staff. That way, you can pretty much shut down your opponents magic phase. If they throw lots of dice at a spell then they have a greater chance of miscasting and you can use one of your necros scrolls if they avoid the double 1s.

But the major issue is that it seems to me that you are trying to make a 6th edition army with the 7th edition book. The dynamics of the VC army has changed so that its time to come up with new tactics and change the way you fight.

Tiamat
28-03-2008, 12:11
It's a shame when old setups crash in the face of new rules, but sadly that's the way of things.

I'd definitely agree that Zombies are a waste of points, but for massed summoning, you can really screw an opponents battle plan by stick random units in their path, or behind them. And though they die easily enough, the fact that you can raise as many as you need means you have an endless supply of them! Stick a decent sized regiment in the way and just keep rasing more! Even Chosen Chaos knights of Khorne will take their time cutting their way through that, by which point you've lined up your blood knights for a flank charge, bye bye khorne loonies.

Necromancers, you're probably right, there's nothing they can do that a Vampire doesn't do better. Okay, you're spending twice as much on vampires after equipment and abilities, but they're just so much better. Maybe a necromancer as cheap offensive spell caster, or stick him on a corpse cart for support, but by and large Vampire would be my first choice.

Speaking of which, though I;ve yet to face a corpse cart, I read the rules and realise what a pain they have the potential to be. Start adding those little extras and you'll either mess with my magic or boost your own considerable abilities.

Most of all I'd say don't judge everything after just two battles. You can't possibly have tried every configuration, strategy and trick after 2 fights. Try them again, but use them differently this time, think outside your regular box and see what happens. Best of luck to you.

Cragspyder
28-03-2008, 12:15
Zombies suck. Last night i played vs Tree Spirits, and i didn't cotton on until halfway through that zombies actually couldn't kill a treeman, because they simply can't pursue (and multiple str2 attacks do nothing to a t6 creature!). Suddely, my multiple block regiment strategy is shattered, due to the fact that the zombies can't simply outnumber and win vs large gribblies like they used to.


How the hey were you ever consistantly beating large monsters, who can't be autobroken as they normally cause Terror, with Zombies in the first place?

I assume you were relying on winning by 1 or 2 simply due to weight of number, hoping for the break, and then hoping to roll high to run them down? Seems like an iffy strategy even with the old zombies, to be honest.

As another poster mentioned, at least they are killing 4 point models.

Lordmonkey
28-03-2008, 13:27
How the hey were you ever consistantly beating large monsters, who can't be autobroken as they normally cause Terror, with Zombies in the first place?

Well. it was a bare minimum tarpit strategy, but if you think about it, a lot of large monsters have leadership 8 or less, so a loss of 1 is a roll of 7 or less on 2d6, which is 50/50 i believe. During this game, a unit of zombies caused a (stubborn) treeman to flee twice. Admittedly, my opponent was unlucky with him (testing vs ld 9), but under the old zombie rules that Treeman would have been run down and the zombies free to support the rest of the army in the last few turns.

One of the funniest zombie moments I ever had was in 6th ed, when a unit of 8 zombies with a standard destroyed a Lord of Change. The Big Bird fluffed it's rolls, lost combat by 3 and vanished due to instability :D

Thanks for all the replies guys. I've had a think, and i've gone with a list that is a tad more elite, but also more capable of actually killing something rather than just autobreaking everything with combat resolution. I think the ability to actually slay models lends itself well for the metagame with regards to the number of competitive armies that are racially immune to psychology (e.g. Daemon Legions).

The basic layout is now the block of grave guard led by a wight king, supported by two blocks of skellies and a block of ghouls, each led by a vampire (one is a lord). All of this is support by a corpse cart with an unholy lodestone. I'm generating 7 power dice a turn plus the book of arkhan, which will mainly be used on any unit that needs fighting support rather than for manouverability. On the tertiary, I have a 5-strong shock unit of blood knights with the flag of blood keep, supported by a unit of dire wolves and a unit of fell bats. These guys will usually range out on the flank, or alternatively sit in the middle of the army and punch a hole in the enemy lines.

My next game is wednesday evening, so i'll let you all know how I fare. 3rd time lucky! :D

GrogsnotPowwabomba
28-03-2008, 13:39
The Corpse Cart sucks. That bound spell is only useful the turn after you're main battle line has been charged...

I don't get this. I find this spell even more useful when your line is being charged, since your troops will strike before the enemy and reduce the impact of the charge.

Lordmonkey
28-03-2008, 13:40
The corpse cart Miasma of Deathly Vigor lasts until the start of the next friendly magic phase, so its also good the turn before your main battle line gets charged.


Ack, I just checked and your absoloutely right! I've obviously been reading this wrong - thanks for pointing this out :D


I'm not sure why you mention the necessity of replenishing your troops after getting charged as a negative point for the cart - doesn't its bound spell help you get off more IoNs by spreading out enemy dispel dice?

The cart can take an add-on for 25 pts, which gives +1 to the wounds restored to any undead unit that becomes the target of IoN. It doesn't actually cast the spell itself though. I will give this add-on a try in my next battle, and i'll let you know how it goes :)

Lordmonkey
28-03-2008, 13:41
I don't get this. I find this spell even more useful when your line is being charged, since your troops will strike before the enemy and reduce the impact of the charge.

Yep, I didn't realise it lasted until the next friendly magic phase until now! :rolleyes:

AnotherZach
28-03-2008, 14:07
The cart can take an add-on for 25 pts, which gives +1 to the wounds restored to any undead unit that becomes the target of IoN. It doesn't actually cast the spell itself though. I will give this add-on a try in my next battle, and i'll let you know how it goes :)

What I meant was, the corpse cart will be casting its bound spell after you are charged (just like in every magic phase). This gives your opponent some extra choices to make. Do they throw a dispel die at the cart spell to stop you from gaining an advantage in any close combats that are still going or do they hold them for the inevitable invocations?

More choices for an opponent means more chances for them to make the wrong move.

Best of luck in your next battle!

FurryMiguell
28-03-2008, 14:10
EvC: but thats the problem! My loved zombies was always a big part of my plan, as I could get a lot of them, and summon new ones when they died. invincible tactic! not anymore though, as they are useless to me now...

Cheers:D

Black-Tooth
28-03-2008, 14:16
I thought the Corpse Cart was invaluable as a support unit. Stick it behind the main body to troops and fire off the bound spell to always strike first is obvious. How can this thing not be good? Works beautifully with Grave Guard!

explorator
28-03-2008, 14:52
Necromancers suck. For 55 pts, a level 1 wizard that can choose a spell is a bargain, granted, but for an extra 45 pts I can have a Vampire that will grant marches within 6", lend combat support to a unit and is harder to kill - and has two spells!

A Vampire hero is level one, and has only a single spell. The second spell only comes with a bloodline power, so your 2nd level Vampire that has two spells is more than +45 points.

I am among those that see the Necromancer as a utility piece; he is a great scroll caddie or a decent Vanhel's spammer. All of our 'new' lists are heavy on Vampires, but I think more Necros will be seen as we get games in. I look forward to experimenting with my lists, and trying different things, like more Necros.

@Lordmonkey; Thanx for the feedback, I had a similar problem with my Black Knight army (3 units) that crapped out. I think you will find value in all the units that failed you in that game, it's just a matter of adjusting tactics to match the 'new' army.

Lordmonkey
28-03-2008, 14:58
A Vampire hero is level one, and has only a single spell. The second spell only comes with a bloodline power, so your 2nd level Vampire that has two spells is more than +45 points.

No, you don't need to upgrade him at all. Read from Lore of the Vampire, p39: "In addition to IoN, a vampire knows one spell from the Lore of the Vampires for each magic level."

So that's two, in total.


@Lordmonkey; Thanx for the feedback, I had a similar problem with my Black Knight army (3 units) that crapped out. I think you will find value in all the units that failed you in that game, it's just a matter of adjusting tactics to match the 'new' army.

Thats ok bud :) The biggest issue was the zombies, but they can now only operate effectively in tandem with another unit. Since they are so easy to raise, I think I wont waste the points on them and just raise them in the right places during the battle.

Malorian
28-03-2008, 14:58
I use my my necromancer with the sceptre of noirot and have him as a dedicated zombie raiser.

Zombies do suck and as has been said, the only way to beat an enemy is to raise a unit behind the opponent for them to run into. Really sucks that you bought so many and then they changed the rules. (Just like my speed freak army)

The corpse cart is amazing. They have been star pieces in my army so far. The only thing I'm not sure of is if they can cast that bound spell while in combat themselves...

warlord hack'a
28-03-2008, 15:35
just to clear up one rulesmistake I saw mentioned: when in combat to the front and rear and you break then you are NOT autodestroyed as the unit in your rear is not counted for the crossfire rule. See the FAQ (I believe).

Malorian
28-03-2008, 15:40
just to clear up one rulesmistake I saw mentioned: when in combat to the front and rear and you break then you are NOT autodestroyed as the unit in your rear is not counted for the crossfire rule. See the FAQ (I believe).

The idea isn't that they are in combat from the front and rear, the idea is that they are in combat from one direction, and on the other side a unit of zombies it just standing there. So that if the opponent runs then they will automatically be destroyed by running into the zombies.

Conotor
29-03-2008, 03:58
Zombies are awsome. Take a unit of 30, hold someone in place for a long time, and when they are almost threw, you ahve flanked them with grave guards, knights, exe.

Goldenwolf
29-03-2008, 07:19
Be careful when you flank with Zombies. If the enemy kills 8 in Close Combat and the Grave Guard kill 3, guess who wins.

Brother Bart
29-03-2008, 07:50
i run an ifnatry army and have had alot of success with it

first swap the zombies for skellies, or ghouls since you have the models but personally i prefer the skellies 4+ save


I'm confused...how does light armor + a shield grant a 4+ save? I'm not trying to be a smart ass here. I'm sorta new to the fantasy rules...shouldn't it be 5+?

Delmont
29-03-2008, 08:05
its 4+ in combat due to hand weapon and shield bonus.

warlord hack'a
29-03-2008, 10:45
but then only when fighting to the front (when flanked you do not get the ' parry' bonus), BRB p 56

FurryMiguell
29-03-2008, 11:07
@warlord hack'a: well, as VC is a horde army, how often do you find your skellies outnumbered and flanked? (as for skaven and goblins, they run away before the battle has even started yet;))

Cheers:D

Lionberg
29-03-2008, 15:32
For me this new armybook has just one clear aim - to get rid of horribly overpowered, boring and simply sad "All necromancers + zombies" armies. In every tournament I always saw at least a couple of these armies and I always felt guilty playing Vampires, even though I never played this cheese myself. Hence zombies and necros are made such a crap in this book. Overall a great change and I just hope people who admit having over 100 zomies painted were not using that sad army in 6th edition, maybe they just loved to keep zombies on their shelfs...

darknar
29-03-2008, 22:45
My army now numbers hundreds of zombies! Id really like to use them, and one this is for sure, you cant summon hundreds of zombies in one game...

Just a question: if zombies cant will by combat res anymore, how do they win then?

Cheers:D

actually... you can summon

2 powerdice rise dead and sceptre of noirot = 10 - 12 zombies new unit
1 powerdice invocation add D6 + 4 zombies to existing unit

you "can" have a 16 powerdice in your pool on turn 2, 15 on turn 1

first turn

2 powerdice raise dead enemy dispell
2 powerdice raise dead enemy dispell
2 powerdice raise dead 11 zombies with sceptor of noirot
cast invocation 9 times for on adverage 30 odd zombies

second turn

cast invocation 16 times for 50 odd zombies

Rince and Repete

make shure this unit is BEHIND or to the side of the enemy and watch his face contort in horror. then van dance into his face (or his unit) of your choice

sit back and watch his (insert Uber unit) try to chop this unit apart all game


i will note that i have not tryed this list as of yet as i lack thezombie models to feild this army

Snipafist
30-03-2008, 16:58
For 4 points each, zombies really aren't that bad at all. A unit of 30 comes out costing 120 points before standard and musician, and you can replenish them very easily (D6+4 for Invocation). They're not great fighters, but there is a definite bonus for having a lot of them - D6 hits for each rank of 5+ when the enemy flees - sure they might not be able to run anyone down anymore, but a unit of 50 (quite easy to reach with Invocation) will be inflicting 10D6 S2 hits when the enemy flees - an average of 35 S2 hits.

Frankly
31-03-2008, 06:08
The two main reasons why you have 1 unit of zombies in your armylist:

1; To preserve P.Dice, this is all important(for me atleast). Your opening VC magic phases are totally wasted if your spending huge amounts of P.Dice spamming IoN and R.Dead. They are good spells, but in turn 1, 2 and even 3 you really want to put the pressure on your opponent by casting Curse of years, gaze of nagash and even Wind of undeath.

What your trying to do is snipe down his unit strength and rank bonuses, so its easier to auto break his units.


Reason 2; Skellies are 8pts and can hold a flank from being charged by light cavalry, zombies are 4pts and can hold a flank from getting charged from light cavalry.

Skellies are reasonably costly for a core infantry unit, compared to Swordsman or Ork's for example, so you actually have to use them reasonably aggressively to get value out of them, sitting them on flank guard duty when you have the option to buy zombie for half the price is a points waste imho.




In deployment I sit my zombie unit on a flank away from to much trouble.

So for the last 5 or 6 games I've had a unit of zombies sitting on one of my flanks warding off flanking units and keeping my battle line safe. They just sit there trying not really to get into trouble, I've spent 80pts for peace of mind. If they are targeted, then the opponent usually have to swing a unit around from the main conflict to deal with them.

They can also threaten a flank later in the game if needs be. But the point is they're there doing a job thats worth their points costing. They still cause fear, they still have rank bonuses and still add to outnumbering = nice unit to have in a list.


Target units that they can actually hold up, rank and file units with a single attack are perfect, so are light cavalry or flyers etc, etc. Don't put them in the way of Brit knight units and wonder why they suck, don't put them in the way of characters in units, its just to many attacks for them to deal with.

If summoning, then summon them behind or to the flanks of enemy units, and leave them their don't push them into combat if you know theres a chance they're going to give you a negative CR result. Let your opponent deal with the threat first then use them. Don't just summon them as road blocks for the sake of putting something in the way of his armylist, this usually equals an over-run and a loss of P.Dice and V.P.s.

When raising zombies, actually raise and real zombie horde unit that the opponent have to contend with 20+ minimum.

I love my zombies.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
31-03-2008, 06:33
I agree with Frankly 100% on Zombies. People are really underestimating their value.

Lordmonkey
31-03-2008, 06:49
I still think that t2 is handing CR to your opponent on a silver plate. However, they do make good for raising + rear charge. I just can't justify them in the list anymore.

Frankly
31-03-2008, 07:12
Who cares about T2. what ever points my opponent sent to charge against my 80pt unit ... good going .... let him have his CR's ... out on the flank ... out of the main combat ... out of the way.


Keep it simple, you know they're not going to hold up in major conflicts, so dont put them there. Don't blame the zombie unit if you put them at the heart of your battle line. Use them where they'd be better served.

By the way I love your VC stat sig. Made me LOL.

decker_cky
31-03-2008, 07:44
How are the zombies really any different than they were against a treeman anyways? Sure, they can't wound now, but before, they needed 5's to hit, 6's to wound, then a failed 3+ save, then a failed 5+ ward. Treemen still hit and wound the same against zombies, so really, not much in the combat has changed. Plus, at the discount they got, I think not being able to pursue there is of small consideration.

Lordmonkey
31-03-2008, 08:41
How are the zombies really any different than they were against a treeman anyways? ... Plus, at the discount they got, I think not being able to pursue there is of small consideration.

Because in the old rules, the game i had the combat goes one of two ways. A: the treeman loses (it is impossible to win vs 5 static CR with only 5 attacks) and passes his break test. So hes held there. Or, he fails and breaks, which means the zombies can potentially run him down and kill him. Now they can either hold him there, or alternatively he escapes. This doesnt make zombies worse per-se, it just changes their strategic role in the army. What i used to use them for will not be the same. I would rather raise them that field them to begin with.

Dranthar
31-03-2008, 08:45
Personally I'd say that Necromancers definitely have their place in a VC army.

I have 2 necros in my army totalling about 200pts. For those points i could have taken another vampire kitted out for magic but I'd lose a dispel die, have no guarantee of getting the game-winning vanhels spell, and all that magic would be concerntared into one model, rather than two that I could have spread out over my army (very important with the shorter ranged magic).

Alternativey I could spend the points to upgrade them both to vampires, but it still doesn't get me vanhels and the upgrade is going to cost me a good 200 points - enough for a vargulf or black coach. Personally I know whch one I'd prefer.

Also a necromancer is far easier to kill in combat if he's on a corpse cart, and if the corpse cart is in a unit, it compromises that units ability to cause damage, both thanks to the wide frontage of the model.

So I guess taking a necromancer on a corpse cart is a trade off between keeping the cart safe from shooting or keeping the necromancer safe(er) in combat. Personally, I'm keeping my corpse cart seperate from the necromancer, both for the above and because it makes the cart a less obvious target.