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Spiney Norman
28-03-2008, 10:20
A question about how 2nd Gen Slann magic works

"Every spell cast by the Slann may have an extra dice added to it after the dice have been rolled" ~LM AB

Can the 2nd Gen Slann's free dice be used for every spell he attempts, or only those which have already been cast successfully on the initial power dice roll?

Dux Ducis
28-03-2008, 10:35
Every spell. The rule explcitly says so.

Havesome
28-03-2008, 12:09
Every spell. This shouldn't even be an issue.

Fletcher
28-03-2008, 13:05
That's an example of some interesting wording by GW right there. I've always played that i just roll an extra dice for my slann when attempting to cast.


"Every spell cast by the Slann may have an extra dice added to it after the dice have been rolled" ~LM AB

It's really horribly phrased. Is a spell cast when a rolling attempt is made or if the casting value is equalled or beaten?

It doesn't say after the spell has been cast by the rolling dice or just after the dice have been rolled.

I think i will stick to the way i play it now and just simply add a dice when casting a spell as 2nd Gen's are expensive and would be underpowered imo if they didnt have the extra dice to cast.

redrum
28-03-2008, 14:39
Um, there is no horrible phrasing or confusing wording at all in that rule. Honestly it's just about as clear as the rules for this game get. It can be used on every spell.

theunwantedbeing
28-03-2008, 14:52
You roll the dice normally, if you reach the required casting value the spell is cast and you may roll an additional dice to further increase the power of the spell.
If you do not reach the required casting value, the spell is not cast...plain and simple.

It isnt the clearest of wordings, otherwise this question wouldnt come up would it? :P

redrum
28-03-2008, 15:06
I disagree, the rule doesn't say anything about it being succesfully cast. The whole point of the rule imo is that if you attempt to cast something and fall a little short you can throw another dice in to get the spell off.

As far as the wording, you're right apparently it's not clear enough. It appears that the use of the word "cast" is what's confusing people for some reason. I believe that if the spell had to be succesfully cast to use the extra dice it would have specified that. And honestly, while useful, an extra dice on an already succesfull spell just doesn't make as much sense to me.

theunwantedbeing
28-03-2008, 15:09
The spell isnt "cast" if you dont hit the required value though.
The rule doesnt say every spell attempt, it says every spell cast.

redrum
28-03-2008, 15:23
And if it did say spell attempt someone would be arguing that it couldn't be used on succesfully cast spells, and if it said succesfull casts then the argument would be that it couldn't be used on casting attempts. In this instance I think the wording was used because it's meant to be used on both attempts and already succesfull casts. Honestly they need to write a whole page for these rules for there to not be any disputes about them :p

Armilthuan
28-03-2008, 15:24
Please notethat there is a difference between 'cast' and 'cast succesfully'.

Malorian
28-03-2008, 15:27
There is only 1 person I've ever seen on here that debated this....

To everyone else, it's fairly obvious...

theunwantedbeing
28-03-2008, 15:28
The difference between the 2 being that a spell that is merely cast, has had no attempt to dispel it.
A spell that has been successfully cast has not been stopped by a dispel attempt.

Page 108
if the dispel result is equal to or higher than the caster's score then the spell is dispelled - it is not cast and has no effect.
if the dispel result is lower than the casters casting result, the spell is said to have been cast successfully

redrum
28-03-2008, 15:37
so now a spell is only succesfully cast if someone attempted to dispell it? What if I cast a spell and they don't attempt to dispell it? It's not cast? Come one now, the dispell rule has no bearing on this at all.

theunwantedbeing
28-03-2008, 15:41
The dispel attempt needs to fail, if there is no dispel attempt....the dispel attempt failed!
Jeez.....

Zoolander
28-03-2008, 16:07
Although Unwanted Being makes a very good point, I always thought the implied rule of the Slann was obivously that he may roll and extra die regardless of whether the spell was cast with the initial die throw or not.

Caboose123
28-03-2008, 16:08
This question has been asked before...

The problem is that the spell is only cast once you reach the casting value, i could use quotes from the BRB to prove this, so actually by RAW you do need to reach the casting roll, HOWEVER, when i posted this up here, someone found a FAQ where it was clarified, that every attempt gets an extra die, whether or not it is cast.

theunwantedbeing
28-03-2008, 16:20
The poll seems a tad biased.
A spell that is succesfully cast is one that goes off and will affect the enemy, an extra dice added then will only manage to cause a miscast and make the spell fail.

The rule doesnt say spell attempt either.
The rule says spell cast, not spell attempted.

Note that slann get +1 to spell attempts.

Where's this FAQ?
It doesnt appear to be on the GW site.

Havesome
28-03-2008, 16:29
GW Grand Tournaments ruled that the dice can be used whether the attempt is successful or not.

redrum
28-03-2008, 16:32
The poll isn't baised, most people just don't agree with your interpretation. We've covered this, it doesn't say spell attempt, that's true. It also doesn't say succesfull cast. This is really just turning into a semantics argument.

You're right about the FAQ though, it's not in the Lizardmen faq on the GW website. I'd lke to see the faq caboose referred to.

N810
28-03-2008, 16:40
there have been many threads on the subject,
they all came to the same conclusion,
as the poll results confirm.

GodHead
28-03-2008, 16:40
Q. What is the correct way to handle the Second Generation
Slann's "Free Dice"? Can he always use it, or only if a spell is
successfully cast (i.e. the casting value is reached), first?

A. It can always be used. Change the first sentence of the second
paragraph under 'Second Generation' on page 49 to: "Every spell
attempted by the Slann...."
S. Gav Thorpe - Warhammer Design Team


From the Direwolf FAQ

redrum
28-03-2008, 16:43
Thank you Godhead. I guess that settles it.

Festus
28-03-2008, 16:46
Well, it is Direwolf. ;)

But I agree. *Cast* is present here, not past tense, as unwantedbeing wants us to believe. The dice can be added to every spell cast by the Slann.

I honestly do not understand why this always comes up, honestly. It is a pointless ability if it were only for successfully cast spells - the chance for a miscast is much too high to only make dispelling harder. :(

Festus

theunwantedbeing
28-03-2008, 16:46
So they changed it to every spell attempted eh?
Works for me, my arguement was based around the wording in the book...so was fully correct if you ignore the direwolf FAQ.

Havesome
28-03-2008, 16:54
So they changed it to every spell attempted eh?
Works for me, my arguement was based around the wording in the book...so was fully correct if you ignore the direwolf FAQ.

No, you really weren't fully correct. Cast and successfully cast are both used in the rules regarding the Slann. Look at the Drain Magic rules. ...may be cast...if successful... It's pretty obvious that cast never meant successful in itself.

theunwantedbeing
28-03-2008, 17:06
See, yet more proof that everyone is simply reading what they want to read and not what I am actually saying.

Here's how magic works to help you understand.

1.You declare what spell you are wishing to attempt to cast, and how many dice you are wishing to attempt to cast the spell with.

2. You roll the dice, trying to equal or bet the required score to cast the spell, a bonus to cast is also added to this score of the dice rolls.

3. If you do not reach the required roll the spell is not cast.
the slann doesnt get an extra dice as the spell was never cast
If you reach the required roll the spell is now cast.
this is where the slann gets his additional "free" dice, as the spell was cast

4. Your opponent is now allowed to roll a number of dispel dice to attempt to dispel your spell, and they are required to equal or exceed the score you rolled with all modifers(including the extra amount given by the additional dice the slann was allowed to roll)

5. Your opponent beats the required amount, the spell is dispelled.
Or
Your opponent fails to beat the required amount and the spell is successfully cast.

Hence, my interpretation was indeed correct.
However, my interpretation was made without knowledge of the direwolf FAQ which changes the wording to allow the free dice for each spell ATTEMPT.

If you still cant understand what I was saying then please do not tell me I am wrong.

End of debate, the slann gets the free dice for each spell.

redrum
28-03-2008, 17:17
Sigh. Clearly Theunwantedbeing was right. Obviously EVERYONE else was wrong and you are in fact the only person capable of deciphering these incredibly complex rules. There, happy? Can we put this to bed now please?

GodHead
28-03-2008, 17:23
I actually agree with his argument, it is just is no longer applicable if you follow the Direwolf FAQ.

It's similar to the problem that erupted last edition with Gut Magic and "successfully cast."

Havesome
28-03-2008, 17:29
Sigh. Clearly Theunwantedbeing was right. Obviously EVERYONE else was wrong and you are in fact the only person capable of deciphering these incredibly complex rules. There, happy? Can we put this to bed now please?

I laughed.

Caboose123
28-03-2008, 23:45
Thank you Godhead, that was the FAQ i was reffering to (and thank goodness cos i have no idea where to find it :p)

For the sake of argument...


If the casting result equals or exceeds the spell's casting value, the spell is cast

That pretty much states that theunwantedbeing (and i in a previous thread) were right. Of course the FAQ solves this...

GodHead
28-03-2008, 23:54
Yeah, his argument was definitely solid, but that FAQ response was given shortly after the Lizardmen book came out, so it's been in force for a long time.

redrum
29-03-2008, 00:19
His argument was very much a letter vs. spirit of the law sort of thing. The problem of course is that the BRB uses the word "cast" in different ways which presents a problem. As I said before it's really a semantics argument. I'm not trying to belabor the point and yes he was right about casting rules, just not about how it applied to this particular point. The problem with these types of arguments is the inherent lack of flexibility. It's very much a well it says this so it's that way and there's nothing else to say about it type of thing. Which only works if the rules use the exact same terminology throughout, and I don't believe they do in this case.

Just as an example, look at the magic phase sequence chart on page 103. Step 2 is cast spells, step 4 is spell fails or spell succeeds. By that chart you cast the spell before you know if it succeeds or not. It's inconsistent with other portions of the text.

As a side note I hope Theunwanted being isn't taking any of this personally. Even when I'm being snarky as I was in my earlier post it's meant playfully, not as a personal attack. I just know I don't always come across that way.

DeathlessDraich
29-03-2008, 09:46
4 important phrases/words:

A) attempt to cast
B) automatically cast
C) cast
D) cast successfully

The FAQ is poor as usual. It simply answers a specific question instead of
clarifying the problem.
(D) is the only phrase which is used 'correctly' in the magic chapter. The other 3 are nebulous and are used inconsistently.


D) A spell is cast successfully:
The spell is successful (i.e. starts to work) if the words "cast successfully" is present - pg 108.
The emboldened letters are GW not mine and shows the importance of that phrase and that its meaning is specific.

C) A spell is cast: pg 107
This occurs when the dice roll exceeds the casting value.
But
The word 'cast' is also used loosely elsewhere (pg107, pg 110 etc) when it means 'attempt to cast'

which creates problems with (A) and (B)

T10
29-03-2008, 12:49
Considering that "analyzing" this particular issue requires one to pick apart the entire process of casting spells, I would like to advocate the simple solution:

The player rolls the dice to cast the spell and then decides to add an additional power dice.

It's simple and most certainly fair considering the appaling upgrade cost: +135 points.

-T10

Caboose123
29-03-2008, 13:21
Those are the rules because of the FAQ, we are arguing for the sake of arguing really :D

Cast succesfully is if you cast the spell (see the definition i gave for cast) and it is not dispelled, there is an important difference from cast and cast succesfully.


If the dispel result is lower than the caster's casting result, the spell is said to have been cast successfully.

Havesome
29-03-2008, 14:37
I think you would see the use of 2nd Gen Slanns go waaaaaay down if you could only add the dice if the spell was succesfully cast.

Famder
29-03-2008, 23:25
The difference between the 2 being that a spell that is merely cast, has had no attempt to dispel it.
A spell that has been successfully cast has not been stopped by a dispel attempt.

Page 108
if the dispel result is equal to or higher than the caster's score then the spell is dispelled - it is not cast and has no effect.
if the dispel result is lower than the casters casting result, the spell is said to have been cast successfully

It also says, this on page 107:
"To cast a spell, a Wizard nominates one of his spells to cast and declares the target of the spell."

This tells you what casting is. So all spells cast are all spells that are declared and give targets. GW has two conflicting definitions of the word "cast" in the same section. The RAW is not clear.

theunwantedbeing
29-03-2008, 23:31
So he just chooses a spell and nominates a target and its cast eh?
Brilliant.

I didnt realise it was so simple, there I was rolling dice to see if it was cast.....silly me.

Caboose123
29-03-2008, 23:50
I agree with Mr. Sarcasm

I think your sentence is out of context, and details the start of the casting sequence. i.e. the word first should be added after wizard

Havesome
30-03-2008, 02:32
It just seems like the results of the poll show that 95 percent of people play the game and use common sense to interpret some of the less-than-clear rules. The other five percent are the type that make you consider moving on to other hobbies.

Famder
30-03-2008, 02:48
So he just chooses a spell and nominates a target and its cast eh?
Brilliant.

I didnt realise it was so simple, there I was rolling dice to see if it was cast.....silly me.

You mistake performing an action and being successful in performing that action. My point was not that your quote is wrong per se, but that GW uses the word cast to have multiple meanings in the exact same section, so you interpretation of what it means to cast is not black and white.

Yes to cast a spell all you have to do is name the spell and pick a target. In order for the effects of the spell to take place you need to do so successfully which takes into account power dice and dispelling.

Think of it like shooting. You nominate a target and roll dice. If you have a BS of 4 you don't say the ones that rolled a 1 or 2 were never shot you just say they failed.

Caboose123
30-03-2008, 15:18
Ah, but in your example its clear that pointing at a target isnt casting a spell, you DO need to roll the dice.
In my mind i think its the beginning stages of to cast a spell, thus my example still makes the most sense.


(why are we still arguing about this ;))

redrum
30-03-2008, 15:25
(why are we still arguing about this ;))

That would be my question as well ;) I think it's safe to say we're at an impasse here. Keep discussing it if it's fun for you but I really can't see any minds being changed on this one, everyone is pretty entrenched in their opinions.

theunwantedbeing
30-03-2008, 15:31
I think Famder is still trying to prove me wrong...while looking a bit foolish.

I cannot really understand why there have been 2 votes for the latter of the 2 answers to the poll, as that particular answer will only result in you managing to fail the spell(miscast) as a successfully cast spell is one that has already had a dispel attempt made at it which has failed.
Note that if no dispel attempt was made the spell is still successfully cast.

I voted for the first one when the direwolf FAQ was given, as that makes it incredibly clear that you get it for each spell attempt.

Caboose123
30-03-2008, 15:33
That would be my question as well ;) I think it's safe to say we're at an impasse here. Keep discussing it if it's fun for you but I really can't see any minds being changed on this one, everyone is pretty entrenched in their opinions.

I dare say the impasse is entirely your unreasanable thinking of the rules. Honestly to me it seems fairly simple, you (would) need to reach the casting value in order to get the free dice.

redrum
30-03-2008, 16:05
I dare say the impasse is entirely your unreasanable thinking of the rules. Honestly to me it seems fairly simple, you (would) need to reach the casting value in order to get the free dice.

And you're certainly entitled to your opinion. I'm done arguing about this though, we'll just have to agree to disagree and move on it seems. In a case where the 2 parties disagree so strongly on things like this I'm inclined to just have a dice off and am willing to accept either result. Can you say the same? I certainly hope so.

Caboose123
30-03-2008, 16:14
Invisible quote? ;)

Lets dice off via internet, i got a 7...

redrum
30-03-2008, 16:17
Invisible quote? ;)

Lets dice off via internet, i got a 7...

Invisible quote for an invisible post :)

Cute answer but I think you know what I was asking. I'll rephrase it for you. Is it more important for you to play the game and have fun or to prove that you're right at all costs?

theunwantedbeing
30-03-2008, 16:28
Characters arent allowed magic weapons.
Page 121
No character can carry more than 1 magical weapon
See backs my up entirely! Allow me to elaborate on how.

No character can carry [i]a [i]magical weapon.
See backs my point up entirely!

I demmand a dice off if you refute this!
Clearly my argument is just as valid as any argument for a character being allowed a magical weapon.

This appears to be the current state of affairs for the argument about the slann and his free dice Mr. redrum. Clearly its quite rediculous and has only a single answer. But you appear to be advocating we dice off anyway?

Caboose123
30-03-2008, 16:33
If i feel the issue needs a dice-off.

Having fun is most important, especially seen as how in my area there are few to no WH tournaments.

Again thats not the issue, firstly, this is a hypothetical discussion, there is an FAQ which proves me wrong. Secondly, though we have 2 seperate opinions i disagree completly and have no respect for yours :)

Sorry, no offense intended.

(Hard to read? :p)

redrum
30-03-2008, 16:35
Characters arent allowed magic weapons.
Page 121
No character can carry more than 1 magical weapon
See backs my up entirely! Allow me to elaborate on how.

No character can carry [i]a [i]magical weapon.
See backs my point up entirely!

I demmand a dice off if you refute this!
Clearly my argument is just as valid as any argument for a character being allowed a magical weapon.

This appears to be the current state of affairs for the argument about the slann and his free dice Mr. redrum. Clearly its quite rediculous and has only a single answer. But you appear to be advocating we dice off anyway?

No no, that's not what I meant. I was really just trying to get a feel for how you guys see these things. Whether you would accept a dice off or just want to keep arguing the point. There have been many instances where I was sure I was right about a rule but my opponent saw it differently. Rather than just stand there and argue about it forever I've accepted a dice off. Sometimes I've won and sometimes I've lost, but we've been able to just get back to having fun after that.

I am only advocating a dice off in the sense that it would make for a more enjoyable experience than sitting at the table arguing for extended periods of time.

Draconian77
30-03-2008, 16:35
Redrum and Caboose please play nicely.

Directed more at you Caboose.

Its all fun and games until you realise your clothes are invisible too... :eyebrows:

Im with Cab and Unwanted on this issue but im open to bribery.

redrum
30-03-2008, 16:38
If i feel the issue needs a dice-off.

Having fun is most important, especially seen as how in my area there are few to no WH tournaments.

Again thats not the issue, firstly, this is a hypothetical discussion, there is an FAQ which proves me wrong. Secondly, though we have 2 seperate opinions i disagree completly and have no respect for yours :)

Sorry, no offense intended.

(Hard to read? :p)

Lol, nah not hard to read, I just highlight your whole post :P

Um, it would take a lot more than that to offend me. However the idea that you have no respect for an argument that is different from yours tells me all I need to know about you. And once again I want to point out, it isn't just my opinion. I'm not the holdout here.

Caboose123
30-03-2008, 16:40
Redrum and Caboose please play nicely.
Directed more at you Caboose.
Im with Cab and Unwanted on this issue but im open to bribery.

My posts are all in good spirit i assure you.........

You cant possibly be open to bribery, i paid yuou for that post, grrrr ;)

Caboose123
30-03-2008, 16:43
Lol, nah not hard to read, I just highlight your whole post :P

Um, it would take a lot more than that to offend me. However the idea that you have no respect for an argument that is different from yours tells me all I need to know about you. And once again I want to point out, it isn't just my opinion. I'm not the holdout here.

I respect good arguments. Take from my post what you want, but this has been discussed and resolved so many times. True, your not the only one who is of that opinion, and anything i say is against everyone of similar opinions, not just you.

In a game I wouldnt dice this off, because of the FAQ, but assuming the FAQ wasnt there, I would still not dice this off, I still think this is a very clear answer (in my favour, no cute quotes), and you who say otherwise are in denial, or just plain _____

redrum
30-03-2008, 16:56
I respect good arguments. Take from my post what you want, but this has been discussed and resolved so many times. True, your not the only one who is of that opinion, and anything i say is against everyone of similar opinions, not just you.

In a game I wouldnt dice this off, because of the FAQ, but assuming the FAQ wasnt there, I would still not dice this off, I still think this is a very clear answer (in my favour, no cute quotes), and you who say otherwise are in denial, or just plain _____

By good arguments it's pretty obvious you mean arguments that you agree with.

So you would force a dice off taking the FAQ into account? The FAQ proves you wrong, there's not dispute about that and yet you would still force a dice off? And without the FAQ you wouldn't consider a dice off? Okay, nothing personal but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't enjoy playing a game with you.

Caboose123
30-03-2008, 16:59
Read my post carefully, I wouldnt dice this off because of the FAQ

If the FAQ was nonexistant i still would not dice this off.

And there are good arguments that i dont agree with, for example, the Steam Tank spiking post. I agree with Godheads initial findings, though some good arguments have been made against it. By Wyzler i think...

Draconian77
30-03-2008, 17:09
Try to take anything Caboose says light heartedly as knowing him personally as I do I can assure you he lacks the intellectual capacity for true malice...



"So you would force a dice off taking the FAQ into account? The FAQ proves you wrong, there's not dispute about that and yet you would still force a dice off? And without the FAQ you wouldn't consider a dice off? Okay, nothing personal but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't enjoy playing a game with you."

Please read previous posts carefully before posting a reply(especially an insulting one.) Forum etiquette is very important on sites as large as these "Internet Forums." In this case he said he would not dice off against the FAQ.

On the other hand "or just plain _____"

I won't let Caboose get away with that one either.


Balance brings harmony.
Then, for no reason whatsoever, everything explodes...

Caboose123
30-03-2008, 17:10
Plain good, plain smart, plain respectful?
You got nothing on me!

redrum
30-03-2008, 17:11
Read my post carefully, I wouldnt dice this off because of the FAQ

If the FAQ was nonexistant i still would not dice this off.

And there are good arguments that i dont agree with, for example, the Steam Tank spiking post. I agree with Godheads initial findings, though some good arguments have been made against it. By Wyzler i think...


I apologize, I did misread your post. Although it doesn't change the fact that without the FAQ you would rather ruin the fun of the game than accept a result you disagree with.

redrum
30-03-2008, 17:13
Try to take anything Caboose says light heartedly as knowing him personally as I do I can assure you he lacks the intellectual capacity for true malice...


I have nothing against him personally, I don't even know him. I just have played with people who put they're need to be right above the enjoyment of everyone else and I don't enjoy the experience of playing with them.

Festus
30-03-2008, 17:16
Plain good, plain smart, plain respectful?
You got nothing on me!
But somebody else might: There are other options, you know - and not the least of which is the nice *ignore list* function on these boards.

I have to admit, that I can only second Draconian77 in his plea that you play nicely - no or yay to *in good spirit*

BTW - back on topic: Isn't this discussion becoming a bit pointless nonetheless? :D

Festus

Draconian77
30-03-2008, 17:19
"Plain good, plain smart, plain respectful?"

Oh I don't know about that Caboose, I have a-lot on all my associates!


@Redrum: I know you don't hate Caboose and yes I have met those players Im just saying everyone needs to be respectful on this forum lest it become nothing but a sparring match between vulgar ignorants.

Edit: Saw Festus' post. Yes it is, someone ask the mods to close it.

Caboose123
30-03-2008, 17:21
Agreed
Okay, i apologize for any implications of what i said...


(though i was right ;) seriously this is a joke.)

Spiney Norman
31-03-2008, 17:31
Hmmm, the poll results speak for themselves. I've played Lizardmen for about 3-4 years (they were my first army) and the accepted approach to using the 2nd Gen at my local club was to only use the free dice if the spell was successfully cast on the power dice roll. The problem is that both positions are a valid reading of the rules as written, at least grammatically, lets have a look.


"Every spell cast by the Slann may have an extra dice added to it after the dice have been rolled" ~LM AB

Now the word "cast" can mean several things, the one which causes us problem here is that the past tense of "I cast" is "I cast", essentially "I cast" can mean "I cast the spell" (i.e. present tense, I am doing it now), or it can mean "I cast the spell" (i.e. past tense, e.g. "I cast the spell last week").

The question is would a further clarification of the rules text read
"every spell in the process of being cast by the Slann", or

"every spell having been cast by the Slann"

The issue is further clouded by the procedure of rolling the power dice first, and then adding the free dice, which may infer the initial casting roll has to be successful.

Having discussed this here and on Pyramid Vault the answer is overwhelmingly the former. Much as I dislike using Direwolf FAQs (I prefer to be consistent, and they have made some highly questionable rulings particularly in the Empire & O&G FAQs), their source is from the GW warhammer forums (now deceased) by a member of the design team involved in producing the LM army book so its a good bet it accurately reflects the intent behind the rather poorly written wording.

In this case the procedure of rolling the power dice, then deciding whether the free dice should be rolled, then rolling it are all considered part of the Slann's casting process, hence they represent how the Slann goes about casting a spell.

Caboose123
31-03-2008, 18:07
The poll has such a decisive outcome because of the direwolf FAQ which Godhead kindly posted up in this thread.

And im fairly sure this has been cleared up at GW tournaments were they make the ruling that they always get the free dice, thus you see lots of "gatling" Slaan in tourny armies...