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Rommel21
10-10-2005, 18:38
How powerful are lasrifles suposed to be, eg. as powerfull as a modern 5.56mm assualt rifle and how many rounds are in the standard power pack?

Mike.

GamesmasterZ
10-10-2005, 18:42
Hah.

An assault rifle...

Get a laser-pointer, point it at something, and make a 'pew' noise.

That is a Lasgun.

Rommel21
10-10-2005, 18:49
lol, it must be more powerful than that if the vast majority of the human empire's army is armed with it!

Mike.

GamesmasterZ
10-10-2005, 18:53
Maybe...

It should atleast burn things too...right?

Rommel21
10-10-2005, 19:00
yer, that worries me though, it seems to point to guardsmen having to stand there and burn a hole thrugh their victims and if they just get a small shot off all it will do is singe the target's clothes/armour,

Mike.

Luke
10-10-2005, 19:03
it may as well be a BB gun *plink*

Colonel Kebab
10-10-2005, 19:06
As far as I understand it, the lasgun is uberpowerful. It is nastier than the army stuff in use today(fluff/BL wise). Like most things in the game it is turned into a flashlight to balance gameplay. Bolters should be like krak grenade launchers.

I'd say the weapon that the fluff fits into the most is the AK series(ranging from AK-47, AKM and AK-74). It is cheap to produce and simple to maintain. You can kick the weapon around without damaging it. Although I think the Uplifting Primer says it's the death penalty from doing that...

Rommel21
10-10-2005, 19:12
Thanks for the replys guys, I have always liked 2 imagine the lasrifles to be star wars blasters with loads ammo, like 300 rounds/clip but recent material has lead to the conclusion that they are poxy laser pointer type things, ill just go on dreaming that they are star wars blasters!

Mike

Goblinardo
10-10-2005, 19:27
Thanks for the replys guys, I have always liked 2 imagine the lasrifles to be star wars blasters with loads ammo, like 300 rounds/clip but recent material has lead to the conclusion that they are poxy laser pointer type things, ill just go on dreaming that they are star wars blasters!


I know it isn't exactly official fluff, but Fire Warrior (the videogame) lasrifles are like SW blasters with loads of ammo.

Given the size of the Imperium, I'm willing to bet that both types of lasgun (laser beams and laser "bullets") exist and are in service.

Vicarocha
27-01-2006, 23:35
Most people seem to wonder, why the IG is equipped with "flashlights", for that other weapons similar to the ones used nowadays seem to be more fiting. So, I will present the advantages of a lasgun in a little short story about a SM scout sergeant teaching his recruits... :D

---------

„This is a lasgun, the standard weapon of the regular Imperial Guard’s infantrymen and for good reasons fielded in various patterns by most human troops you will encounter. It is cheap and high numbers of it can easily be produced in a short time-span just based on using planetary resources. And better than that, it is far superior to most common ballistic assault-rifles. Its only drawback is its lower semi-automated rate of fire, but this flaw will quickly be handled by any soldier used to it.
Despite the fact that it can be easily maintained and has no weight worth to be mentioned, its non-ballistic nature allows it even un-experienced soldiers to hit where they aim under nearly all exterior circumstances and nearly without a loss of force on impact. It is capable of completely puncturing through most kinds of body-armour and will cause instant combustions of the third degree, vaporising all tissue throughout the wound-canal and permanently destroying nerve-ends, for that later cybernetic augmentations couldn’t be adaptable, if the victim survives.
Keep in mind, that a common ammunition-clip stores enough energy to hold a fairly high amount of rounds and that a lucky shot or concentrated mass-fire could penetrate even power-armour, so don’t underestimate an enemy equipped with such a weapon.”

Suddenly, without warning the drill sergeant raised the gun and aimed on a target at the shooting range in one single liquid motion. As he pulled the trigger a loud clicking noise appeared and a thin beam bright as a pure sunray instantly drew a perfect line from the barrels end to the targets head for less than an eyelash. It completely punctured the iron-made target and left a circled hole as big as a coin, its edges hot glowing, burning metal. The intense, pricking smell of ozone filled the room.

“Remember that sound, recruits, for that it could save your lives to know, with what the enemy is shooting at you.”

---------

As you can see, I don't like the coloured Star Wars blaster beams idea ^^.

P.S.: Forgive me my English, I'm not a native speaker...
And forgive my my necro-posting, it is an old thread, but due to the fact it exists i don't wanted to open a new one for this topic.

Outlaw289
28-01-2006, 05:24
Nice post!

I always imagined lasguns to be just as your article described.

Hellguns seem to me to be very cool toys as well :D I wonder how fluffologically powerful they are :?

gLOBS
28-01-2006, 06:04
Heh I love this training session story.

Burnthem
28-01-2006, 10:49
ive always imagined lasguns to fire a continuous yet extremely brief beam, which is very thin, with it being visible onky when it passes through smoke/air particles etc, much like a real life laser.

This kind of thread crops up every couple of months, and the general conclusion is usually that Lasguns have the same penetrative qualities as a modern rifle, but lack stopping power and of course immediatly cauterise the wound, so blood loss is minimal.

Tom - Heretic
28-01-2006, 11:09
Nice work, Vicarocha :).

TheSonOfAbbadon
28-01-2006, 11:30
Just to clear a couple of things up, Lasweapons [pronounced 'Layz'] make a snapping noise [like electricity when it snaps from a metal ball to another, I suppose a Lascannon would make more of a boom noise] and is invisible unless it goes through smoke or wahtever [like actual lasers].

Also, according to the 3rd ed. rulebook a standard powerpack's power varies but it's usually good for about 40 shots, which is more than the 12 bullet clip an autogun gets, or the 10 shot plasma cap a plasma gun gets, or the 20-30 clip a boltgun gets, or the 6 burst promethium capsule a flamer gets etc. etc.

Yodhrin
28-01-2006, 12:26
Just to clear a couple of things up, Lasweapons [pronounced 'Layz'] make a snapping noise [like electricity when it snaps from a metal ball to another, I suppose a Lascannon would make more of a boom noise] and is invisible unless it goes through smoke or wahtever [like actual lasers].

Erm, where does this come from? First, it's pronounced as it sounds; "Lahz-gun", because "Las" is, I believe a slangword for Laser. Secondly, Lasweapons have been described in nearly every bit of fluff and shown in every bit of artwork to have a bright red, visible beam.

Lasweapons are nothing like modern lasers.

As for Hellweapons, I can vaguely remember reading a bit of fluff somewhere which described them as being able to blow the arm clean off a person in Flak armour or punch a fist-sized hole through them.

As far as I know, both weapons vary in how they are fired depending on where they are manufactured, ie, some will be semi-auto weapons, whereas others have a less-accurate mode of fire equivalent to an assault rifle on full-auto, which I assume would mean pulsing the beam as it leaves the weapon in order to seperate what would essentially be a single beam into seperate shots.

Sikkukkut
28-01-2006, 13:01
The only descriptions I can remember of las-shots come from Abnett stories. A laspistol fired at Eisenhorn has a shot described as a twinkling ball of pink light; in one of the Gaunt short stories an artisan who's found himself in battle accidentally describes the shot as a dagger of pale-red light, gone almost before you see it. He also describes the sound as a dry snapping noise like dead branches breaking, and mentions that Imperial propaganda films dub in great loud bangs over the shots instead.

TheSonOfAbbadon
28-01-2006, 13:14
Erm, where does this come from? First, it's pronounced as it sounds; "Lahz-gun", because "Las" is, I believe a slangword for Laser.

Laser, pronounced layz-ur, lasgun, pronounced layz-gun. It's not las [as in lasso] it's layz.


Secondly, Lasweapons have been described in nearly every bit of fluff and shown in every bit of artwork to have a bright red, visible beam.

Ok, now that, my friend, is what you call impossible, it cannot be seen until it touches something.


Lasweapons are nothing like modern lasers.

Modern lasers are concentrated beams of light whereas lasguns are beams of concentrated light? What?

Ophidicus
28-01-2006, 13:56
Erm, where does this come from? First, it's pronounced as it sounds; "Lahz-gun", because "Las" is, I believe a slangword for Laser.
"Laser, pronounced layz-ur, lasgun, pronounced layz-gun. It's not las [as in lasso] it's layz.

Shutupshutup!! The two pronunciations are entirely interchangeable. It doesn't matter one silly smelly jot. Silence lest Hofflenosh be pronounced(!) on thee! Damn I love that word.

And yeah, laser guns. General issue lasguns fire rapid bursts with "a distinctive snap or crack". So yeah, laser guns.

edit: Nobody saw that right?

Yodhrin
28-01-2006, 15:08
Laser, pronounced layz-ur, lasgun, pronounced layz-gun. It's not las [as in lasso] it's layz.

Las, pronounced Lahz, is slang(in the 40K universe) for Laser. It is a word in and of itself. Lasgun is a derivative of Las, not Laser. I explained that in the Pronunciations thread.



Ok, now that, my friend, is what you call impossible, it cannot be seen until it touches something.

To be honest, I dont really give a stuff what you think is possible. The 40K background says the Lasgun fires a beam of bright red light, therefor it does. Or are you going to start saying Plasma and Melta weapons could not exist("fusion" beam weapons? Not possible according to the same scientific laws you argue with regarding the Lasgun)? That Bolter weapons should not be given to any normal humans as they would be blown of their feet and have their ribcages shattered due to the recoil? See below for my point


Modern lasers are concentrated beams of light whereas lasguns are beams of concentrated light? What?

Modern lasers are concentrated light whereas lasguns are fictional weapons in a fictional future. It's called suspension of disbelief, and it's kind of necessary to enjoy future-fantasy stories like 40K.

TheSonOfAbbadon
28-01-2006, 15:25
Las, pronounced Lahz, is slang(in the 40K universe) for Laser. It is a word in and of itself. Lasgun is a derivative of Las, not Laser. I explained that in the Pronunciations thread.

Got any proof?


To be honest, I dont really give a stuff what you think is possible. The 40K background says the Lasgun fires a beam of bright red light, therefor it does. Or are you going to start saying Plasma and Melta weapons could not exist("fusion" beam weapons? Not possible according to the same scientific laws you argue with regarding the Lasgun)? That Bolter weapons should not be given to any normal humans as they would be blown of their feet and have their ribcages shattered due to the recoil? See below for my point

That's a good point. But Bolters are designed to have practially no recoil.


Modern lasers are concentrated light whereas lasguns are fictional weapons in a fictional future. It's called suspension of disbelief, and it's kind of necessary to enjoy future-fantasy stories like 40K.

Yes, but in the fictional universe, they're concentrated beams of light.

t-tauri
28-01-2006, 15:44
Laser, pronounced layz-ur, lasgun, pronounced layz-gun. It's not las [as in lasso] it's layz.

In which case the weapon would have to be spelt as lasegun.

TheSonOfAbbadon
28-01-2006, 15:46
No, because then it would be pronounced Layz-eh-gun.

Burnthem
28-01-2006, 16:43
guys guys guys, lets stop this stupid bickering, Lasgun can be pronounced any way you like, and thats that.

On the fluff side of things, there have been many interpretations of a Lasgun firing, and what it looks like. Personally, as said earlier, i prefer the modern laser look, much like a more invisible version of the Dawn of War lasguns, however many people have differing views, and it is totally possible that different Lasgun patterns, look different when fired.

so come on, everyone grow up a bit, and continue this conversation like adults...

damz451
28-01-2006, 16:48
lasguns r pretty powerful, they can cut through bodies fairly easily but against armoured targets its not much use. altho a laser weapon is fairly pointless as it will stop all bleeding (burning the flesh) and will make a small hole so unless u hit their head or organs it wont be very leathal.

Yodhrin
28-01-2006, 16:57
Got any proof?

Here's an idea; how about you prove it's pronounced Laze? If we're supposed to act more adult, fine, lets; in a debate the challenger presents the evidence to support his view and the defender rebuts it, you're challenging the commonly held view that it's pronounced as it sounds, so you can be the one to trawl through twenty years of fluff for the paragraphs here and there which confirm your argument(translation; Im too lazy to go through said twenty years of fluff :p ).




That's a good point. But Bolters are designed to have practially no recoil.

Woah, hold on there mate. You argue that the Lasgun should produce no visible beam because that's what current science dictates. There is no way, under current science, you could design a fully automatic rocket grenade launcher with the kind of muzzle velocities needed to punch through current tank armour with ease, and not have it kill the operator(unless it was vehicle turret mounted). You cant have it both ways.


Yes, but in the fictional universe, they're concentrated beams of light....

...which have a coherent red beam. I really dont see why you're arguing this point, the pronunciation will never really be settled until someone less lazy than me looks up the fluff I remember reading, or a studio employee says one way or the other, this, however, really cant be argued.

The background says it has a visible beam, which may not make sense and which you may not like, but that doesnt change what the background says. I hate most of the Necron fluff with a passion, but I still have to accept that it is the "official" version of events.

TheSonOfAbbadon
28-01-2006, 17:07
:cries:
lasguns r pretty powerful, they can cut through bodies fairly easily but against armoured targets its not much use. altho a laser weapon is fairly pointless as it will stop all bleeding (burning the flesh) and will make a small hole so unless u hit their head or organs it wont be very leathal.

Learn to spell.

P.S: Yodhrin seems right about everything :cries:

Outlaw289
28-01-2006, 17:12
which is more than the 12 bullet clip an autogun gets,

That was an error in the rulebook. There is no way a double stacked assault rifle magazine only holds 12 rounds. However, if for some reason it WAS only 12 rounds, they should've been bigger

Nehcrum
28-01-2006, 20:42
That's a good point. But Bolters are designed to have practially no recoil.

Woah, hold on there mate. You argue that the Lasgun should produce no visible beam because that's what current science dictates. There is no way, under current science, you could design a fully automatic rocket grenade launcher with the kind of muzzle velocities needed to punch through current tank armour with ease, and not have it kill the operator(unless it was vehicle turret mounted). You cant have it both ways.

The real problems lies in the fact that what is considered a normal infantryman in 40K is a WS4 BS4 S4 T4 Space marine armed with a bolter.
The highly-trained, genetically enhanced supersoldiers, the best the empire of man has, armed with the very best weapons the empire can provide....is seen as the regular soldier.

The Lasgun is a good weapon, it's just overshadowed by everyone else toting around various superweapons.
The Bolter is from I remember a fairly typhical old-fashioned assault rifle. Just that it's designed to fire decidely larger projectiles which are grenades rather than bullets. This of course results in a large recoil, too large for a normal human being, which is why they are only commonly carried by the much-larger-than-a-normal-human space marines, which with their size, strength and power armor can take the recoil with their shoulders still intact.


As for punching through tank armor....compared to modern day main battle tanks, the WH40K tanks have almost paper-thin armor....both judging from the sight of models and from what can punch through them.

Brother Smith
28-01-2006, 22:42
Woah, hold on there mate. You argue that the Lasgun should produce no visible beam because that's what current science dictates. There is no way, under current science, you could design a fully automatic rocket grenade launcher with the kind of muzzle velocities needed to punch through current tank armour with ease, and not have it kill the operator(unless it was vehicle turret mounted). You cant have it both ways.

Wrong. Bolters shoot with very little velocity and then are propelled by rockets. Very innacurate though.

sulla
28-01-2006, 22:52
Wrong. Bolters shoot with very little velocity and then are propelled by rockets. Very innacurate though.

Regardless, they (bolters) are powerful enough to heavily damage or destroy armoured vehicles (AV10)... We can't do this now.

Kage2020
28-01-2006, 22:57
Right, as normal a thread discussing the damaging potential of lasguns is held up by the semi-qualitative terminology. No fault or blame being mentioned here, but we're essentially playing 'War' and saying that 'I shot you, you're dead!' and 'No I'm not, I've got armour on!', etc. The one advantage of RPG is that it lets you move beyond this aspect of "Let's Pretend!", whether you agree with the specific abstraction (game mechanics) or not.

So, to answer the original question from my perspective?

Composite bow (average), 1d+1
Matchlock Musket, 4d damage.
AK-47, 5d+1 damage
M16, 5d damage.
Lasgun, 12d damage
Bolter, 4d(10) (armour divisor of 10).
For the most part this seems to work for me. So, in short, a lasgun is far more powerful than a modern rifle but at the same time doesn't have the ammunition options.

Kage

Vicarocha
29-01-2006, 01:44
Ahoi,
Ahm... hmmm, such a discussion wasn't realy my intention, but ok...:cool:

For the sound:
As for a fact I think "snapping" or "cracking" would fit the specific sound of a lasgun at best, but as I said I'm not a native speaker and i had to use a german version of the 3rd Ed. RB where it says that a lasguns sound of fire is a "Knacken", which I translated with "clicking". So, call it lost in translation or see it as I see it: a marginal difference not really worth the mentioning.

For the coolness I just see it as a really loud noise, equal to a modern days assault-rifle gunshot.

For the look of it:
As Burnthem said it: "however many people have differing views, and it is totally possible that different Lasgun patterns, look different when fired."
I just prefer the colourless concept, imho it gives the whole thing a more "serious" style.

For the pronounciation:
No need to be pedantic on this point as well. There are enough arguments for each of the examples brought up and all of them might exist side on side equally. (Burnthem just said this in a similar way before, too)

@ damz451

altho a laser weapon is fairly pointless as it will stop all bleeding (burning the flesh) and will make a small hole so unless u hit their head or organs it wont be very leathal.


Say that again when a a line of tissue throughout your body is permanently vaporised in less than an eyelash. Even if the beam would be just as wide as a needle the pain could take you out instantly and it is most likely that several organs are damaged in a lethal way (you won't say that putting needles long enough to puncture through the whole of your body would be a pointless thing for killing someone). But a laser-beam from a lasgun would have more the wide of a finger or even more. You will have a hole shot right through your body. And btw: The 3rd Ed. RB even speaks of a small explosion of the tissue due to the rapid heat-change ;) (so penetration isn't thaaat neccessary)...

cailus
29-01-2006, 04:10
Right, as normal a thread discussing the damaging potential of lasguns is held up by the semi-qualitative terminology. No fault or blame being mentioned here, but we're essentially playing 'War' and saying that 'I shot you, you're dead!' and 'No I'm not, I've got armour on!', etc. The one advantage of RPG is that it lets you move beyond this aspect of "Let's Pretend!", whether you agree with the specific abstraction (game mechanics) or not.

So, to answer the original question from my perspective?

Composite bow (average), 1d+1
Matchlock Musket, 4d damage.
AK-47, 5d+1 damage
M16, 5d damage.
Lasgun, 12d damage
Bolter, 4d(10) (armour divisor of 10).
For the most part this seems to work for me. So, in short, a lasgun is far more powerful than a modern rifle but at the same time doesn't have the ammunition options.

Kage

The only problem I'd find with lasguns is what someone described previously - the lasgun burns a hole and immediately close the wound (cauterization). In effect it's a very sterile humane weapon. But as the wound has been sealed, anything but a hit to a major organ will not stop the enemy - especially an Ork or Nid. A conventional bullet on the other hand shatters bone, arteries and muscle, causes bleeding and often gets lodged in the body and causes further medical problems.

The lasgun does have a few advantages - according to fluff you can recharge it throguh any power source including fire. This cuts down on logistics.

The lack of recoil is good for poorly armed conscripts.

The weapon is easy and cheap to produce.

The lasgun would work in space I suppose (I have no idea about the physics of lasers in the void of space).

It is interesting that Ork weapons are S4. Given that the heavy stubber is S4- this means most Ork weapons are at least 12.7 mm (0.50 cal).

Kage2020
29-01-2006, 04:26
And then you get into semi-qualitative terms that have been shown to be relatively useless, as evidenced from the past three-and-a-half pages of discussion. But that's fair enough. Likewise, reference to S3 or S4, or wargame terminology in general, tends to defeat discussion more than anything else.

As to cauterisation, beam diameter has a factor to play there.

That's just me. Thought that I would try and be constructive rather than playing 'war'.

/Kage[

Outlaw289
29-01-2006, 04:53
As to cauterisation, beam diameter has a factor to play there.

Thats what I always figured. Most people say "its not that great because it cauterizes the wound". I always figured "well maybe there aint much left to cauterize" :chrome:

Hellebore
29-01-2006, 07:49
It depends on the definition of a LASgun. If the LAS is short for LASER, then it must conform to modern laser principles, however if it is something else, then make up what ever you want.

As for terminology, if a word possesses an 'E' in it the A becomes long, like in lAser. If there is no E, then it is a short A, ie in As. Thus Las is pronounced LAZ, according to english conventions.

As the weapon itself: if it is actually a LASER then it would follow several principles:

1: It would travel at the speed of light- noone could dodge it.
2: it would appear as a single beam, not several 'pulses' ala Star Wars. when something is travelling at 300,000+ km/sec it is impossible to make it fire in distinctive bursts.
3: Current industrial lasers can cut through 0.5cm of steel in around 1-2 seconds, if a 40k lasgun is at least as advanced as this then it would only need a second of contact with a target to burn a hole in it.
4: Lasers are RECOILESS- well they may produce opposite force as per Newton, but it wouldn't even make a quark blink, let alone a person.

Thus we can safely conclude:

LASGUNS are not LASERS.

and 40k is stupid.

hellebore

Burnthem
29-01-2006, 09:17
Umm, Lasguns ARE lasers, as stated by almost every background book you can find, as well as the rulebook...

The problem is that alot of people want them to look like Star Wars blasters, with visible bursts, and many people want them to look like more more modern lasers, invisible and extremely fast.

seeing as this is the umpteenth time this thread has appeared, i advocate that we all just stick with our own opinions and leave it at that, i doubt any of us are going to change our minds...

TheSonOfAbbadon
29-01-2006, 11:43
Ok, let's sort out a few things.

1. The Lasgun makes a snapping noise, it says so in the 3rd edition rulebook.

2. I believe Star Wars blasters are plasma guns, not lasers.

3. The US has made a laser that can fire over 500 burst in 0.2 seconds which can punch through an inch or two of steel. The laser is the size of a commercial jet plane.

4. LASGUNS ARE LASERS. I really don't see where the whole 'Lasers are recoiless' thing comes into this.

Burnthem
29-01-2006, 12:18
star wars blasters are plasma guns, as said in star wars fluff, they fire bolts of superheated gas, plasma in other words. The large weapons on star wars capital ships ARE sometimes lasers though.

20th Century Boy
29-01-2006, 12:57
I'm sure that any weapon which uses light (laser, heat, waves, any near massless form) as it's means of energy transportation should be capable to change it's beam to any light in the visible spectrum. So, I think a Lasgun is capable to switch from invisible to red, to any colour, easily.

Then, based on real life laser-technology (yes, forgive me), I think a laser would make a *cracking* sound from the superheating air. And it would evaporate soft, waterfilled tissue in a small explosion. As well as high energy-lasers that hit very hard crystaline barriers (metals, rigid armourplates), would make those snap - as in explode, and not melt through.

Burnthem
29-01-2006, 14:17
yes it could be possible for a lasgun fire both 'visible' light and 'invisible light', depending on the preference of the firer, it being an optional tracer mode.

good idea, and one which could overcome many an argument, one player prefers to have his guard with tracer light, and another might prefer to not have it.....bingo!!

Hellebore
30-01-2006, 13:47
Ok, let's sort out a few things.

1. The Lasgun makes a snapping noise, it says so in the 3rd edition rulebook.

2. I believe Star Wars blasters are plasma guns, not lasers.

3. The US has made a laser that can fire over 500 burst in 0.2 seconds which can punch through an inch or two of steel. The laser is the size of a commercial jet plane.

4. LASGUNS ARE LASERS. I really don't see where the whole 'Lasers are recoiless' thing comes into this.


Oh, i totally agree that a lasgun IS a laser gun, but you missed my entire point.

Following the physics of REAL lasers, almost NONE of the attributes assigned to a lasgun are caused by REAL lasers.

A laser does not make sound, and a laser IS effectively recoiless.

Photons have no mass (or very little depending on which physicist you talk to) and thus cannot produce any force by which they may cause RECOIL.

hellebore

TheSonOfAbbadon
30-01-2006, 15:51
A laser does not make sound, and a laser IS effectively recoiless.

Whoever said Lasguns had recoil?

Burnthem
30-01-2006, 16:01
common sense dictates that lasguns dont have recoil, and thats how i imagine them. IIRC the snapping noise comes more from the rapid discharge generator used to power the gun rather than the laser itself...

TheSonOfAbbadon
30-01-2006, 16:05
And before someone says 'But they have buttstocks to absorb recoi' the buttstock could merely be there for aiming.

Burnthem
30-01-2006, 16:07
Exactly, try aiming anything without a butstock, its a pain in the ass.

Much as i like Dan Abnett, i blame him for the common misconception about Lasguns having recoil...

Nehcrum
30-01-2006, 17:10
ACtually, to discuss recoil or no recoil, you have to get awful scientific.

Not even the scientists can accurately answer this, the main question lies in if a photon (a "light unit") is a wave or a particle. It shows the properties of both, where as a wave has no mass, a particle does.

If you assume a photon to be a particle, and has some weight it can somehow deliver (solar sails are dependant on this, that photons bounce the the reflective material in the sail, giving it a "push" to go forwards, extremely small push, but since there is no air resistance in space, it will slowly accelerate, reaching top speed will take many many years, but will potentially be very very fast (will eventually approach light speed = the same speed as the photons hitting the sail)). Therefore, the more photons are concentrated into a single shot, the higher the possible recoil will be. And at the same time, the more the photons are concentrated, the shorter you have to "light up" the target for the intended effect.

Therefore our modern day industrial lasers which can cut through 1 cm of solid steel in a few seconds could easily be made into something much more powerful, by incresing their concentration.(the density of the photons).
They don't do this today, because as of yet, it is not nearly powerful enough to replace a conventional weapon of the same size. And in the industry, they want it the way it is, increasing it's power means increasing the heat on the object they are cutting, which means it will melt more and the laser will lose that scalpel surgery result that they are using it for in the first place.


So the conundrum lies in the particle effect of a photon. I'd say that lasguns got a recoil, but it's fairly small, close to non-existant, unless the photon density is really high (a lascannon may have a reasonable recoil due to this).

As for Newton's third law (All forces occur in pairs, and these two forces are equal in magnitude and opposite in direction.). Or simply, the force coming out of the barrel equals the force felt in the firer's shoulder.
Lasguns, unlike most modern day weapons, are based on energy, not on kinetics, to affect the target.

I would be more concerned about the heavy bolter, which looks like a beefed up machinegun. Looking at the size of the rounds for it, that one gotta have a recoil like a kicking horse.

Brother Smith
30-01-2006, 17:24
ACtually, to discuss recoil or no recoil, you have to get awful scientific.

Not even the scientists can accurately answer this, the main question lies in if a photon (a "light unit") is a wave or a particle. It shows the properties of both, where as a wave has no mass, a particle does.

If you assume a photon to be a particle, and has some weight it can somehow deliver (solar sails are dependant on this, that photons bounce the the reflective material in the sail, giving it a "push" to go forwards, extremely small push, but since there is no air resistance in space, it will slowly accelerate, reaching top speed will take many many years, but will potentially be very very fast (will eventually approach light speed = the same speed as the photons hitting the sail)). Therefore, the more photons are concentrated into a single shot, the higher the possible recoil will be. And at the same time, the more the photons are concentrated, the shorter you have to "light up" the target for the intended effect.

Therefore our modern day industrial lasers which can cut through 1 cm of solid steel in a few seconds could easily be made into something much more powerful, by incresing their concentration.(the density of the photons).
They don't do this today, because as of yet, it is not nearly powerful enough to replace a conventional weapon of the same size. And in the industry, they want it the way it is, increasing it's power means increasing the heat on the object they are cutting, which means it will melt more and the laser will lose that scalpel surgery result that they are using it for in the first place.


So the conundrum lies in the particle effect of a photon. I'd say that lasguns got a recoil, but it's fairly small, close to non-existant, unless the photon density is really high (a lascannon may have a reasonable recoil due to this).

As for Newton's third law (All forces occur in pairs, and these two forces are equal in magnitude and opposite in direction.). Or simply, the force coming out of the barrel equals the force felt in the firer's shoulder.
Lasguns, unlike most modern day weapons, are based on energy, not on kinetics, to affect the target.

I would be more concerned about the heavy bolter, which looks like a beefed up machinegun. Looking at the size of the rounds for it, that one gotta have a recoil like a kicking horse.

As I already explained, Boltguns are rocket launchers.

The Tortured One
30-01-2006, 17:45
I don't have any of my 40k stuff with me, but IIRC doesn't the boltgun have 2 phase ammunition? the first is a small caliber discharge to get the shell going, the second is the rocket igniting thus accelerating it out of the barrel. The inquisition wars trilogy made it quite clear what a boltgun sounds like, in that you hear both ignitions. I've heard that a bolter has the recoil similar in kick to a .22 caliber weapon. The reason it is not issued to common soldiers is that bolter rounds are difficult to manufacture and the boltgun itself requires meticulous cleaning in order to remain operative.

as for the cauterization effect in lasguns (I say its lahz-guns, simply out of preference; lahz rolls off my tounge easier than saying layz) I think its a minor trade-off, considering it turns everything within 3 inches of the entry point into well done steak. Even if it misses the heart, if the shot is within a few inches it's still going to literally cook the heart (and probably take a lung or two as well) which can potentially be far more devastating than the kinetic effect of a conventional bullet.

I like this interpretation of the lasgun because such a brutal weapon fits perfectly with the overall themes of the Imperium. A brutal war machine for a brutal regime, the only good opponent is a dead opponent.

now I'm no physicist, and I never claimed to be one, so this question is for any of you would be physicists; isn't it possible that the beam's visibility comes from the photons bouncing off the air within the atmosphere? I would imagine that such a huge concentration of light photons would produce a rather intense looking beam, especially in thick atmospheric conditions. Though I can't imagine what would produce the muzzle flash.

my favorite reiteration of lasguns was their interpretation in Dawn of War. It's always how I imagined a lasgun to look. Hellguns are pretty much the same thing, but their extended power packs allows them to fire a much higher volume of shots. I hated Firewarrior's imagining of lasguns, but then again, Firewarrior was a pretty mediocre FPS to begin with. I mean come on, Chaos Marines are supposed to have 10,000 years of combat experience, why are they crossing their own lines of fire?

Nehcrum
30-01-2006, 18:19
I don't have any of my 40k stuff with me, but IIRC doesn't the boltgun have 2 phase ammunition? the first is a small caliber discharge to get the shell going, the second is the rocket igniting thus accelerating it out of the barrel. The inquisition wars trilogy made it quite clear what a boltgun sounds like, in that you hear both ignitions. I've heard that a bolter has the recoil similar in kick to a .22 caliber weapon. The reason it is not issued to common soldiers is that bolter rounds are difficult to manufacture and the boltgun itself requires meticulous cleaning in order to remain operative.

Could be an explanation. There are APCs (most notably versions of the russian/soviet BMP that uses a cannon like that, a small charge that just pops the round out of the barrel then a almost rocket-like secondary charge to propel it.



as for the cauterization effect in lasguns (I say its lahz-guns, simply out of preference; lahz rolls off my tounge easier than saying layz) I think its a minor trade-off, considering it turns everything within 3 inches of the entry point into well done steak. Even if it misses the heart, if the shot is within a few inches it's still going to literally cook the heart (and probably take a lung or two as well) which can potentially be far more devastating than the kinetic effect of a conventional bullet.
Very true. The laser beam wouldn't just put a neat clean hole....it burns a hole through heat, which will of course affect any tissue surrounding the hole itself.
And if enough energy is generated on heat for it to dissipate into the tissue or air, it might very well end up becoming a small explosion as the beam hits the target.



now I'm no physicist, and I never claimed to be one, so this question is for any of you would be physicists; isn't it possible that the beam's visibility comes from the photons bouncing off the air within the atmosphere? I would imagine that such a huge concentration of light photons would produce a rather intense looking beam, especially in thick atmospheric conditions. Though I can't imagine what would produce the muzzle flash.
Light doesn't bounce on just air, as it's a wave (here we go with the wave vs particle again) it will pass right through most gases. Light will only change direction when it hits something more solid, like dense water vapor (light is diverted and split into different spectrums = rainbow). Since a laser is concentrated light of the same wavelength, it will still be a concentrated beam when hitting something, the entire beam will deviate (unless of course only a part of the beam hits, then that part will deviate). Red light is the wavelength that travels furthest, which is why it is used in a laser.

The problem with light, is that you only see it when it reaches your eyes, you cannot see light passing in front of you, only if it somehow hits something and is reflected towards you. "Normal" light is filled with waves of all wavelengths, so it will divert on many things and in ALL directions, including yours if you stand in a straight line to it. Since Laser is just a single wavelength, this dispersion will not occur and you can only see it when it hits something.

A laser beam would be rather visible on a battlefield tho, if you ever blow dust or some other powder on a laser beam, you would see it shine up red (cheack various movies, using spray cans or other to detect laser tripwires). And since a battlefield would probably be filled with smoke and others, Beams should be shining up here and there all the time.
The natural problem is of course that when the laser beam hits something like smoke, it will "light" up what it hits and bounce in all directions (that's why you see it, becomes it then reaches your eyes from this all.direction ricochet). But what hits those smoke particles is then tapped from the total beam. So the more smoke there is on the battlefield the more it will decrease the range, power and accuracy of the beam.

Edit: Muzzle flash....neither can I. The only things that would come to mind be either the beam hitting debris or something, that gathers right at the barrel that is blown up by the beam as it fires. The other would be that there is some kind of focus lens placed there to concentrate it or something, and that it's either malfunctioning a bit on most guns or that it has an unacceptable "bleed" on it already from the start.

my favorite reiteration of lasguns was their interpretation in Dawn of War. It's always how I imagined a lasgun to look. Hellguns are pretty much the same thing, but their extended power packs allows them to fire a much higher volume of shots. I hated Firewarrior's imagining of lasguns, but then again, Firewarrior was a pretty mediocre FPS to begin with. I mean come on, Chaos Marines are supposed to have 10,000 years of combat experience, why are they crossing their own lines of fire?
Got stuck on Firewarrior in the boarding scenario, after I ran into that door after blowing the cables or whatever, no new door opened up....
I also never understood why the Pulse rifle was so weak....

Anyways, maybe they were all khorne berserkers, half mad.
Overall, the whole 10'000 years old chaos marines sound very odd to me....people tend to die in war, anyone fighting a war knows that you need constant replacement because your forces keep dying, yet the CSM have somehow managed to survive on their troops for 10'000 years of pretty much constant war without need replacements....

Burnthem
30-01-2006, 18:52
IIRC lasers arent all red, and red doesnt travel the furthest of all the light spectrum, in fact its the shortest, why do you think the military use red lights? its becuase they are the hardest to spot from a distance.

IIRC the colour of a laser depends on the substance used to produce the beam, ruby lasers are red, but neon lasers are anything from blue to green.

As for muzzle flashes, IMO thats just artistic licence, and i just ignore it....

Nehcrum
30-01-2006, 18:54
IIRC lasers arent all red, and red doesnt travel the furthest of all the light spectrum, in fact its the shortest, why do you think the military use red lights? its becuase they are the hardest to spot from a distance.

IIRC the colour of a laser depends on the substance used to produce the beam, ruby lasers are red, but neon lasers are anything from blue to green.

As for muzzle flashes, IMO thats just artistic licence, and i just ignore it....
Actually, the military use red light because it doesn't disrupt night vision like normal light does.
The light travles shortest is green I think, that's what most Command APCs has inside their crew compartments in case someone opens the door.

Burnthem
30-01-2006, 19:09
no mate, im in the army, and i can tell you categorically that red light is used becuase it cant be seen easily in the dark. no matter what colour light is used, it all whites out night vision devices.

(a small note on night vision, it is artificially made green, because the human eye can see more shades of green than any other colour)

As for APC's having green light in case someone opens a door? where did you see this? im not saying you are wrong, it just seems wierd to me, british vehicles have switches that automatically switch off al interior lighting if a door is opened...

Nehcrum
30-01-2006, 19:18
Swedish Army. Driver/gunner on a command APC.
We got that switch too....but with a few different settings.
On at all times.
On when closed, switches to green when opened.
On when closed, switches off when opened.
Off at all times.

So I'm in the army too....and I wasn't talking about night vision devices, I was talking about the human night vision, the time it takes to adapt the pupil to see properly in the dark after having seen bright light. Red light does not affect the pupil the same way normal light does.

Getz
30-01-2006, 19:24
As a Scientist, I can categorically state that Red light has the longest wavelength of the visible spectrum, making it the hardest to see at night...

This would be a good reason for using Red Lasers... They would have relatively low visabilty at range.

Philip S
30-01-2006, 19:44
Light doesn't bounce on just air, as it's a wave (here we go with the wave vs particle again) it will pass right through most gases.
Light is affected by air (the molecules), it's the reason the sky is blue, as blue light has such a short wave length it is even scattered by our atmosphere.


The light travles shortest is green I think,.
Blue (then green then red).

As for las-guns something similar to a CO2 laser technology combined with x-ray laser and gamma laser technologies.

I figure the penetrating rays heat up the surface of the target to get rid of any reflectivity (plasma ball?) thus letting the main CO2 like laser deliver the damage when striking the plasma.

Perhaps bung some microwaves in there just for fun :D

Philip

Outlaw289
30-01-2006, 20:14
Anyways, maybe they were all khorne berserkers, half mad.
Overall, the whole 10'000 years old chaos marines sound very odd to me....people tend to die in war, anyone fighting a war knows that you need constant replacement because your forces keep dying, yet the CSM have somehow managed to survive on their troops for 10'000 years of pretty much constant war without need replacements....

I attirbute this to "OOohh spooky dark Chaos Magick!11". I guess when a CSM dies, their Lord will ask their God of choice for a favor of revival, and their god (or more likely that Lord's sorcerors) uses warp magic to conjure the dead CSM back to life. I guess you could say this process takes awhile/is very painstaking/etc etc to cover up why CSMs don't respawn 3 seconds after dying, but its handy for explaining why CSMs havent run out in M36

Hellebore
30-01-2006, 21:34
The most effective lasers are X-ray lasers and masers.

Recoil is ascribed to lasguns in every piece of fluff about them, usually obliquely by having the firer rock backward from the shot (see Gaunts Ghosts).

And even if a photon DOES have mass, it is SO small that only a laser pumping out photons in improbable numbers would actually place enough opposite force on the gun to cause noticeable recoil.


But if we want to get onto realism in scifi guns in general, plasma guns are completely inaccurate, as any flame thrower is effectively a plasma gun.

Attempting to create a magnetic field in a sphere moving away from the gun without some form of field projector INSIDE the plasma ball is very unlikely.

And as the plasma gun would be firing 'industrial' strength flames, 6000 degrees of heat is too high to prevent any solid from becoming liquid- so said solid field projector would just melt anyway.

And the boltgun IS supposed to be a two part weapon- gas shot then self propellant stage.

Both of these make the bolter a very slow firing weapon, but also the most probable of all 40k weapons (requiring very little technology NOW, to create compared to a man portable laser weapon).

However, this would make bolter ammo very slow, an autogun would have a higher velocity.

You could actually dodge a bolter shell, but not a LASGUN (due to the whole pesky speed of light thing).

So the stats in 40k should be alot different between a lasgun and a bolter.

hellebore

Philip S
30-01-2006, 21:53
With out some very strange science plasma guns wouldn’t have any range, the best would be a plasma cutter, but that’s hardly sci-fi!

As for Bolters I like to think that the first charge blasts the round out at high velocities much like a normal assault rifle, but then the rocket motor kicks in to further accelerate the bolt to speeds in excess of mach 2 or 3! The ‘bolt’ design is used to obtain these speeds because firing a bullet at mach 2/3 would even put a marine on his ass.

Non-marine bolters are less powerful and the bolt leaving the barrel at sub-sonic speed and reaching around march 1 or 2.

This means a bolter could have a rate of fire much like a modern assault rifle, but the bolts hit at incredibly high (multi-mach) velocities yet the shooter only feels a kick similar a modern assault rifle.

As for 40K assault rifles I quite like the G11 as a base.

Philip

Nehcrum
30-01-2006, 21:57
But if we want to get onto realism in scifi guns in general, plasma guns are completely inaccurate, as any flame thrower is effectively a plasma gun.

Attempting to create a magnetic field in a sphere moving away from the gun without some form of field projector INSIDE the plasma ball is very unlikely.

And as the plasma gun would be firing 'industrial' strength flames, 6000 degrees of heat is too high to prevent any solid from becoming liquid- so said solid field projector would just melt anyway.

The plasma gun is not a flame thrower, it heats a blob of plasma, keeps it seperated from any solids by having it suspended by magetism inside it, then uses magnetism to propel the plasmablob as a shot.
Would probably be quite inaccurate, but would be more like a magnetic crossbow than a flamethrower.

Hellebore
31-01-2006, 04:54
The plasma gun is not a flame thrower, it heats a blob of plasma, keeps it seperated from any solids by having it suspended by magetism inside it, then uses magnetism to propel the plasmablob as a shot.
Would probably be quite inaccurate, but would be more like a magnetic crossbow than a flamethrower.

Do you know what plasma is?

It is defined as highly energised particles, with their outer valence shell stripped of electrons making them VERY jumpy. Do you know what fire is? It is the product of exciting the atoms of the burning material to such a degree it strips their outer electrons, forming PLASMA. Admittedly not ALL of the visible part of a flame is plasma, much of it is gas reflecting light.

Lightning is plasma as well.

Thus a flame thrower IS effectively a plasma gun, as it is FIRING plasma.

@Philip, I don't know about that. It seems way to fast. Sound travels on average 340 m/s at sea level, making Mach 2 almost 700 m/s- no RPG equivalent weapons have muzzle velocities anywhere near that. Even heavy 0.50 calibre sniper rifles only fire at around 850 m/s, and they are using conventional chemical explosives.

A bolt gun fires a 0.75 calibre shell (19.05mm) under LOW velocity (specifically says so in the fluff description) before its internal propellant kicks in and it goes faster.

RPG's do the same thing, but they have around 35 calibre rounds (889mm), and an effective range of only around 400-800 metres. They are launched with a gunpowder booster at around 115 m/s, but the internal propellant increases this to 295 m/s - still less than Mach 1.

Bearing in mind that the bolt shell is approximately 40mm in length and 19.05 mm in diameter, it has very little room for internal propellant, no matter how efficient it may be.

Of course, if this is consistent with your own interpretation of 40k, then I can't really argue against it- creator is god after all.

hellebore

TheSonOfAbbadon
31-01-2006, 16:52
I attirbute this to "OOohh spooky dark Chaos Magick!11". I guess when a CSM dies, their Lord will ask their God of choice for a favor of revival, and their god (or more likely that Lord's sorcerors) uses warp magic to conjure the dead CSM back to life. I guess you could say this process takes awhile/is very painstaking/etc etc to cover up why CSMs don't respawn 3 seconds after dying, but its handy for explaining why CSMs havent run out in M36

Um, no, the answer is cloning, what do you think Fabius Bile was doing all those years?


ACtually, to discuss recoil or no recoil, you have to get awful scientific.

Not even the scientists can accurately answer this, the main question lies in if a photon (a "light unit") is a wave or a particle. It shows the properties of both, where as a wave has no mass, a particle does.

If you assume a photon to be a particle, and has some weight it can somehow deliver (solar sails are dependant on this, that photons bounce the the reflective material in the sail, giving it a "push" to go forwards, extremely small push, but since there is no air resistance in space, it will slowly accelerate, reaching top speed will take many many years, but will potentially be very very fast (will eventually approach light speed = the same speed as the photons hitting the sail)). Therefore, the more photons are concentrated into a single shot, the higher the possible recoil will be. And at the same time, the more the photons are concentrated, the shorter you have to "light up" the target for the intended effect.

Therefore our modern day industrial lasers which can cut through 1 cm of solid steel in a few seconds could easily be made into something much more powerful, by incresing their concentration.(the density of the photons).
They don't do this today, because as of yet, it is not nearly powerful enough to replace a conventional weapon of the same size. And in the industry, they want it the way it is, increasing it's power means increasing the heat on the object they are cutting, which means it will melt more and the laser will lose that scalpel surgery result that they are using it for in the first place.

So the conundrum lies in the particle effect of a photon. I'd say that lasguns got a recoil, but it's fairly small, close to non-existant, unless the photon density is really high (a lascannon may have a reasonable recoil due to this).

As for Newton's third law (All forces occur in pairs, and these two forces are equal in magnitude and opposite in direction.). Or simply, the force coming out of the barrel equals the force felt in the firer's shoulder.
Lasguns, unlike most modern day weapons, are based on energy, not on kinetics, to affect the target.

Light has been proven to travel as a wave, but it does sometimes have the properties of a particle.

Therefore Lasgun=No recoil.

Burnthem
31-01-2006, 17:03
technically, if a bolt got faster as it got further away, a bolt gun would actually be more dangerous the farther away it was, as the bolt would
have more time to accelerate!

Outlaw289
31-01-2006, 18:02
Um, no, the answer is cloning, what do you think Fabius Bile was doing all those years?

:eyebrows: Sorrrrryyyyy :rolleyes:

TheSonOfAbbadon
31-01-2006, 18:06
You better be!

Oh, and no matter how dangerous the impact of the bolt hitting you is, the explosion will probably kill you anyway.

Philip S
31-01-2006, 19:16
Bearing in mind that the bolt shell is approximately 40mm in length and 19.05 mm in diameter, it has very little room for internal propellant, no matter how efficient it may be.
I always thought they were bigger; judging by the size of the shell casings they just seemed larger or at least longer (artistic licence?).


technically, if a bolt got faster as it got further away, a bolt gun would actually be more dangerous the farther away it was, as the bolt would
have more time to accelerate!
Yep. And if a bolt needs to be up to full velocity to crack marine armour that probably explains why they switch to close combat weapons at short range because the bolts explode on the surface rather than penetrating.

So marine have a two systems, bolters hit hard at range, then close combat up close (personally I think all marines should have power weapons with a pistol shield combo, with full bolters are only used to get close and then dropped).


Oh, and no matter how dangerous the impact of the bolt hitting you is, the explosion will probably kill you anyway.
A Bolt hitting at mach 2 or 3 would cause huge amounts of damage, but if this amount of speed is needed to crack marine armour then once it has and travelled through the body it probably wouldn’t exit (hit back of marine armour) and explode inside.

Suggests the bolter was originally designed to take down armoured opponents (Vehicles and Iron Men?).

I’m thinking the marines uses the Bolter primarily to close (to get inside a building) then switches to HtoH weapons for the majority of the killing, with the pistol to get those who flee.

Philip

Burnthem
31-01-2006, 20:20
Bolters are .75 inch, unfortunatly GW artists like to show large shells being ejected, which are totally out of scale to the marines firing them! The shells should be about the size of the marines little finger!

Philip S
31-01-2006, 20:30
Bolters are .75 inch, unfortunatly GW artists like to show large shells being ejected, which are totally out of scale to the marines firing them! The shells should be about the size of the marines little finger!
I like to think that Bolts are a bit like a sabot rounds (as it sounds appropriate), hence the huge shell cases.

Philip