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Sir_Lunchalot
29-03-2008, 05:59
I propose a nice little thread for those of us who love to max out our hero choices. Now I'm no expert tactician, so let's have some good advice guys!

We'll start by defining herohammer: Herohammer is any army built with the maximum number of characters allowed. IMO, all armies are good at it to some degree, just differently. for example, my Tzeentch chaos army is good at it because that Lord on a dragon, flanked by a pair of aspiring champions, can fight their way through mostly anything, if I maneuvre it right. Dogs of War also do herohammer very well because they can max out their character choices for under 400 points in a 2k game.

We can split herohammer armies into three categories: strong, moderate and weak. Strong Herohammer armies are armies like Chaos, Vampires, and such, which use the characters as the main killyness of the army. In these armies you are relying on your characters to provide a significant number of kills, and in some cases, the majority of kills.

Moderate Herohammer armies are armies like High elves or Wood Elves, where you can expect your heroes to do a lot, but they won't form the core of your fighting force.

Weak Herohammer armies are armies like Skaven or Empire. In these armies, heroes will never be the main fighting force, but are good for a completely different reason: they're cheap! you've selected your army, and you've got 90 poitns left over. why not buy a hero with armor and shield? these are the armies where you can easily afford to max out heroes without detracting too much from your model count.

of course we also need to divide this into magic and fighty and mixed ...

Your thoughts?

DoomedToRepeatIt
29-03-2008, 17:05
I'd actually push the new HE into the "Strong category." At 2,000 points, you can have two dragons. There's no other army that can cram two big beasties that size into that size list.

Figure on, a Prince on Star Dragon, a Mage on Sun Dragon (aka Dragon Mage), which is your lord and three different hero slots (because the dragons count as heroes). That's all your slots, true, but still. Two dragons is lot of "killy."

SilverWarlock
29-03-2008, 17:33
skaven with a seer and 2-3 warplock engis are also quite killy and nowhere near cheap ;)

however the fighting characters for skaven are.

W0lf
29-03-2008, 20:06
3 Warlock engineers and a Seer is hardly 'weak'

2D6 S5 tends to kill a lot.

But maybe thats just my experience with skaven.

2d6
29-03-2008, 22:17
I'd actually push the new HE into the "Strong category." At 2,000 points, you can have two dragons. There's no other army that can cram two big beasties that size into that size list.

Figure on, a Prince on Star Dragon, a Mage on Sun Dragon (aka Dragon Mage), which is your lord and three different hero slots (because the dragons count as heroes). That's all your slots, true, but still. Two dragons is lot of "killy."

I say medium.
The last sun dragon I saw got driven off and killed by 12 marauders, 2 dragons does not a herohammer make.

superknijn
29-03-2008, 22:24
I beg to differ. Any army containing two dragon-mounted Heroes (of which one probably is a Lord), is a de facto herohammer army, as half the armies points are tied up in them.

Dark Elves can Herohammer too, but only in any serious ay with the use of Special Characters. (Malekith's just sick)

Lordmonkey
29-03-2008, 22:45
Hmm... with Vampire Counts...

Lord: Vampire Lord, Zombie Dragon, Extra Level, Red Fury, Walking Death, Ghoulkin, Wristband of Black Gold, Dread Lance - 720

Hero: Vampire, Avatar of Death, Infinite Hatred, The Hand of Dust - 200

Hero: Vampire, Master of the Black Arts, The Book of Arkhan, Summon Ghouls - 200

Hero: Wight King, Sword of Kings, Barded Skeletal Steed, The Gem of Blood - 145

Total: 1265

Core: 15 Ghouls, Ghast - 128

Core: 15 Ghouls, Ghast - 128

Core: 15 Ghouls, Ghast - 128

Total: 384

Special: 11 Black Knights, Command, Banner of the Barrows - 349

Total: 349

Grand Total: 1998

Power Dice: 9
Dispel Dice: 6

Hammer forth to get all the characters into combat as fast as possible. Vampires provide both magic and combat power, so 3 of them is a good number and they keep the army marching. Half of the army can be in combat with the enemy on turn two (with the odd vanhel's for good measure!). Use speed, hitting power and let the characters win the game!

Chicago Slim
29-03-2008, 22:45
I think High Elves have the versatility to choose whether to be Strong or Moderate in their hero outlay (frankly, this is true of any Stong hero army, since you can always underproduce, or bring some fighting and some anti-magic...)

I have a 3000 point high elf army with two Lords, each armed with a longbow that hits like a bolt thrower. One is a scout, and the other is mounted on an eagle: the idea is to drop enfilading bolt-thrower fire, hitting on a 2+, every turn, while dancing around the enemy and avoiding getting charged.

The fact that High Elves can bring a lot of character-driven heat, through a variety of methods, pushes them in my mind to the High-level Herohammer army list.

Here's a summary of their options:
Shooting (as I've outlined)
Magic (not as gruesome as some Magic-heavy armies, but solidly respectable moderate-to-high if they go all magic)
Close combat: Prince on Star Dragon with Star Lance + 2 fighting Commanders including a BSB with the Battle Banner for +d6 CR,

Yeah, I don't think of the "2-dragons in 2K" list as very fighty, because let's face it, the Dragon Mage will NEVER successfully cast Flaming Sword... and that Battle Banner is too gruesome to pass up...

Chicago Slim
29-03-2008, 22:49
On another army, Chaos Mortals is obviously a strong herohammer army, but what about Daemons or Beastmen?

I'd argue that Daemons aren't as hero-driven, simply because the Daemonic characters all take an extra slot, so you can't bring as many of them... Yes, bringing a Greater Daemon and an Exalted Daemon typically is a lot to deal with (and 50% of your points), but there's just SO many answers to those Daemons...

Beasts characters are clearly less powerful than Mortals, though I think there's something to be said for their combat-heavy list, led by a Doombull or Shaggoth, with a mix of Wargors and Brays (with Bear's Anger, of course...)

Longrunripper
30-03-2008, 01:10
I played my first game of Fantasy a few weeks back (from mostly playing 40k) using a high elf list.
My Dragon Mage absolutely savaged my opponent. Must have dusted 5 squads (of beastmen) from Terror and Fire blasts/balls. And he did successfully cast Flaming sword :p although i cant remember if i ever got to use it.

kris.sherriff
30-03-2008, 11:51
Empire weak at herohammer?

I have a Mr Franz on dragon, Mr Schwarzhelm and a Mr Helborg who would like to dissagree with you good sir!

Kris

xragg
31-03-2008, 04:57
I see your 2 high elf dragons and raise you with a lord on a forest dragon and 2 Treeman.

Frankly
31-03-2008, 05:23
We'll start by defining herohammer: Herohammer is any army built with the maximum number of characters allowed. IMO, all armies are good at it to some degree, just differently. for example, my Tzeentch chaos army is good at it because that Lord on a dragon, flanked by a pair of aspiring champions, can fight their way through mostly anything, if I maneuvre it right. Dogs of War also do herohammer very well because they can max out their character choices for under 400 points in a 2k game.

We can split herohammer armies into three categories: strong, moderate and weak. Strong Herohammer armies are armies like Chaos, Vampires, and such, which use the characters as the main killyness of the army. In these armies you are relying on your characters to provide a significant number of kills, and in some cases, the majority of kills.

Moderate Herohammer armies are armies like High elves or Wood Elves, where you can expect your heroes to do a lot, but they won't form the core of your fighting force.

Weak Herohammer armies are armies like Skaven or Empire. In these armies, heroes will never be the main fighting force, but are good for a completely different reason: they're cheap! you've selected your army, and you've got 90 poitns left over. why not buy a hero with armor and shield? these are the armies where you can easily afford to max out heroes without detracting too much from your model count.

of course we also need to divide this into magic and fighty and mixed ...

Your thoughts?

I think it comes down to how much the maxed out hero's dominate the game. For example Vampire lord + hero's can totally control phases of the game. It's thats control your characters bring to the table top thats important, not just how many kills they cause, but how well they win the game for you.

Another example is that my Southlands Lizardmen armylist used to totally control both my and the opponents magic phase which was the only real threat to my skink horde. This let my skink units run wild and dominate games through my movement and shooting phases. My hero's were totally key to winning games through supporting the list.

Aurellis
31-03-2008, 12:22
I think Dark Elves would also be placed into the Strong category.

Cheap Dragon lords, powerful highborns, and powerful cheap special characters (Shadowblade, Kouran, Tullaris)

winkypinky
31-03-2008, 15:14
I thought hero hammer was defined in this way:

Big guy on big thing.
+ some fanboys who cheer on him, while he kick the crap out of everything.

Not:

4 Hero choices in 2k. That is no were near being hero-hammer'ish.

Herohammer is when you have 1! guy who CAN fight the entire battle on his own. Not 4 guys who are good at summoning things to fight for them. Or 4 guys riding around together with a lot of other guys on ponies. (2 guys on dragons could maybe be hero hammer'ish but I dont think it is, explained later)

It is callled Hero-hammer for a reason not Heroes-hammer.

The only races that are good at hero hammer is Chaos and Lizardmen in my oppinion honestly. They are the only armies have guys that can actually win a battle alone. (Tzeentch lord on D4rGoN, or Lord Kroak)

DoW do herohammer well? How? 4 hero'es for under 400 points? Then a 4 Ng-Boss army would be the most uber all powerfull hero-hammer army ever? No.
DoW do not have a single powerfull and ridicilous expensive hero choice. Making them very very very poor at hero-hammer. (and no Asarnil is not powerfull, he just have a dragon, if Asarnil had Archaon gear and stats he would be powerfull)

winkypinky
31-03-2008, 15:16
I'd actually push the new HE into the "Strong category." At 2,000 points, you can have two dragons. There's no other army that can cram two big beasties that size into that size list.


1 Old-Blood on carnosaur
1 Asarnil
1 Cow.
= 3 big dragon sized beasts in 2k.

Mercules
31-03-2008, 15:19
I thought Hero-hammer was defined as:

The majority of your points are spent on characters who do most of the killing and/or control the battle.

JonnyTHM
31-03-2008, 15:23
Hmm... with Vampire Counts...

Lord: Vampire Lord, Zombie Dragon, Extra Level, Red Fury, Walking Death, Ghoulkin, Wristband of Black Gold, Dread Lance - 720

Hero: Vampire, Avatar of Death, Infinite Hatred, The Hand of Dust - 200

Hero: Vampire, Master of the Black Arts, The Book of Arkhan, Summon Ghouls - 200

Hero: Wight King, Sword of Kings, Barded Skeletal Steed, The Gem of Blood - 145

Total: 1265

Core: 15 Ghouls, Ghast - 128

Core: 15 Ghouls, Ghast - 128

Core: 15 Ghouls, Ghast - 128

Total: 384

Special: 11 Black Knights, Command, Banner of the Barrows - 349

Total: 349

Grand Total: 1998

Power Dice: 9
Dispel Dice: 6

Hammer forth to get all the characters into combat as fast as possible. Vampires provide both magic and combat power, so 3 of them is a good number and they keep the army marching. Half of the army can be in combat with the enemy on turn two (with the odd vanhel's for good measure!). Use speed, hitting power and let the characters win the game!


Zombie dragons still use up a hero choice...

The Red Scourge
04-04-2008, 05:22
Well.. I do a lot of "herohammering".

Playing a mortal tzeentch army, means i usually sink just about 5/8ths of my points into characters and experimenting with a dragon hasn't made it any less expensive :angel:

Yet I shudder in fear of the mighty empire armies, as I know, that somewhere out there hidden in the ranks hides a Warrior Priest with Van Helstrums Speculum with a point cost of almost nothing and ready to take out 800 pts of dragon general.

It's never happened though, but I know that someday they'll meet and tears will be shed :cries:

Garg Foecrusher
04-04-2008, 05:42
The ogres can compete for the Strong Herohammer I think, with the Tyrant. Can even get that guy up to s10 or t7. And he isn't too expensive, only 300-ish points.
A tyrant with a Tenderiser (s7, d3 wounds), and t6 (Mawseeker and Jade Lion) costs only 290 or 300 points IIRC, and he can dish out a lot of pain

zerachiel
12-04-2008, 05:31
Yet I shudder in fear of the mighty empire armies, as I know, that somewhere out there hidden in the ranks hides a Warrior Priest with Van Helstrums Speculum with a point cost of almost nothing and ready to take out 800 pts of dragon general.

Funny you should mention that, because I've a feeling Van Horstmann's Speculum was made by one Egrimm Van Horstmann, Favoured of Tzeentch. :P

While Empire may not be able to Herohammer the hell out of things with just their generic characters, I sure wish I could get more Heroes... Between a Pegasus Captain, a BSB, aforementioned Priest with Speculum, and the 2 Level 2 Battle Wizards that keep you from getting mauled in the Magic phase, I WANT to spend more points on my characters...

the_raptor
12-04-2008, 10:21
We'll start by defining herohammer: Herohammer is any army built with the maximum number of characters allowed.

No it isn't, that is a terrible definition. Some armies characters can dominate with less then max characters, and some can't do squat with full character complement. So bringing in the negative connotation of "herohammer" for any army with full character slots, is just silly. It is the same as calling every Empire army cheese just because of Gun lines with stonks and the pope mobile.

Please go play 3rd-5th edition to understand what Herohammer was (or 2nd ed 40k, which was ridiculously herohammer). Herohammer was when the rank and file just got bought along so the enemy heroes had something to massacre.

Pretty much every army I design has full character slots, because for most tournament armies you need at least two combat chars, a BSB and some magic defence.